On Dec 10, 2022, at 4:30 PM, mike@dennz.com via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:
dennz https://forum.lpsf.org/u/dennz
December 11
That may be Chris….what does it have to do with the discussion at hand about LPSF organizational cooperation, management and leadership?
Michael Denny
Libertarian Party of San Francisco www.LPSF.org http://www.lpsf.org/http://www.lpsf.org/ http://www.lpsf.org/
No On Prop A www.badsfbonds.blogspot.com http://www.badsfbonds.blogspot.com/http://www.badsfbonds.blogspot.com/ http://www.badsfbonds.blogspot.com/
www.DennyForMayor.com http://www.dennyformayor.com/http://www.dennyformayor.com/ http://www.dennyformayor.com/ - 2002-2003
(415) 608-0269
mike@Dennz.com mailto:mike@Dennz.commailto:mike@Dennz.com mailto:mike@Dennz.com··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/moderate-vs-progressive/21746/10
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In Reply To
dennz https://forum.lpsf.org/u/dennz
December 10
Thank you Greg….agreed. And for you Chris. The Libertarian party was dead after many of our former leaders moved en-mass to Georgia in an early version of the “free-state movement” early 1990’s. Starchild single-handedly revived the party after years of dormancy. He is a tireless campaigner and ad…
Previous Replies
CDMendes https://forum.lpsf.org/u/cdmendes
December 10
I can tell all of you that Starchild is unorganized and doesn’t care about the Libertarian Party. He cares about the liberty movement.
YouTube https://www.youtube.com/embed/5fwAs96KHZc?autoplay=1&feature=oembed&wmode=opaque
Chris Mendes
dennz https://forum.lpsf.org/u/dennz
December 10
Thank you Greg….agreed.
And for you Chris.
The Libertarian party was dead after many of our former leaders moved en-mass to Georgia in an early version of the “free-state movement” early 1990’s. Starchild single-handedly revived the party after years of dormancy. He is a tireless campaigner and advocate for Liberty. As a traditional Catholic I’m sympathetic to your feeling self-conscious around Starchild’s unconventional personal behavior and concerned about how it might reflect on us as a party with a certain demographic. But when it comes to reflecting and advocating for Liberty, he is right more often than not in my view. And he has probably gotten more votes and more name recognition than any other Libertarian in San Francisco. You might not like it, but P.T. Barnum said, “There’s no such thing as bad publicity,” which is almost as good as Oscar Wilde’s version, who put it like this: “There’s only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about.”
Every person and organization comes with a past. Anyone who wants to lead the LPSF must understand and accept who we are. And be willing to work with what it is in its current form to move it forward. We are a small organization working with volunteers. While we welcome new people interested in us, a leader will have to accept who we are and work with it.
I’m not able to be more than an advisor now after being an LP activist since 1980. This is the best advice I can offer. Take it or leave it.
Michael Denny
Libertarian Party of San Francisco www.LPSF.org http://www.lpsf.org/http://www.lpsf.org/ http://www.lpsf.org/
No On Prop A www.badsfbonds.blogspot.com http://www.badsfbonds.blogspot.com/http://www.badsfbonds.blogspot.com/ http://www.badsfbonds.blogspot.com/
www.DennyForMayor.com http://www.dennyformayor.com/http://www.dennyformayor.com/ http://www.dennyformayor.com/ - 2002-2003
(415) 608-0269
mike@Dennz.com mailto:mike@Dennz.commailto:mike@Dennz.com mailto:mike@Dennz.com··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/moderate-vs-progressive/21746/8
greg https://forum.lpsf.org/u/greg
December 9
Chris,
I’ve known Starchild for a few years now and I can say without hesitation that he is one of the most devoted, thoughtful, and effective freedom advocates I’ve ever had the pleasure of getting to know. If you think he is not “libertarian” in every rationally conceivable sense of the word, then I recommend you search for a deeper understanding of libertarianism yourself. From there, you can evaluate whether you are truly as uncomfortable being associated with libertarians as your recent messages seem to suggest.
My two cents.
Greg
Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
December 8
CDMendes Libertarian Party of San Francisco https://forum.lpsf.org/u/cdmendes
December 8
Hi Starchild,
I’ll try a different format.
All right, fine by me Chris. If interspersing my responses with yours makes it easier for you to read them, consider it done.
Aubrey and Marcy are both former LPSF chairs and longtime activists.
-great. no one under 40 know who they are and they are such Libertarians that they don’t go to LPSF meetings because it’s a waste of their time.
They don’t go to LPSF meetings because they don’t live in San Francisco anymore. (Although Marcy is fairly elderly and may be more or less retired from politics at this point.)
You’re right, I don’t understand what you’re saying. Please spell it out.
-I want you to quit the LP and register as a Democrat.
That’s not going to happen. Even if all the libertarians like myself who care about civil liberties and appealing to people on both sides of the conventional political divide were driven out of the party, all that would ultimately happen is that the LP would lose its unique advantage in American politics and become another marginalized, right-wing party like the Constitution Party. Is that what you want?
You want to enhance our “understanding” of the “zeitgeist” in which “moderates” in SF (read: more establishment as opposed to progressive Democrats) have made some recent gains, toward what end?
-there were 5 people at the last LPSF meeting. 1 is running for president, 1 lives in DC, 2 are you and me and 1 was someone who said they’re more interested in their faith but wanted to show up to see Mike ter Maat. there’s 3000+ registered Libertarians in SF yet none of them go to meetings. Why register then?
Why are you asking me? I do go to meetings. Do you honestly think I’m the reason all those other registered Libertarians don’t go to meetings? If so, I’m sorry, but I think that’s absurd and you don’t have a clue.
So that we can emulate their statist positions and water down our consistent adherence to the Non-Aggression Principle and defense of individual rights?
-wtf? the democrats are funding the war in Ukraine. wtf?
The funding of the war in Ukraine has very, very little to do with local politics here in San Francisco. But to the extent SF Democrats have views or influence on that, I think you’ll find the “moderates” generally more keen to send military aid to the Ukrainian government than the “progressives” who are more likely to consistently oppose U.S. government militarism.
You say it’s your position not to support any Democrat. How about Republicans? What do you think of would-be LP presidential candidate Dave Smith recently endorsing a Republican for U.S. Senate in Arizona, in a race in which (unlike John Hamasaki’s non-partisan race) there WAS a Libertarian running, on the LP ticket? Is Dave Smith now someone you “can’t work with”? Or does his not wearing drag make him OK in your book? You don’t find his long podcast commentaries too “verbose”?
-tu quoque fallacy. i don’t think that any Libertarian should endorse other parties, republican or democrat or green or whatever.
So does that mean you can’t work with him, want him to re-register as a Republican, etc.? Have you spoken out about it? Or do you have a double standard when it comes to support for Republicans, or criticizing darlings of the Mises Caucus?
i don’t know why you brought up dave smith as being verbose.
I didn’t call him verbose. I brought him up to see how you feel about him because you called me verbose, and I suspect he talks a lot more than I do!
he’s a comedian.
Yes, he uses humor. So does Vermin Supreme.
you’re verbose because you add unnecessary discussion to any topic so that nothing ever gets done.
Do you realize that the public’s clamor to “do something!, do something!” any time there’s a perceived need or crisis has a lot to do with the growth of government? Politicians hear that kind of impatience from the public, and respond by doing something – usually something bad – to make it look like they are being active and not just sitting around talking. Historically this desire for action contributed to the rise of fascism. Impatience in politics is generally not our friend.
for example, you wrote a great letter to appeal to Libertarians. have you posted it anywhere? no, it was pure virtue signaling.
Writing the letter was in fact doing something, not just discussing. Saying I wrote it to engage in “virtue signaling” while at the same time criticizing me for not sharing it more is self-contradictory and makes no sense.
The letter wasn’t written to be posted online, but to be sent as outreach to registered Libertarians. We haven’t sent it out yet because part of the idea was to use it to invite people to a social, which has not been scheduled.
I post plenty of other pro-freedom stuff online to an audience of both libertarians and non-libertarians. Do you?
I don’t know whether you understand what I’m saying or not either, because you apparently can’t be bothered to read more than a few short paragraphs at most. With that kind of self-imposed limitation, it seems to me that your chances of understanding the local zeitgeist (or understanding libertarian critiques of it, for that matter) are significantly diminished.
-i understand what your saying. i don’t believe that you are a Libertarian. i believe you’ve taken the LP as a marketing ploy for your persona. i’ll ask you a serious question:
How are you different from Vermin Supreme? because i don’t see a difference.
Your premise here appears to be that Vermin Supreme isn’t helping the cause of freedom. That’s an unsupported premise with which I strongly disagree. He has brought new people into the movement, raised money for the LP, etc. He could do even more for us if more Libertarians had the imagination and open-mindedness to see how his satire and performance art can attract new folks we wouldn’t reach otherwise, and advance the libertarian cause. But their lack of vision is not his fault.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/moderate-vs-progressive/21746/6
CDMendes https://forum.lpsf.org/u/cdmendes
December 8
Hi Starchild,
I’ll try a different format.
Aubrey and Marcy are both former LPSF chairs and longtime activists.
-great. no one under 40 know who they are and they are such Libertarians that they don’t go to LPSF meetings because it’s a waste of their time.
You’re right, I don’t understand what you’re saying. Please spell it out.
-I want you to quit the LP and register as a Democrat.
You want to enhance our “understanding” of the “zeitgeist” in which “moderates” in SF (read: more establishment as opposed to progressive Democrats) have made some recent gains, toward what end?
-there were 5 people at the last LPSF meeting. 1 is running for president, 1 lives in DC, 2 are you and me and 1 was someone who said they’re more interested in their faith but wanted to show up to see Mike ter Maat. there’s 3000+ registered Libertarians in SF yet none of them go to meetings. Why register then?
So that we can emulate their statist positions and water down our consistent adherence to the Non-Aggression Principle and defense of individual rights?
-wtf? the democrats are funding the war in Ukraine. wtf?
You say it’s your position not to support any Democrat. How about Republicans? What do you think of would-be LP presidential candidate Dave Smith recently endorsing a Republican for U.S. Senate in Arizona, in a race in which (unlike John Hamasaki’s non-partisan race) there WAS a Libertarian running, on the LP ticket? Is Dave Smith now someone you “can’t work with”? Or does his not wearing drag make him OK in your book? You don’t find his long podcast commentaries too “verbose”?
-tu quoque fallacy. i don’t think that any Libertarian should endorse other parties, republican or democrat or green or whatever. i don’t know why you brought up dave smith as being verbose. he’s a comedian. you’re verbose because you add unnecessary discussion to any topic so that nothing ever gets done. for example, you wrote a great letter to appeal to Libertarians. have you posted it anywhere? no, it was pure virtue signaling.
I don’t know whether you understand what I’m saying or not either, because you apparently can’t be bothered to read more than a few short paragraphs at most. With that kind of self-imposed limitation, it seems to me that your chances of understanding the local zeitgeist (or understanding libertarian critiques of it, for that matter) are significantly diminished.
-i understand what your saying. i don’t believe that you are a Libertarian. i believe you’ve taken the LP as a marketing ploy for your persona. i’ll ask you a serious question:
How are you different from Vermin Supreme? because i don’t see a difference.
Chris Mendes
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