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It's true that many people complain about things after the fact. In their defense however, it's only fair to point out that (1) they rarely have power to stop a government at the time of the action, and (2) there are many governments doing many things which are wrong. It's not always clear at the time something is done how bad the results will be, and defenders of liberty only have so much time and energy to divide among all the things governments are doing wrong.
But my original question was, why don't you distinguish between individual Americans and the U.S. government? Despite the "IMU" slogan, I'm sure you don't really think they are one and the same. As Michael Edelstein points out, if that were true then it would be reasonable to put individuals like yourself and myself on trial for murder, robbery, etc., since governments have clearly done these things in our name.
We can avoid this dilemma by making it clear that governments are *not* "us," and that we are responsible for our own actions, just as committing crimes in the name of "the people," without those peoples' consent, by means of coercion against them, do not share responsibility with their victims, but are themselves fully responsible for their actions.
Love & liberty,
<<< starchild >>>
Hi Eric,
I can see you are not a believer in "better late than never"! I
stand guilty before you of not speaking up when the U.S. invaded
Iraq, but I feel it is better to make amends for my inaction now than
never. So, I protest.
Marcy
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "eric dupree"
<dupreeconsults@...> wrote:
Many silently allow the gov to do what they've been doing.Then
complain
about what was done and then protest which should have come much
earlier!
From: Starchild
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: "We the People," collective guilt, and
Original Sin
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 02:51:50 -0800I'm sorry Eric, I don't understand your response.
<<< starchild >>>
> When we protest after the fact its "we the people"...
>> From: Starchild <sfdreamer@...>
>> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: "We the People," collective guilt,
and
>> Original Sin
>> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 02:18:57 -0800
>>
>>
>> Eric,
>>
>> You correctly distinguish between people in the Middle East,
and
>> the regimes that claim jurisdiction over them ("Now I'm not
saying
>> the countries itself"). If this is a valid distinction, isn't
>> there a similarly valid distinction to be made between
individual
>> Americans, and the U.S. government? Elsewhere in the same
>> paragraph, you're still saying "we" when you're obviously
>> referring to the U.S. government.
>>
>> Love & liberty,
>> <<< starchild >>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Desert Storm for one. We left and afterwards and still was
>>> attacked by Middle Easterners.
>>> Now I'm not saying the countries itself. Which makes these
>>> battles more difficult. We must root out threats of
individuals
>>> within those nations.
>>> We will rule nations who's citizens attack us. Americans must
go
>>> in and find those that'll make us another Israel suicide (be)
>>> bombed > land.
>>> Its a harsh lesson for countries to except, "thou Kingdom
come,
>>> thou will be done."
>>> Everyone in the world aren't peace activist. So we have the
Peace
>>> Corps/Vista and the Marine Corps. which are my alma maters.
>>>
>>>> From: "Mike Denny" <mike@...>
>>>> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>>>> Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: "We the People," collective
>>> guilt, and Original Sin
>>>> Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 21:01:41 -0800
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Eric,
>>>>
>>>> Could you please be specific about where the US has withdrawn
>>>> troops from around the world? I'm not aware of them and see
more
>>>> troops and countries than less.
>>>>
>>>> After that, could you please directly connect the troop
withdrawals
>>>> you mentioned to our being "attacked"?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Eric...looking forward to hearing from you.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>>>> [mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eric
dupree
>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 8:49 PM
>>>> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: "We the People," collective
guilt,
>>>> and Original Sin
>>>>
>>>> We tried that and was attacked?
>>>>> From: dredelstein@...
>>>>> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: "We the People," collective
>>>>> guilt, and Original Sin
>>>>> Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 21:10:33 -0800
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Eric,
>>>>>
>>>>> My answer: in response to 911, withdraw all US troops from
>>> around the globe.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best, Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: eric dupree
>>>>> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 7:00 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: "We the People," collective
>>>>> guilt, and Original Sin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, 911, 911, 911! War is hell!
>>>>> I feel for the people but the gov had to be dealt with.
>>>>> Just like the British. The Iraqi people weren't wrong but
their
>>>>> leader/s had us in the position of feeling threaten and
needed
to
>>>>> be removed.
>>>>> What would others have done in the wake? Everytime I ask the
>>>>> question it doesn't get answered...
>>>>>
>>>>> At some point our gov must adhere to "to provide for the
common
>>>>> defense!" or contest that portion of the constitution?
>>>>>> From: dredelstein@...
>>>>>> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: "We the People,"
collective >
>>>>> guilt, and Original Sin
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:37:54 -0800
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If "we" have been bombing Iraq, then "we" better turn
ourselves
>>>>>> in. "We" are mass murderers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Count me out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best, Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Starchild
>>>>>> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 7:36 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: "We the People,"
collective >
>>>>> guilt, and Original Sin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eric,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I approve of the American Revolution in retrospect, just
as I
>
>>>>> approve of many historical events, but I can't claim it as
"mine"
>>>>>> or "ours" any more than the signing of the Magna Carta was
>>>>> "mine" > or "ours." It wasn't my revolution, I wasn't alive
in
>>>>> the late > 1700s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Love & liberty,
>>>>>> <<< starchild >>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regardless, not just who votes and or protest, by not
Cyprus
>>>>>> Attuck'in (first ti die for our revolution) we're allowing
too
>>>>>> much to accur!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "Amarcy D. Berry"
>>>>>> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>> Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: "We the People," collective
>>>>> guilt, > and Original Sin
>>>>>> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:41:37 -0000
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Starchild,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yup, I am with you on pretty much all counts on your e-
mail;
>>>>>> except
>>>>>> for the last sentence, since you have no control over
Original
>>>>>> Sin,
>>>>>> but you do have control over the scum you put in office.
(If
your
>>>>>> next question is who is "you", yup again, you are right, my
reply
>>>>>> would be, it's We the People!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marcy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Starchild <sfdreamer@>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marcy & Eric,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Who are "We the People" in your messages below who "put
the
>>>>>> scums in
>>>>>>> office" and "got us into this war?" Are you including only
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> eligible to vote, when apportioning blame for who holds
>>>>>>> political
>>>>>>> power? That would imply that persons under 18 and many
others
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>> *not*
>>>>>>> part of "We the People."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course one can easily have more impact on the political
>>>>>> process by
>>>>>>> engaging in Internet activism, getting a letter published
in
the
>>>>>> paper,
>>>>>>> or so forth, than by voting. As a matter of fact, one
doesn't
>>>>>>> even
>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> to reside in the United States or be a U.S. citizen in
order
to
>>>>>> have a
>>>>>>> greater effect on U.S. politics than the average American
voter.
>>>>>> So
>>>>>>> then, is the entire world to blame for the Republicrats?
Or
only
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> people with enough education, resources and free time to
be
>>>>>> politically
>>>>>>> active? Then again, a good many of the people lacking in
>>>>>> knowledge,
>>>>>>> time or resources might have had these things in abundance
had
>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> made different choices, so that doesn't get all those
>>>>>>> "foreigners"
>>>>>> born
>>>>>>> into decent circumstances off the hook so easily.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By a similar standard, of course, anyone who had the
ability
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> intervene in a positive way in the life of a child even
slightly
>>>>>> (being
>>>>>>> friendly to a tot when encountering him on the street with
his
>>>>>> parents,
>>>>>>> for example), but didn't, bears part of the responsibility
when
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> kid, as a result of a troubled childhood where he didn't
get
>>>>>> enough
>>>>>>> positivity, later goes out and robs a convenience store.
>>>>>> Clearly "We
>>>>>>> the People" are to blame for all these shootings,
muggings,
and
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> that one reads about in the media, since these things
happened
>>>>>> in "our"
>>>>>>> society and any of us could have done something more to
prevent
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> circumstances leading up to them than we did. As a matter
of
>>>>>>> fact,
>>>>>> even
>>>>>>> if you were a model parent , you're still equally
responsible
as
>>>>>> part
>>>>>>> of "We the People" when it comes to doling out the blame.
And
if
>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>> not a parent, then it's still your fault for not having
kids,
>>>>>>> since
>>>>>> if
>>>>>>> you'd had good kids, they could have helped exert positive
peer
>>>>>>> pressure on the troubled ones.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're with me on all that, right? After all, Libertarians
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> (apparently, in your view) no less responsible for Bush
and
the
>>>>>> current
>>>>>>> members of Congress being elected as were those who
actively
>>>>>> supported
>>>>>>> them, since we're just as much a part of "We the People."
>>>>>> Individual
>>>>>>> behavior and consent have nothing to do with our
>>>>>> responsibility/guilt
>>>>>>> -- it's an automatic thing, kind of like Original Sin.
Right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Love & liberty,
>>>>>>> <<< starchild >>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here, here Marcy!
>>>>>>>>> From: "Amarcy D. Berry" <amarcyb@>
>>>>>>>>> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: I wanna rouse some rabble! -
STOP
>>>>>> THE
>>>>>>>> WAR RALLY
>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 21:35:41 -0000
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you, Eric. For years now, I have been a lonely
voice
on
>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> List communicating to my fellow Libertarians my belief
that
>>>>>> 1) "We
>>>>>>>>> the People" put the scums in office that cause so much
>>>>>>>>> chagrin;
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> 2) As Eric stated so well: better to have public support
than
>>>>>> mere
>>>>>>>>> attention.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thus, SFTW Coalition hopes to add its voice to the other
>>>>>> numerous
>>>>>>>>> rally's that are taking place throughout the country,
and
>>>>>>>>> state
>>>>>>>>> simply and peacefully that we are encouraging our
elected
>>>>>>>>> representatives to stop the war by stopping its funding.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Marcy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "eric dupree"
>>>>>>>>> <dupreeconsults@> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah and the house flags should go up in flames also!
And
the
>>>>>> Cali
>>>>>>>>> flag and all the state flag the voted in the prez.
>>>>>>>>>> We are more than just a presidential country...Bush did
not
>>>>>> get us
>>>>>>>>> into this war. We the people did and now are shucking
the
>>>>>>>>> blame?
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Starchild <sfdreamer@>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: lpsf-discuss@...m
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: I wanna rouse some
rabble! -
>>>>>> STOP
>>>>>>>>> THE WAR RALLY
>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 00:53:52 -0800
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about burning a big flag -- not the American
flag,
>>>>>> but a
>>>>>>>>> flag
>>>>>>>>>>> bearing the presidential seal? I think that would
send an
>
>>>>>>>>>> appropriate message, and get some media attention,
without
>>>>>> the >
>>>>>>>>>> misguided backlash from some quarters that might greet
the
>>>>>>>>> burning
>>>>>>>>>>> of "Old Glory," or the implicit message of violence of
>>>>>> burning
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> would-be king in effigy.
>>>>>>>>>>>> By the way, I also previously raised the idea of
having
a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Libertarian MC (Marc Joffe?) for the event to guarantee
the
>>>>>>>>>> LP
>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>> visibility there, but don't recall seeing any
responses
to
>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> suggestion. What do those involved in planning the
rally
>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> about these ideas?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Love & liberty,
>>>>>>>>>>> <<< starchild >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ooops my first message got botched up; so here goes
>>>>>> again.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Ron,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the suggestion of slash and burn!
However,
I
>>>>>>>>> think the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stop Funding the War Coalition voted from the start
to
>>>>>> have a
>>>>>>>>>>>> peaceful rally, such as "the people peaceably to
>>>>>> assemble, and
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> petition the government for a redress of
grievances." I
>>>>>>>>> supposed the
>>>>>>>>>>>> idea is to walk the walk; if you call for peace, it
would
>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>>> to me
>>>>>>>>>>>> strange to do it through any kind of violence. But,
>>>>>> that's just
>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>> opinion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Marcy
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Amarcy D.
Berry"
>>>>>>>>> <amarcyb@>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty
>>>>>>>> <tradergroupe@>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Everyone;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those of you involved in the Stop The War
Rally -
>>>>>>>>> here's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> forwarded message from Aster Francesca with a
thought
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> consideration as the capper for the Stop The War
Rally
>>>>>> event
>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Burn his royal highness King George the II in
>>>>>> effigy!!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That'll certainly get the attention of the FBI and
>>>>>> Homeland
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Security and Secret Service Presidential Protection
>>>>>> Detail
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Government Office Building Polizei - let the news
media
>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> advance what you are planning on doing - as this is
the
>>>>>> type
>>>>>>>>> of eye
>>>>>>>>>>>>> candy they just love for the in-depth 10 second news
>>>>>> bites
>>>>>>>>> for 5-6-
>>>>>>>>>>>> 7-
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 9-10-11.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BTW: Going to have a band there playing a dirge or
at
>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> trumpeter playing Taps for all the fallen dead both
>>>>>> military
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> civilian? How about a dragon dance to scare away the
>>>>>> evils of
>>>>>>>>> war
>>>>>>>>>>>>> followed by the traditional firecracker ball to
really
>>>>>> blast
>>>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> demons of war?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BTW: Will there be lots of colorful banners?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ron Getty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SF Libertarian
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Aster Francesca <ms_shiris@>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Salon_Liberty@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 7:27:58 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: {Salon Liberty} I wanna rouse some rabble!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A very interesting peice from Charles Johnson's
site
>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> American Revolution:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rad Geek People's Daily 2007-02-24 – Over My Shoulder #32: Mark Kurlansky on the Revolution before the Revolutionary War, from Nonviolence: Twenty-Five Lessons from the History of a Dangerous Idea
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey, why doesn't someone (say, the anti-war
movement)
>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>> together
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and very publically hang George II* in effigy-
perhaps
>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> deliberately Colonial style?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If your not-quite-voiced answer is: "I'm afraid
what
>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> happen
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to me if I did so", then you have discovered the
reason
>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>> needs
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to do it, before your worried fear is certain fact.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many, many people I know from friends to
colleagues to
>>>>>>>>> clients to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> random people I meet in the supermarket are
beginning
to
>>>>>>>>> conclude
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they truly do need to worry. All of these people
would
>>>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the meaning of a public burning instantly and would
all
>>>>>> come
>>>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from hearing of one that much more consciously
radical.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know some of you are involved in the anti-war
>>>>>> movement.
>>>>>>>>> Has
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone thought of this?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> love and strife,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aster Francesca {)(*)(}
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Or why don'twe getinthe habit of protesting I
>>>>>> wannother
>>>>>>>>>>>> officials
>>>>>>>>>>>>> by beheading them? DEA and Homeland Security
officials
>>>>>> come
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind. Or local police commisioners.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't sex workers publically get together and
>>>>>> declare
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> cops
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the feds the occupying army there are? Jailed
>>>>>> prostitutes
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> patriarchy's political prisoners. They're arresting
us
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> killing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> us, and we protest by running ballot initiatives,
>>>>>> throwing
>>>>>>>>> parties,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and having tea with politicians. What gives with
that?
>>>>>> We
>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> declaring people who would ruin lives for practicing
>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> living
>>>>>>>>>>>>> steppe raiders and tyrants beyond the boundaries of
>>>>>>>>> civilisation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Freude, schöner Götterfunken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tochter aus Elysium,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wir betreten feuertrunken,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deine Zauber binden wieder
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Was die Mode streng geteilt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alle Menschen werden Brüder
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email ms_shiris@
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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