Dear Starchild,
"Blessed are the Peacemakers...." Just a personal note of thanks
from me.
Regards,
Marcy
I spoke with Angela also, and she expressed the opinion that
when she
voted that she was getting the best deal she could, and that a $99
registration fee was better than a $150 registration fee. While I
question the wisdom of that approach, I do not question her good
intentions. I think she is under a lot of stress right now, and
might
not have said the things she said at another time, so I hope folks
will
pardon her. Speaking of forgiveness, mistress Aster, please pardon
me
if I have been getting too uppity.
Love & liberty,
<<< starchild >>>
> Ron,
>
> No thank you, at least at the moment. Please understand that my
> health isn't the best and going out to Sunset for a meeting isn't
the
> easiest thing for me- plus I need to stay at home so I don't miss
> business. As for Starchild... look, I'm not feeling so hot
towards him
> right now either, but please don't try to divide and conquer*.Â
After
> talking to Angela I think he and I were both wrong on
the specifics of
> the $99 thing but I still share his basic sentiments on the
principles
> involved.
>
> But I just need to figure out if I think that the problem with
the
> Libertarian Party, since I don't think it's the 'libertarian', is
the
> 'Party'. I need time to think alone.
>
> love and strife,
>
> Lady Aster <image.tiff>{)(*)(}
>
> *to Starchild (and no on else): that's *ahem*, a classic tactic
that
> the PRIVILEGED use to derail the protests of the MARGINALISED
and/or
> OPPRESSED.Â
>
> Freude, schËner GËtterfunken
> Tochter aus Elysium,
> Wir betreten feuertrunken,
> Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!
> Deine Zauber binden wieder
> Was die Mode streng geteilt.
> Alle Menschen werden Br¸der
> Wo dein sanfter Fl¸gel weilt.
<image.tiff>Â email ms_shiris@... <image.tiff>
>
<image.tiff>
>
> From: Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...>
> Reply-To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Vitriol & **** [was: Re: Actually
this is
> an open letter to the LPC]
> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:13:44 -0700 (PDT)
>
> Dear Lady Aster;
> Â
> Why do you presume another presumption that "Â I'm making no one
happy
> hanging around.". Afterall, this is a (heh heh heh) BIG TENT
PARTY!!!
> and is open to all comers and all thoughts and persuasions.
Change
> come from the inside!!!
>
> Â
>
> At least with yourself we get some erudite concerned points about
> erudite concerned matters which beats the heck reading about
> Starchild's constant whining and kvetching about why aren't we
holding
> LP conventions at nudist centers where the overhead is low and
there's
> no covering things up and it all hangs out so to speak.(heh heh
heh)
>
> Â
>
> Why not try the LPSF meeting this Saturday - THEN - if you don't
like
> what you see or hear - then bail out - throw in the towel - call
it
> quits - pack your baga up and so on. Â
>
> Â
>
> THEN remember way back in Colonial times how if the Founding
Fathers
> had done the same thing you are proposing to do and did not fight
back
> and try to change things and literally put their lives on the
line and
> their necks in the hangman's noose why today we'd have to be
kissing
> Tony Blair's butt and curtseying to Prince Charles and Duchess
Camel.
> Yucky!!
>
> Â
>
> Give it a shot okay???
>
> Â
>
> Ron Getty
>
> SF Libertarian
>
> Â
>
> Â
>
> From: Lady Aster <ms_shiris@...>
> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 3:30:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Vitriol & **** [was: Re: Actually
this is
> an open letter to the LPC]
>
> Ron-
>
> I don't really want to go on about this, but fair's fair:
>
> 1) You're right, I made stupid assumptions about your
background. mea
> culpa
>
> 2) I didnt say you were 'censoring' but 'censuring'- altho' as
you
> know I believe there are non-state form of oppression, do the
> difference isn't quite as huge to me as with most ibertarians-
there
> are ways to push people around that don't involve force. Still,
if I
> carelessly implied you wanted to censor Angela I do apologise..
>
> 3) I do *not* apologise for a similar claim that Marcy was making
> veiled threats to Angela. That's simply true. I do apologise
for
> having any issues I have with her bleed off onto you.
>
> 4) On LPSF meetings... well, I came back from Portland all fired
to
> make a difference in the Party, but I'm rather having second
> thoughts. The immense good will I got from most libertarians
there
> convinced me that the problems with the libertarian movement
isn't
> libertarianism or libertarians but the kind of creatures we get
> running the show. I wanted to get involved to change that.Â
However,
> I'm starting to wonder if the whole heirarchical structure of the
> party necessarily invites the worst to get on top and deters the
best
> from exercising influence. If this is true, the Party as we
know it
> is a lost cause- it's heirarchical and conformist for the same
reason
> all big organisations are heirarchical cand onformist, and the
only
> answer would be to abandon political parties as a means entirely
or at
> least look for totally different kinds of organisations.
>
> I'm not convinced of this idea, but until I think it over I'm
staying
> away from Party business. As such, I'll be staying away from
this
> list for awhile. I'm making no one happy hanging around.
>
> love and strife,
>
> Lady Aster <image.tiff>
>
> {)(*)(}
>
> Freude, schââner Gââtterfunken
> Tochter aus Elysium,
> Wir betreten feuertrunken,
> Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!
> Deine Zauber binden wieder
> Was die Mode streng geteilt.
> Alle Menschen werden Brâºder
> Wo dein sanfter Flâºgel weilt.
<image.tiff>Â email ms_shiris@... <image.tiff>
>
<image.tiff>
>
> From: Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...>
> Reply-To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Vitriol & **** [was: Re: Actually
this is
> an open letter to the LPC]
> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:53:22 -0700 (PDT)
>
> Dear Lady Aster;
> Â
> First of all on Angela's points she was making there are those of
us
> who are not with the Ex Comm or have been to Ex Comm meetings or
State
> or National party conventions or LP business meetings and really
don't
> have a clue or care about as to what she is talking about.
> Â
> Please be advised - It is difficult to commentez vous about her
screed
> unless you have some idea of what it is all about. You presumed
the
> members here would all know what she meant and comment of course
on
> what she had to say about the LP organization or lack thereof.
> Â
> I will not comment on her points because I do not have sufficient
> enough knowledge about what she is referring to - ergo my
silence - as
> for everyone else - they can comment whenever they so choose -
but it
> would be nice if they could provide some perspective as to what
the
> heck it is all about.
> Â
> When I made my comments about the use of profanity it did not say
to
> stop anyone from discussing anything on any topic - it was a
request
> to maintain some level of propriety. Nothing was ever said about
> anything of what was discussed by whom or when and censoring
their
> comments - where the heck you got that from I'll never know.
> Â
> Don't put words in where there were no such words as I said I do
not
> believe in censorship - say what you want anytime you want to
about
> whatever you want - however - profanity it is not needed to
> have discussions whether making it more colorful or not.Â
> Â
> Also our meetings are not very by the book they do follwo an
agenda -
> Â and sometimes - gosh and golly - the language is not very
politic.
> Â
> Why not come to this Saturdays LPSF meeting at Cybelle's Pizza @
9th
> and Irving at 3:00 pm and see for yourself - okay? Then during
the
> 5:00 - 6:00 pizza hour you can spellbind us with your colorful
> language skills - okay?
> Â
> BTW: I spent 4 years in the Navy and I can guarantee I have
forgot
> more colorful language then you will ever know - we can always
trade
> verbiage - and leave everyone else with mouths gaping open like
little
> fishies out of the water as they learn new words of vitriol -
are you
> up to the challenge? Yeah Sure - Unh Hunh! Â Â Â
> Â
> Now get out there and do some random acts of kindness.Â
> Â
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
> From: Lady Aster <ms_shiris@hotmail. com>
> To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 12:13:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Vitriol & **** [was: Re: Actually
this is
> an open letter to the LPC]
>
> Yes there are great works of literature which are very profane
and
> well worth reading and there are great movies which also have
> profanity - HOWEVER - those are read by choice or watched by
choice  -
> I do not believe the members of this group or LPSF are members so
they
> can hear or read profanity and not have a choice because some
member
> chooses to impose their lack of erudition and crassness on the
group.
>
> Ron-
>
> That's illogical. By that logic someone who chooses to mention
the
> Christian God or the Bible on the LPSF list is 'imposing' their
views
> on the rest of us. You can't have a doublt standard for profane
and
> non-profane language. Either anytime anyone mentions anything
not
> strictly about LPSF business they are equally imposing on others,
or
> no one is imposing on others by doing so. The view that profane
> language is unique in this respect is based on a moral intuition
that
> certain words are innately harmful. That is an intuition I
don't
> freakin' share.
>
> I don't think you have any idea how culturally partisan this
looks
> from my side of the table. Dude. Seriously. I get messages
with
> colourful language every day of the way and somehow survive. I
> suspect Angela just also lives with a set of cultural
expectations
> (she's young, lives in West Hollywood) that are different from
yours.Â
> It seems blatantly obvious to me that you are taking your
cultural
> expectations for granted and censuring another party member for
> violating them. This is exactly the kind of reason why I think
> lifestyle issues are important in this party. Manners and
decorum are
> class and cultural markers and an easy means to shut out people
of
> different social groups.
>
> And its ridiculous to equate use of vulgar language with a lack
of
> erudition. Angela is clearly an intelligent and educated person
even
> if she doesn't talk like you. You seem to presume that anyone
with
> education will choose to use their learning to take on 'better'
social
> affectations. Well, I think the confusion of erudition with
class is
> utterly destructive to an authentic love of knowledge. And
refinement
> of speech in the service of eloquence and beauty is a different
> matter entirely from the refinement of speech to spare a
delicate ear.
>
> I note you've all successfully used your dislike of Angela's
style to
> utterly ignore her substance. You *are* nicely proving her
point.Â
> It's precisely like the habit of certain Robert Rules of Order
black
> belts to use the technicalities of formal debate to squelch the
ideas
> of those who don't think by Roberts Rules of Order. I notice
that the
> Sex Workers' Outreach Project, the San Francisco Peoples'
> Organisation, the Harvey Milk Democratic Club manage to function
> wuthout this fetishised heirarchy. I've recently been
attending lots
> of hearings at City Hall and they were less stuffy than this.
>
> That's all. I've vented and said what I think, and now I'm
shutting
> up because it's pointless. Please go back to your by-the-book
> meetings and polite language. Thank you.
>
> love and strife,
>
> Lady Aster <image.tiff>
>
> {)(*)(}
>
> Freude, schâìâner Gâìâtterfunken
> Tochter aus Elysium,
> Wir betreten feuertrunken,
> Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!
> Deine Zauber binden wieder
> Was die Mode streng geteilt.
> Alle Menschen werden Brâüder
> Wo dein sanfter Flâügel weilt.
<image.tiff>Â email ms_shiris@hotmail. com <image.tiff>
>
<image.tiff>
>
> From: Ron Getty <tradergroupe@ yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Vitriol & **** [was: Re: Actually
this is
> an open letter to the LPC]
> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 11:16:39 -0700 (PDT)
>
> Dear Dr. Mike;
> Â
> Au Contraire
> Â
> As a highly skilled expert experienced psychologist I'm certain
you
> can appreciate the fact that while the no-no words used publicly
or in
> e-mails to the groups reflects on the sender and indirectly
effects
> the group. While it is gol' dang certain we are all exposed to
those
> words from time time I believe that it takes a special someone
with
> the necessary adult conversational skills to avoid using
profanity in
> general discussion or in group discussions.
> Â
> I do not believe the use of profanity in our discussion group has
a
> place as we are fairly quite educated individuals with a wealth
of
> personal life's experiences which we can bring to the group - but
> without getting profane or using profanity.
> Â
> I personally do not advocate censorship in any format no matter
how
> innocuous it may appear. However as a group I believe the
individuals
> who make us what we are and what do and what we can achieve can
do so
> without resorting to profanity as a general part of our
discussion.
> Â
> Yes there are great works of literature which are very profane
and
> well worth reading and there are great movies which also have
> profanity - HOWEVER - those are read by choice or watched by
choice  -
> I do not believe the members of this group or LPSF are members so
they
> can hear or read profanity and not have a choice because some
member
> chooses to impose their lack of erudition and crassness on the
group.
> Â
> Jimminy Cricket why can't we all just get along with each other.
Great
> Jumpin Jehosaphat let's show our educational skills not a
dumpster
> diving.Â
> Â
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
> Â
> From: dredelstein@ threeminutethera py.com
> To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 10:36:09 AM
> Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Vitriol & **** [was: Re: Actually this is
an
> open letter to the LPC]
>
> Hey!
> Â
> In case anyone's interested, here's my 2c on the topic of vitriol
and
> "offensive" language:
> Â
> I'm not categorically against vitriol in our discussions. In
fact,
> passionately hating the state, Woodrow Wilson, Abe Lincoln, etc.
is
> fine with me. However, I am (vitriolicly? ) against vitriolic
attacks
> on our fellow LPSFers, which can rapidly lead to the destruction
of
> our unusually cohesive group of liberty activists.
> Â
> Similarly, I'm not categorically against using words like "fuck,"
> "shit," etc., when not used as part of a vitriolic attack on
LPSFers.
> These words have their place in expressing passion, humor, etc. I
> assume one offended by such language is precluded from enjoyably
> reading Chaucer, Shakespeare, or even going to the movies.
> Â
> Best, Michael
> Â
> From: Amarcy D. Berry
> To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 4:44 PM
> Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Actually this is an open letter to
the LPC
>
> Dear All,
>
> For what it is worth, I will continue my efforts to keep the LPSF
e-
> mail lists free of disrespectful language. Perhaps it is not
just
> the language that is offensive in the e-mail below, but the
> negativism.Â
>
> Regards,
>
> Marcy Berry
> Â
>
>
> --- In lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com, "theliberatedspace"
> <theliberatedspace@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Funny, it took seven years in Austin and a Badnarik birthday
party
> > for me to (however temporarily) resent everyone in the Texas
> > Libertarian Party. You Californians, being much much sharper,
> > managed to drive me crazy in seven months. I posted the
following
> > on my website. Bitch and moan if wish but it beats me getting
up
> at
> > the next Ex Com meeting to shout, "Fuck you. Fuck you all."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 08/08/06--World Leader Pretend
> > Author: Angela
> > Date:Â Â 08-09-06 02:37
> >
> > "If I'm told I have the burden of proving to you that I'm not
> > wasting my time, well, f-ck you. You can quote me on that."
> >
> > --David Bergland
> >
> > No,no, I didn't do it. No open letter to the LPC. No insisting
that
> > our national chair ban the entire state party from the LNC due
to
> > hooliganism, sad sackery, neuroses, quirky mysticism and a
ruling
> on
> > slippers. No smarmy remarks (e.g.,"If M.H. is so rich, why
didn't
> he
> > buy himself some shoes and a little deodorant.")
> >
> > If you haven't guessed, I am sick and tired of the Libertarian
> Party
> > of California. On its best day it is a force for comedy and on
its
> > worse it is simply an impediment to a free society.
> >
> > No, I don't mind that each and every member past and present of
the
> > LPC Ex Com possesses a personality defect or some completely
> > untoward eccentricity. What I mind is that every faction insists
> > that its vision of the LPC is the true and only heaven.
Meanwhile,
> > Keaton is merely some anarchist crank with an increasingly tight
> bum
> > (thanks Badnarik people for the kick in the ass.) If anything,
I am
> > developing a fondness for this collection of kooks hence, I am
> > issuing not so much a fatwa but a guide to how and why I will
vote
> > any goddamn way I want for the remainder of my term.
> >
> > No emails, no plaintive phone calls. I'm done with the plots,
the
> > therapy sessions and the tormented revelations. Like the rest of
> > you, I am voting however the hell I want and if you don't like
it
> > you can vote me out come 2008 when we have our convention in an
> > efficiency off of Wilshire or a cargo ship off of Novaya Zemlya.
> >
> > 1.) Operation Breakthrough- -It is distasteful however well
meaning
> > to create a professional class of libertarian bureaucrats
through
> > elections to non-partisan administrative boards. While I
maintain
> > the deepest respect and affection for our chair, Operation
> > Breakthrough is antithetical to the goals of a libertarian
society
> > and merely adopts the strategy of our oppressors.
> >
> > 2.)The excluded LPC middle, reformists and moderates--I have
often
> > heard the cry of "we want people who want to be part of
something
> > larger than themselves." "We want to do whatever works." "We
want
> > freedom now!" "Wouldn't you rather have some freedom than none?"
> >
> > First, this is the language of the collectivist, the "democrat,"
> and
> > ultimately the mob. The fight for freedom is often a solitary
> > struggle. While we come together to promote libertarian values,
the
> > desire for liberty must emanate from within each rational man.
The
> > language we use must reflect our ultimate goals.
> >
> > Second, the shift toward "holistic values" is a dangerous
> > development as it slouches ever so slowly with its promises
> > of "moderation" and "incrementalism" to a libertarianism without
> > liberty as its primary value. Without liberty the other values
are
> > meaningless and more importantly as radical individualists each
man
> > must decide for himself what is his hierarchy of values.
> >
> > Finally, as we slide toward a moderate platform with an
increasing
> > reluctance to stand by our radical principles, we demonstrate no
> > understanding of the Hegelian dialectic, human psychology or
recent
> > political history. Those yet unknown fellow travelers among us
> > crave, "a choice, not an echo."
> >
> > We dissuade freedom fighters from the bold move of casting a
vote
> > for liberty if we demand that they accept a bland rehash of
failed
> > GOP policy.
> >
> > As for the big tent, well, "We can't accept all the shit that
walks
> > in off the streets."
> >
> > 3.) "Pro War Libertarian" is not an acceptable deviation for
those
> > in leadership posts. This is not 1971. We are no longer a club
for
> > Randians angered with Nixon's price controls. The Libertarian
Party
> > has developed a clear and consistent message and those in
> leadership
> > posts should reflect it. While we should offer our hand in
> > brotherhood to those thoughtful conservatives, we should work to
> > persuade them that the non-aggression principle is the lynch
pin of
> > a civilized people.
> >
> > 4.) In an effort to stay true to my anarchist moral core, I have
> > disaffiliated with the Grassroots Caucus. While I unquestionably
> > support the caucus' principles, I must give a "no confidence"
vote
> > to its leadership which remains mired in trivial and petty
> stylistic
> > conflicts with the Ex Com while police brutality, government
theft
> > of private property and the occupation of foreign soil remain
the
> > order of the day. None of which will change if we merely concern
> > ourselves with the "corporate image" of our current Ex Com
> > leadership. While we argue over what to wear, the revolution
takes
> > place outside without us.
> >
> > In Liberty,
> > Angela Keaton, West Hollywood, CA
> > At Large Member LPC
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Â
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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