USA Obituary

Scary Obituary

In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the
University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the
Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent
form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until
the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous
gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority
always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from
the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally
collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the
beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200
years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage."

The Obituary follows:

Born 1776, Died 2012

It doesn't hurt to read this several times.

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law in
St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning
the last Presidential election:

Number of States won by: Obama: 19 Romney: 29
Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000 Romney: 2,427,000
Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million Romney: 143 million
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama: 13.2 Romney: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory
Romney won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of the country.
Obama territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in low
income tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."
Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the
"complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of
democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population
already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

It should be noted that the USA is not a Democracy. It is a Republic.
In a Democracy the majority rules in ALL cases. In a Republic the
minority is protected in many cases by a written document---like our
Constitution. Too bad the Constitution is a distant memory, ignored far more than it is observed.

I'd say we are in the last stage of dependence and bondage. Liberty is a far away dream for another generation with cowardice instead of faith.

I'm currently reading a book about the golden age of Athens and its democracy ("Athens" by Christian Meier, originally published in German in 1993, English translation 1998), and have also read an excellent novel "The Last of the Wine" (1956) by one of my favorite authors, Mary Renault, which deals with that same era. Although I strongly share the concern that freedom and democracy are in grave jeopardy in the United States, I have some issues with Alexander Tyler's historical analysis as described below.

  I'm not sure which other "greatest civilizations" Tyler may have had in mind besides the Athenian republic, but the sequence through which he says the "greatest civilizations" of the world "always progressed" does not correspond with what I've learned about ancient Athens. The growth of liberty and democracy in Athens seems to have been associated with a *decline* in spiritual faith and an increase in rationality, rather than spiritual faith being the font of liberty. Pericles, the dominant figure in Athens golden age of democracy, was according to Christian Meier a student of the philosopher Anaxagoras, who "regarded ... reason as the central force in the universe. Pericles wanted his city to be governed by it as well. Anaxagoras's studies in the natural sciences, including anatomy and astronomy, are said to have convinced Pericles to renounce all superstition."

  But the conditions that led to the emergence of democracy are complex, and deserve more study. Christian Meier's book contains much interesting material, but also wanders a lot; he could have used a better editor. He writes (on p. 303),

"We assign the beginning of democracy in Athens and in Greece to the year 462-461 (B.C.E.), and that beginning resulted from a negative act, the demolition of the Areopagus. [The Areopagus was the council of aristocrats which had been the primary governing body prior to this.] But the conditions for democracy's emergence had existed for some time. Cleisthenes had laid the foundation, which in time fostered a strong sense of self-confidence and political aptitude among the citizenry. 'The people' had only needed to be freed of the aristocratic council's authority to govern on their own."

  In another section of the book (p. 164), Meier describes Cleisthenes' reforms. Here is part of that description:

"He set up self-government in the small settlement units everywhere in Attica [the land area surrounding Athens, which was really part of the same political unit headed by Athens], a self-government based on equal rights. Then he created a complex system to connect citizens from all the regions and foster cooperation among them. This system served at the same time to create awareness of the rural population's will in Athens. He set up 'demes' new tribes, and a Council of Five Hundred. A deme was normally made up of a village or small town, though sometimes several hamlets were combined into one deme. Athens was subdivided into several demes and the city of Brauron into two. This resulted in 139 local units, each including at least a hundred citizens, in most instances several hundred, and occasionally over a thousand. The deme members administered the communal property in their district, conferred about work to be done, kept the local religious cults going, and organized festivals. The demes had priests and officials and, most important, a communal council, in which members of the middle class, even in rural areas, must have had a meaningful voice and opportunity to get elected. This 'grass-roots democracy' was able to connect with a neighborhood solidarity that went far back in history."

  Of course this "self-government" had its limitations, even after the rule of the nobility was more firmly ended in 462. "Some Sophists [a school of rationalist philosophers despised by Socrates for charging fees to teach their knowledge] went so far as to claim that all human beings -- freemen and slaves, Greeks and barbarians -- were alike," writes Meier on p. 409, "but this was a radical, marginal idea, and never served as the starting point for further thinking. It was never an idea that had practical or political consequences."

  The proximate cause of the end of the Athenian republic/democracy was Athens' defeat in the Peloponnesian War, which began around 431 B.C.E., by Sparta, which led to Sparta installing its handpicked rulers in Athens (Sparta was ruled by kings). Ironically, Sparta, which had been the dominant Greek power before the rise of Athens (a rise that coincided with its embrace of democracy), had freed Athens from the rule of the tyrant Hippias in 510 B.C.E., after a failed assassination attempt against him in 514 B.C.E. "By this time," writes Meier, "tyranny was on the decline in Athens; the citizenry was no longer willing to tolerate it." He distinguishes tyranny -- rule by one autocratic man -- from rule by the noble class, which was the norm prior to 462-461 B.C.E. "Strife arose among the various aristocratic factions that revived after the tyrant was expelled, and Cleisthenes lost the 508-507 [B.C.E.] election for chief archon to a nobleman named Isagoras. But Cleisthenes reacted quickly with a bold attempt to win the common people over to his camp and mobilize them to participated in politics.

  As far as I can tell from my reading, the outcome of the Peloponnesian Wars had little or nothing to do with Athenians voting themselves benefits from the public treasury, but had much to do with Athenian arrogance and empire-building, as well as the popularly elected leaders making poor military decisions. Toward the beginning of the war, Athens apparently held a stronger military position and could have made peace with Sparta on favorable terms, but declined to do so, and eventually over the course of the war which lasted many years was forced to surrender in 404 B.C.E.on very unfavorable terms. Of course people using democracy to vote themselves benefits could have gradually become the norm, given more time -- the "Golden Age" of Athenian democracy lasted less than a century.

  The situation was also a lot more complex than Athens-good, Sparta-bad. A couple generations before the Peloponnesian War, around 477 B.C.E., the leaders of Athens formed and led an organization called the Delian League, composed of a number of independent Greek city-states which united under Athenian leadership to resist attempts by the Persian empire to conquer Greece. A couple of these cities supplied their own military forces to the combined might of the League, but most of them instead contributed varying amounts of payments to Athens for purposes of military defense, principally building and funding its navy which was the key to Athens' military power (Sparta was militarily stronger on land, but weaker at sea; the Spartans could not readily invade Athens itself because the city was protected by walls). After the Greeks won their fight against the Persians and the threat of external invasion receded, the Delian League's raison d'etre was gone. Some cities tried to leave the League, but Athens prevented this with military force, punishing those who sought to regain independence and stop paying what essentially became tribute. Sparta enjoyed a fair amount of sympathy among Greeks for championing the "liberation of Greece" and freeing these cities from Athenian domination. Meanwhile however, many of the city-states had internal conflicts between democratic and oligarchic forces, with the democrats/republicans usually (always?) siding with Athens while the oligarchs were often supported by Sparta. Further complicating the picture, both the Athenians and the Spartans held considerable numbers of slaves, as presumably the citizens of other Greek city-states did as well. I surmise that the Spartan slaves may have been treated somewhat worse, as Sparta was apparently more concerned about the possibility of a slave uprising, but Athens was by no means an unqualified champion of freedom, although Meier notes that, "Whereas many cities demanded respectful behavior of slaves, extracting it with cudgels if necessary, in Athens slaves differed from other Athenians neither in dress nor bearing. The city needed them desperately, as well as metics [resident aliens] to maintain its maritime power [large numbers of rowers were required for the ships], and so they were treated with respect."

  While I understand the importance in contemporary political terms of asserting that certain actions are forbidden by the U.S. Constitution and may not be done by a simple legislative majority, the substantive definitions of a "republic" and a "democracy" remain poorly defined. To speak as if they are totally different institutions may be making too much of the distinction between requiring a super-majority to do something, versus requiring a simple majority. Alexander Tyler's claim that "in a democracy, the majority rules in ALL cases" is not helpful. Has a majority ever ruled in ALL cases in any nation? Who counts for purposes of determining a majority? It's important to be mindful of the fact that placing limits on majoritarian rule can work both for and against the interests of freedom. While it can limit the ability of majorities to oppress minorities, it can also limit the ability of the people to prevent would-be tyrants and oligarchs from accumulating centralized, top-down control. So a political system that is more of a "republic" is not necessarily going to result in more libertarian public policy than a system that is more of a "democracy" (indeed, as Marcy points out, policies and conditions favorable in some ways to liberty and the common good can exist even under autocratic or oligarchic regimes, although I think such systems of governance are more likely than not to be bad for individual freedom and prosperity, and thus should never be pursued as a libertarian goal). But whether republican or democratic ideals are more desirable depends I think upon the particular circumstances and details of the rules being considered. For reasons such as these, I often use the terms "democracy" and "republic" and their adjectives fairly interchangeably.

  Athenian democracy was in some ways superior, and in some ways inferior, to that of the United States today. It was markedly inferior in the sense that slaves and women had no legal voice in the governance of the polis (then again neither did slaves and women in post-independence America). But I'm getting the sense that it was superior in a number of other ways that are not as widely known. I'll post more about that in another message.

Love & Liberty,
                               ((( starchild )))

Thanks, Starchild. Looking forward to the next installment.

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Very good post, Starchild. Thank you. My general interpretation of your post informs me of the complexity of socio-political organization. It would appear to me that no sound bites, like "bread and circus," for example, explain what succeeds and what does not in pleasing the populace. I think, however, that Tyler's description of evolution and fall applies more to the Roman Empire, where the general malaise that seems to have gripped Romans reminds some (like me) of that gripping our own society. When the public can be kept docile and supportive by receiving the likes of "free" cell phones, what chance of survival can a republic have?

Regarding democracy vs. republic, I believe that in our society this difference is weak, since the public seems to demand that their representatives reflect the will of the majority in the group that placed them in office. So the desire of minorities are supposed to be ignored, thereby negating the reason for our Founding Parents establishing a republic.

Interestingly, while reading your post, I was also listening to Isabel Allende in a conversation with Michael Krasny. She mentioned the need for constant entertainment today -- the "boiling mind" as she described it. Isabel did not make the comparison, but I did, of this unfocused collective mind and the loss of "civic virtue" some ascribe to the fall or Rome.

BTW, indeed as you say, policies and conditions favorable in some ways to the common good can exist even under autocratic regimes, as I intimated in my earlier post; but you are correct, I was not advocating autocracy or oligarchic regimes as libertarian goals.

Thank you for the excellent history lesson and analysis. I also am looking forward to the second installment.

Marcy

Thank you both, Marcy and Starchild. Very interesting and thought-provoking comments.

I would simply like to add that either autocracy or oligarchy can IN THEORY be quite satisfactory and liberating IF the annointed one(s) is/are fair, just reasonable, etc. But the reality is, as far as I know, that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely and so that theoretical state of affairs has, at least to my knowledge, never existed. Hence the need for governing documents (such as our Constitution) to keep them in check. But even THAT eventually becomes more honored in the breach than in the observation, as we are seeing in this country now and have for more than a century and a half.

Although my highest ideal is a libertarian society, I would be thrilled beyond words if we could only return to a strict observation of the US Constitution.

Nina

"We should distinguish at this point between 'government' and 'state' ... A government is the consensual organization by which we adjudicate disputes, defend our rights, and provide for certain common needs ... A state on the other hand, is a coercive organization asserting or enjoying a monopoly over the use of physical force in some geographic area and exercising power over its subjects." - David Boaz

Hi folks,
I just called the national office of the Sierra Club. Within minutes I had names, phone numbers, and was in touch with the leaders of the Bay Area groups.

If we expect liberty, it will require some serious soul-searching, to examine the primitive organizational condition of those who want it.

It's current condition is extreme narcissism, looking for its echos in the internet, posting them on its discussion lists, and reiterating the echo in in its leadership.

I have seldom experienced such a dramatic contrast.

John

________________________________
From: Nina Ortega <ortegan@...>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: Athenian democracy (was Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [BAP2] USA Obituary)

Thank you both, Marcy and Starchild. Very interesting and thought-provoking comments.

I would simply like to add that either autocracy or oligarchy can IN THEORY be quite satisfactory and liberating IF the annointed one(s) is/are fair, just reasonable, etc. But the reality is, as far as I know, that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely and so that theoretical state of affairs has, at least to my knowledge, never existed. Hence the need for governing documents (such as our Constitution) to keep them in check. But even THAT eventually becomes more honored in the breach than in the observation, as we are seeing in this country now and have for more than a century and a half.

Although my highest ideal is a libertarian society, I would be thrilled beyond words if we could only return to a strict observation of the US Constitution.

Nina

"We should distinguish at this point between 'government' and 'state' ... A government is the consensual organization by which we adjudicate disputes, defend our rights, and provide for certain common needs ... A state on the other hand, is a coercive organization asserting or enjoying a monopoly over the use of physical force in some geographic area and exercising power over its subjects." - David Boaz

From: lpsfactivists <amarcyb@hotmail.com>
Subject: Athenian democracy (was Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [BAP2] USA Obituary)
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, April 23, 2013, 11:49 AM

Very good post, Starchild. Thank you. My general interpretation of your post informs me of the complexity of socio-political organization. It would appear to me that no sound bites, like "bread and circus," for example, explain what succeeds and what does not in pleasing the populace. I think, however, that Tyler's description of evolution and fall applies more to the Roman Empire, where the general malaise that seems to have gripped Romans reminds some (like me) of that gripping our own society. When the public can be kept docile and supportive by receiving the likes of "free" cell phones, what chance of survival can a republic have?

Regarding democracy vs. republic, I believe that in our society this difference is weak, since the public seems to demand that their representatives reflect the will of the majority in the group that placed them in office. So the desire of minorities are supposed to be ignored, thereby negating the reason for

our Founding Parents establishing a republic.

Interestingly, while reading your post, I was also listening to Isabel Allende in a conversation with Michael Krasny. She mentioned the need for constant entertainment today -- the "boiling mind" as she described it. Isabel did not make the comparison, but I did, of this unfocused collective mind and the loss of "civic virtue" some ascribe to the fall or Rome.

BTW, indeed as you say, policies and conditions favorable in some ways to the common good can exist even under autocratic regimes, as I intimated in my earlier post; but you are correct, I was not advocating autocracy or oligarchic regimes as libertarian goals.

Thank you for the excellent history lesson and analysis. I also am looking forward to the second installment.

Marcy

I'm currently reading a book about the golden age of Athens and its democracy ("Athens" by Christian Meier, originally published in German in 1993, English translation 1998), and have also read an excellent novel "The Last of the Wine" (1956) by one of my favorite authors, Mary Renault, which deals with that same era. Although I strongly share the concern that freedom and democracy are in grave jeopardy in the United States, I have some issues with Alexander Tyler's historical analysis as described below.

I'm not sure which other "greatest civilizations" Tyler may have had in mind besides the Athenian republic, but the sequence through which he says the "greatest civilizations" of the world "always progressed" does not correspond with what I've learned about ancient Athens. The growth of liberty and

democracy in Athens seems to have been associated with a *decline* in spiritual faith and an increase in rationality, rather than spiritual faith being the font of liberty. Pericles, the dominant figure in Athens golden age of democracy, was according to Christian Meier a student of the philosopher Anaxagoras, who "regarded ... reason as the central force in the universe. Pericles wanted his city to be governed by it as well. Anaxagoras's studies in the natural sciences, including anatomy and astronomy, are said to have convinced Pericles to renounce all superstition."

But the conditions that led to the emergence of democracy are complex, and deserve more study. Christian Meier's book contains much interesting material, but also wanders a lot; he could have used a better editor. He writes (on p. 303),

"We assign the beginning of democracy in Athens and in Greece to the year 462-461 (B.C.E.), and that beginning resulted

from a negative act, the demolition of the Areopagus. [The Areopagus was the council of aristocrats which had been the primary governing body prior to this.] But the conditions for democracy's emergence had existed for some time. Cleisthenes had laid the foundation, which in time fostered a strong sense of self-confidence and political aptitude among the citizenry. 'The people' had only needed to be freed of the aristocratic council's authority to govern on their own."

In another section of the book (p. 164), Meier describes Cleisthenes' reforms. Here is part of that description:

"He set up self-government in the small settlement units everywhere in Attica [the land area surrounding Athens, which was really part of the same political unit headed by Athens], a self-government based on equal rights. Then he created a complex system to connect citizens from all the regions and foster cooperation among them. This system

served at the same time to create awareness of the rural population's will in Athens. He set up 'demes' new tribes, and a Council of Five Hundred. A deme was normally made up of a village or small town, though sometimes several hamlets were combined into one deme. Athens was subdivided into several demes and the city of Brauron into two. This resulted in 139 local units, each including at least a hundred citizens, in most instances several hundred, and occasionally over a thousand. The deme members administered the communal property in their district, conferred about work to be done, kept the local religious cults going, and organized festivals. The demes had priests and officials and, most important, a communal council, in which members of the middle class, even in rural areas, must have had a meaningful voice and opportunity to get elected. This 'grass-roots democracy' was able to connect with a neighborhood solidarity that went far back in
history."

Of course this "self-government" had its limitations, even after the rule of the nobility was more firmly ended in 462. "Some Sophists [a school of rationalist philosophers despised by Socrates for charging fees to teach their knowledge] went so far as to claim that all human beings -- freemen and slaves, Greeks and barbarians -- were alike," writes Meier on p. 409, "but this was a radical, marginal idea, and never served as the starting point for further thinking. It was never an idea that had practical or political consequences."

The proximate cause of the end of the Athenian republic/democracy was Athens' defeat in the Peloponnesian War, which began around 431 B.C.E., by Sparta, which led to Sparta installing its handpicked rulers in Athens (Sparta was ruled by kings). Ironically, Sparta, which had been the dominant Greek power before the rise of Athens (a rise that coincided with its embrace of democracy),

had freed Athens from the rule of the tyrant Hippias in 510 B.C.E., after a failed assassination attempt against him in 514 B.C.E. "By this time," writes Meier, "tyranny was on the decline in Athens; the citizenry was no longer willing to tolerate it." He distinguishes tyranny -- rule by one autocratic man -- from rule by the noble class, which was the norm prior to 462-461 B.C.E. "Strife arose among the various aristocratic factions that revived after the tyrant was expelled, and Cleisthenes lost the 508-507 [B.C.E.] election for chief archon to a nobleman named Isagoras. But Cleisthenes reacted quickly with a bold attempt to win the common people over to his camp and mobilize them to participated in politics.

As far as I can tell from my reading, the outcome of the Peloponnesian Wars had little or nothing to do with Athenians voting themselves benefits from the public treasury, but had much to do with Athenian arrogance and

empire-building, as well as the popularly elected leaders making poor military decisions. Toward the beginning of the war, Athens apparently held a stronger military position and could have made peace with Sparta on favorable terms, but declined to do so, and eventually over the course of the war which lasted many years was forced to surrender in 404 B.C.E.on very unfavorable terms. Of course people using democracy to vote themselves benefits could have gradually become the norm, given more time -- the "Golden Age" of Athenian democracy lasted less than a century.

The situation was also a lot more complex than Athens-good, Sparta-bad. A couple generations before the Peloponnesian War, around 477 B.C.E., the leaders of Athens formed and led an organization called the Delian League, composed of a number of independent Greek city-states which united under Athenian leadership to resist attempts by the Persian empire to conquer Greece. A

couple of these cities supplied their own military forces to the combined might of the League, but most of them instead contributed varying amounts of payments to Athens for purposes of military defense, principally building and funding its navy which was the key to Athens' military power (Sparta was militarily stronger on land, but weaker at sea; the Spartans could not readily invade Athens itself because the city was protected by walls). After the Greeks won their fight against the Persians and the threat of external invasion receded, the Delian League's raison d'etre was gone. Some cities tried to leave the League, but Athens prevented this with military force, punishing those who sought to regain independence and stop paying what essentially became tribute. Sparta enjoyed a fair amount of sympathy among Greeks for championing the "liberation of Greece" and freeing these cities from Athenian domination. Meanwhile however, many of the city-states had
internal conflicts between democratic and oligarchic forces, with the democrats/republicans usually (always?) siding with Athens while the oligarchs were often supported by Sparta. Further complicating the picture, both the Athenians and the Spartans held considerable numbers of slaves, as presumably the citizens of other Greek city-states did as well. I surmise that the Spartan slaves may have been treated somewhat worse, as Sparta was apparently more concerned about the possibility of a slave uprising, but Athens was by no means an unqualified champion of freedom, although Meier notes that, "Whereas many cities demanded respectful behavior of slaves, extracting it with cudgels if necessary, in Athens slaves differed from other Athenians neither in dress nor bearing. The city needed them desperately, as well as metics [resident aliens] to maintain its maritime power [large numbers of rowers were required for the ships], and so they were treated with
respect."

While I understand the importance in contemporary political terms of asserting that certain actions are forbidden by the U.S. Constitution and may not be done by a simple legislative majority, the substantive definitions of a "republic" and a "democracy" remain poorly defined. To speak as if they are totally different institutions may be making too much of the distinction between requiring a super-majority to do something, versus requiring a simple majority. Alexander Tyler's claim that "in a democracy, the majority rules in ALL cases" is not helpful. Has a majority ever ruled in ALL cases in any nation? Who counts for purposes of determining a majority? It's important to be mindful of the fact that placing limits on majoritarian rule can work both for and against the interests of freedom. While it can limit the ability of majorities to oppress minorities, it can also limit the ability of the people to prevent would-be tyrants

and oligarchs from accumulating centralized, top-down control. So a political system that is more of a "republic" is not necessarily going to result in more libertarian public policy than a system that is more of a "democracy" (indeed, as Marcy points out, policies and conditions favorable in some ways to liberty and the common good can exist even under autocratic or oligarchic regimes, although I think such systems of governance are more likely than not to be bad for individual freedom and prosperity, and thus should never be pursued as a libertarian goal). But whether republican or democratic ideals are more desirable depends I think upon the particular circumstances and details of the rules being considered. For reasons such as these, I often use the terms "democracy" and "republic" and their adjectives fairly interchangeably.

Athenian democracy was in some ways superior, and in some ways inferior, to that of the United States today.

It was markedly inferior in the sense that slaves and women had no legal voice in the governance of the polis (then again neither did slaves and women in post-independence America). But I'm getting the sense that it was superior in a number of other ways that are not as widely known. I'll post more about that in another message.

Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))

> I'd say we are in the last stage of dependence and bondage. Liberty is a far away dream for another generation with cowardice instead of faith.
>
>
> From: Nina Ortega <ortegan@...>
> To: bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com; lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 1:51 PM
> Subject: [BAP2] USA Obituary
>
>
> Scary Obituary
> In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the
> University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the
> Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:
>
> "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent
> form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until
> the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous
> gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority
> always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits

from

> the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally
> collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."
>
> "The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the
> beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200
> years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
>
> From bondage to spiritual faith;
> From spiritual faith to great courage;
> From courage to liberty;
> From liberty to abundance;
> From abundance to complacency;
> From complacency to apathy;
> From apathy to dependence;
> From dependence back into bondage."
>
> The Obituary follows:
>
> Born 1776, Died 2012
>
> It doesn't hurt to read this

several times.

>
> Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law in
> St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning
> the last Presidential election:
>
> Number of States won by: Obama: 19 Romney: 29
> Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000 Romney: 2,427,000
> Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million Romney: 143 million
> Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama: 13.2 Romney: 2.1
>
> Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory
> Romney won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of the country.
>
> Obama territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in low
> income tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."
> Olson believes the United States is now

somewhere between the

Nina, you are absolutely correct on the corrupting results of power, and on a return to Constitutional principles being an answer to our prayers should a libertarian society prove illusive.

Regarding the quote by Tyler, I liked it so much that I Googled to learn more about it. Although the quote describes our society's obituary to a T, it probably originated with some pretty imaginative folk besides Mr. Tyler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fraser_Tytler

Marcy

Hi John,

Oh I like our Discussion list! We all do not live by bread alone, we need some entertainment! Whether the entertainment consists of posting interesting stuff or "soul-searching to examine the primitive organizational condition of those who want [liberty]" is all fine with me.

Hopefully there is some concrete action also, though.

Marcy

Marcy,
I'm sure you noticed there was another recipient list, and with me rhetorically inclined...:slight_smile:

But mostly I'll talk a lot about the "shoes". I leave it to wearer to put them on.

John

________________________________
From: lpsfactivists <amarcyb@...>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:39 PM
Subject: Athenian democracy (was Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [BAP2] USA Obituary)

Hi John,

Oh I like our Discussion list! We all do not live by bread alone, we need some entertainment! Whether the entertainment consists of posting interesting stuff or "soul-searching to examine the primitive organizational condition of those who want [liberty]" is all fine with me.

Hopefully there is some concrete action also, though.

Marcy

Hi folks,
I just called the national office of the Sierra Club. Within minutes I had names, phone numbers, and was in touch with the leaders of the Bay Area groups.Â

If we expect liberty, it will require some serious soul-searching, to examine the primitive organizational condition of those who want it.

It's current condition is extreme narcissism, looking for its echos in the internet, posting them on its discussion lists, and reiterating the echo in in its leadership.Â

I have seldom experienced such a dramatic contrast. Â

John

>________________________________
> From: Nina Ortega <ortegan@...>
>To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:00 PM
>Subject: Re: Athenian democracy (was Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [BAP2] USA Obituary)
>
>
>

>Thank you both, Marcy and Starchild. Very interesting and thought-provoking comments.

>I would simply like to add that either autocracy or oligarchy can IN THEORY be quite satisfactory and liberating IF the annointed one(s) is/are fair, just reasonable, etc. But the reality is, as far as I know, that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely and so that theoretical state of affairs has, at least to my knowledge, never existed. Hence the need for governing documents (such as our Constitution) to keep them in check. But even THAT eventually becomes more honored in the breach than in the observation, as we are seeing in this country now and have for more than a century and a half.

>Although my highest ideal is a libertarian society, I would be thrilled beyond words if we could only return to a strict observation of the US Constitution.

>Nina
>
>
>"We should distinguish at this point between 'government' and 'state' ... A government is the consensual organization by which we adjudicate disputes, defend our rights, and provide for certain common needs ... A state on the other hand, is a coercive organization asserting or enjoying a monopoly over the use of physical force in some geographic area and exercising power over its subjects."Â - David Boaz
>
>
>
>>From: lpsfactivists <amarcyb@...>
>>Subject: Athenian democracy (was Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [BAP2] USA Obituary)
>>To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>>Date: Tuesday, April 23, 2013, 11:49 AM
>>
>>
>>Â
>>Very good post, Starchild. Thank you. My general interpretation of your post informs me of the complexity of socio-political organization. It would appear to me that no sound bites, like "bread and circus," for example, explain what succeeds and what does not in pleasing the populace. I think, however, that Tyler's description of evolution and fall applies more to the Roman Empire, where the general malaise that seems to have gripped Romans reminds some (like me) of that gripping our own society. When the public can be kept docile and supportive by receiving the likes of "free" cell phones, what chance of survival can a republic have?
>>
>>Regarding democracy vs. republic, I believe that in our society this difference is weak, since the public seems to demand that their representatives reflect the will of the majority in the group that placed them in office. So the desire of minorities are supposed to be ignored, thereby negating the reason for
our Founding Parents establishing a republic.
>>
>>Interestingly, while reading your post, I was also listening to Isabel Allende in a conversation with Michael Krasny. She mentioned the need for constant entertainment today -- the "boiling mind" as she described it. Isabel did not make the comparison, but I did, of this unfocused collective mind and the loss of "civic virtue" some ascribe to the fall or Rome.
>>
>>BTW, indeed as you say, policies and conditions favorable in some ways to the common good can exist even under autocratic regimes, as I intimated in my earlier post; but you are correct, I was not advocating autocracy or oligarchic regimes as libertarian goals.
>>
>>Thank you for the excellent history lesson and analysis. I also am looking forward to the second installment.
>>
>>Marcy
>>
>>>
>>> I'm currently reading a book about the golden age of Athens and its democracy ("Athens" by Christian Meier, originally published in German in 1993, English translation 1998), and have also read an excellent novel "The Last of the Wine" (1956) by one of my favorite authors, Mary Renault, which deals with that same era. Although I strongly share the concern that freedom and democracy are in grave jeopardy in the United States, I have some issues with Alexander Tyler's historical analysis as described below.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure which other "greatest civilizations" Tyler may have had in mind besides the Athenian republic, but the sequence through which he says the "greatest civilizations" of the world "always progressed" does not correspond with what I've learned about ancient Athens. The growth of liberty and
democracy in Athens seems to have been associated with a *decline* in spiritual faith and an increase in rationality, rather than spiritual faith being the font of liberty. Pericles, the dominant figure in Athens golden age of democracy, was according to Christian Meier a student of the philosopher Anaxagoras, who "regarded ... reason as the central force in the universe. Pericles wanted his city to be governed by it as well. Anaxagoras's studies in the natural sciences, including anatomy and astronomy, are said to have convinced Pericles to renounce all superstition."
>>>
>>> But the conditions that led to the emergence of democracy are complex, and deserve more study. Christian Meier's book contains much interesting material, but also wanders a lot; he could have used a better editor. He writes (on p. 303),
>>>
>>> "We assign the beginning of democracy in Athens and in Greece to the year 462-461 (B.C.E.), and that beginning resulted
from a negative act, the demolition of the Areopagus. [The Areopagus was the council of aristocrats which had been the primary governing body prior to this.] But the conditions for democracy's emergence had existed for some time. Cleisthenes had laid the foundation, which in time fostered a strong sense of self-confidence and political aptitude among the citizenry. 'The people' had only needed to be freed of the aristocratic council's authority to govern on their own."
>>>
>>> In another section of the book (p. 164), Meier describes Cleisthenes' reforms. Here is part of that description:
>>>
>>> "He set up self-government in the small settlement units everywhere in Attica [the land area surrounding Athens, which was really part of the same political unit headed by Athens], a self-government based on equal rights. Then he created a complex system to connect citizens from all the regions and foster cooperation among them. This system
served at the same time to create awareness of the rural population's will in Athens. He set up 'demes' new tribes, and a Council of Five Hundred. A deme was normally made up of a village or small town, though sometimes several hamlets were combined into one deme. Athens was subdivided into several demes and the city of Brauron into two. This resulted in 139 local units, each including at least a hundred citizens, in most instances several hundred, and occasionally over a thousand. The deme members administered the communal property in their district, conferred about work to be done, kept the local religious cults going, and organized festivals. The demes had priests and officials and, most important, a communal council, in which members of the middle class, even in rural areas, must have had a meaningful voice and opportunity to get elected. This 'grass-roots democracy' was able to connect with a neighborhood solidarity that went far back in
history."
>>>
>>> Of course this "self-government" had its limitations, even after the rule of the nobility was more firmly ended in 462. "Some Sophists [a school of rationalist philosophers despised by Socrates for charging fees to teach their knowledge] went so far as to claim that all human beings -- freemen and slaves, Greeks and barbarians -- were alike," writes Meier on p. 409, "but this was a radical, marginal idea, and never served as the starting point for further thinking. It was never an idea that had practical or political consequences."
>>>
>>> The proximate cause of the end of the Athenian republic/democracy was Athens' defeat in the Peloponnesian War, which began around 431 B.C.E., by Sparta, which led to Sparta installing its handpicked rulers in Athens (Sparta was ruled by kings). Ironically, Sparta, which had been the dominant Greek power before the rise of Athens (a rise that coincided with its embrace of democracy),
had freed Athens from the rule of the tyrant Hippias in 510 B.C.E., after a failed assassination attempt against him in 514 B.C.E. "By this time," writes Meier, "tyranny was on the decline in Athens; the citizenry was no longer willing to tolerate it." He distinguishes tyranny -- rule by one autocratic man -- from rule by the noble class, which was the norm prior to 462-461 B.C.E. "Strife arose among the various aristocratic factions that revived after the tyrant was expelled, and Cleisthenes lost the 508-507 [B.C.E.] election for chief archon to a nobleman named Isagoras. But Cleisthenes reacted quickly with a bold attempt to win the common people over to his camp and mobilize them to participated in politics.
>>>
>>> As far as I can tell from my reading, the outcome of the Peloponnesian Wars had little or nothing to do with Athenians voting themselves benefits from the public treasury, but had much to do with Athenian arrogance and
empire-building, as well as the popularly elected leaders making poor military decisions. Toward the beginning of the war, Athens apparently held a stronger military position and could have made peace with Sparta on favorable terms, but declined to do so, and eventually over the course of the war which lasted many years was forced to surrender in 404 B.C.E.on very unfavorable terms. Of course people using democracy to vote themselves benefits could have gradually become the norm, given more time -- the "Golden Age" of Athenian democracy lasted less than a century.
>>>
>>> The situation was also a lot more complex than Athens-good, Sparta-bad. A couple generations before the Peloponnesian War, around 477 B.C.E., the leaders of Athens formed and led an organization called the Delian League, composed of a number of independent Greek city-states which united under Athenian leadership to resist attempts by the Persian empire to conquer Greece. A
couple of these cities supplied their own military forces to the combined might of the League, but most of them instead contributed varying amounts of payments to Athens for purposes of military defense, principally building and funding its navy which was the key to Athens' military power (Sparta was militarily stronger on land, but weaker at sea; the Spartans could not readily invade Athens itself because the city was protected by walls). After the Greeks won their fight against the Persians and the threat of external invasion receded, the Delian League's raison d'etre was gone. Some cities tried to leave the League, but Athens prevented this with military force, punishing those who sought to regain independence and stop paying what essentially became tribute. Sparta enjoyed a fair amount of sympathy among Greeks for championing the "liberation of Greece" and freeing these cities from Athenian domination. Meanwhile however, many of the city-states

had

Huuummmmm.... you mean "If the shoe doesn't fit, must we change the foot?"
― Gloria Steinem

Heh heh...
Noooo...if it doesn't fit don't wear it...you knew that.

________________________________
From: lpsfactivists <amarcyb@...>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 5:06 PM
Subject: Athenian democracy (was Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [BAP2] USA Obituary)

Huuummmmm.... you mean "If the shoe doesn't fit, must we change the foot?"
― Gloria Steinem

Marcy,
I'm sure you noticed there was another recipient list, and with me rhetorically inclined...:slight_smile:

But mostly I'll talk a lot about the "shoes". I leave it to wearer to put them on.

John

>________________________________
> From: lpsfactivists <amarcyb@...>
>To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:39 PM
>Subject: Athenian democracy (was Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [BAP2] USA Obituary)
>
>
>

>Hi John,
>
>Oh I like our Discussion list! We all do not live by bread alone, we need some entertainment! Whether the entertainment consists of posting interesting stuff or "soul-searching to examine the primitive organizational condition of those who want [liberty]" is all fine with me.
>
>Hopefully there is some concrete action also, though.
>
>Marcy
>
>>
>> Hi folks,
>> I just called the national office of the Sierra Club. Within minutes I had names, phone numbers, and was in touch with the leaders of the Bay Area groups.ÂÂ
>>
>> If we expect liberty, it will require some serious soul-searching, to examine the primitive organizational condition of those who want it.
>>
>> It's current condition is extreme narcissism, looking for its echos in the internet, posting them on its discussion lists, and reiterating the echo in in its leadership.ÂÂ
>>
>> I have seldom experienced such a dramatic contrast. ÂÂ
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> >________________________________
>> > From: Nina Ortega <ortegan@>
>> >To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>> >Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:00 PM
>> >Subject: Re: Athenian democracy (was Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [BAP2] USA Obituary)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >ÂÂ
>> >Thank you both, Marcy and Starchild. Very interesting and thought-provoking comments.
>> >ÂÂ
>> >I would simply like to add that either autocracy or oligarchy can IN THEORY be quite satisfactory and liberating IF the annointed one(s) is/are fair, just reasonable, etc. But the reality is, as far as I know, that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely and so that theoretical state of affairs has, at least to my knowledge, never existed. Hence the need for governing documents (such as our Constitution) to keep them in check. But even THAT eventually becomes more honored in the breach than in the observation, as we are seeing in this country now and have for more than a century and a half.
>> >ÂÂ
>> >Although my highest ideal is a libertarian society, I would be thrilled beyond words if we could only return to a strict observation of the US Constitution.
>> >ÂÂ
>> >Nina
>> >
>> >
>> >"We should distinguish at this point between 'government' and 'state' ... A government is the consensual organization by which we adjudicate disputes, defend our rights, and provide for certain common needs ... A state on the other hand, is a coercive organization asserting or enjoying a monopoly over the use of physical force in some geographic area and exercising power over its subjects." - David Boaz
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>From: lpsfactivists <amarcyb@>
>> >>Subject: Athenian democracy (was Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [BAP2] USA Obituary)
>> >>To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>> >>Date: Tuesday, April 23, 2013, 11:49 AM
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>ÂÂ
>> >>Very good post, Starchild. Thank you. My general interpretation of your post informs me of the complexity of socio-political organization. It would appear to me that no sound bites, like "bread and circus," for example, explain what succeeds and what does not in pleasing the populace. I think, however, that Tyler's description of evolution and fall applies more to the Roman Empire, where the general malaise that seems to have gripped Romans reminds some (like me) of that gripping our own society. When the public can be kept docile and supportive by receiving the likes of "free" cell phones, what chance of survival can a republic have?
>> >>
>> >>Regarding democracy vs. republic, I believe that in our society this difference is weak, since the public seems to demand that their representatives reflect the will of the majority in the group that placed them in office. So the desire of minorities are supposed to be ignored, thereby negating the reason for
>> our Founding Parents establishing a republic.
>> >>
>> >>Interestingly, while reading your post, I was also listening to Isabel Allende in a conversation with Michael Krasny. She mentioned the need for constant entertainment today -- the "boiling mind" as she described it. Isabel did not make the comparison, but I did, of this unfocused collective mind and the loss of "civic virtue" some ascribe to the fall or Rome.
>> >>
>> >>BTW, indeed as you say, policies and conditions favorable in some ways to the common good can exist even under autocratic regimes, as I intimated in my earlier post; but you are correct, I was not advocating autocracy or oligarchic regimes as libertarian goals.
>> >>
>> >>Thank you for the excellent history lesson and analysis. I also am looking forward to the second installment.
>> >>
>> >>Marcy
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm currently reading a book about the golden age of Athens and its democracy ("Athens" by Christian Meier, originally published in German in 1993, English translation 1998), and have also read an excellent novel "The Last of the Wine" (1956) by one of my favorite authors, Mary Renault, which deals with that same era. Although I strongly share the concern that freedom and democracy are in grave jeopardy in the United States, I have some issues with Alexander Tyler's historical analysis as described below.
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm not sure which other "greatest civilizations" Tyler may have had in mind besides the Athenian republic, but the sequence through which he says the "greatest civilizations" of the world "always progressed" does not correspond with what I've learned about ancient Athens. The growth of liberty and
>> democracy in Athens seems to have been associated with a *decline* in spiritual faith and an increase in rationality, rather than spiritual faith being the font of liberty. Pericles, the dominant figure in Athens golden age of democracy, was according to Christian Meier a student of the philosopher Anaxagoras, who "regarded ... reason as the central force in the universe. Pericles wanted his city to be governed by it as well. Anaxagoras's studies in the natural sciences, including anatomy and astronomy, are said to have convinced Pericles to renounce all superstition."
>> >>>
>> >>> But the conditions that led to the emergence of democracy are complex, and deserve more study. Christian Meier's book contains much interesting material, but also wanders a lot; he could have used a better editor. He writes (on p. 303),
>> >>>
>> >>> "We assign the beginning of democracy in Athens and in Greece to the year 462-461 (B.C.E.), and that beginning resulted
>> from a negative act, the demolition of the Areopagus. [The Areopagus was the council of aristocrats which had been the primary governing body prior to this.] But the conditions for democracy's emergence had existed for some time. Cleisthenes had laid the foundation, which in time fostered a strong sense of self-confidence and political aptitude among the citizenry. 'The people' had only needed to be freed of the aristocratic council's authority to govern on their own."
>> >>>
>> >>> In another section of the book (p. 164), Meier describes Cleisthenes' reforms. Here is part of that description:
>> >>>
>> >>> "He set up self-government in the small settlement units everywhere in Attica [the land area surrounding Athens, which was really part of the same political unit headed by Athens], a self-government based on equal rights. Then he created a complex system to connect citizens from all the regions and foster cooperation among them. This system
>> served at the same time to create awareness of the rural population's will in Athens. He set up 'demes' new tribes, and a Council of Five Hundred. A deme was normally made up of a village or small town, though sometimes several hamlets were combined into one deme. Athens was subdivided into several demes and the city of Brauron into two. This resulted in 139 local units, each including at least a hundred citizens, in most instances several hundred, and occasionally over a thousand. The deme members administered the communal property in their district, conferred about work to be done, kept the local religious cults going, and organized festivals. The demes had priests and officials and, most important, a communal council, in which members of the middle class, even in rural areas, must have had a meaningful voice and opportunity to get elected. This 'grass-roots democracy' was able to connect with a neighborhood solidarity that went far back in
>> history."
>> >>>
>> >>> Of course this "self-government" had its limitations, even after the rule of the nobility was more firmly ended in 462. "Some Sophists [a school of rationalist philosophers despised by Socrates for charging fees to teach their knowledge] went so far as to claim that all human beings -- freemen and slaves, Greeks and barbarians -- were alike," writes Meier on p. 409, "but this was a radical, marginal idea, and never served as the starting point for further thinking. It was never an idea that had practical or political consequences."
>> >>>
>> >>> The proximate cause of the end of the Athenian republic/democracy was Athens' defeat in the Peloponnesian War, which began around 431 B.C.E., by Sparta, which led to Sparta installing its handpicked rulers in Athens (Sparta was ruled by kings). Ironically, Sparta, which had been the dominant Greek power before the rise of Athens (a rise that coincided with its embrace of democracy),
>> had freed Athens from the rule of the tyrant Hippias in 510 B.C.E., after a failed assassination attempt against him in 514 B.C.E. "By this time," writes Meier, "tyranny was on the decline in Athens; the citizenry was no longer willing to tolerate it." He distinguishes tyranny -- rule by one autocratic man -- from rule by the noble class, which was the norm prior to 462-461 B.C.E. "Strife arose among the various aristocratic factions that revived after the tyrant was expelled, and Cleisthenes lost the 508-507 [B.C.E.] election for chief archon to a nobleman named Isagoras. But Cleisthenes reacted quickly with a bold attempt to win the common people over to his camp and mobilize them to participated in politics.
>> >>>
>> >>> As far as I can tell from my reading, the outcome of the Peloponnesian Wars had little or nothing to do with Athenians voting themselves benefits from the public treasury, but had much to do with Athenian arrogance and
>> empire-building, as well as the popularly elected leaders making poor military decisions. Toward the beginning of the war, Athens apparently held a stronger military position and could have made peace with Sparta on favorable terms, but declined to do so, and eventually over the course of the war which lasted many years was forced to surrender in 404 B.C.E.on very unfavorable terms. Of course people using democracy to vote themselves benefits could have gradually become the norm, given more time -- the "Golden Age" of Athenian democracy lasted less than a century.
>> >>>
>> >>> The situation was also a lot more complex than Athens-good, Sparta-bad. A couple generations before the Peloponnesian War, around 477 B.C.E., the leaders of Athens formed and led an organization called the Delian League, composed of a number of independent Greek city-states which united under Athenian leadership to resist attempts by the Persian empire to conquer Greece. A
>> couple of these cities supplied their own military forces to the combined might of the League, but most of them instead contributed varying amounts of payments to Athens for purposes of military defense, principally building and funding its navy which was the key to Athens' military power (Sparta was militarily stronger on land, but weaker at sea; the Spartans could not readily invade Athens itself because the city was protected by walls). After the Greeks won their fight against the Persians and the threat of external invasion receded, the Delian League's raison d'etre was gone. Some cities tried to leave the League, but Athens prevented this with military force, punishing those who sought to regain independence and stop paying what essentially became tribute. Sparta enjoyed a fair amount of sympathy among Greeks for championing the "liberation of Greece" and freeing these cities from Athenian domination. Meanwhile however, many of the city-states
had
>> internal conflicts between democratic and oligarchic forces, with the democrats/republicans usually (always?) siding with Athens while the oligarchs were often supported by Sparta. Further complicating the picture, both the Athenians and the Spartans held considerable numbers of slaves, as presumably the citizens of other Greek city-states did as well. I surmise that the Spartan slaves may have been treated somewhat worse, as Sparta was apparently more concerned about the possibility of a slave uprising, but Athens was by no means an unqualified champion of freedom, although Meier notes that, "Whereas many cities demanded respectful behavior of slaves, extracting it with cudgels if necessary, in Athens slaves differed from other Athenians neither in dress nor bearing. The city needed them desperately, as well as metics [resident aliens] to maintain its maritime power [large numbers of rowers were required for the ships], and so they were treated

with