Paul,
Please see my further replies interspersed below…
Paul_R_Cavanaugh https://forum.lpsf.org/u/paul_r_cavanaugh
July 8
The spontaneous ordering of individuals is always a hierarchy with the strongest oppressing the rest to the largest extent possible in any society.
Not true. When people queue for a line, do the strongest always wind up at the front? No – at least in this society, lines usually form in order of arrival.
“When left to their own devices rather than being managed by some centralized planning agency, the effect of people’s efforts can increase exponentially.”
This is never true in any civilization where there isn’t a strong central government protecting those individuals from having the fruits of their efforts immediately stolen.
Sure it is. The most government typically does in regards to theft – in cases where government personnel are not themselves the thieves, as is frequently the case – is respond to it after the fact, often with as much or more emphasis on punishing the offenders as in getting the stolen property returned to those from whom it was taken. State power offers little to no protection against the fruits of their efforts being “ mmediately" (or later) stolen.
In regards to theft, see also the story at this link, which reports on how government in the United States has stolen more money through forfeiture – not even counting “ordinary” coercive taxation! – than non-State thieves over the past couple decades:
That’s why the vast majority of technological achievements have occurred under the umbrella of a strong government, usually either a world power or in the shadow of a world power. It’s one of the reasons that Africa and the New World were virtually devoid of technological progress since their kings lacked the technological ability to control (you would call oppress) the population to the extent necessary to make it safe to innovate.
I think you have it exactly backwards. The degree of oppression or control exerted by rulers over ordinary people in Africa and the New World was often just as great as in the so-called “world powers”. Think of the African/Middle Eastern slave trade, or the human sacrifices of the Aztecs and other mesa-american empires. Technological innovation is the fruit of liberty, not of state control!
I don’t know why this is always lost on you. The Renaissance didn’t happen until governments became powerful enough.
The Renaissance occurred first not under a strong empire, but in the commercial Italian city-state of Florence, spreading from there to other decentralized Italian city states like Venice, Rome, and Genoa, which crucially enjoyed high levels of international trade, something that occurs despite – not because of – government controls. Renaissance values centered not around State power, but around a spirit of rationalism and humanism that developed through art, culture, and science. See e.g. Where Did the Renaissance Begin?.
The industrial revolution didn’t happen until governments became strong enough.
I don’t find that credible either. What evidence do you have that the Industrial Revolution was the result of government becoming stronger? There is a fairly balanced and detailed analysis at https://jenni.uchicago.edu/WJP/papers/Harris_govt_and_econ.pdf which does not come to any such conclusion:
"The ever-important question, what was the contribution of the state to
the first industrial revolution, has not been satisfactorily answered in this
chapter…
The British way seems to have been the middle road: not an entrenched
constitution but not royal despotism, not super-rational and organised
Roman law but not total identity of law with politics, not completely
centralised but not overly decentralised, not a state taken over by big
business and robber barons but not a planned-from-above economy. Hind-
sight shows us that something in this mix did the trick, since Britain
experienced unprecedented economic growth, by both comparative and
inter-temporal standards, during the 150 years discussed here. But which
elements of the mix contributed more to growth, which contributed less
and which hindered it? More research by economic, political and legal his-
torians, pragmatically employing the theoretical tools of the various dis-
ciplines and better utilising some of the less-explored historical sources,
will be needed before a new synthesis can emerge.”
Rome didn’t invent virtually everything we have in civil engineering until they became powerful enough.
And what evidence do you have that these inventions were the result of State power? More to the point, how do you believe the growth of government helped the Mediterranean civilization under Roman domination? A 1987 essay by Nicholas Davidson published online at https://fee.org/articles/the-ancient-suicide-of-the-west/ traces the opposite effect – how that civilization slowly declined and eventually collapsed due to statism. This section offers a broad synopsis:
"The Free Market of the Ancient Mediterranean
Classical civilization was a middle class civilization. It stood at the pinnacle of a long process of democratization that had begun hundreds of years earlier. Broadly speaking, the aristocrats first overthrew the kings. The oligopolies they established were in turn overthrown by the upper middle class.
A vast development of trade between the ninth and the fifth centuries B.C. underlay this development. The central importance of commerce was self-evident to the ancient Greeks. As Plato has Socrates say in the Republic, “To find a place where nothing need be imported is well- nigh impossible,” to which Socrates’ interlocutor rejoins, “Impossible.”[3 https://fee.org/vnews.php?nid=1841#3]
The expansion of trade gave rise to a large and affluent middle class. Two of the criteria of aristocratic worth—wealth and military value—simultaneously passed to the middle class. Building on these assets, the middle class sought and in many cases achieved cultural and political influence commensurate with its economic power. By the peak moment of Greek civilization in fifth century Athens, the upper middle class occupied a position roughly analogous to that of the upper middle class in Britain after 1688 or France after 1789, as the cultural center of society.
If the Greeks, along with the Phoenicians and their Carthaginian descendants, were a thorough success as merchants, they were less successful in their political efforts. They experimented with every form of government without ever transcending the specter of political instability. But the political turbulence of the Greek world may have held unsuspected economic benefits.
The disunited world of the ancient Mediterranean constituted a de facto free market. States, each one seeking its own interest, competed against each other, with none able to gain a lasting advantage. In this setting, commerce flourished. The population and prosperity of the Mediterranean basin increased dramatically.[4 https://fee.org/vnews.php?nid=1841#4]
Little by little Rome swallowed up the states of the ancient Mediterranean, such as Mar-seille, Syracuse, Carthage, Athens, and Egypt. At first the benefit seemed enormous. The chronic war and piracy which had plagued the Greek world were suppressed. Briefly the world knew peace and order and was able to expand its infrastructure. The ancient world reached yet a new peak of population and prosperity.[5 https://fee.org/vnews.php?nid=1841#5] But the state which made this possible carried within itself the principle of its own destruction."
– From https://fee.org/articles/the-ancient-suicide-of-the-west/
What you consider oppressive power is the only thing that made the modern age possible yet you constantly attack it.
Innovations like the flush toilet and the modern arrangement of homes designed for comfort rather than majesty (e.g. with specialized rooms and spaces for separate purposes like bathing, dining, dressing, and storage) didn’t become widespread until a stock market developed that allowed enough wealth to be created independent of the ruling aristocracy for demand to spur innovation. (An insight I gained from a book I’m currently reading, “The Age of Comfort: When Paris Discovered Casual – and the Modern Home Began” by Joan DeJean, published 2009.)
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
···
On Jul 7, 2023, at 7:26 PM, Paul R Cavanaugh via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:
~ Paul
Starchild
July 8 |
Roy,Statists frame anarchy as this scary external “chaos” to be opposed at all costs. But in reality, life is naturally chaotic and anarchies are just the spontaneous ordering of individuals. This can include great evil and great good because society is comprised of humans with this dual nature.
When left to their own devices rather than being managed by some centralized planning agency, the effect of people’s efforts can increase exponentially. This freedom is how the greatest human accomplishments are achieved, and is how all life progressed to its current levels of evolution before government.
By packaging “anarchy” as this alien force that undermines human society, statists are essentially refusing to allow the baby to have a bath, rejecting the great good that freedom can bring. We need that freedom to solve the many great problems society faces.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
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Jeffrey_Flint https://forum.lpsf.org/u/jeffrey_flint
July 7
I always find it interesting that people often differentiate between, segregate, “humans” and “nature” as if humans are not a part of nature. Similarly, people often differentiate and segregate “humans” and “government” as if humans were not a part of government, as if in fact the government wa…
Previous RepliesStarchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
July 8
I don’t know, Marty. I haven’t read the whole book, just the excerpts at the link. (As well as numerous articles by the author in libertarian publications over the years, from which I assume he is well acquainted with the phenomena of government corruption and the revolving door.) It is on my reading list now though.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
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dennz https://forum.lpsf.org/u/dennz
July 8
Excellent point Starchild. Anarchy means “without rulers”. But even Libertarian anarchists follow various forms of personal morality that govern our behavior aside from government. I’m a Catholic. Many I know follow the “Non-Aggression principle”. And there is the Live and Let Live movement too. The pastor of my church says “You can’t be pro-government and preach the gospel”.Mike
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Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
July 8
Paul,You weren’t added to any email group. You were simply copied on an email that I also copied to the LPSF discussion list as well as to the SF Debate folks with whom you’re accustomed to arguing.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/the-permission-society/21838/10
Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
July 8
Roy,Statists frame anarchy as this scary external “chaos” to be opposed at all costs. But in reality, life is naturally chaotic and anarchies are just the spontaneous ordering of individuals. This can include great evil and great good because society is comprised of humans with this dual nature.
When left to their own devices rather than being managed by some centralized planning agency, the effect of people’s efforts can increase exponentially. This freedom is how the greatest human accomplishments are achieved, and is how all life progressed to its current levels of evolution before government.
By packaging “anarchy” as this alien force that undermines human society, statists are essentially refusing to allow the baby to have a bath, rejecting the great good that freedom can bring. We need that freedom to solve the many great problems society faces.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/the-permission-society/21838/9
Roy_Ferreira https://forum.lpsf.org/u/roy_ferreira
July 7
Very good points, Jeff. Libertarians frame “government” as this evil, monolithic external force to be opposed at all costs. But in reality, governments are just organizations of individuals. Governments are capable of both great evil and great good because they are comprised of humans with this dual nature. When organized collaboratively, the effect of human efforts can increase exponentially. This is how the greatest human accomplishments are achieved, but also how the worst human atrocities are committed.
By packaging “government” as this alien force responsible for the greatest evils, Libertarians are essentially throwing the baby out with the bathwater, also rejecting the great good that government’s organizational power can bring. We need that power to solve the many great problems that humanity faces, overpopulation, and environmental degradation.
RoyOn Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 12:33 PM, Jeffrey Flintjeffrey.flint@gmail.com mailto:jeffrey.flint@gmail.com wrote: I always find it interesting that people often differentiate between, segregate, “humans” and “nature” as if humans are not a part of nature.
Similarly, people often differentiate and segregate “humans” and “government” as if humans were not a part of government, as if in fact the government was not made of humans. The ills and promise of governments are all very human. Governments are organized humans.
Governments are not a lost cause; the Constitution of the USA shows that to be the case. It is possible to create a “governmental technology” that protects humans from themselves.
Jeff··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/the-permission-society/21838/8
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