Hi Starchild, you write:
That is an intelligent and worthwhile challenge. Will anyone join me?
Bart --
I have been a silent participant of the LPSF discussion group thus far but wanted to let you know that I am a member of the Republican County Central Committee and would be more than willing to help you get involved. I have libertarian inclinations (worked for Cato, have written for Reason Magazine, etc.) and would love to see the GOP move towards the free market wing.
Let me know how I might help and we definitely welcome your attendance at the meetings.
Best,
Jen DePalma
kv6lee@... wrote:
Hi Starchild, you write:
That is an intelligent and worthwhile challenge. Will anyone join me?
Bart --
I have been a silent participant of the LPSF discussion group thus
far but wanted to let you know that I am a member of the Republican
County Central Committee and would be more than willing to help you
get involved. I have libertarian inclinations (worked for Cato, have
written for Reason Magazine, etc.) and would love to see the GOP move
towards the free market wing.
Let me know how I might help and we definitely welcome your
attendance at the meetings.
Best,
Jen DePalma
Ms. DePalma-
May another libertarian take that as a general invitation? If so, a
transgender woman whose habit is a cosmopolitan desire to explore all
perspectives in society might actually interest in attending a
meeting or two- I'm afraid long term participation is not a
possibility, as my own cultural loyalties lie committedly elsewhere.
But friendship and goodwill are possible- I am impressed by the
counterculturalist Starchild having the idealism to believe reaching
out to all people is worthwhile, and the principle to include
Republicans. This is an ideal I share; I often look to the anicent
world and hope that Protagoras' maxim is still possible: (adjusting
the gender) "I am a woman, and nothing human is foreign to me."
my regards,
Jeanine Ring )(*)(
'stand for what you're worth'
If you're going to try to convert people of other parties to believe in freedom, wouldn't it make more sense to start with people that believe in social freedom and convince them of the value of economic freedom, than to start with people that believe in economic freedom and convince them of the value of social freedom?
Personally, I've been able to reason with individual Democrats and Greens and convince them that economic freedom is a better path towards their goals. But I've yet to get a single Republican to change their opinions on social issues, which are typically mired in religious and jingoist dogma - things that are impervious to reason.
-- Steve
It is definitely a general invitation.
It is good to have alliances across parties -- much more conducive to actually getting things done in a productive manner, rather than merely playing politics, I think. Plus, I think particularly for the Republican Party perhaps, it is good for us to be receptive to the involvement of people who are not members of the party -- both because I think that will help shift the GOP more towards the free market wing and also because I'd like others to know that there really are Republicans of all stripes out there and that more of us are socially liberal (particularly here in California) than we are commonly portrayed to be.
Jeanie Ring <jeanie_ring@...> wrote:
Bart --
I have been a silent participant of the LPSF discussion group thus
far but wanted to let you know that I am a member of the Republican
County Central Committee and would be more than willing to help you
get involved. I have libertarian inclinations (worked for Cato, have
written for Reason Magazine, etc.) and would love to see the GOP move
towards the free market wing.
Let me know how I might help and we definitely welcome your
attendance at the meetings.
Best,
Jen DePalma
Ms. DePalma-
May another libertarian take that as a general invitation? If so, a
transgender woman whose habit is a cosmopolitan desire to explore all
perspectives in society might actually interest in attending a
meeting or two- I'm afraid long term participation is not a
possibility, as my own cultural loyalties lie committedly elsewhere.
But friendship and goodwill are possible- I am impressed by the
counterculturalist Starchild having the idealism to believe reaching
out to all people is worthwhile, and the principle to include
Republicans. This is an ideal I share; I often look to the anicent
world and hope that Protagoras' maxim is still possible: (adjusting
the gender) "I am a woman, and nothing human is foreign to me."
my regards,
Jeanine Ring )(*)(
'stand for what you're worth'
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I hadn't been thinking of it from that angle. My thinking is more along the lines that the GOP has a history of supporting economic freedom (as least more than the Ds do), there is a foundation of small government there. If we can bring more people into the fold, so to speak, who support economic liberty and mobilize the members that are not the religious right we already have a base to start from. I really don't know how one would begin getting the Ds to build on a foundation of economic freedom.
I am one of those people who thinks that supporting and increasing economic freedom is a major piece of supporting social freedom. If we have economic freedom, social freedom will progress despite all of the work of the social right. Once we lose economic freedom social freedoms are gone. At whatever level (individual households, state - federal, etc.) once someone starts giving you money they feel a right to have some control over what you do.
Steve Dekorte <steve@...> wrote:
If you're going to try to convert people of other parties to believe in
freedom, wouldn't it make more sense to start with people that believe
in social freedom and convince them of the value of economic freedom,
than to start with people that believe in economic freedom and convince
them of the value of social freedom?
Personally, I've been able to reason with individual Democrats and
Greens and convince them that economic freedom is a better path towards
their goals. But I've yet to get a single Republican to change their
opinions on social issues, which are typically mired in religious and
jingoist dogma - things that are impervious to reason.
-- Steve
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
If you're going to try to convert people of other parties to
believe in freedom, wouldn't it make more sense to start with people
that believe in social freedom and convince them of the value of
economic freedom, than to start with people that believe in economic
freedom and convince them of the value of social freedom?
Personally, I've been able to reason with individual Democrats and
Greens and convince them that economic freedom is a better path
towards their goals. But I've yet to get a single Republican to
change their opinions on social issues, which are typically mired in
religious and jingoist dogma - things that are impervious to reason.
-- Steve
Msr. Dekorte-
That certainly has been my experience, and I think for very basic
reasons; 'tho the influence is reciprical, I think that
ultimately 'tis one's view of the social beneficence of the passions
(and interests), against the creeds of original sin and self-control,
that are more basic than one's political views. One's allegiages to
social forms where the search for happiness it let free rein versus
those where 'idle hands are the Devil's workshop' is to me more a
first principle. Freedom is ultimately more essentially about how
one lives and thinks culture should live than what politics one
supports, and often political freedom itself has been aided more by
the free-spirited than the politically libertarian.
With this in mind, it's not surprising that liberals and
progressives, who are more likely to cherish the lived experience of
freedom, can be more easily swayed to economic freedom... than
conservatives- who often see a free market as a practical means
of 'market discipline' and making people 'respectable bourgeoisie,
can be swayed to the cause social freedom.
Nevertheless, there *are* exceptions. And Starchild reminds me that
energy and openness can go a long way towards doing what many think
impossible. The more capitalist wings of the Republican Party are
sometimes driven by a confidence in one's own will and a commerical
passion that can be very kind towards the concerns of social
liberals. Think of ancient Greece and Rennasaince Italy- both were
fundamentally commercial civilizations, and both precisely because of
this encourages social liberality- think of ancient Corinth and
Medieval Venice. (Unfortunately both extremely patriarchal socieites
that placed women in seclusion, with one exception)
And personally, just getting to know what Republicans qua Republicans
are like qua human beings sounds to me an opportunity for education
and improvement through experience which I can't refuse. People are
usually much better when they are pursuing what really motivates
them, where they can relax among others who won't attack what they
find most joyful in life. I've spent time on the hard-left protest
circuit and with three state libertarian parties, so this young
person thinks having a look at the Republicans in politics under
fairly safe California conditions is a good thing.
Besides, I am a no-nonsense, cold-blooded businesswoman, am I not?
And I known some Republicans who have been very kind and respectful
people.
Cheers and blessed be,
Jeanie Ring )(*)(
I agree, and that is why I don't think the best use of our time is spent preaching to the converted. The most unfortunate thing about the Republican party is that they discredit the economic freedom agenda by associating it with their religious and jingoistic agenda. Since people tend to think in terms of "my enemy's friend is my enemy", a stronger Republican party only strengthens the opposition against everything associated with it, including economic freedom. I I see our role as providing an alternative so people can see that one can support economic freedom without the bigotry and hatred on which the Republican social perspective is based.
-- Steve
Jennifer's credentials as a free marketer are solid (we very much
enjoyed talking with her on the occasion of her running for
Congressional District 8 on the Republican ticket); and the idea of
forging alliances with other political groups is an excellent one.
However, my concern while enjoying this discussion is trying to
determine whether the intention here is for Libertarians to attend
Republican meetings as Libertarians, or re-register as Republicans in
order to have an actual say (vote) at such meetings. The former
sounds like a reasonable strategy. The latter reinforces the
perception that the Libertarian Party is not a viable political
party, and any serious action can only be accomplished through the
two major parties. Personally, I would prefer to continue working
towards enhancing the credibility, and thus the effectiveness, of the
Libertarian Party.
As an aside, it is my opinion that a trueblue Libertarian would not
fare well at any Republican meeting where certain important subjects
are discussed, such as the war in Iraq, gay marriage, abortion,
prayer in public schools, appointment of Supreme Court justices, drug
legalization, or decriminalization of prostitution.
Marcy Berry
> I hadn't been thinking of it from that angle. My thinking is
more
> along the lines that the GOP has a history of supporting economic
> freedom (as least more than the Ds do), there is a foundation of
small
> government there. If we can bring more people into the fold, so
to
> speak, who support economic liberty and mobilize the members that
are
> not the religious right we already have a base to start from.
I agree, and that is why I don't think the best use of our time is
spent preaching to the converted. The most unfortunate thing about
the
Republican party is that they discredit the economic freedom agenda
by
associating it with their religious and jingoistic agenda. Since
people
tend to think in terms of "my enemy's friend is my enemy", a
stronger
Republican party only strengthens the opposition against everything
associated with it, including economic freedom. I I see our role as
providing an alternative so people can see that one can support
economic freedom without the bigotry and hatred on which the
Republican
However, my concern while enjoying this discussion is trying to
determine whether the intention here is for Libertarians to attend
Republican meetings as Libertarians, or re-register as Republicans
in order to have an actual say (vote) at such meetings.
As an aside, it is my opinion that a trueblue Libertarian would not
fare well at any Republican meeting where certain important subjects
are discussed, such as the war in Iraq, gay marriage, abortion,
prayer in public schools, appointment of Supreme Court justices, drug
legalization, or decriminalization of prostitution.
Marcy Berry
LOL! Oh, Msr. Berry, I assure you that you're quite preaching to the
temple here; some may have noticed that this transgender
businesswoman's not precisely on the conservative wing of the
libertarian movement herself. I personally could only attend a
Republican function as a libertarian, even a Libertarian, with
my "Legalize Freedom" button as loud as prudent. (Should I find a
dress business suit first? Most of my more successful colleagues do
adopt it as a class uniform [*gag* me])
That said, please let a girl have her incorrigible good
moods; "practice random acts of kindness and senseless acts of
beauty." I'm sure the dissillusionment will come soon enough, which
in my less than benevolent-universe experience is a good reason not
to bring realism to illusion too quickly. *Sigh*... but as Oscar
Wilde said, "every sentimentalist is a cynic at heart."
But in my case, at least, I think there's little chance that I'll be
seduced to the dark side. Do *I* seem like the kind likely to go
astray?
best regards,
Jeanine Ring )(*)(
P.S. I don't believe elephants *have* arms. Am I the only person
with the tactile imagination to notice this?
Steve Dekorte <steve@d...> wrote:
The most unfortunate thing about the Republican party is that they
discredit the economic freedom agenda by associating it with their
religious and jingoistic agenda. Since people tend to think in terms
of "my enemy's friend is my enemy", a stronger Republican party
only strengthens the opposition against everything associated with
it, including economic freedom. I I see our role as providing an
alternative so people can see that one can support economic freedom
without the bigotry and hatred on which the Republican social
perspective is based.
Well said.
As an aside, it is my opinion that a trueblue Libertarian would not
fare well at any Republican meeting where certain important subjects
are discussed, such as the war in Iraq, gay marriage, abortion,
prayer in public schools, appointment of Supreme Court justices, drug
legalization, or decriminalization of prostitution.
I attended a SF GOP central committee(?) meeting a few years ago
and couldn't get past solemn recitation of the pledge -- of allegiance
that is. I felt sick, even though I didn't participate.
A few years before that I volunteered at one event for the Forbes
'96 campaign. That was ok, as most of the volunteers were libertarian.
(Forbes attempted to sell out to social conservatives in 2000.)
More recently I've thought about attending Democrat functions.
Would be interested to hear from anyone who has.
Dear Jeanine,
Thank you for your reassurances, especially the one about your
continued commitment to random acts of kindness and beauty!...And,
maybe elephants do have arms...how else would they write all that
useless legislation?
Marcy
LOL! Oh, Msr. Berry, I assure you that you're quite preaching to
the
temple here; some may have noticed that this transgender
businesswoman's not precisely on the conservative wing of the
libertarian movement herself. I personally could only attend a
Republican function as a libertarian, even a Libertarian, with
my "Legalize Freedom" button as loud as prudent. (Should I find a
dress business suit first? Most of my more successful colleagues
do
adopt it as a class uniform [*gag* me])
That said, please let a girl have her incorrigible good
moods; "practice random acts of kindness and senseless acts of
beauty." I'm sure the dissillusionment will come soon enough,
which
in my less than benevolent-universe experience is a good reason not
to bring realism to illusion too quickly. *Sigh*... but as Oscar
Wilde said, "every sentimentalist is a cynic at heart."But in my case, at least, I think there's little chance that I'll
be
Dear Jeanine,
Thank you for your reassurances, especially the one about your
continued commitment to random acts of kindness and beauty!...And,
maybe elephants do have arms...how else would they write all that
useless legislation?
Msr. Berry-
Oh, simple. They let their democratic secretaries handle the penwork.
Jeanie.
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, jennifer depalma
<jen_depalma@y...> wrote:
It is definitely a general invitation.
[....]
Jennifer DePalma
mobile 415.377.7702
work 415.616.1118
www.depalmaforcongress.com
Mme. DePalma-
Then I thank you for your invitation. Might I then, to that end, ask
when and where your San Francisco Republican group meets?
Out of a Pagan's respect for the seriousness of all offers of
hospitality, I thank you. May you be well.
my regards,
Jeanie Ring )(*)(
"not all those who wander are lost"
Apologies for not responding to this earlier. I am catching up on emails.
Meetings are supposed to be the second Wednesday of each month at the lower level auditorium of the Hiram Johnson State Office Building, 455 Golden Gate Avenue, at 6:30 p.m. The day has tended to change the last few months.
Next meeting is Thursday, January 13 at 6.30pm at the above location.
We are electing officers. Don't know if that makes the meeting more or less interesting to attend.
Jeanie Ring <jeanie_ring@...> wrote:
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, jennifer depalma
<jen_depalma@y...> wrote:
It is definitely a general invitation.
[....]
Jennifer DePalma
mobile 415.377.7702
work 415.616.1118
www.depalmaforcongress.com
Mme. DePalma-
Then I thank you for your invitation. Might I then, to that end, ask
when and where your San Francisco Republican group meets?
Out of a Pagan's respect for the seriousness of all offers of
hospitality, I thank you. May you be well.
my regards,
Jeanie Ring )(*)(
"not all those who wander are lost"
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