Slightly Off Topic and Out Of Kilter - Hitler's Indian Restaurant

Discussion
1

Dear Everyone;

A ways back while we were discussing new meeting places the name of the restaurant of Mao Tse Tsung came up and the place was passed over mainly because of the name. Well here's an article about a restaurant in India - named Hitler's Cross - it should be noted that the Haken Kreuse used by Hitler is an ancient Hindu symbol for luck and is very common throughout India.

Visitng Mao Tse Tsung's seems tame in comparison?!?!? :slight_smile:

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14498419/?GT1=8404

India’s Hitler-themed eatery to get new name
Restaurant named for Nazi leader meant to attract attention, says owner
The Associated Press

Updated: 7:58 a.m. PT Aug 24, 2006
BOMBAY, India - The owner of a restaurant named after Adolf Hitler said Thursday he will change its name because it angered so many people.
Puneet Sablok said he would remove Hitler’s name and the Nazi swastika from billboards and the menu. He had said the restaurant’s name — “Hitler’s Cross” — and symbols were only meant to attract attention.
Sablok made the decision after meeting with members of Bombay’s small Jewish community.
“Once they told me how upset they were with the name, I decided to change it,” he said. “I don’t want to do business by hurting people.”
Sablok said he had not yet decided on a new name.
Hitler’s Cross opened five days ago and serves pizza, salad and pastries in Navi Mumbai, a suburb of Bombay, also known as Mumbai.
On Thursday, Bombay’s Jewish community welcomed Sablok’s decision to rename his restaurant.
“He realized he made a mistake and listened to reason,” said Elijah Jacob, a community leader. “Some people have wrong conceptions of history and he realized it was not appropriate.”
Bombay’s Jews had called the theme of the restaurant offensive and demanded a name change. There are about 5,500 Jews in India, with about 4,500 of them living in Bombay.
“I never wanted to hurt people’s feelings,” said Sablok.
Some Indians regard Hitler as just another historical figure and have little knowledge about the Holocaust, in which 6 million European Jews were systematically killed during World War II.
The swastika symbol, which was appropriated by the Nazis, was originally an ancient Hindu symbol and it is displayed all over India to bring luck.
© 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
URL: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14498419/?GT1=8404

2

The swastika, or sun-wheel, is indeed an old symbol and in various forms can be found in use all over the world. I know a tattoo artist in San Francisco, a very progressive and certainly anti-racist guy, whose workspace is decorated with swastiskas and actually has a book on hand titled ‘the gentle swastika’ to explain the history to visitors.

The symbol shouldn’t be uniquely associated with the Nazis, altho’ the Nazi use of the symbol does make perfect sense.

I don’t particularly love the sun cross myself, but that’s a different matter.

love and strife,

Lady Aster

{)(*)(}

*Freude, sch�ner G�tterfunken*
*Tochter aus Elysium,*
*Wir betreten feuertrunken,*
*Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!*
*Deine Zauber binden wieder*
*Was die Mode streng geteilt.*
*Alle Menschen werden Br�der*
*Wo dein sanfter Fl�gel weilt.*

email ms_shiris@…

3

Dear Lady Aster;

As an addition to what you said even Native American Indian tribes used the symbol. It does go to show how when evil co-opts sacred symbols the evil use is emblazoned on the collective of mankind - not the good uses as I am certain the book " the gentle swastika" highlights.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

4

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5

Dear Derek;

Only 70 million? I guess we can still eat at the restaurant with
that name without it implying we endorsed Mao's death squads and the
Little Red Book revolutionaries?

That's like not eating at an Italian Pizza place because Mussolini
was Italian and only got a couple hundred thousand Italians killed
during WWII.

What's in a name as the old saying goes? It's people intolerance is
what's the problem.

AFterall Hitler did have a hormonal imbalance where he, Stalin and
Churchill managed a menage a trois. But those stories never made it
to the light of day.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@...>
wrote:

Except both Mao was responsible for many more deaths (up to 70

million by

some estimates). But as he never iliberated Iraq, had zero

involvement with

Haliburton, and never had Don Rumsfeld on his staff, I suppose

you're

willing to give him a pass.

>
> Dear Lady Aster;
>
> As an addition to what you said even Native American Indian

tribes used

> the symbol. It does go to show how when evil co-opts sacred

symbols the evil

> use is emblazoned on the collective of mankind - not the good

uses as I am

> certain the book " the gentle swastika" highlights.
>
> [image: Whirling Log] [image: Leather Stamps]
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
> From: Lady Aster <ms_shiris@...>
> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 4:45:05 PM
> Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Slightly Off Topic and Out Of

Kilter -

> Hitler's Indian Restaurant
>
> The swastika, or sun-wheel, is indeed an old symbol and in

various forms

> can be found in use all over the world. I know a tattoo artist

in San

> Francisco, a very progressive and certainly anti-racist guy,

whose workspace

> is decorated with swastiskas and actually has a book on hand

titled 'the

> gentle swastika' to explain the history to visitors.
>
> The symbol shouldn't be uniquely associated with the Nazis,

altho' the

> Nazi use of the symbol does make perfect sense.
>
> I don't particularly love the sun cross myself, but that's a

different

> matter.
>
> love and strife,
>
> *Lady Aster*
>
> {*)*(***)*(*}
> *Freude, schöner Götterfunken * *Tochter aus Elysium, * *Wir

betreten

> feuertrunken, * *Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! * *Deine Zauber

binden wieder

> * *Was die Mode streng geteilt.* *Alle Menschen werden Brüder*

*Wo dein

> sanfter Flügel weilt.*
>
> email ms_shiris@...
>
> ------------------------------
> From: *Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...>*
> Reply-To: *lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com*
> To: *Libertarian Yahoo Group <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>*
> Subject: *[lpsf-discuss] Slightly Off Topic and Out Of Kilter -

Hitler's

> Indian Restaurant*
> Date: *Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:16:19 -0700 (PDT)*
>
> Dear Everyone;
>
>
>
> A ways back while we were discussing new meeting places the name

of the

> restaurant of Mao Tse Tsung came up and the place was passed

over mainly

> because of the name. Well here's an article about a restaurant

in India -

> named Hitler's Cross - it should be noted that the Haken Kreuse

used by

> Hitler is an ancient Hindu symbol for luck and is very common

throughout

> India.
>
>
>
> Visitng Mao Tse Tsung's seems tame in comparison?! ?!? :slight_smile:
>
>
>
> Ron Getty
>
> SF Libertarian
>
>
>
> http://msnbc. msn.com/id/ 14498419/ ?

GT1=8404<http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14498419/?GT1=8404>

>
>
>
> India’s Hitler-themed eatery to get new name
>
> Restaurant named for Nazi leader meant to attract attention,

says owner

>
> The Associated Press
>
>
>
> Updated: 7:58 a.m. PT Aug 24, 2006
>
> BOMBAY, India - The owner of a restaurant named after Adolf

Hitler said

> Thursday he will change its name because it angered so many

people.

>
> Puneet Sablok said he would remove Hitler’s name and the Nazi

swastika

> from billboards and the menu. He had said the restaurant’s

name â€"

> “Hitler’s Cross†â€" and symbols were only meant to attract

attention.

>
> Sablok made the decision after meeting with members of

Bombay’s small

> Jewish community.
>
> “Once they told me how upset they were with the name, I

decided to

> change it,†he said. “I don’t want to do business by hurting
> people.â€
>
> Sablok said he had not yet decided on a new name.
>
> Hitler’s Cross opened five days ago and serves pizza, salad

and pastries

> in Navi Mumbai, a suburb of Bombay, also known as Mumbai.
>

Elijah

> Jacob, a community leader. “Some people have wrong conceptions

of history

> and he realized it was not appropriate.â€
>
> Bombay’s Jews had called the theme of the restaurant offensive

and

> demanded a name change. There are about 5,500 Jews in India,

with about

> 4,500 of them living in Bombay.
>
> “I never wanted to hurt people’s feelings,†said Sablok.
>
> Some Indians regard Hitler as just another historical figure and

have

> little knowledge about the Holocaust, in which 6 million

European Jews were

> systematically killed during World War II.
>
> The swastika symbol, which was appropriated by the Nazis, was

originally

> an ancient Hindu symbol and it is displayed all over India to

bring luck.

>
> *Â(c) 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This

material may not

> be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.*
>
> URL: http://msnbc. msn.com/id/ 14498419/ ?

GT1=8404<http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14498419/?GT1=8404>

>
>
>
>
>
> Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search: Try it now!

<http://g.msn.com/8HMBENUS/2728??PS=47575>

6

Yes, well said.

love and strife,

Lady Aster

{)(*)(}

*Freude, sch�ner G�tterfunken*
*Tochter aus Elysium,*
*Wir betreten feuertrunken,*
*Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!*
*Deine Zauber binden wieder*
*Was die Mode streng geteilt.*
*Alle Menschen werden Br�der*
*Wo dein sanfter Fl�gel weilt.*

email ms_shiris@…

7

I’d also like to point out 'tis not just evil groups who coopt symbols.

The Libertarian Party’s Lady Liberty is also an accurate usage of an older symbol, in a somewhat narrowed if refined form.

Emma Lazarus’ poem gets the history perfectly:

*Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,*
*With conquering limbs astride from land to land;*
_Here at our **sea-washed**, **sunset gate**s shall stand_
_**A mighty woman with a torch**, whose flame_
*Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name*
_**Mother of Exiles**. From her beacon-hand_
*Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command*
_The **air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame**._
*"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she*
*With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,*
*Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,*
*The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.*
*Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,*
_**I lift my lamp beside the golden door!**"_

How many libertarians ask precisely who’s this Liberty whose statue this is? One must love a girl who carries a torch.

love and strife,

Lady Aster

{)(*)(}

*Freude, sch�ner G�tterfunken*
*Tochter aus Elysium,*
*Wir betreten feuertrunken,*
*Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!*
*Deine Zauber binden wieder*
*Was die Mode streng geteilt.*
*Alle Menschen werden Br�der*
*Wo dein sanfter Fl�gel weilt.*

email ms_shiris@…

8

Dear Lady Aster,

While the Liberatrain party co-opted the staute - they aren't the only ones.

There's a guy on Geary Blvd who has a tax service and each year at tax time either he or a staff person dresses up as Liberty and stands on the island in the middle of Geary pointing over to his tax service office.

Then there are the people who dress up as Liberty - and you don't know if they are for freedom - for immigration - or just like to cross dress because it feels good. Yowzah - talk about hormonal imbalances!

I am willing to bet that anti-immigration Senators and Representatives if shown the poem Lady Liberty carries on her tablet wouldn't have a clue as to what it was or where it was.

While Lady Liberty carries a torch - I wonder who she's carrying the torch for? Blindfolded LAdy Justice or ??? :slight_smile:

It would be nice if the Libertarian Party who uses Lady Liberty as a symbol would allow the implied freedom to allow its members to clean house as needed!

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

9

It would be nice if the Libertarian Party who uses Lady Liberty as a symbol would allow the implied freedom to allow its members to clean house as needed!

Could you please explain what you mean by this?

love and strife,

Lady Aster

{)(*)(}

*Freude, sch�ner G�tterfunken*
*Tochter aus Elysium,*
*Wir betreten feuertrunken,*
*Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!*
*Deine Zauber binden wieder*
*Was die Mode streng geteilt.*
*Alle Menschen werden Br�der*
*Wo dein sanfter Fl�gel weilt.*

email ms_shiris@…

10

Dear Lady Aster,

Based on the convention it appears genuine non-aggression non-invasion get out of the world militarily wise Libertarians need the liberty to clean out those who ain't for non-aggression and welcome Libertarians who only support non-entangling alliances like free-trade Libertarians among free-trade peoples of the world without any governemnt interference.

Free trade - No militray alliances and USA out of Iraq and Afghanistan and the other 130 countries around the world the USA has militray troops in on or under.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

11

Well, I don’t love the ‘cleaning out’ metaphor, but I am certainly among those who believe that a Libertarian Party which is not Libertarian is worthless. After the Portland Massacre, the only choices I see are to mount an effort to retake the Party or to abandon ship.

I personally do not want to be part of an organisation where I don’t know that legal tolerance for my life isn’t a basic minimum of membership. A merely libertarianistic LP is one where I may not walk openly or freely… I will never know when the next ‘libertarian’ might have prostitution as his or her ‘one statist issue’ and then go call the cops.

Ironically, tho’ I lean anti-war myself and am certainly against the current American Empire, I’m not quite convinced the war issue is one where there’s no room for libertarian argument. But my general impression of ‘pro-war’ libertarians is that with a few exceptions (San Francisco’s Tim Starr and Starchild being among them) they are mostly wrapped up in dominator psychology.

love and strife,

Lady Aster

{)(*)(}

*Freude, sch�ner G�tterfunken*
*Tochter aus Elysium,*
*Wir betreten feuertrunken,*
*Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!*
*Deine Zauber binden wieder*
*Was die Mode streng geteilt.*
*Alle Menschen werden Br�der*
*Wo dein sanfter Fl�gel weilt.*

email ms_shiris@…

12

Not really sure that I can be down with that. The last thing the LP should do is excommunicate people. Besides, different libertarians believe different things; while I am not pro-war myself I don't think being "hawkish" necessarily disqualifies you from being a "real" libertarian, whatever that means. The logical conclusion of this "let's ban the impure" argument would be a party only open to anarcho-capitalists.

Jeremy

13

Dear Jeremey;

In the previous e-mail you wrote in part: The logical conclusion of this "let's ban the impure" argument would be a party only open to anarcho-capitalists.

My personal take on that is if I could sound like Meg Ryan in her famous deli scene from "When Harry Met Sally" :
YES! YES! YES! (table pounding not needed)

As long as your statement could be modified to read radical anarcho-capitalists.

BTW: so what's the big deal with Big Tent Libertarianism - look what it gots us at Portland??? AHA!!!

We need a new Libertarian Party from the grass roots up a popular mass movement of the down trodden and woe begone and the put downers who got sold a bill of goods that the government would look after them and take care of them because they are different and not tolerated by the intolerant who are intolerant of people who are different.

We need a New Liberty Libertarian Party with a grizzly bear as its symbol - because the grizzly bear like the 500 lb gorilla can go wherever it wishes and do whatever it wants to do and even can go poop in the woods whenever it wants.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

14

Dear Lady Aster;

See my reply to Jeremy re Libertarian Party and what I think needs to be done. Certainly there are those who will say work within to change the Party. But to much time work and energy needed to overcome the inertia of gosh we are in the middle of the stream - why changes horses?

Re-start from the bottom up.

Realistically wise there can be no such thing as a pro-war Libertarian for a true blue dyed in the wool toe the line toes to the fire Libertarian - just read some of the brilliant essays Murray Rothbard has written showing the fallacy about "war" libertarians or others have written on Lew Rockwell. There isn't no such an animal nor can there be if you are a believer in Libertarianism.

Total tolerance for who or what you are or want to be is what real Libertarinism is about. You gets to do your own thing so long as your thing doesn't disturb other peoples things.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

15

I share your sentiments about maintaining principle in the Party. As for anti-war issues, there are two cases which make me queasy on the issue- the first is the possibility of using armed force to overthrow a totalitarian state; the second is the issue of a pre-emptive strike against a known aggressor. I admit I’d feel more comfortable being able to be clearly anti-war, because I view a military as an inherently evil tool (not because of its violence but because of its patriarchy and authoritarianism). I’d also prefer some sort of anarchist community defense solution to warfare as we know it, but I’m afraid situations requiring a foreign policy are not going to go away until anarchism is achieved (incidentally I’m an individualist anarchist, not an anarcho-capitalist).

But let me play Devil’s advocate- I feel as strongly on abortion rights as you do on opposition to war. I feel that someone who is not pro-choice is not a libertarian and feel extremely uncomfortable in such a person’s presence. I might well be tempted to support purging the Party of ‘pro-lifers’. The only trouble with this is: by the time I’m purged the pro-lifers, and you’d purged the pro-warriors, and someone else purged the anti-immigrants and someone else again purged the supporters of ‘intellectual property rights’, we wouldn’t have much of a Party left. Starchild, for instance, is moderately pro-war and moderately anti-abortion, and the second stance makes me very angry sometimes. But he’s also on balance a force for good in the LP.

I’m very much in favor of the pledge and a robust platform, so it is clear where the party stands- but I’m not in favour of purges.

I’m quite aware that my stance is open to question on many principled grounds; I’m also aware of how much this debate is beginning to resemble the European wars of religion of the XVI-XVII centuries. The fact that principle and peace seem both so difficut to maintain while one is involved in party politics is one reason I’m becoming skeptical of political parties at all.

love and strife,

Lady Aster

{)(*)(}

*Freude, sch�ner G�tterfunken*
*Tochter aus Elysium,*
*Wir betreten feuertrunken,*
*Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!*
*Deine Zauber binden wieder*
*Was die Mode streng geteilt.*
*Alle Menschen werden Br�der*
*Wo dein sanfter Fl�gel weilt.*

email ms_shiris@…

16

Dear Ron,

You mention that what we need is new political party. The way I
understand the fallout from the LP Convention is that some really
distressed purists left the LP and created a new political party
called the "Boston Tea Party." The Reformers are delighted, since
come new LP Convention, no purists, just Reformers. So, there is your
new political party, and a shake out seems inevitable.

Marcy

Dear Jeremey;

In the previous e-mail you wrote in part: The logical conclusion

of this "let's ban the impure" argument would be a party only open to
anarcho-capitalists.

My personal take on that is if I could sound like Meg Ryan in her

famous deli scene from "When Harry Met Sally" :

YES! YES! YES! (table pounding not needed)

As long as your statement could be modified to read radical

anarcho-capitalists.

BTW: so what's the big deal with Big Tent Libertarianism - look what

it gots us at Portland??? AHA!!!

We need a new Libertarian Party from the grass roots up a popular

mass movement of the down trodden and woe begone and the put downers
who got sold a bill of goods that the government would look after them
and take care of them because they are different and not tolerated by
the intolerant who are intolerant of people who are different.

We need a New Liberty Libertarian Party with a grizzly bear as its

symbol - because the grizzly bear like the 500 lb gorilla can go
wherever it wishes and do whatever it wants to do and even can go poop
in the woods whenever it wants.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

From: Jeremy Linden <jlinden@...>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 1:05:44 PM
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Slightly Off Topic and Out Of Kilter -

Hitler's Indian Restaurant

> Dear Lady Aster,
>
> Based on the convention it appears genuine non-aggression

non-invasion

> get out of the world militarily wise Libertarians need the liberty to
> clean out those who ain't for non-aggression and welcome Libertarians
> who only support non-entangling alliances like free-trade

Libertarians

> among free-trade peoples of the world without any governemnt
> interference.
>
> Free trade - No militray alliances and USA out of Iraq and

Afghanistan

> and the other 130 countries around the world the USA has militray

troops

> in on or under.

Not really sure that I can be down with that. The last thing the LP
should do is excommunicate people. Besides, different libertarians
believe different things; while I am not pro-war myself I don't think
being "hawkish" necessarily disqualifies you from being a "real"
libertarian, whatever that means. The logical conclusion of this

"let's

17

I think the 1974 Dallas accord between the anarchists and minarchists in the LP struck precisely the right balance. The Libertarian Party should advocate getting rid of rights-violating aspects of government, and not support per se the existence of any government, but also not preclude support for a minimal "night watchman" state along the lines of the government described by the U.S. Constitution.

  I agree with Jeremy that there is no need to excommunicate anyone. We should generally seek and welcome support from as many people as possible. However I would like to see tighter ideological standards for people running as LP candidates, holding internal party office, or voting on party policy.

  Such standards might be along the lines of requiring people seeking such positions to pledge that they believe in the overall approach of non-aggression, favor greatly reducing or eliminating government, and agree with most LP platform planks, in order to secure the blessing of the party. Where they disagree on a specific issue, they should also be required to clearly distinguish their own position from that of the LP when communicating with the public.

Love & liberty,
        <<< starchild >>>

18

Dear Lady Aster;

Your skepticism is very well accepted and not undue when it comes to political parties and the people who join political parties. Everyone no matter what they say has a political agenda for the reasons they joined up. Other items would include the fellowship and camaraderie and the attempts sometimes successful to effect change and maybe be a voice heard crying in the wilderness.

Using force to overthrow a totalitarian state or a pre-emptive strike against a known aggressor is still outside the pale as far as true Libertarianism is concerned unless the totalitarian or the aggressor actually attacked the USA. Otherwise any such attacks are verboten by true Libertarians. It is cut and dried as that - no equivicating allowed or what ifs....

On the matter of abortion rights I take the stance that there should be no laws pro or con on the issue and each woman should be able to decide for herself based on her personal situation as to what she must do. In other words any and every law conserning abortion should be stricken from the books as an untoward invasionnof a person personal rights to decide for themselves and take responsibility for their persoanl decison - without the STATE interferring.

If that gets the knickers of Libertarians twisted up too bad - Libertarianism is about personal responsibility - not what the STATE would have you do by any imposition of any law.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

In Closing:

Lysander Spooner had this to say about laws in general which is apropos:

Lysander Spooner in his essay, "Natural Law; or The Science of Justice" (1882) in his powerful concluding paragraph:
"What, then, is legislation? It is an assumption by one man, or body of men, of absolute, irresponsible dominion over all other men whom they call subject to their power.
It is the assumption by one man, or body of men, of a right to subject all other men to their will and their service.
It is the assumption by one man, or body of men, of a right to abolish outright all the natural rights, all the natural liberty of all other men; to make all other men their slaves; to arbitrarily dictate to all other men what they may, and may not, do; what they may, and may not, have; what they may, and may not, be.
It is, in short, the assumption of a right to banish the principle of human rights, the principle of justice itself, from off the earth, and set up their own personal will, pleasure, and interest in its place.
All this, and nothing less, is involved in the very idea that there can be any such thing as human legislation that is obligatory upon those upon whom it is imposed."

19

Dear Marcy;

As the old Elvis Presley song title went: Let's : Shake Rattle and Roll!!!

It was sad moment when delusional Reformers took over and drove the Proud Purists out into the darkened night - but the Boston Tea Party? My goodness gracious - such a lame name.

As a result thereof and henceforth whereby I will stand by my earlier statements about the need for a grass roots Libertarian mass movement political party and until such time as formed and active will deal with the revoluting Reformers as needed California wise and National wise.

Ah Yes - I love the smell of burning political parties first thing in the morning.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

20

Dear Starchild;

Well said - and sticking to removing the rights violating aspects of government isn't a bad idea - but how do you dissolve the rights violating Bush Regime?

And a minimalist government of the US Constitution is also great.

And an adherence to the most basic principles of Libertariansim for LP candidates and elected party officials and for voting on party matters should be de-rigor if not de-rigormortis.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian