Resolution on Trump matter

Dear fellow Libertarians,

Many of you may have blindsided, as we were, by media reports about Donald Trump being invited to speak at the Libertarian Party’s upcoming national convention happening May 23-26 in Washington D.C.

A Washington Post story, among many others, describes some of the strife this has caused in our party – https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/07/trump-libertarian-national-convention/?_pml=1. I actually read through the hundreds of comments posted in response to this story, and their overwhelmingly negative takes reflect how much of a black eye this boneheaded move has been for the LP. Reaction was roughly divided between those saying libertarians have always been conservatives or Republicans in sheep’s clothing, and this just proves it, and those dismayed by how a figure as un-libertarian as Trump would be featured at a Libertarian convention.

At our meeting yesterday, the Libertarian Party of San Francisco adopted the following resolution on the matter:

···

On May 1, the national Libertarian Party issued a press release announcing that Donald Trump would be speaking at the 2024 national Libertarian Party convention, happening May 23-25 in Washington D.C. (https://www.lp.org/president-trump-to-address-libertarian-party-concerns-at-national-convention-may-25th/)

The Libertarian Party of San Francisco hereby condemns this invitation, and adds our voice those calling for it to be rescinded.

While we would welcome Trump or any other candidate of the 2-party cartel coming to an LP convention to participate in a debate with Libertarian candidates seeking the office for which they are running, that is not what is scheduled in Washington D.C.

Donald Trump refused to debate Gary Johnson in 2016 or Jo Jorgensen in 2020, and he is not coming to our D.C. convention to debate the Libertarians seeking the nomination this cycle, but is simply being given carte blanche to address our delegates in the manner of his choosing.

Furthermore, although Joe Biden and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. have also been invited to speak at the convention, this may have been done as an afterthought to justify inviting Trump. Other presidential candidates, including Jill Stein of the Green Party and independent candidate Cornel West, have not been invited.

The Libertarian Party is increasingly at risk of being associated with the Republican Party and right-wing politics, and we believe this is not only at odds with our mission of promoting freedom and the Non-Aggression Principle, but will harm our ability to appeal to people across the political spectrum.

Please feel free to publicize this, or borrow any of the language for resolutions or statements of your own. I look forward to seeing those of you in D.C. who can make it. Hopefully we’ll be able to make some lemonade out of this big orange lemon that’s been dumped on us.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))
Chair, Libertarian Party of San Francisco
(415) 573-7997

I understand that some people hate Trump, some far beyond reason.

My top priority is gun rights. Without guns, there is no concrete
guarantee of freedom. As Chairman Mao correctly noted: “All power
flows from the barrel of a gun.” I.e., who has guns has the power.
That power belongs in the hands of the people.

Trump nominated three Supreme Court Justices who correctly follow the
law in interpreting the Second Amendment. A major result is the
NYSRPA v Bruen decision which can be used to overturn nearly every gun
law since only laws that have a historical analog in 1791 are now
Constitutional. And there were almost no gun laws in 1791. Therefore
almost all of the infringements since then can be overturned. There
are myriad lawsuits already pending to overturn the tens of thousands
of state, federal and local infringements, and more are following.

Trump also significantly reduced taxes and regulations and increased
jobs and improved the economy before the pandemic.

I consider both of those to be libertarian actions, and significant
ones.

Is Trump a perfect libertarian? Absolutely not. No one elected is.
Not Mike Lee, not Rand Paul, etc. Even libertarians elected to local
city councils do things that are not absolutely purely libertarian.

Again, I understand some people hate Trump, some (very) irrationally
so.

I have no problem with Trump speaking with libertarians. I support
freedom of expression, even when I disagree with what’s said. IMO
that’s a libertarian position.

In Liberty,

Jeff C.

···

On Sun, 2024-05-12 at 23:12 -0700, Starchild wrote:

Dear fellow Libertarians,

    Many of you may have blindsided, as we were, by media

reports about Donald Trump being invited to speak at the Libertarian
Party’s upcoming national convention happening May 23-26 in
Washington D.C.

    A Washington Post story, among many others, describes some

of the strife this has caused in our party –
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/07/trump-libertarian-national-convention/?_pml=1
. I actually read through the hundreds of comments posted in
response to this story, and their overwhelmingly negative takes
reflect how much of a black eye this boneheaded move has been for
the LP. Reaction was roughly divided between those saying
libertarians have always been conservatives or Republicans in
sheep’s clothing, and this just proves it, and those dismayed by how
a figure as un-libertarian as Trump would be featured at a
Libertarian convention.

    At our meeting yesterday, the Libertarian Party of San

Francisco adopted the following resolution on the matter:


On May 1, the national Libertarian Party issued a press release
announcing that Donald Trump would be speaking at the 2024 national
Libertarian Party convention, happening May 23-25 in Washington D.C.
(
https://www.lp.org/president-trump-to-address-libertarian-party-conce
rns-at-national-convention-may-25th/)

The Libertarian Party of San Francisco hereby condemns this
invitation, and adds our voice those calling for it to be rescinded.

While we would welcome Trump or any other candidate of the 2-party
cartel coming to an LP convention to participate in a debate with
Libertarian candidates seeking the office for which they are
running, that is not what is scheduled in Washington D.C.

Donald Trump refused to debate Gary Johnson in 2016 or Jo Jorgensen
in 2020, and he is not coming to our D.C. convention to debate the
Libertarians seeking the nomination this cycle, but is simply being
given carte blanche to address our delegates in the manner of his
choosing.

Furthermore, although Joe Biden and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. have also
been invited to speak at the convention, this may have been done as
an afterthought to justify inviting Trump. Other presidential
candidates, including Jill Stein of the Green Party and independent
candidate Cornel West, have not been invited.

The Libertarian Party is increasingly at risk of being associated
with the Republican Party and right-wing politics, and we believe
this is not only at odds with our mission of promoting freedom and
the Non-Aggression Principle, but will harm our ability to appeal to
people across the political spectrum.

    Please feel free to publicize this, or borrow any of the

language for resolutions or statements of your own. I look forward
to seeing those of you in D.C. who can make it. Hopefully we’ll be
able to make some lemonade out of this big orange lemon that’s been
dumped on us.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))
Chair, Libertarian Party of San Francisco
(415) 573-7997


Jeff Chan
mailto:jeffc@supranet.net
https://jeffchan.com

I am not upset that Donald Trump and Robert Kennedy, Jr. will be speaking
at the Libertarian National Convention. I would not even have been upset
if Joe Biden had also accepted the speaking invitation. It doesn’t hurt to
hear what they say, and in fact they will very likely tailor their remarks
to appeal to libertarians. That’s a good thing, since they are seeking our
support rather than vice versa. Their speeches will attract a lot of media
attention. Let’s try to move them and their supporters in a libertarian
direction.

Nor am I upset that Jill Stein and Cornel West were not invited. In
politics you punch up, not down. The Libertarian Party wants to be seen in
the same league as the major candidates, not the little fringe candidates
and parties that are below us. The fact that Trump and Kennedy are coming
to us supports that narrative. (Everyone understands that Biden will try
to hide in his basement again.) Whereas it would have been
counter-productive if the LP had invited Stein and West and they had
refused.

From a libertarian perspective, Donald Trump is a very mixed bag, with lots
to disagree with but also lots to agree with. Certainly he is far superior
to Joe Biden. Here are a few areas that Trump has in common with
libertarians:

  • Cut tax rates and extend the previous cuts that he helped enact.
  • Stop targeting the firearms industry, and stop the federal government
    from trying to circumvent the 2nd Amendment and the recent Supreme Court
    decisions (due to his appointees) protecting it.
  • Shut down the Department of Education (or at least devolve education
    to states and parents).
  • Appoint judges who promise to hew to Constitutional limitations on
    government.
  • Avoid foreign wars, try to settle the war in Ukraine, and not let
    Ukraine join NATO.
  • End the constraints on domestic oil and gas production and
    distribution, and roll back the rules which require transitioning to the
    production of electric vehicles.
  • Eliminate government DEI regulations which create discriminatory,
    racist, and segregationist policies.
  • Stop promoting (and hopefully outlaw) gender-transitioning surgeries
    and related chemical interventions of non-adults.
  • End government censorship of social media.

I won’t be at the National Convention, but I’ll try to catch the speeches
and other stuff which I expect to be live-streamed on X.

Daniel Wiener

···

On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 11:12 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:

Dear fellow Libertarians,

Many of you may have blindsided, as we were, by media reports about Donald
Trump being invited to speak at the Libertarian Party’s upcoming national
convention happening May 23-26 in Washington D.C.

A Washington Post story, among many others, describes some of the strife
this has caused in our party –* https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/07/trump-libertarian-national-convention/?_pml=1
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/07/trump-libertarian-national-convention/?_pml=1*.
I actually read through the hundreds of comments posted in response to this
story, and their overwhelmingly negative takes reflect how much of a black
eye this boneheaded move has been for the LP. Reaction was roughly divided
between those saying libertarians have always been conservatives or
Republicans in sheep’s clothing, and this just proves it, and those
dismayed by how a figure as un-libertarian as Trump would be featured at a
Libertarian convention.

At our meeting yesterday, the Libertarian Party of San Francisco adopted
the following resolution on the matter:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On May 1, the national Libertarian Party issued a press release
announcing that Donald Trump would be speaking at the 2024 national
Libertarian Party convention, happening May 23-25 in Washington
D.C. (https://www.lp.org/president-trump-to-address-libertarian-party-concerns-at-national-
https://www.lp.org/president-trump-to-address-libertarian-party-concerns-at-national-convention-may-25th/)The Libertarian
Party of San Francisco hereby condemns this invitation, and adds our voice
those calling for it to be rescinded.While we would welcome Trump or any
other candidate of the 2-party cartel coming to an LP convention to
participate in a debate with Libertarian candidates seeking the office for
which they are running, that is not what is scheduled in Washington
D.C.Donald Trump refused to debate Gary Johnson in 2016 or Jo Jorgensen in
2020, and he is not coming to our D.C. convention to debate
the Libertarians seeking the nomination this cycle, but is simply
being given carte blanche to address our delegates in the manner of
his choosing.Furthermore, although Joe Biden and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. have
also been invited to speak at the convention, this may have been done as
an afterthought to justify inviting Trump. Other presidential candidates,
including Jill Stein of the Green Party and independent candidate Cornel
West, have not been invited.The Libertarian Party is increasingly at risk
of being associated with the Republican Party and right-wing politics, and
we believe this is not only at odds with our mission of promoting freedom
and the Non-Aggression Principle, but will harm our ability to appeal
to people across the political spectrum.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Please feel free to publicize this, or borrow any of the language for
resolutions or statements of your own. I look forward to seeing those of
you in D.C. who can make it. Hopefully we’ll be able to make some lemonade
out of this big orange lemon that’s been dumped on us.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))
Chair, Libertarian Party of San Francisco
(415) 573-7997

Jeff,

This convention appearance, if it happens – and if it does, he may just appear via video rather than being physically present – won’t be Donald Trump speaking “with” Libertarians, but Trump speaking to Libertarians. And we don’t need him to come to our convention for that. We already have plenty of opportunity to hear and read his blatherings via the media.

Regarding the balance of power between the U.S. government and the American people, which you correctly identify as the reason why gun rights are so important, I think Trump’s positive impact in nominating relatively pro-RKBA justices must be weighed against his willingness to expand and use the guns of government to expand its power over our lives – less accountability for police, more militarized use of force at U.S. borders, etc.

On both the positive and negative sides of this equation, he may not be much different than any other Republican likely to win the White House. But I think his blatant disregard for human rights, the rule of law, and the moral and constitutional limits on presidential power, do go well beyond the norm in the GOP and in U.S. politics generally, as low as that bar already is, and this should be deeply troubling to any libertarian. Whether or not it leads us to “hate” Trump, or merely to have a strong aversion to him returning to the Oval Office, seems like a matter of personal taste or predilection.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

···

On May 13, 2024, at 4:00 PM, Jeff Chan webmaster@rkba.org wrote:

On Sun, 2024-05-12 at 23:12 -0700, Starchild wrote:

Dear fellow Libertarians,

    Many of you may have blindsided, as we were, by media

reports about Donald Trump being invited to speak at the Libertarian
Party’s upcoming national convention happening May 23-26 in
Washington D.C.

    A Washington Post story, among many others, describes some

of the strife this has caused in our party –
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/07/trump-libertarian-national-convention/?_pml=1
. I actually read through the hundreds of comments posted in
response to this story, and their overwhelmingly negative takes
reflect how much of a black eye this boneheaded move has been for
the LP. Reaction was roughly divided between those saying
libertarians have always been conservatives or Republicans in
sheep’s clothing, and this just proves it, and those dismayed by how
a figure as un-libertarian as Trump would be featured at a
Libertarian convention.

    At our meeting yesterday, the Libertarian Party of San

Francisco adopted the following resolution on the matter:


On May 1, the national Libertarian Party issued a press release
announcing that Donald Trump would be speaking at the 2024 national
Libertarian Party convention, happening May 23-25 in Washington D.C.
(
https://www.lp.org/president-trump-to-address-libertarian-party-conce
rns-at-national-convention-may-25th/)

The Libertarian Party of San Francisco hereby condemns this
invitation, and adds our voice those calling for it to be rescinded.

While we would welcome Trump or any other candidate of the 2-party
cartel coming to an LP convention to participate in a debate with
Libertarian candidates seeking the office for which they are
running, that is not what is scheduled in Washington D.C.

Donald Trump refused to debate Gary Johnson in 2016 or Jo Jorgensen
in 2020, and he is not coming to our D.C. convention to debate the
Libertarians seeking the nomination this cycle, but is simply being
given carte blanche to address our delegates in the manner of his
choosing.

Furthermore, although Joe Biden and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. have also
been invited to speak at the convention, this may have been done as
an afterthought to justify inviting Trump. Other presidential
candidates, including Jill Stein of the Green Party and independent
candidate Cornel West, have not been invited.

The Libertarian Party is increasingly at risk of being associated
with the Republican Party and right-wing politics, and we believe
this is not only at odds with our mission of promoting freedom and
the Non-Aggression Principle, but will harm our ability to appeal to
people across the political spectrum.

    Please feel free to publicize this, or borrow any of the

language for resolutions or statements of your own. I look forward
to seeing those of you in D.C. who can make it. Hopefully we’ll be
able to make some lemonade out of this big orange lemon that’s been
dumped on us.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))
Chair, Libertarian Party of San Francisco
(415) 573-7997

I understand that some people hate Trump, some far beyond reason.

My top priority is gun rights. Without guns, there is no concrete
guarantee of freedom. As Chairman Mao correctly noted: “All power
flows from the barrel of a gun.” I.e., who has guns has the power.
That power belongs in the hands of the people.

Trump nominated three Supreme Court Justices who correctly follow the
law in interpreting the Second Amendment. A major result is the
NYSRPA v Bruen decision which can be used to overturn nearly every gun
law since only laws that have a historical analog in 1791 are now
Constitutional. And there were almost no gun laws in 1791. Therefore
almost all of the infringements since then can be overturned. There
are myriad lawsuits already pending to overturn the tens of thousands
of state, federal and local infringements, and more are following.

Trump also significantly reduced taxes and regulations and increased
jobs and improved the economy before the pandemic.

I consider both of those to be libertarian actions, and significant
ones.

Is Trump a perfect libertarian? Absolutely not. No one elected is.
Not Mike Lee, not Rand Paul, etc. Even libertarians elected to local
city councils do things that are not absolutely purely libertarian.

Again, I understand some people hate Trump, some (very) irrationally
so.

I have no problem with Trump speaking with libertarians. I support
freedom of expression, even when I disagree with what’s said. IMO
that’s a libertarian position.

In Liberty,

Jeff C.

Jeff Chan
mailto:jeffc@supranet.net
https://jeffchan.com

Dan,

You say you aren’t upset that Donald Trump and RFK have been invited to speak at the Libertarian national convention, because “it doesn’t hurt to hear what they say, and in fact they will very likely tailor their remarks to appeal to libertarians.” But the same could be said for Jill Stein and Cornel West, or indeed just about any candidate looking for an audience. With Stein or West, and maybe to some degree with RFK, giving them a platform at our events can arguably help build alternative party solidarity in opposition to the 2-party establishment cartel, but this is not true of Trump or Biden.

I don’t think the “punching up” analogy works, because the real harm being done is to those excluded, not to those invited. When Trump attacks Biden while refusing to debate his other challengers, as he has done all primary season, he is not “punching up”, but “punching down” – harming the alternative parties and lesser-known candidates he refuses to debate by contributing to their marginalization.

This is of course the same thing the Republicans and Democrats have been doing to Libertarians and other alternative parties and candidates for years. Not only is it anti-democratic and intellectually cowardly behavior, but it is behavior that will make us look like hypocrites if we engage in it ourselves while simultaneously complaining about similarly exclusionary tactics employed against us by the 2-party cartel. As another Libertarian candidate slighted by Trump and Biden, Jacob Hornberger did in this excellent op-ed piece on ballot access published yesterday in the Orange County Register:

Libertarianism has a messaging problem. For years, the party and the movement have tended, on the whole, to frame our ideas in a manner that appeals more to people on the political right than to people on the political left. Anyone who understands the Nolan Chart (see graphic below) understands that libertarianism is neither left-wing nor right-wing, but pro-freedom and anti-authoritarian. But when we allow ourselves to get embroiled in the left-vs-right feuding of conventional politics and “culture wars”, this truth can easily be lost – especially if we’re seen as favoring one side over the other.

Many members of the general public, not to mention folks on the left, already see ours as a right-wing movement. Some of this can be attributed to biased media reporting, such as the numerous misleading articles labeling the world’s first self-identified libertarian head of state, Javier Milei, as “far right” or “ultra-conservative”, but some of it is also his fault, and ours, for not presenting the freedom message in a more even-handed and non-partisan manner.

If the perception of libertarianism as right-wing solidifies, and we lose our ability to appeal to people on the left as well as the right, we will lose something of immense political value, far more important than the mere ability to hob-nob with establishment party candidates. We will risk becoming marginalized the way that the Occupy movement on the left, and the Tea Party movement on the right, were respectively.

I’m proud to have spoken as a Libertarian at both Occupy and Tea Party events, clearly making our unique voice heard. If people see us as truly different, and not just part of one conventional political faction or the other, more of them will be willing to listen. Those on the left won’t immediately write us off as antagonists, and those on the right who perceive the problems with conservatism will have a reason to consider us as something other than just a politically weaker version of what they already have. There are also tons of non-political people who are alarmed by, or simply tired of, the intensifying left-right bickering and polarization, and looking for a real alternative.

Cozying up to someone like Donald Trump not only makes presenting ourselves as this third way more difficult, but also makes us increasingly vulnerable to being overwhelmed by a real takeover from the right, as we begin to more and more attract only people with right-wing leanings, and alienate more and more folks without such leanings. I’m not talking about the “phantom menace” of the Mises Caucus, but a wholesale abandonment of libertarian principles in favor of conservative ones. I don’t think that’s what folks like you and Jeff Chan want; it certainly isn’t what I want. I plan to fight to keep it from happening.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

···

On May 13, 2024, at 5:34 PM, Daniel Wiener wiener@alum.mit.edu wrote:

I am not upset that Donald Trump and Robert Kennedy, Jr. will be speaking at the Libertarian National Convention. I would not even have been upset if Joe Biden had also accepted the speaking invitation. It doesn’t hurt to hear what they say, and in fact they will very likely tailor their remarks to appeal to libertarians. That’s a good thing, since they are seeking our support rather than vice versa. Their speeches will attract a lot of media attention. Let’s try to move them and their supporters in a libertarian direction.

Nor am I upset that Jill Stein and Cornel West were not invited. In politics you punch up, not down. The Libertarian Party wants to be seen in the same league as the major candidates, not the little fringe candidates and parties that are below us. The fact that Trump and Kennedy are coming to us supports that narrative. (Everyone understands that Biden will try to hide in his basement again.) Whereas it would have been counter-productive if the LP had invited Stein and West and they had refused.

From a libertarian perspective, Donald Trump is a very mixed bag, with lots to disagree with but also lots to agree with. Certainly he is far superior to Joe Biden. Here are a few areas that Trump has in common with libertarians:
Cut tax rates and extend the previous cuts that he helped enact.
Stop targeting the firearms industry, and stop the federal government from trying to circumvent the 2nd Amendment and the recent Supreme Court decisions (due to his appointees) protecting it.
Shut down the Department of Education (or at least devolve education to states and parents).
Appoint judges who promise to hew to Constitutional limitations on government.
Avoid foreign wars, try to settle the war in Ukraine, and not let Ukraine join NATO.
End the constraints on domestic oil and gas production and distribution, and roll back the rules which require transitioning to the production of electric vehicles.
Eliminate government DEI regulations which create discriminatory, racist, and segregationist policies.
Stop promoting (and hopefully outlaw) gender-transitioning surgeries and related chemical interventions of non-adults.
End government censorship of social media.

I won’t be at the National Convention, but I’ll try to catch the speeches and other stuff which I expect to be live-streamed on X.

Daniel Wiener

On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 11:12 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Dear fellow Libertarians,

Many of you may have blindsided, as we were, by media reports about Donald Trump being invited to speak at the Libertarian Party’s upcoming national convention happening May 23-26 in Washington D.C.

A Washington Post story, among many others, describes some of the strife this has caused in our party – https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/07/trump-libertarian-national-convention/?_pml=1 https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/07/trump-libertarian-national-convention/?_pml=1. I actually read through the hundreds of comments posted in response to this story, and their overwhelmingly negative takes reflect how much of a black eye this boneheaded move has been for the LP. Reaction was roughly divided between those saying libertarians have always been conservatives or Republicans in sheep’s clothing, and this just proves it, and those dismayed by how a figure as un-libertarian as Trump would be featured at a Libertarian convention.

At our meeting yesterday, the Libertarian Party of San Francisco adopted the following resolution on the matter:


On May 1, the national Libertarian Party issued a press release announcing that Donald Trump would be speaking at the 2024 national Libertarian Party convention, happening May 23-25 in Washington D.C. (https://www.lp.org/president-trump-to-address-libertarian-party-concerns-at-national- <https://www.lp.org/president-trump-to-address-libertarian-party-concerns-at-national->convention-may-25th/)

The Libertarian Party of San Francisco hereby condemns this invitation, and adds our voice those calling for it to be rescinded.

While we would welcome Trump or any other candidate of the 2-party cartel coming to an LP convention to participate in a debate with Libertarian candidates seeking the office for which they are running, that is not what is scheduled in Washington D.C.

Donald Trump refused to debate Gary Johnson in 2016 or Jo Jorgensen in 2020, and he is not coming to our D.C. convention to debate the Libertarians seeking the nomination this cycle, but is simply being given carte blanche to address our delegates in the manner of his choosing.

Furthermore, although Joe Biden and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. have also been invited to speak at the convention, this may have been done as an afterthought to justify inviting Trump. Other presidential candidates, including Jill Stein of the Green Party and independent candidate Cornel West, have not been invited.

The Libertarian Party is increasingly at risk of being associated with the Republican Party and right-wing politics, and we believe this is not only at odds with our mission of promoting freedom and the Non-Aggression Principle, but will harm our ability to appeal to people across the political spectrum.

Please feel free to publicize this, or borrow any of the language for resolutions or statements of your own. I look forward to seeing those of you in D.C. who can make it. Hopefully we’ll be able to make some lemonade out of this big orange lemon that’s been dumped on us.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))
Chair, Libertarian Party of San Francisco
(415) 573-7997

NolanChart.jpg

Hi Starchild,

You make some good arguments regarding Jill Stein and Cornel West, which
have convinced me to change my mind in that regard: They also should have
been invited to speak at the Libertarian National Convention.

Dan Wiener

···

On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 12:54 AM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:

Dan,

You say you aren’t upset that Donald Trump and RFK have been invited to
speak at the Libertarian national convention, because “it doesn’t hurt to
hear what they say, and in fact they will very likely tailor their remarks
to appeal to libertarians.” But the same could be said for Jill Stein and
Cornel West, or indeed just about any candidate looking for an audience.
With Stein or West, and maybe to some degree with RFK, giving them a
platform at our events can arguably help build alternative party solidarity
in opposition to the 2-party establishment cartel, but this is not true of
Trump or Biden.

I don’t think the “punching up” analogy works, because the real harm being
done is to those excluded, not to those invited. When Trump attacks Biden
while refusing to debate his other challengers, as he has done all primary
season, he is not “punching up”, but “punching down” – harming the
alternative parties and lesser-known candidates he refuses to debate by
contributing to their marginalization.

This is of course the same thing the Republicans and Democrats have been
doing to Libertarians and other alternative parties and candidates for
years. Not only is it anti-democratic and intellectually cowardly behavior,
but it is behavior that will make us look like hypocrites if we engage in
it ourselves while simultaneously complaining about similarly exclusionary
tactics employed against us by the 2-party cartel. As another Libertarian
candidate slighted by Trump and Biden, Jacob Hornberger did in this
excellent op-ed piece on ballot access published yesterday in the Orange
County Register:

The ballot-access protection racket – Orange County Register
https://www.ocregister.com/2024/05/12/the-ballot-access-protection-racket/

Libertarianism has a messaging problem. For years, the party and the
movement have tended, on the whole, to frame our ideas in a manner that
appeals more to people on the political right than to people on the
political left. Anyone who understands the Nolan Chart (see graphic
below) understands that libertarianism is neither left-wing nor right-wing,
but pro-freedom and anti-authoritarian. But when we allow ourselves to get
embroiled in the left-vs-right feuding of conventional politics
and “culture wars”, this truth can easily be lost – especially if we’re
seen as favoring one side over the other.

Many members of the general public, not to mention folks on the left,
already see ours as a right-wing movement. Some of this can be attributed
to biased media reporting, such as the numerous misleading articles
labeling the world’s first self-identified libertarian head of state,
Javier Milei, as “far right” or “ultra-conservative”, but some of it is
also his fault, and ours, for not presenting the freedom message in a more
even-handed and non-partisan manner.

If the perception of libertarianism as right-wing solidifies, and we lose
our ability to appeal to people on the left as well as the right, we will
lose something of immense political value, far more important than the mere
ability to hob-nob with establishment party candidates. We will risk
becoming marginalized the way that the Occupy movement on the left, and the
Tea Party movement on the right, were respectively.

I’m proud to have spoken as a Libertarian at both Occupy and Tea Party
events, clearly making our unique voice heard. If people see us as truly
different, and not just part of one conventional political faction or the
other, more of them will be willing to listen. Those on the left won’t
immediately write us off as antagonists, and those on the right who
perceive the problems with conservatism will have a reason to consider us
as something other than just a politically weaker version of what they
already have. There are also tons of non-political people who are alarmed
by, or simply tired of, the intensifying left-right bickering and
polarization, and looking for a real alternative.

Cozying up to someone like Donald Trump not only makes presenting
ourselves as this third way more difficult, but also makes us increasingly
vulnerable to being overwhelmed by a real takeover from the right, as
we begin to more and more attract only people with right-wing leanings, and
alienate more and more folks without such leanings. I’m not talking about
the “phantom menace” of the Mises Caucus, but a wholesale abandonment of
libertarian principles in favor of conservative ones. I don’t think that’s
what folks like you and Jeff Chan want; it certainly isn’t what I want. I
plan to fight to keep it from happening.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

On May 13, 2024, at 5:34 PM, Daniel Wiener wiener@alum.mit.edu wrote:

I am not upset that Donald Trump and Robert Kennedy, Jr. will be speaking
at the Libertarian National Convention. I would not even have been upset
if Joe Biden had also accepted the speaking invitation. It doesn’t hurt to
hear what they say, and in fact they will very likely tailor their remarks
to appeal to libertarians. That’s a good thing, since they are seeking our
support rather than vice versa. Their speeches will attract a lot of media
attention. Let’s try to move them and their supporters in a libertarian
direction.

Nor am I upset that Jill Stein and Cornel West were not invited. In
politics you punch up, not down. The Libertarian Party wants to be seen in
the same league as the major candidates, not the little fringe candidates
and parties that are below us. The fact that Trump and Kennedy are coming
to us supports that narrative. (Everyone understands that Biden will try
to hide in his basement again.) Whereas it would have been
counter-productive if the LP had invited Stein and West and they had
refused.

From a libertarian perspective, Donald Trump is a very mixed bag, with
lots to disagree with but also lots to agree with. Certainly he is far
superior to Joe Biden. Here are a few areas that Trump has in common with
libertarians:

  • Cut tax rates and extend the previous cuts that he helped enact.
  • Stop targeting the firearms industry, and stop the federal
    government from trying to circumvent the 2nd Amendment and the recent
    Supreme Court decisions (due to his appointees) protecting it.
  • Shut down the Department of Education (or at least devolve education
    to states and parents).
  • Appoint judges who promise to hew to Constitutional limitations on
    government.
  • Avoid foreign wars, try to settle the war in Ukraine, and not let
    Ukraine join NATO.
  • End the constraints on domestic oil and gas production and
    distribution, and roll back the rules which require transitioning to the
    production of electric vehicles.
  • Eliminate government DEI regulations which create discriminatory,
    racist, and segregationist policies.
  • Stop promoting (and hopefully outlaw) gender-transitioning surgeries
    and related chemical interventions of non-adults.
  • End government censorship of social media.

I won’t be at the National Convention, but I’ll try to catch the speeches
and other stuff which I expect to be live-streamed on X.

Daniel Wiener

On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 11:12 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net > wrote:

Dear fellow Libertarians,

Many of you may have blindsided, as we were, by media reports about
Donald Trump being invited to speak at the Libertarian Party’s upcoming
national convention happening May 23-26 in Washington D.C.

A Washington Post story, among many others, describes some of the strife
this has caused in our party –* https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/07/trump-libertarian-national-convention/?_pml=1
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/07/trump-libertarian-national-convention/?_pml=1*.
I actually read through the hundreds of comments posted in response to this
story, and their overwhelmingly negative takes reflect how much of a black
eye this boneheaded move has been for the LP. Reaction was roughly divided
between those saying libertarians have always been conservatives or
Republicans in sheep’s clothing, and this just proves it, and those
dismayed by how a figure as un-libertarian as Trump would be featured at a
Libertarian convention.

At our meeting yesterday, the Libertarian Party of San Francisco adopted
the following resolution on the matter:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On May 1, the national Libertarian Party issued a press release
announcing that Donald Trump would be speaking at the 2024 national
Libertarian Party convention, happening May 23-25 in Washington
D.C. (https://www.lp.org/president-trump-to-address-libertarian-party-concerns-at-national-
https://www.lp.org/president-trump-to-address-libertarian-party-concerns-at-national-convention-may-25th/)The Libertarian
Party of San Francisco hereby condemns this invitation, and adds our voice
those calling for it to be rescinded.While we would welcome Trump or any
other candidate of the 2-party cartel coming to an LP convention to
participate in a debate with Libertarian candidates seeking the office for
which they are running, that is not what is scheduled in Washington
D.C.Donald Trump refused to debate Gary Johnson in 2016 or Jo Jorgensen in
2020, and he is not coming to our D.C. convention to debate
the Libertarians seeking the nomination this cycle, but is simply
being given carte blanche to address our delegates in the manner of
his choosing.Furthermore, although Joe Biden and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. have
also been invited to speak at the convention, this may have been done as
an afterthought to justify inviting Trump. Other presidential candidates,
including Jill Stein of the Green Party and independent candidate Cornel
West, have not been invited.The Libertarian Party is increasingly at risk
of being associated with the Republican Party and right-wing politics, and
we believe this is not only at odds with our mission of promoting freedom
and the Non-Aggression Principle, but will harm our ability to appeal
to people across the political spectrum.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Please feel free to publicize this, or borrow any of the language for
resolutions or statements of your own. I look forward to seeing those of
you in D.C. who can make it. Hopefully we’ll be able to make some lemonade
out of this big orange lemon that’s been dumped on us.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))
Chair, Libertarian Party of San Francisco
(415) 573-7997

NolanChart.jpg

Got it. There’s the Libertarian quadrant and three fascist quadrants which could be shaded gray becoming black at the lowest end.

There is no power on earth so worthy of honor in itself, or clothed with rights so sacred, that I would admit its uncontrolled and all-predominant authority. When I see that the right and the means of absolute command are conferred on any power whatever, be it called a people or a king, an aristocracy or a republic, I say there is the germ of tyranny, and I seek to live elsewhere, under other laws.
— Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America [1835]

···

On Tuesday, May 14, 2024 at 02:54:03 AM CDT, Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:

Dan,
You say you aren’t upset that Donald Trump and RFK have been invited to speak at the Libertarian national convention, because “it doesn’t hurt to hear what they say, and in fact they will very likely tailor their remarks to appeal to libertarians.” But the same could be said for Jill Stein and Cornel West, or indeed just about any candidate looking for an audience. With Stein or West, and maybe to some degree with RFK, giving them a platform at our events can arguably help build alternative party solidarity in opposition to the 2-party establishment cartel, but this is not true of Trump or Biden.
I don’t think the “punching up” analogy works, because the real harm being done is to those excluded, not to those invited. When Trump attacks Biden while refusing to debate his other challengers, as he has done all primary season, he is not “punching up”, but “punching down” – harming the alternative parties and lesser-known candidates he refuses to debate by contributing to their marginalization.
This is of course the same thing the Republicans and Democrats have been doing to Libertarians and other alternative parties and candidates for years. Not only is it anti-democratic and intellectually cowardly behavior, but it is behavior that will make us look like hypocrites if we engage in it ourselves while simultaneously complaining about similarly exclusionary tactics employed against us by the 2-party cartel. As another Libertarian candidate slighted by Trump and Biden, Jacob Hornberger did in this excellent op-ed piece on ballot access published yesterday in the Orange County Register:

Libertarianism has a messaging problem. For years, the party and the movement have tended, on the whole, to frame our ideas in a manner that appeals more to people on the political right than to people on the political left. Anyone who understands the Nolan Chart (see graphic below) understands that libertarianism is neither left-wing nor right-wing, but pro-freedom and anti-authoritarian. But when we allow ourselves to get embroiled in the left-vs-right feuding of conventional politics and “culture wars”, this truth can easily be lost – especially if we’re seen as favoring one side over the other.
Many members of the general public, not to mention folks on the left, already see ours as a right-wing movement. Some of this can be attributed to biased media reporting, such as the numerous misleading articles labeling the world’s first self-identified libertarian head of state, Javier Milei, as “far right” or “ultra-conservative”, but some of it is also his fault, and ours, for not presenting the freedom message in a more even-handed and non-partisan manner.
If the perception of libertarianism as right-wing solidifies, and we lose our ability to appeal to people on the left as well as the right, we will lose something of immense political value, far more important than the mere ability to hob-nob with establishment party candidates. We will risk becoming marginalized the way that the Occupy movement on the left, and the Tea Party movement on the right, were respectively.
I’m proud to have spoken as a Libertarian at both Occupy and Tea Party events, clearly making our unique voice heard. If people see us as truly different, and not just part of one conventional political faction or the other, more of them will be willing to listen. Those on the left won’t immediately write us off as antagonists, and those on the right who perceive the problems with conservatism will have a reason to consider us as something other than just a politically weaker version of what they already have. There are also tons of non-political people who are alarmed by, or simply tired of, the intensifying left-right bickering and polarization, and looking for a real alternative.
Cozying up to someone like Donald Trump not only makes presenting ourselves as this third way more difficult, but also makes us increasingly vulnerable to being overwhelmed by a real takeover from the right, as we begin to more and more attract only people with right-wing leanings, and alienate more and more folks without such leanings. I’m not talking about the “phantom menace” of the Mises Caucus, but a wholesale abandonment of libertarian principles in favor of conservative ones. I don’t think that’s what folks like you and Jeff Chan want; it certainly isn’t what I want. I plan to fight to keep it from happening.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))

On May 13, 2024, at 5:34 PM, Daniel Wiener wiener@alum.mit.edu wrote:
I am not upset that Donald Trump and Robert Kennedy, Jr. will be speaking at the Libertarian National Convention. I would not even have been upset if Joe Biden had also accepted the speaking invitation. It doesn’t hurt to hear what they say, and in fact they will very likely tailor their remarks to appeal to libertarians. That’s a good thing, since they are seeking our support rather than vice versa. Their speeches will attract a lot of media attention. Let’s try to move them and their supporters in a libertarian direction.

Nor am I upset that Jill Stein and Cornel West were not invited. In politics you punch up, not down. The Libertarian Party wants to be seen in the same league as the major candidates, not the little fringe candidates and parties that are below us. The fact that Trump and Kennedy are coming to us supports that narrative. (Everyone understands that Biden will try to hide in his basement again.) Whereas it would have been counter-productive if the LP had invited Stein and West and they had refused.

From a libertarian perspective, Donald Trump is a very mixed bag, with lots to disagree with but also lots to agree with. Certainly he is far superior to Joe Biden. Here are a few areas that Trump has in common with libertarians:

  • Cut tax rates and extend the previous cuts that he helped enact.
  • Stop targeting the firearms industry, and stop the federal government from trying to circumvent the 2nd Amendment and the recent Supreme Court decisions (due to his appointees) protecting it.
  • Shut down the Department of Education (or at least devolve education to states and parents).
  • Appoint judges who promise to hew to Constitutional limitations on government.
  • Avoid foreign wars, try to settle the war in Ukraine, and not let Ukraine join NATO.
  • End the constraints on domestic oil and gas production and distribution, and roll back the rules which require transitioning to the production of electric vehicles.
  • Eliminate government DEI regulations which create discriminatory, racist, and segregationist policies.
  • Stop promoting (and hopefully outlaw) gender-transitioning surgeries and related chemical interventions of non-adults.
  • End government censorship of social media.

I won’t be at the National Convention, but I’ll try to catch the speeches and other stuff which I expect to be live-streamed on X.

Daniel Wiener

On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 11:12 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:

Dear fellow Libertarians,
Many of you may have blindsided, as we were, by media reports about Donald Trump being invited to speak at the Libertarian Party’s upcoming national convention happening May 23-26 in Washington D.C.
A Washington Post story, among many others, describes some of the strife this has caused in our party – https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/07/trump-libertarian-national-convention/?_pml=1. I actually read through the hundreds of comments posted in response to this story, and their overwhelmingly negative takes reflect how much of a black eye this boneheaded move has been for the LP. Reaction was roughly divided between those saying libertarians have always been conservatives or Republicans in sheep’s clothing, and this just proves it, and those dismayed by how a figure as un-libertarian as Trump would be featured at a Libertarian convention.
At our meeting yesterday, the Libertarian Party of San Francisco adopted the following resolution on the matter:

On May 1, the national Libertarian Party issued a press release announcing that Donald Trump would be speaking at the 2024 national Libertarian Party convention, happening May 23-25 in Washington D.C. (https://www.lp.org/president-trump-to-address-libertarian-party-concerns-at-national-convention-may-25th/)

The Libertarian Party of San Francisco hereby condemns this invitation, and adds our voice those calling for it to be rescinded.

While we would welcome Trump or any other candidate of the 2-party cartel coming to an LP convention to participate in a debate with Libertarian candidates seeking the office for which they are running, that is not what is scheduled in Washington D.C.

Donald Trump refused to debate Gary Johnson in 2016 or Jo Jorgensen in 2020, and he is not coming to our D.C. convention to debate the Libertarians seeking the nomination this cycle, but is simply being given carte blanche to address our delegates in the manner of his choosing.

Furthermore, although Joe Biden and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. have also been invited to speak at the convention, this may have been done as an afterthought to justify inviting Trump. Other presidential candidates, including Jill Stein of the Green Party and independent candidate Cornel West, have not been invited.

The Libertarian Party is increasingly at risk of being associated with the Republican Party and right-wing politics, and we believe this is not only at odds with our mission of promoting freedom and the Non-Aggression Principle, but will harm our ability to appeal to people across the political spectrum.

Please feel free to publicize this, or borrow any of the language for resolutions or statements of your own. I look forward to seeing those of you in D.C. who can make it. Hopefully we’ll be able to make some lemonade out of this big orange lemon that’s been dumped on us.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))Chair, Libertarian Party of San Francisco(415) 573-7997

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NolanChart.jpg

···

On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 2:12 AM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:

CAUTION This email originated from outside of Arlington Public Schools.
Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe.

Dear fellow Libertarians,

Many of you may have blindsided, as we were, by media reports about Donald
Trump being invited to speak at the Libertarian Party’s upcoming national
convention happening May 23-26 in Washington D.C.

A Washington Post story, among many others, describes some of the strife
this has caused in our party –* https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/07/trump-libertarian-national-convention/?_pml=1
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/07/trump-libertarian-national-convention/?_pml=1*.
I actually read through the hundreds of comments posted in response to this
story, and their overwhelmingly negative takes reflect how much of a black
eye this boneheaded move has been for the LP. Reaction was roughly divided
between those saying libertarians have always been conservatives or
Republicans in sheep’s clothing, and this just proves it, and those
dismayed by how a figure as un-libertarian as Trump would be featured at a
Libertarian convention.

At our meeting yesterday, the Libertarian Party of San Francisco adopted
the following resolution on the matter:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On May 1, the national Libertarian Party issued a press release
announcing that Donald Trump would be speaking at the 2024 national
Libertarian Party convention, happening May 23-25 in Washington
D.C. (https://www.lp.org/president-trump-to-address-libertarian-party-concerns-at-national-
https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lp.org%2Fpresident-trump-to-address-libertarian-party-concerns-at-national-&c=E,1,N1J5KX8dDx_FW3Ya_l4OEIpi6ab7cGH4uIOWNaDCgKQx21HlN1D-7SHb-3JZnHdjlSGSueFQHeu-Gr-vM50Qm_SFpgRwJU_XmhfIsACXLmhLKg,,&typo=1convention-may-25th/)
The Libertarian Party of San Francisco hereby condemns this invitation, and
adds our voice those calling for it to be rescinded. While we would welcome
Trump or any other candidate of the 2-party cartel coming to an LP
convention to participate in a debate with Libertarian candidates seeking
the office for which they are running, that is not what is scheduled in
Washington D.C. Donald Trump refused to debate Gary Johnson in 2016 or Jo
Jorgensen in 2020, and he is not coming to our D.C. convention to debate
the Libertarians seeking the nomination this cycle, but is simply
being given carte blanche to address our delegates in the manner of
his choosing. Furthermore, although Joe Biden and Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
have also been invited to speak at the convention, this may have been done
as an afterthought to justify inviting Trump. Other
presidential candidates, including Jill Stein of the Green Party and
independent candidate Cornel West, have not been invited. The Libertarian
Party is increasingly at risk of being associated with the Republican Party
and right-wing politics, and we believe this is not only at odds with our
mission of promoting freedom and the Non-Aggression Principle, but will
harm our ability to appeal to people across the political spectrum.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Please feel free to publicize this, or borrow any of the language for
resolutions or statements of your own. I look forward to seeing those of
you in D.C. who can make it. Hopefully we’ll be able to make some lemonade
out of this big orange lemon that’s been dumped on us.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))
Chair, Libertarian Party of San Francisco
(415) 573-7997
.,.,_

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