Smaller government except when promoting Prop 8 denying non-traditional
people the right to marry, self - medicate and more.
I don't know if I can every post to this list so if anyone in the LPSF
Discuss list can, feel free to send this on.
Michael Denny
Libertarian Party of San Francisco
"On the Issues" rates Tom McClintock as a Conservative, (20,70) and correctly so, I believe:
http://www.ontheissues.org/CA/Tom_McClintock.htm
He supports "Under God" in the flag pledge, opposes equal marriage rights for gays, and started his House career by urging a pardon for Border Patrol agents who shot a man in the back, going even farther than G W Bush.
Here are two quotes by Tom McClintock from "On the Issues" site:
Q: Do you support the bill to give same-sex couples most of the same legal benefits as married couples?
McCLINTOCK: I would veto it. I do not care what people do in the privacy of their own homes. But I draw the line when they ask the government to approve or disapprove it of it.
Source: Recall debate in Walnut Creek Sep 3, 2003
The Pledge of Allegiance court case is central to America.
Words matter. Ideas matter. And symbols matter. The public furor over the Pledge of Allegiance must not be devalued as a mere defense of harmless deistic references and quaint old customs. The principle at stake is central to the very foundation of America and the very survival of its freedoms. If the source of our fundamental rights is not God, then the source becomes man-or more precisely, a government of men. And rights that can be extended by government may also be withdrawn by government.
Source: State Senate website, www.sen.ca.gov, "Issues Directory" Jul 3, 2002
Harland Harrison
LP of San Mateo County CA
Mike Denny of San Francisco LP also comments:
--- Mike Denny <mike@...> wrote :
Say what you will, but Tom McClintock was one of the strongest (perhaps the
only) consistently low-tax, small government guy in Sacramento. One of the
only coherent arguments I've heard in support of having no term limits, is
that a guy like McClintock (who was a strong incumbent) had the confidence
to defend his convictions when clearly in the minority.
Yes...a classic Republican conservative....good on economic freedom but
terrible on personal freedom.
Unfortunately, saying that Tom McClintock, who is:
- small-government on economic issues, but
- big government on immigration, war, drugs, and sexual regulations,
is a Libertarian is like saying that Mark Leno, who is:
- small-government on immigration, war, drugs, and sexual regulations, but
- big-government on economic issues,
is also a Libertarian. IMHO, neither is a Libertarian, and we dilute
our message anytime we refer to either of them as one.
None of us who are routinely referred to as "Left Libertarians" ever
try to pass off major-party liberals as Libertarians, but
unfortunately it's quite common for "Right Libertarians" to try to
pass of major-party conservatives as Libertarians. (Try to think of
examples of major-party candidates and media personalities who have
been called libertarian -- I guarantee that your list of conservatives
will be longer than your list of liberals.)
I'm all for a "big tent" party, but the people who tend to be
screaming for that the loudest seem to only want to eliminate litmus
tests that weed out conservatives, but they love their Libertarian
Purity Tests whenever someone left-of-center tries to claim the
Libertarian label.
We need to agree as a Party and as a movement whether we want to start
supporting less-than-libertarian major-party candidates, whether left
or right of center, or instead concentrate on supporting only 90/90
and better Libertarians. I'm agnostic on which strategy we follow,
because I think either can eventually help, but I'm tired of seeing
the same people who say that we have to ignore Ron Paul's positions on
social issues, so that we can claim him as a Libertarian, refuse to
ignore Dennis Kucinich's positions on economic issues, so that we can
claim him as a Libertarian as well. (And if your first thought is
"But of course Paul is a Libertarian and Kucinich isn't one," then you
should know that you're one of the people making me tired. Very tired.)
Measuring the size of government solely by the number of dollars taxed
and spent, while refusing to acknowledge non-monetary restrictions on
Liberty is a recipe for statism. Believe me -- I'm from a state that
to this day still doesn't have an income tax, but that had sodomy laws
until 1996. To me, it's frankly worth $5k a year in state income
taxes to not have to choose between criminality or celibacy. Maybe
that's why I'm called a "Left Libertarian"?
Big government doesn't have to be expensive in dollars -- it only has
to be expensive in Liberty.
Rob
P.S. This is the first I'm hearing of the WestCoastLibertarians
group. Is it another one of Cohen's Republican love-fest groups, or
does it have a more Libertarian moderator? I would join, if I know
it's not Cohen's group.
Say what you will, but Tom McClintock was one of the strongest
(perhaps the
only) consistently low-tax, small government guy in Sacramento. One
of the
only coherent arguments I've heard in support of having no term
limits, is
that a guy like McClintock (who was a strong incumbent) had the
confidence
Rob,
I generally agree with what you say here, except about Ron Paul. As tired as you say you are of people saying Paul is a libertarian and Kucinich isn't, I'm equally tired of seeing you talk as if Paul's positions on social issues are no better than those of typical conservatives. By trying to use him as an example of "conservative not libertarian" you take a lot of wind out of the sails of your argument.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Rob <chair@...> wrote :
P.S. This is the first I'm hearing of the
WestCoastLibertarians
group. Is it another one of Cohen's Republican
love-fest groups, or
does it have a more Libertarian moderator? I would join,
if I know it's not Cohen's group.
West Coast Libertarians
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westcoastlibertarians/
Moderator:
Fred Mangels
Eureka,CA
Harland Harrison
LPSM
At this point.........I would take Tom McClintock.......
On 10/21/08, I said, "Needless to say, the next time any so-called
"libertarian" asks LP members to support Tom McClintock, I'm going to
throw this back at them as proof that Tom McClintock is no libertarian."
So I'm keeping my word...
SACRAMENTO In an article in the Los Angeles Times, State Sen. Tom
McClintock today said the following about California's Proposition 8,
which would eliminate marriage for same-sex couples.
"Lincoln asked, 'If you call a tail a leg, how many legs has a dog?
The answer is four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one,'"
McClintock said in a statement. "And calling a homosexual partnership
a marriage doesn't make it one."
At this point.........I would take Tom McClintock.......
> Yes a classic Republican conservative .good on economic freedom but
> terrible on personal freedom.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com]
> *On Behalf Of *Glenn Rapp
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 29, 2009 12:38 AM
> *To:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [lpsf-discuss] RE: [West Coast Libertarians] GO TOM
> (McClintock) A libertarian? - Making an Impact on Washington
>
>
>
> Say what you will, but Tom McClintock was one of the strongest
(perhaps the
> only) consistently low-tax, small government guy in Sacramento.
One of the
> only coherent arguments I've heard in support of having no term
limits, is
> that a guy like McClintock (who was a strong incumbent) had the
confidence
> to defend his convictions when clearly in the minority.
>
>
>
> Smaller government except when promoting Prop 8 denying
non-traditional
> people the right to marry, self medicate and more.
>
>
>
> I don't know if I can every post to this list so if anyone in the LPSF
> Discuss list can, feel free to send this on.
>
>
>
> Michael Denny
>
> Libertarian Party of San Francisco
>
> www.LPSF.org
>
> www.MichaelDenny.net
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* westcoastlibertarians@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
> westcoastlibertarians@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *dvenardos
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:19 PM
> *To:* westcoastlibertarians@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [West Coast Libertarians] GO TOM (McClintock) A
> libertarian? - Making an Impact on Washington
>
>
>
> D,
> McClintock was my California state senator and I don't recall
> specifically any civil liberties issues, but I can tell you it was a
> breath of fresh air having him as my state senator. He was one of the
> only guys championing smaller, responsible government. He was term
> limited and I was sad to see him go.
>
> Regards,
> Don Venardos
> --- In
westcoastlibertarians@yahoogroups.com<westcoastlibertarians%40yahoogroups.com>,
Starchild, are you calling Ron Paul a liar?
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul94.html
He certainly thinks he's a social conservative -- even more so than
the Republicans he was calling out in that article. I'm willing to
take him at his word. 
Rob
Rob,
When Ron Paul calls himself a conservative, he is generally talking about his personal moral views, not what he wants government to force people to do, as is true for most others who use that label. His critique of Congress in the article you link below for not promoting a "socially conservative" agenda actually has to do with opposing *government spending* that is at odds with conservatism -- funding for abortions, funding for sex education and condom distribution, etc.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Dear Rob,
As expected, as a Ron Paul supporter, I am with Starchild on this one.
My opinion is that it is not my business how any politician feels
about social issues, or economic issues, or religious issues. My only
concern is what laws he would be willing to force me to follow.
Paul's article clearly makes a distinction between what one's personal
beliefs are and what one would foist on others.
BTW, an example of belief translated into law is Bob Barr's Defense of
Marriage Act. Interestingly, Barr could also serve as an example of
belief hopefully not translating into law: I personally heard him say
on NPR during his presidential campaign that he did not "believe" in
same sex marriage, but he would not support Proposition 8.
Marcy
Thank you for pointing that out Starchild.......