RE: UNIONS [lpsf-discuss] Re: Prop. 75

Franklin said: This is simply a denial of history. It is unions that
first got shorter work weeks, not non-unionized employees. Then later,
non-union employees also got these benefits.

Mike: Your comment is an example of the Post Hoc fallacy
( That unions resorted
to violence doesn't explain how non-union employees got the same benefit
if unions were the reason for the benefit. The reason for the benefits
is worker productivity provided largely by capital investments in
productivity tools like (once again) the hand truck, container freight
and fork lift that were all fought by unions even though they
dramatically improved workplace safety too. Remember, neither unions nor
corporations set wages and benefits. Productivity and customers do.

Franklin said: The idea that corporations compete for the best employees
is a joke to anyone who has actually worked for corporations. Dilbert
is the most accurate portrayal I know of of how corporations actually
work from an
employee perspective.

Mike: Your knowledge of "corporations" is limited by your limited
experience. My little 16 person company is a corporation and it is
nothing like Dilbert. Most corporations are mom and pops like mine.

Franklin said: You won't find me defending today's unions. What I will
defend is something called the free market. Today's unions are
over-regulated monsters. I want free market unions that would act in
their own
logical self interest and would support technology.

Mike: Good....I'd like to see that too. I'd also like to see unions sell
themselves on the services they provide to employers and give up
striking as a way of settling disputes although I have no problem with
workers deciding that a working environment is no longer suitable for
them, giving up their jobs and looking elsewhere for work they prefer.

Franklin said: Do I sound more like a union plant than you sound like a
corporate plant? At least I criticize today's unions and support
deregulation to improve them. I haven't heard you say anything

Mike: OK...I don't have a problem with "corporations" but do have
problems with corporatism and mercantilism. How's that?

Franklin said: Most third world countries suffer from a gross inequality
of income and workers have no rights and no power to unionize. This is
one of
their problems. Unionizing would help these countries, just like it
helped the US, but corruption in these countries prevents unions from
getting power.

Mike: There are lots of unions in third world countries. But they can't
increase wages because productivity is low due to limited capital
investment. You are right, union corruption in these countries runs
rampant with other kinds of corruption just like here.

Franklin said: No thanks (to punching me in the nose). But I have to
say I wouldn't want to live in a society where people are free to punch
each other in the nose without government interference. Is that what
you want?

Mike: You have it backwards. I want to live in a world free to protect
myself from people who would consider punching me in the nose.

Franklin said: Limited liability corporations are not established
contractually. They are established by filing with the state to be
recognized as a corporation and to be GRANTED limited liability.

Organizations cannot simply proclaim the rules by which they exist.
Otherwise the mafia could just proclaim themselves an organization
with the right to kill people.

Mike: Once again, you have it backwards. Every business registers with
the state whether they are limited liability or not. The status is not
granted by the state, the company status is declared up front by the
business and registered with the state. There aren't any exceptional
fees (unique to limited liability corporations) except for the minimum
corporate tax.

Regarding your mafia analogy, killing is wrong. Declaring yourself only
able to provide goods or services at a certain price in a limited
liability environment isn't.

Mike said: can continue to discuss this with the rest of the


if you want.

Franklin said: Thanks, I'll check here once in a while.

Mike: What more could we ask for?

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