RE: [lpsf-discuss] The 4th of July....

The sophistication of an organism's "feelings" is not the issue. Once
fertilized, this organism has everything it needs under normal
circumstances to become a fully realized person. Anything that uses
force to interfere with that process is killing that organism.

Personally, I question the "feelings" of my children and feel that if it
is OK to kill a fetus because it lacks adequate "feelings", I should be
able to do the same thing to my teenagers.

But I realize that this is a very hot topic and one that has to be
handled carefully. I like the way Harry Browne addresses the
issue....with humor. He says that one thing is for sure, given the
government's success in the War on Drugs and War on Poverty, the more
government gets involved in abortion, the more likely it is that men
will soon be having them.

But seriously, in my personal view, this is a very great tragedy and
that we will all suffer the loss of these children in some unforeseen
way. It has already been shown that abortion is directly related to
breast cancer and the psychological effects of abortion can be deeply
troubling. I don't recommend it but would like to see the issue returned
to the States where it belongs.

Mike

The sophistication of an organism's "feelings" is not the issue. Once
fertilized, this organism has everything it needs under normal
circumstances to become a fully realized person.
Anything that uses force to interfere with that process is killing that organism.

Sure, but the question is which forms of an organism do we give rights to.

In the US, the medical definition of death now includes "brain death". Do you agree with this definition? If so, consider this: There are cases of babies born "alive", but without brains. If you agree with the "brain death" definition of death, then you would not consider it murder to kill such a child. Ok, now, would it have been murder to kill it when it was a single cell fertilized cell? If so, at what point between then and it's birth would killing not be "murder"?

These are difficult and unpleasant things to think about, but necessary to come to an understanding of the problem.

Personally, I question the "feelings" of my children and feel that if it
is OK to kill a fetus because it lacks adequate "feelings", I should be
able to do the same thing to my teenagers.

Would a doctor say your children have feelings and thoughts? I hope so! :slight_smile:

Cheers,
Steve
OSX freeware and shareware: http://www.dekorte.com/downloads.html

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I am very, very pleased that we've been able to have a relatively
respectful discussion on this amazingly contentious topic.

However, I'm not sure how fruitful it is.

I don't think anyone here thinks abortion is a *good* thing - the crux is
whether access to it should be safe and legal. And until we have
scientific proof of the presence or absence of a soul, there's not going to
be a clear-cut libertarian answer. But I think there's a more libertarian
question: how can we work towards a society in which every child is wanted,
and that no one - or hardly anyone - needs (or thinks they need) recourse
to abortion?

I think it's especially important to craft an easily-communicated public
message on this point for candidates like Mike. One of the smartest things
Gavin Newsom has done so far is to "out" Tony Hall as pro-life, which
torpedoed any chance he had of running for mayor. Even though this isn't a
city issue, Mike and other candidates should have a *short* and *simple*
answer to the abortion rights question.

I'm really not sure how this can be done in an easily-digested form. Any
thoughts?

~Chris
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"Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit
  to undertake. It is not easy." - Ursula K. LeGuin
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According to the mainstream newspapers, the latest
scientific consensus (and it is a consensus) is that
there is no connection between abortion and breast
cancer. However, I haven't paid enough attention to
be able to cite anything specific.

I hope technology combined with education solves this
controversy in the near future. If there is (or soon
will be) a truly safe "morning-after" pill, that
should mostly reduce the demand for abortion, if the
pill is easy for anyone to get.