RE: [lpsf-discuss] September 11 - Information and movie screening

Thanks Jeff....glad to have you on board.

It seems the 911truth.org is important for everyone to see and consider
so I've sent many friends to the website.

Could you please offer your comments about this article in Popular
Mechanics commented on by Richard Rider, a good Libertarian in San
Diego? I'd like to hear it from your perspective. He just sent this out
to his list over the weekend.

Best regards,

Michael Denny

RICHARD RIDER COMMENT: I have my SERIOUS doubts about most conspiracy
theories. A couple might hold water or at least raise significant
questions, but most are based on bad science, selective data, and most
of all the desperate need to make something that is relatively
straightforward into some deep, dark secret conspiracy.

Such is the case with all the conspiracy theories about 9/11. Some
people really like to believe that thousands of evil government people
pulled off a nationwide con job, blowing up the WTC and the Pentagon to
get the oil, start a war, and/or impose a police state.

Below's link to Popular Mechanics provides a good layman's debunking of
these many and varied "proofs" that it wasn't the Muslims, but rather
our own folks who did these horrible deeds.

Of course, no explanation satisfies the hard core conspiracy believer.
After all, any explanation is itself proof that the evil
government/oil/commie/whoever bad guys are trying to cover up their
efforts.

The dedicated conspiracy fans I don't think I can dissuade, but for the
rest of you, these explanations seem to make far more sense to me than
the conspiracy theories.

Remember Occam's Razor.

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the email.

We never got to go to the firing range for handguns, as I had asked you a
few years back. As I recall, I dropped the ball and never followed up on my
initial inquiry. I would still like to do it with you sometime if you still
go.

Let me say a couple quick things in response to your questions:

1. Loose Change is a flawed film. It is undergoing revision, with the
third edition to be released hopefully in a couple of months. It has some
golden points and footage, and it has some duds.

A good point by point analysis is at
http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/loose_change/index.html

There are a couple things I like about Loose Change: There is no copyright,
so it is permissible to make as many copies and even sell them if you want.
2. It is pretty entertaining, not very boring. 3. Has good music. 4.
Has a lot of appeal to beginners.

The bad points are, it is not a perfect movie and has some clear flaws, and
therefore, any good 9-11 truther must say that as a disclaimer. There are
better movies out there, but this is a good one for intro for many people.
There is not one single 2 hour movie I have found that will make everyone
see the picture.

2. The Popular Mechanics piece was a high-profile hit piece with
several major areas of flawed logic. A lot of it consisted of straw-man
arguments. The piece has been refuted point by point at

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pop_mech/reply_to_popular_mechanics.htm

and

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/gopm/index.html

Oh, and guess who wrote the Popular Mechanics article? "Senior researcher"
- a 26 year-old cousin of Michael Chertoff, director of Homeland Security.
How is that for an unbiased author? The PM article was an unmitigated
biased hit-piece and smear, very very flawed, yet quite effective
propaganda.

3. It takes a little time for most to really overcome all the hurdles
and resistances to understanding 9/11. The hurdles are enormous for many
people, and include numerous potential psychological barriers. Let's just
say that if it WAS a government psy-op, it was brilliantly conceived from a
psychological point of view to make it psychologically difficult for people
to see through it. Think Hitler's famous quote about the "Big Lie."
4. I have compiled a sequence of computer folders available for free to
help people sequentially learn about 9/11 as painlessly and efficiently as
possible. Below are the instructions for free download if you are
interested.

Any questions, please ask. Thanks for your interest.

In Liberty,

Jeff Schwartz

Addendum below:

Download a great flyer 8.5x11 for free.

Also download and burn a great CD which you can make copies of and give or
sell to others, all for free.

Download Instructions:

Go to URL

Type the 3 digit number shown in the window at the bottom

Press "Submit" button

Wait 30 seconds as there is a brief pause and a countdown before the
"Download" button appears.

After the pause, "Download" button appears. Now press the download button.

1. DOWNLOAD ONE PAGE 8.5 X 11 INCH FLYER (Total download time a minute)

Download for free at:

http://www.sharebigfile.com/file/13735/101n-Flyer---15-Remarkable-Facts-Abou
t-911.doc.html

2. DOWNLOAD FILES FOR YOU TO BURN YOUR OWN COMPUTER CD:

Folder A - 1st

http://www.sharebigfile.com/file/13181/Building-7---A-Folder.zip.html

Folder B - 2nd

http://www.sharebigfile.com/file/13206/Building-7---B-Folder.zip.html

Folder C - 3rd

http://www.sharebigfile.com/file/13261/Building-7---C-Folder---Full.zip.html

The three folder files are in zip format. Unzip each file, and it will
become a folder. Use a free file like Winzip to unzip the files.

(If you don't have a zip extracting file, Winzip can be downloaded for free
at http://www.download.com/WinZip/3000-2250_4-10454671.html?tag=lst-0-2 )

You can use the information on Folders A through C either on your own
computer for your own educational purposes, and/or you can also use the
folders to easily create a distributable information CD useful for outreach,
if you have a CD burner.

To make the CD, use your CD burning software (e.g. Nero) to add all three
unzipped folders onto a blank CD and burn the CD. All 3 folders will fit
together on one CD. Label the CD "Building 7" or "Bldg 7".

Each of the three folders takes about 20 minutes to download with broadband.

The positive features of this CD once you burn it is:

1. The CD very-user friendly, and does not overwhelm the user when they
first look at Folder A, which has only a few files in it.

2. The title of the CD itself is low key and non-threatening to the
newbie: "Building 7."

3. The CD begins with the most interesting and obvious issues first,
and progressively tells the story of 9/11 truth in a logical, progressive,
methodical order.

4. The CD is packed with hundreds of hours of audio and video for those
who are really interested in this topic, yet it is so compact that it fits
onto a CD. (Some of the multimedia is via web links).

5. Because it fits onto a CD, almost anybody with a computer has the
ability to make copies of your CD to distribute to others.

6. The contents of the CD have been specifically created and edited to
eliminate red herrings, conjecture, disproved theories, and disinformation
to the greatest extent possible.

Michael,

One quote from Richard Rider I had to respond to.

He said we believe that "thousands of evil government" people must have
perpetrated this crime. This is a great example of a critic of 9/11 Truth
putting his own words into our mouths.

Rider's statement is simply not true. Most experts in 9-11 truth believe
the number who plotted it and knew the entire big picture could have been a
much small number, as small a number as, perhaps, 19 or less (the official
story had 19 people + OBL as the perpetrators).

Now there are logical reasons for thinking the number could be so low, and
anyone who wants to skip ahead with the downloadable materials to look at
Document 90c, and Audio 25a with its accompanying Transcript 25b, both on
Folder C, will see some cogent, logical reasons why we think so few could
have been the masterminds in the know and in control of the entire plot.

But I am telling you, that if these types of issues you may have which make
it difficult for you to imagine any degree of government complicity actually
prevent you from looking at the evidence fairly presented by 9/11 Truth
experts, then you are refusing to look at the evidence due to prejudice
about this case.

You have been told the official story over and over again since 9/11/01 by
the government and the mainstream media. You've seen the government present
their "case" in the mainstream media, if you use the media, a lot. Probably
most Americans were exposed to hundreds or even thousands of hours of
propaganda over the last 5 years propping up the official government myth.

But prejudice about the case, and having questions like these, prevent many
people from taking two or three hours to re-examine the evidence from the
other side.

Imagine of a grand jury presentment. A prosecutor typically will go to a
grand jury and present all the evidence there is, seeking an indictment.
What would happen if the foreman of the grand jury had previously spent 5
years listening to the accused man's attorney tell him the defense's side of
the story? He'd be disqualified because of not being able to see the
evidence impartially and would have to recuse him/herself. But let's just
say that we cannot disqualify the foreman because he's the only person we've
got. Just like the US citizens are the only ones we've got to present this
case to in a US jurisdiction. Well, imagine the first day of the grand jury
convening, the very first minute of the proceedings, the prosecutor rises to
begin presenting the evidence, and the foreman of the jury rises and
interrupts the prosecutor before he can say a word. The foreman, taking the
floor, says, "Listen, I've seen the bloody glove found at the scene of the
crime, the man accused has hands that are too big to fit the glove, and
since the glove don't fit, you must acquit. I refuse to listen to any of
the evidence. The accused could not possibly have done the crime, I want
the grand jury dismissed without looking at any of the evidence."

That is essentially what a lot of people are doing. They are refusing to
look at the evidence that has been compiled by 911 Truth. They do so
because of prejudices formed about the case because of five years of hearing
the government's case and evidence over and over again.

The hardest part for many people is to actually get around to looking at the
evidence. It is there in downloadable format and presented in a sequential,
logical manner.

It is very hard for people to comprehend that the 9/11 Commission was a
complete fraud and a coverup. It is hard to believe anything but the
official story for many people. I know the feeling. I myself believed most
of the official story for at least three years, until I found the contrary
evidence and took a close look at it. It took me a while to learn about and
analyze the evidence before I was convinced that we have been lied to
massively about 9/11.

The only way to get your mind around the "over-the-top" events of 9/11 is to
look at the evidence from the other side, fairly presented. My
downloadable folders make it as easy as possible to do just that.

I know, it's not easy to believe that the government could be telling
massive lies about 9/11, but if you look at the evidence, you will see how
big a lie it is.

For all the doubters who are resistant to looking at the evidence, I
challenge you to look at the evidence. Start with Folder A. It only takes
an hour or less to go through. If after looking at the first hour of
evidence, you are 100% sure the government is correct, God bless you. I
hope that the issues brought up in Folder A will intrigue you enough so that
you want to look at more of the evidence. In my opinion, this real-life
story is more intriguing than any fictional movie, book, or crime story.
The story is truly an amazing one historically, and the number of dirty
facts about 9/11 that most people don't know are enormous.

The basic summary of our case is:

1. The government story is not only wildly implausible, it is
physically impossible on several counts.
2. The "9/11 Commission" was not an investigation, but a complete sham
and a cover-up.
3. Most of the strong evidence 9/11 Truth has about this case is
unknown to the large majority of people and has been suppressed by the all
the mainstream media.
4. Most people have not looked critically at all the evidence 9/11
Truth has which contradict the official government myth.
5. At the very least, we want people to look at the facts. We think
the facts speak for themselves that 9/11 was not properly investigated, and
there has been a massive coverup, and massive illegal destruction of
evidence. We know that the government has confiscated and/or never released
mountains of crucial evidence, and we want the government to bring public
any evidence it has not already destroyed.
6. People need to understand the case that the War on Terror and all
that has come with it has been based on a sacred myth propagated by the
government which is based on a huge pack of lies of distortion and omission.
7. Terror is a tool that has been used to manipulate the people for
political purposes. If we close our eyes and stick our heads in the sand
and refuse to look at this compelling evidence that has been hidden from us
by the mainstream media, we are simply asking for more such deadly terror
events in the future committed by the same network of perpetrators in order
to manipulate the public. We must neutralize the political tool of creating
terror, so as to protect us from falling further into a police state.

I really think this issue is worth at least a couple of hours or more of any
libertarian's time to take a second look at.

Jeff Schwartz

Jeffrey,

Thanks for your careful organization of the case for the existence
of a 9/11 conspiracy. Clearly you are an intelligent person and
genuinely motivated. Out of respect for that, I will take a look at
Folder A at my earliest opportunity, and get back to you. But I do
not expect to be convinced or much interested past that point.

Why? Because, if I understand the conspiracy theorists correctly,
the claim is being made that only a small number of conspirators are
involved, who somehow managed to manipulate the entire military,
government and media system on a grand scale, without the people
being affected realizing that they were being manipulated, and with
no solid linkages at all being uncovered back to the individual
conspirators during the entire five years the conspiracy has been
under scrutiny. This seems highly improbable to me.

On the other hand, Bin Laden says his guys did it. While I am
looking at Folder A, you might take a look at a book, _Messages to
the World_: The Statements of Bin Laden_, ed. Bruce Lawrence,
Verso, 2005, in statement 19, "Among a Band of Knights", p. 194,
where he says "our attacks" [on the WTC].

Anticipating a possible response, yes, it's true that Bin Laden was
once upon a time a recipient of CIA support in the mujahadin defense
against the Russian occupation in Afghanistan, and may himself be
one of the members of the 9/11 conspiracy.

Could be.

Regards,
Allen Rice
  

Michael,

One quote from Richard Rider I had to respond to.

He said we believe that "thousands of evil government" people

must have

perpetrated this crime. This is a great example of a critic of

9/11 Truth

putting his own words into our mouths.

Rider's statement is simply not true. Most experts in 9-11 truth

believe

the number who plotted it and knew the entire big picture could

have been a

much small number, as small a number as, perhaps, 19 or less (the

official

story had 19 people + OBL as the perpetrators).

Now there are logical reasons for thinking the number could be so

low, and

anyone who wants to skip ahead with the downloadable materials to

look at

Document 90c, and Audio 25a with its accompanying Transcript 25b,

both on

Folder C, will see some cogent, logical reasons why we think so

few could

have been the masterminds in the know and in control of the entire

plot.

But I am telling you, that if these types of issues you may have

which make

it difficult for you to imagine any degree of government

complicity actually

prevent you from looking at the evidence fairly presented by 9/11

Truth

experts, then you are refusing to look at the evidence due to

prejudice

about this case.

You have been told the official story over and over again since

9/11/01 by

the government and the mainstream media. You've seen the

government present

their "case" in the mainstream media, if you use the media, a

lot. Probably

most Americans were exposed to hundreds or even thousands of hours

of

propaganda over the last 5 years propping up the official

government myth.

But prejudice about the case, and having questions like these,

prevent many

people from taking two or three hours to re-examine the evidence

from the

other side.

Imagine of a grand jury presentment. A prosecutor typically will

go to a

grand jury and present all the evidence there is, seeking an

indictment.

What would happen if the foreman of the grand jury had previously

spent 5

years listening to the accused man's attorney tell him the

defense's side of

the story? He'd be disqualified because of not being able to see

the

evidence impartially and would have to recuse him/herself. But

let's just

say that we cannot disqualify the foreman because he's the only

person we've

got. Just like the US citizens are the only ones we've got to

present this

case to in a US jurisdiction. Well, imagine the first day of the

grand jury

convening, the very first minute of the proceedings, the

prosecutor rises to

begin presenting the evidence, and the foreman of the jury rises

and

interrupts the prosecutor before he can say a word. The foreman,

taking the

floor, says, "Listen, I've seen the bloody glove found at the

scene of the

crime, the man accused has hands that are too big to fit the

glove, and

since the glove don't fit, you must acquit. I refuse to listen to

any of

the evidence. The accused could not possibly have done the crime,

I want

the grand jury dismissed without looking at any of the evidence."

That is essentially what a lot of people are doing. They are

refusing to

look at the evidence that has been compiled by 911 Truth. They do

so

because of prejudices formed about the case because of five years

of hearing

the government's case and evidence over and over again.

The hardest part for many people is to actually get around to

looking at the

evidence. It is there in downloadable format and presented in a

sequential,

logical manner.

It is very hard for people to comprehend that the 9/11 Commission

was a

complete fraud and a coverup. It is hard to believe anything but

the

official story for many people. I know the feeling. I myself

believed most

of the official story for at least three years, until I found the

contrary

evidence and took a close look at it. It took me a while to learn

about and

analyze the evidence before I was convinced that we have been lied

to

massively about 9/11.

The only way to get your mind around the "over-the-top" events of

9/11 is to

look at the evidence from the other side, fairly presented. My
downloadable folders make it as easy as possible to do just that.

I know, it's not easy to believe that the government could be

telling

massive lies about 9/11, but if you look at the evidence, you will

see how

big a lie it is.

For all the doubters who are resistant to looking at the evidence,

I

challenge you to look at the evidence. Start with Folder A. It

only takes

an hour or less to go through. If after looking at the first hour

of

evidence, you are 100% sure the government is correct, God bless

you. I

hope that the issues brought up in Folder A will intrigue you

enough so that

you want to look at more of the evidence. In my opinion, this

real-life

story is more intriguing than any fictional movie, book, or crime

story.

The story is truly an amazing one historically, and the number of

dirty

facts about 9/11 that most people don't know are enormous.

The basic summary of our case is:

1. The government story is not only wildly implausible, it is
physically impossible on several counts.
2. The "9/11 Commission" was not an investigation, but a

complete sham

and a cover-up.
3. Most of the strong evidence 9/11 Truth has about this case is
unknown to the large majority of people and has been suppressed by

the all

the mainstream media.
4. Most people have not looked critically at all the evidence

9/11

Truth has which contradict the official government myth.
5. At the very least, we want people to look at the facts. We

think

the facts speak for themselves that 9/11 was not properly

investigated, and

there has been a massive coverup, and massive illegal destruction

of

evidence. We know that the government has confiscated and/or

never released

mountains of crucial evidence, and we want the government to bring

public

any evidence it has not already destroyed.
6. People need to understand the case that the War on Terror

and all

that has come with it has been based on a sacred myth propagated

by the

government which is based on a huge pack of lies of distortion and

omission.

7. Terror is a tool that has been used to manipulate the people

for

political purposes. If we close our eyes and stick our heads in

the sand

and refuse to look at this compelling evidence that has been

hidden from us

by the mainstream media, we are simply asking for more such deadly

terror

events in the future committed by the same network of perpetrators

in order

to manipulate the public. We must neutralize the political tool

of creating

terror, so as to protect us from falling further into a police

state.

I really think this issue is worth at least a couple of hours or

more of any

It's funny, some criticize our movement because we think there are too few
conspirators, some because we think there are too many. The fact is, we
don't really know exactly how many. There are a lot of things we don't
know, but one thing we feel certain of: most significant aspects of the
official story are a BIG lie. Unfortunately, for some who are skeptical, it
does take quite a bit of time for them to review enough evidence to become
convinced. We think the perpetrators were counting on the fact that most
people are not going to put in the time to look at the evidence. Of course
there is always a percentage of people who will believe the official story
no matter how much evidence they see to the contrary. But the more you
know, the more the official story crumbles to shreds.

Jeff

I really hope this "movement" doesn't get off the ground. These conspiracy theorists (along with kooks who turn themselves blue, think we don't have to pay income tax, etc.) are a big reason why the LP has had such little success up to date. Instead of trying to reform the "radical" platform, why not distance ourselves from some of the nutjobs within our own party?

Jeremy

Jeremy,

There may be a misunderstanding here. The 9/11 conspiracy theory
has a much wider membership than just that of a cadre within the
LP. There is overlap of course, since it lends itself to the most
extreme concerns about the extent of statism, but I don't see that
its existence in any way reflects upon the LP per se.

Pace its members here, I think the word "extreme" does apply, since
to believe the conspiracy in all its details, the theorists at some
point are logically forced to conclude that not only are a lot of
the events fabricated, but that the perpetrators are murderers or at
best jailers, of the passengers on board the flight that supposedly
hit the Pentagon, but was instead replaced by a missile. Maybe
that's who all those people at Guantanamo are.

Could be.

Regards,
Allen Rice

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Linden <jlinden@...>
wrote:

> On the other hand, Bin Laden says his guys did it. While I am
> looking at Folder A, you might take a look at a book, _Messages

to

> the World_: The Statements of Bin Laden_, ed. Bruce Lawrence,
> Verso, 2005, in statement 19, "Among a Band of Knights", p. 194,
> where he says "our attacks" [on the WTC].

I really hope this "movement" doesn't get off the ground. These
conspiracy theorists (along with kooks who turn themselves blue,

think

we don't have to pay income tax, etc.) are a big reason why the LP

has had

such little success up to date. Instead of trying to reform

the "radical"

platform, why not distance ourselves from some of the nutjobs

within our

Oh I wasn't implying that the 9/11 conspiracy theories were exclusively within the domain of the LP, but if a vocal percentage of the LP believes in that sort of thing, it's bound to reflect negatively on us as a party of cranks, just like the fact that there have been prominent racists in the Republican party has prevented a large amount of blacks or Jews from joining the party, regardless of their individual interests, and long after most of the racists have retired or died.

Jeremy