Derek:
This is an insightful post, and it rings true to my experience of this exchange. Maybe "patriotism" and "ideology" aren't the best words, but it's clear that my values here are indeed opposite yours. There must be additional explanatory factors beyond growing up in a lower middle class town, though, since I did, too--in Indiana and Arkansas, during the Eisenhower administration.
Dear Derek;
For some background I too grew up in a very samll town which got
started as a farmers milk stop in Illinois during the Eisenhower -
Kennedy Administrations. I can still vividly remember Kennedy doing
his nationally televised Missiles in Cuba speech.
Although we and our neighbors were lower blue collar not middle
class we didn't think of ourselves as such - As the old joke went if
someone said they got to wear new shoes to school the response was -
shoes !!! You had shoes!!!
However, an America First and loyalty over ideology to country can
create some big problems when ideology gets in the way of basic
freedoms and ideology gets trampled all over......
Ron Getty
SF Libertarian
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Acree, Michael" <acreem@o...>
wrote:
Derek:
This is an insightful post, and it rings true to my experience of
this exchange. Maybe "patriotism" and "ideology" aren't the best
words, but it's clear that my values here are indeed opposite
yours. There must be additional explanatory factors beyond growing
up in a lower middle class town, though, since I did, too--in
Indiana and Arkansas, during the Eisenhower administration.
From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-
discuss@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek Jensen
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:30 AM
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: TreasonStarchild:
The plotters who tried to assassinate Hitler were indeed traitors
to the Third Reich, but heroes nonetheless.
Here's the thing which I have concluded through these recent
debates:
At my core, I am an American first and a libertarian second. My
patriotism comes before my ideology. So, my first reaction toward
events tends to be that which advances American interests. This
probably has to do in part with growing up in a lower middle class
town during the Reagan era (I was 8 when he beat Carter) I would
surmise that most of the people on this board place ideology over
loyalty to one's country.
-Derek
> Derek,
>
> Doesn't it depend on who the enemy is, and on the nature
of the
> government being "betrayed?" For instance, the plotters who
tried to
> assassinate Adolf Hitler shouldn't have been punished for
treason,
> should they?
>
> Or what if someone started a libertarian country called
> Oceania, the U.S. government (USgov) reacted hostilely toward
it, and
> an Oceanian sympathizer in the U.S. military gave USgov battle
plans
> to the Oceanian government, or a married libertarian couple gave
the
> Oceanians classified USgov information on building nuclear
weapons?
> Should American libertarians regard such individuals as
traitors, or heros?
> I'd say the latter.
>
> Yours in liberty,
> <<< starchild >>>
>
>
>
> > Starchild:
> >
> > This will take some time to answer properly.
> >
> > I do think that for instance, the Rosenbergs committed treason.
> > Because I don't believe a state has the moral authority to
execute
> > someone,(although I think victims' families do in the case of
a 1st
> > degree capital crime) I would support life in prison for
similar
> > acts to what the Rosenbergs did.
> >
> > There may be other treasonous circumstance, but this is a very
> > complicated topic so I need a few days to think it through.
> >
> > Maybe also a soldier who gives battle plans to the enemy.
> >
> > There may be others. Give me some time.
> >
> > > Derek,
> > >
> > > So you believe that laws against "treason" should be
repealed?
> > If not,
> > > what acts should legally be considered "treason" and remain
> > > against
> > the
> > > law, and how would you justify such laws in libertarian
terms?
> > >
> > > Yours in liberty,
> > > <<< starchild >>>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Allen:
> > > >
> > > > I don't think what I said implies that freedom of speech
is at
> > > > all somehow granted by the government.
> > > >
> > > > I believe one really does have a responsibility to act
> > > > differently when one is outside the USA. When one is
abroad, one
> > > > is a representative of the USA as a whole and should act
that
> > > > way. And, certain limits should be respected by civilized
people
> > > > even with
> > the
> > > > USA -- such as not burning American flags. I would not
support
> > > > government restrictions on any of these things though. It
seems
> > that
> > > > some people on this board are making the mistake of
confusing
> > > > positions I espouse with supporting government
restrictions of
> > > > the same.
> > > >
> > > > People should be free to make asses of themselves even
overseas,
> > just
> > > > as Cindy Sheehan is proving over and over.
> > > >
> > > > Yes I consider Sheehan a traitor and yes I think her
actions are
> > > > probably giving encouragement and relief to the enemy and
> > > > causing
> > many
> > > > more Casey Sheehans to be killed.
> > > >
> > > > All that said, I certainly agree that it is not per se
> > > > unpatriotic
> > to
> > > > oppose and protest a war.
> > > >
> > > > Derek
> > > >
> > > > > This presumption, that a citizen of the United States
may
> > > > > speak freely within the confines of the United States,
but not
> > > > > outside them, implies rather strongly that "freedom of
> > > > > speech", whatever that is, is _granted_ by the
_Government_ of
> > > > > the United States,
> > and
> > > > > somehow disappears if one leaves the country.
> > > > >
> > > > > That diverges radically from my understanding of "rights"
> > (whatever
> > > > > those are), which I had heretofore presumed originated
with
> > > > > the _individual_, with the First Amendment of the US
> > > > > Constitution
> > only
> > > > > attempting to guarantee that the US government would not
> > > > > infringe upon the particular one of "freedom of speech".
> > > > >
> > > > > Ms. Sheehan is a well-intentioned woman whose son has
been
> > killed,
> > > > > in a cause which she considers wrong, and she is trying
to
> > > > > make
> > his
> > > > > death matter. Let her talk. Wrong or right, her words
will
> > have to
> > > > > survive in the marketplace of ideas.
> > > > >
> > > > > [Just to reveal my own personal bias, if her
presentations at
> > > > > all undermine the massive propaganda machinery of the
whole US
> > > > > government, I say good for her.]
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Allen Rice
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Derek Jensen
> > > > > <derekj72@g...>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Michael:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm glad you asked the question you did. I'm horrified
that
> > > > > > I
> > may
> > > > > > have given the impression you apparently got. I should
have
> > been
> > > > > more
> > > > > > clear.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For me, the key factor is whether it's done on
America's
> > shores or
> > > > > > not. To me there is a HUGE difference between
criticizing a
> > war
> > > > > that
> > > > > > one believes to be unjust, and taking such criticism
> > > > > > overseas,
> > as
> > > > > > Sheehan has done. I have near-unlimited tolerance for
the
> > former,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > very very little for the latter. When she was doing
her
> > > > > > thing
> > in
> > > > > > Crawford, she was just another annoying war protestor.
> > > > > > Seeing
> > her
> > > > > > appear outside the US Embassy in Madrid, and alongside
Hugo
> > Chavez
> > > > > in
> > > > > > Caracas is another matter entirely, and to me, comes
very
> > > > > > very
> > > > > close
> > > > > > to giving encouragement to America's enemies - the
same
> > > > > > enemies
> > > > > that
> > > > > > killed her son. How long until she shows up in
Havana? -
> > > > > > note,
> > > > > I'm in
> > > > > > favor of greatly relaxing the embargo against Cuba,
since it
> > should
> > > > > > hasten the arrival of the day when Cubans do to Castro
what
> > > > > > the Romanians did to Ceauºescu.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No, I absolutely do not believe all wars are
justified. For
> > > > > instance,
> > > > > > I believe we should not have been involved in the
Bosnian
> > conflict,
> > > > > > and we should not be involved in Sudan or the Ivory
Coast,
> > because
> > > > > I
> > > > > > don't believe American interests were or are at stake.
> > Whereas in
> > > > > > Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, and North Korea I believe
American
> > > > > interests
> > > > > > are at stake.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Consider Vietnam. While I would have disagreed with
all the
> > > > > > protestors trying to end that conflict, I don't
necessarily
> > > > > consider
> > > > > > any of them unpatriotic for trying to end it, as I
admit
> > > > > > there
> > were
> > > > > > some valid viewpoints. However, working within the US
to
> > > > > > raise consciousness about why one believes a war to be
> > > > > > unjust is
> > entirely
> > > > > > different from what for instance, Jane Fonda did.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Derek
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > View my blog at http://derekj72.blogspot.com
> > > >
> > > <image.tiff>
> > > >
> > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > >
> > > > + Visit your group "lpsf-discuss" on the web.
> > > >
> > > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > lpsf-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of
> > Service.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > <image.tiff>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View my blog at http://derekj72.blogspot.com
> >
> <image.tiff>
> >
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > + Visit your group "lpsf-discuss" on the web.
> >
> > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > lpsf-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service.
Yes it can, but in that case I would say losing those liberties would
obviously be bad for America and Americans, so I would oppose whoever
was in charge of USGov at the time. Patriotism is not blind
allegiance.
Just be thankful you didn't grow up around the cult of Kennedy, like I
did in Massachusetts.