RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Prop. 75

Dear Franklin,

It seems we are no longer discussing Prop 75. While not easy to digest from a libertarian perspective, I say the fact that government mandates union membership to be hired by government...and on top of that the "public service" workers can still have the right to quite en mass while striking makes it at least reasonable for one to vote for this for no other reason than to knock the union leadership off their high horse....not exactly libertarian but it seems we can't agree about what that means anyway.

It's clear to everyone I know and work with that the security they have (my liability) when working with my C-corp or any other limited liability company, short of criminal behavior, stops at the company door. If most people don't realize that or wish it was different or didn't agree to it in advance doesn't mean that it's force, government regulation, deceit or anything else. This is information that's commonly understood, taught in school, available on websites all over the place. It's something people should be smart enough to know and inquire about when making business decisions. If people want me to take more risk, there are plenty of more expensive alternatives to my business model. It appears to me that my customers have chosen the reduced security of my limited liability business in exchange for the reduced cost of doing business with me. I could easily increase my ability to accept liability but at a cost my customers don't want to pay beyond my $2M per occurrence liability insurance policy.

The fact that someone doesn't know that taking something from a store without paying is stealing doesn't put the burden on the store owner to have a signed agreement with a purchaser that they understand their obligation to pay unless pre-arranged credit is part of the transaction. The same holds true of someone buying something from someone in a limited liability form. There's no reason to suggest that the seller is obligated to get an agreement from the purchaser that they agree to the limited liability in the transaction in advance. Of course the buyer is perfectly free to attempt to get that if they want. But I don't see where it's an obligation of the seller to make it a part of the transaction. I also think it's silly and naïve for someone to believe that they can get a complete assumption from sellers without their obligation to pay for it. Perhaps something like this would work....Apple $1 - Apple with unlimited liability insurance $100.

Am I missing something here? And what does Mr. Ellerman's paper have to do with this subject?

Mike

Dear Franklin,

vote for this for no other reason than to knock the union leadership

off their high horse....not exactly libertarian but it seems we can't
agree about what that means anyway.

I think we exactly agree on what libertarian means, and why I am not
libertarian. I am not interested in knocking down unions, but I do
have some interest in knocking down corporations. What would be nice,
and would benefit the Libertarian Party, would be to broaden the
meaning of "libertarian" to include everyone who wants more freedom,
not just the pro-corporate kind.

It appears to me that my customers have chosen the reduced security

of my limited liability business in exchange for the reduced cost of
doing business with me.

I doubt your customers have thought this through. They probably do
business with you because they want your products or services. They
accept the limitation of liability because it is common and isn't a
dominant factor in practical decision making. If limitation of
liability only occurred in contracts, then customers would give this
question more thought because it would be negotiable. As it is, with
limited liability being an intrinsic part of a corporation, your
customers can't easily negotiate this point separately. So making
limited liability part of the corporate bundle, as opposed to part of
contracts, limits choice.

Suppose there was a form of business that allowed the business to kill
anyone who did business with them. (This is absurd, but that is the
point.) Someone doing business with a company of this kind could
include in a contract a restriction that the company would not kill
them, but this would not be the default. So smart people would either
not do business with companies of this kind or would have airtight
contracts protecting them. Not so smart people may do business with
such companies, especially if the companies are smooth talking and
downplay the the risks. Is this right? Should people be able to give
up their right to protection from murder just by doing business with
such a company? I think not. Giving up rights is a serious thing and
should only be possible through contracts, not through mere business
relationships. And that is the problem with limited liability
corporations, that anyone doing business with them is giving up their
right to full legal protection.

And what does Mr. Ellerman's paper have to do with this subject?

The relevant part is the conflict between contracts and inalienable
rights.