RE: Excellent Letter to the Editor in today's Chronicle [1 Attachment]

I don't think WE (the LPSF or libertarians generally) have been particularly involved in the Middle East.

  I agree that *the U.S. government* is incapable of fixing the Middle East; I won't venture a guess as to the total net effect of its involvement there.

  Other than the implicit "nationalist we", I agree a good letter. Particularly the point about how casualties from a minor involvement can progressively lead to greater involvement.

  Coincidentally, just listening to the song "War" by Chuck D (of Public Enemy) vs. Ticc Tacc, featuring Ambersunshower (lyric: "Time to go to war again" -- MP3 file attached if anyone's interested).

Love & Liberty,
                               ((( starchild )))

Starchild,

Thanks for continually reminding us “we” are not the State.

The State is a terrorist organization and “we” are its hapless victims.

Warm regards, Michael

[Attachment(s) from Starchild included below]
I don't think WE (the LPSF or libertarians generally) have been particularly involved in the Middle East.

I agree that *the U.S. government* is incapable of fixing the Middle East; I won't venture a guess as to the total net effect of its involvement there.

Other than the implicit "nationalist we", I agree a good letter. Particularly the point about how casualties from a minor involvement can progressively lead to greater involvement.

Coincidentally, just listening to the song "War" by Chuck D (of Public Enemy) vs. Ticc Tacc, featuring Ambersunshower (lyric: "Time to go to war again" -- MP3 file attached if anyone's interested).

Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))

Hi Michael and Starchild,

And I always disagree with this point of view. "We" means "We the People" who have a responsibility as citizens of the United States of America (whether native born or naturalized) to choose representatives in government who have a modicum of respect to the U.S. Constitution. If we choose to be anarchists, choose to be "takers" (vote for those who give out freebies rather than stick to the Constitutions mandates of upholding individuals rights and property), or choose to be in the outside looking in, then we have no one to blame but ourselves that those who govern are rogues.

This is not an idle discussion (especially since this is the Activist List). It is my expression of hope that LPSF does not drift to the outside, where it only looks in and plays "ain't it awful."

Marcy

Thanks, Marcy.

You can continue to be the great activist you’ve been while not buying into the “we” trap the State needs you to fall into for its survival.

Warm regards, Michael

Thanks, Michael! Apropos of this thread, I just came across the following quote attributed to Confucius:

"Asked by a disciple how to rule a state properly, Confucius replies that it begins with rectifying the names:

'If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be conducted successfully. When affairs cannot be conducted successfully, propriety will not flourish. When propriety does not flourish, punishments will not be properly meted out. When punishments are not properly meted out, the people will not know how to conduct themselves.'”

http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2011/03/27/calling-things-by-their-right-names-a-lesson-from-confucius/

Love & Liberty,
                                  ((( starchild )))

Marcy,

  Should I blame myself for the voting choices of others? Should I blame myself for the actions of those in government who act contrary to the preferences I express through my votes and my activist civic engagement? Say not so! Regarding "responsibility as citizens", a recent favorite mantra of mine is this:

"Citizenship is just another Big Government program."

  Labeling some people "citizens" and others "non-citizens" (or "foreigners" or "aliens") is a means for government to extract money from people; to divide them against each other; to dole out privileges and obligations as it chooses; to ignore the basic human right to equal treatment under the law and discriminate on the basis of nationality.

Love & Liberty,
                                 ((( starchild )))

Magnificent!

  Thanks, Michael! Apropos of this thread, I just came across the following quote attributed to Confucius:

"Asked by a disciple how to rule a state properly, Confucius replies that it begins with rectifying the names:

'If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be conducted successfully. When affairs cannot be conducted successfully, propriety will not flourish. When propriety does not flourish, punishments will not be properly meted out. When punishments are not properly meted out, the people will not know how to conduct themselves.'”

Love & Liberty,
                                  ((( starchild )))

Starchild,

We certainly will forever and ever agree to disagree! Good we live "here" and not in North Korea, or both our heads would roll.

BTW, I do like the Confucius quote, but note that he never did answer the question.

Marcy

---In lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com, <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote :

Marcy,

Should I blame myself for the voting choices of others? Should I blame myself for the actions of those in government who act contrary to the preferences I express through my votes and my activist civic engagement? Say not so! Regarding "responsibility as citizens", a recent favorite mantra of mine is this:

"Citizenship is just another Big Government program."

Labeling some people "citizens" and others "non-citizens" (or "foreigners" or "aliens") is a means for government to extract money from people; to divide them against each other; to dole out privileges and obligations as it chooses; to ignore the basic human right to equal treatment under the law and discriminate on the basis of nationality.

Love & Liberty,
                                  ((( starchild )))

Starchild,

Over the years you’ve written many fabulous emails addressing immigration, borders, and people’s tacit assumptions which reinforce the legitimacy of the State. Your arguments frequently deconstruct down to their elemental level people’s basic thoughts and perceptions. I hope you’re saving them for a book of collected essays to be published one day!

Warm regards, Michael

Marcy,

  Should I blame myself for the voting choices of others? Should I blame myself for the actions of those in government who act contrary to the preferences I express through my votes and my activist civic engagement? Say not so! Regarding "responsibility as citizens", a recent favorite mantra of mine is this:

"Citizenship is just another Big Government program."

  Labeling some people "citizens" and others "non-citizens" (or "foreigners" or "aliens") is a means for government to extract money from people; to divide them against each other; to dole out privileges and obligations as it chooses; to ignore the basic human right to equal treatment under the law and discriminate on the basis of nationality.

Love & Liberty,
                                 ((( starchild )))

Hi Michael and Starchild,

And I always disagree with this point of view. "We" means "We the People" who have a responsibility as citizens of the United States of America (whether native born or naturalized) to choose representatives in government who have a modicum of respect to the U.S. Constitution. If we choose to be anarchists, choose to be "takers" (vote for those who give out freebies rather than stick to the Constitutions mandates of upholding individuals rights and property), or choose to be in the outside looking in, then we have no one to blame but ourselves that those who govern are rogues.

This is not an idle discussion (especially since this is the Activist List). It is my expression of hope that LPSF does not drift to the outside, where it only looks in and plays "ain't it awful."

Marcy

To: lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com
From: lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 12:04:46 -0700
Subject: Re: [lpsf-activists] Excellent Letter to the Editor in today's Chronicle

Starchild,

Thanks for continually reminding us “we” are not the State.

The State is a terrorist organization and “we” are its hapless victims.

Warm regards, Michael

I don't think WE (the LPSF or libertarians generally) have been particularly involved in the Middle East.

I agree that *the U.S. government* is incapable of fixing the Middle East; I won't venture a guess as to the total net effect of its involvement there.

Other than the implicit "nationalist we", I agree a good letter. Particularly the point about how casualties from a minor involvement can progressively lead to greater involvement.

Coincidentally, just listening to the song "War" by Chuck D (of Public Enemy) vs. Ticc Tacc, featuring Ambersunshower (lyric: "Time to go to war again" -- MP3 file attached if anyone's interested).

Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))

Wow, so true. Good work, Marc. Furthermore, not only are not capable of fixing the Middle East, we have contributed to messing it up some more in my view.

Marcy

To: lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com
From: lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 18:51:01 -0700
Subject: [lpsf-activists] RE: Excellent Letter to the Editor in today's Chronicle

Thanks, Francoise. Here’s the link: http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/letterstoeditor/article/Letters-to-the-editor-June-30-5588326.php

Marc

From: francoise@thefieldingcompanies.com [mailto:francoise@thefieldingcompanies.com]
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 6:30 PM
To: lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Marc Joffe
Subject: Excellent Letter to the Editor in today's Chronicle

Marc Joffe wrote an excellent Letter to the Editor in today's San Francisco Chronicle about Obama's decision to send military advisers to Iraq.

I can't send the link because I was reading a paper copy but it is worth looking at.

Great job, Marc.

Francoise

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Thanks, Marcy.

I’m curious. Some democracies have transitioned into tyrannies and others seem to be moving in this direction. Do the “citizens” continue to be responsible for the Govt that rules them under these circumstances?

Warm regards, Michael

Starchild,

We certainly will forever and ever agree to disagree! Good we live "here" and not in North Korea, or both our heads would roll.

BTW, I do like the Confucius quote, but note that he never did answer the question.

Marcy

---In lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com, <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote :

Marcy,

  Should I blame myself for the voting choices of others? Should I blame myself for the actions of those in government who act contrary to the preferences I express through my votes and my activist civic engagement? Say not so! Regarding "responsibility as citizens", a recent favorite mantra of mine is this:

"Citizenship is just another Big Government program."

  Labeling some people "citizens" and others "non-citizens" (or "foreigners" or "aliens") is a means for government to extract money from people; to divide them against each other; to dole out privileges and obligations as it chooses; to ignore the basic human right to equal treatment under the law and discriminate on the basis of nationality.

Love & Liberty,
                                 ((( starchild )))

Thank you for your kind words, Michael. I do save my old messages, although a hard drive wipeout years ago means some may be gone. A book would be a fine idea. Not sure I have the patience to go back and cull through all those emails though! If you find someone who'd like to do it, please let me know.

Love & Liberty,
                               ((( starchild )))

Hi Michael,

Yes! Who else? One example of the scenario you are describing is "here." The way I see it, We the People are sliding into a full fledged tyranny because everybody, from "the poor" to the bloated corporate CEO, want a nanny state not a republic. Nanny states are the first phase of a tyranny.

Those of us who vote for Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, or John Dennis are not part of the scenario you portray in my view, but we are outnumbered by those who do not vote at all, or vote for those who promise a nanny state.

Another scenario is tyranny by armed conflict. Well, that is why I believe that without the Second Amendment all other Amendments are meaningless. Again, up to We the People to preserve liberty.

Again, this is not a philosophical discussion, but something the LPSF in particular and the Libertarian Party as a whole needs to sort out.

As a complete aside, no connection with anything: Even my beloved Ron Paul made me think today "What?" In the Economic Policy Journal of today, he was quoted as saying something to the effect that nowadays 4th of July has become a celebration of "government" i.e. tyranny. So, Michael, your viewpoint enjoys good company! (Google Economic Policy Journal).

Marcy