Range Voting and Bylaws

In a grass roots effort to get Range Voting popularized and used, I'm
contacting organizations like the ToastMasters, and food coops that
have elections for their board members, and that sort of thing, trying
to get them to adopt Range Voting.

Since we're all bright, analytical libertarians here, I assume it
shouldn't be hard to convince most of you that Range Voting is a
superior voting method to the other options. In that case, I would
like to get the LPSF using it ASAP. What kind of work would that
process take? Feel free to contact me personally via email or phone
to discuss it, anyone who's interested in that sort of thing.

Regards,
Clay
415.240.1973
thebrokenladder@...

Clay:
Come to the next LPSF meeting April 14th at Milano's
Pizza on 9th Avenue (off of Irving) 3-5 pm and explain
it to us. if you definitely plan
to come, let us know and let us know how long you need
and we will put you on the agenda.
Francoise

--- brokenladdercalendar <thebrokenladder@...>
wrote:

In a grass roots effort to get Range Voting
popularized and used, I'm
contacting organizations like the ToastMasters, and
food coops that
have elections for their board members, and that
sort of thing, trying
to get them to adopt Range Voting.

Since we're all bright, analytical libertarians
here, I assume it
shouldn't be hard to convince most of you that Range
Voting is a
superior voting method to the other options. In
that case, I would
like to get the LPSF using it ASAP. What kind of
work would that
process take? Feel free to contact me personally
via email or phone
to discuss it, anyone who's interested in that sort
of thing.

Regards,
Clay
415.240.1973
thebrokenladder@...

Francoise Fielding
820 Stanyan Street,#5
San Francisco, CA 94117
415-386-8643

Clay,

I also would like to encourage you to come to the next LPSF meeting
and do a presentation on how the LPSF, other organizations, and
voters would benefit from range voting. I am especially interested
in learning the difference, if any, between range voting and the
current system San Francisco uses for local elections.

Regards,

Marcy

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Francoise Fielding <mdm2548@...>
wrote:

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Francoise Fielding <mdm2548@...>
wrote:

Clay:
Come to the next LPSF meeting April 14th at Milano's
Pizza on 9th Avenue (off of Irving) 3-5 pm and explain
it to us. if you definitely plan
to come, let us know and let us know how long you need
and we will put you on the agenda.
Francoise

Plan on it. I would ask anyone who is going to attend to check this
out if you have time.

http://reformthelp.org/issues/voting/range.php

That will get you basically 99.9% familiarized with the concept, and
then I can address specific questions or concerns at the time.

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Amarcy D. Berry" <amarcyb@...>
wrote:

Clay,

I also would like to encourage you to come to the next LPSF meeting
and do a presentation on how the LPSF, other organizations, and
voters would benefit from range voting. I am especially interested
in learning the difference, if any, between range voting and the
current system San Francisco uses for local elections.

Regards,

Marcy

Marcy,

I would be happy to do that, but I would ask you to begin with an
introduction, such as

http://RangeVoting.org/IRV.html

Then our time could be more valuable, because you could bring up
specific questions or comments, and you'd already be familiar with
IRV's problems. We currently use a bastardized form of IRV in San
Francisco elections. It is (reprehensibly) called "ranked choice
voting". Someone failed to tell the people behind this that ALL
ordinal voting methods (e.g. Condorcet, Borda, Top2Runoff) are "ranked
choice". Range Voting is cardinal, not ordinal.

The link above should more than adequately explain why Range Voting is
superior to IRV, and then I can expand upon that. One thing about
this type of discussion though, is that it's very hard to have in
person. It's much easier to have it online, where I can cite pages
with graphs, heaps of mathematical calculations, etc. There are a
million things that someone could bring up in person where I'd need to
pull up a web page to address his specific comment with the
appropriate rigor. But whatever, I'll do my best, even without an Al
Gore power point presentation.

CLAY

Howdy,

Agreed that IRV is inferior to almost all other voting methods,
including Plurality. Approval Voting is generally preferable to Range
Voting since it's easier to implement, and voter behavior in Range
devolves to Approval anyway. Of course, any election method involving
casting and counting votes is prone to strategic voting behavior, so
I'm skeptical of the value of spending time on such an overhaul of the
election system; as long as we're counting votes, Plurality has the
huge advantage of simplicity and understandability, and is, at least,
not the worst system available.

For our own uses within the LPSF, we seldom have more than 2
candidates for any office anyway. We often come to something close to
consensus on decisions about who's doing what. We've actually used
Approval Voting a few times when choosing among several options for a
project, say, or a meeting location. We're pretty fluid about such
things.

If we're talking about different ways to choose officers, I might
suggest some combination of lottery and rotation of duties more often
than yearly. (Lottery is, by the way, the most representative election
method, and the only one not prone to strategic voting behavior!)
There are several of us who want to be involved and doing work for the
organization but have difficulty allocating the necessary time; a
structure for sharing duties might help more of us be more involved.

Cheers,
Justin

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Justin T. Sampson"
<justintsampson@...> wrote:

Agreed that IRV is inferior to almost all other voting methods,
including Plurality. Approval Voting is generally preferable to Range
Voting since it's easier to implement, and voter behavior in Range
devolves to Approval anyway.

Ludicrous.

1) The "complexity" of having, say, a 0-10 row of circles to fill in,
instead of a "yay" or "nay" option for a candidate is negligible, and
(this next part is IMPORTANT)

2) Range Voting produces a HUGELY greater voter satisfaction index, e.g.

Range (honest voters) 96.71%
Approval (honest voters) 86.30%

3) Real world studies indicate that somewhere around 75% of voters
will vote HONESTLY under Range Voting, meaning that the better part of
that enormous 10% difference above will be netted by using Range Voting.

4) Voters especially tend to be strategic about strong candidates
(polarizing their min/max scores for the perceived front-runners) but
they tend to be HONESTY about candidates they don't perceive to have
much of a chance anyway, which leads to the (extremely important for
third parties!!!)...

5) "nursery effect":
Copied from RangeVoting.org/rangeVapp.html :

That is, small "helpless infant" third parties all receive hugely
larger totals under range voting than approval voting. That (we
hypothesize) is due to honest range voters who under approval voting
feel forced to dishonestly give those parties exactly zero. This
effect causes small third parties to be capable of attracting donors
and supporters and candidates â€" and therefore to be capable of growing
into big "grown-up" parties with range voting. With approval voting,
it may be that third parties will simply never be able to break out of
infancy.

This is an advantage of range voting over approval voting from the
point of view of third parties â€" all US third parties would have
gotten 2% or less under approval voting in 2004 and hence qualify as
"helpless infants." But, e.g, Michael Badnarik, the Libertarian
party's presidential candidate, who got 0.3% under plurality in 2004,
would have gotten 0.6% under approval and 9% under range. Range from
his view was 15 times better than approval.

Here is the world's only actual data (as of 2005) about range &
approval voting vis-a-vis US third parties â€" given in my paper (#82
here) coauthored with Doug Greene & Jacqueline Quintal.

This is based on a pseudo-election we conducted with real US voters
(122 range voters and 656 approval voters) simultaneously with the
2004 presidential election (as an exit poll).

2004 results: Candidate Plur RV AV

Bush(Rep) 50.7 40 39
Kerry(Dem) 48.3 55 61
Nader 0.38 25 21
Badnarik 0.32 9 0.6
Cobb 0.10 5 2
Peroutka 0.12 6 1
Calero 0.003 4 0
Total3rd 0.92 49 25

Of course, any election method involving
casting and counting votes is prone to strategic voting behavior, so
I'm skeptical of the value of spending time on such an overhaul of the
election system; as long as we're counting votes, Plurality has the
huge advantage of simplicity and understandability, and is, at least,
not the worst system available.

Yes, a certain fraction of voters will always be strategic. So WHAT?!
Range Voting produces a MUCH greater voter satisfaction index if
voters are TOTALLY STRATEGIC than plurality produces if they are
TOTALLY HONEST.

Let me phrase it another way. Range Voting is as big of an
improvement over plurality as plurality is over RANDOM SELECTION -
_especially_ if voters are strategic.

These are some cold hard facts that you should take very seriously.
Since the point of voting is to derive satisfaction with the resulting
choice, you want a voting method that makes you as satisfied as
possible. Range Voting decimates plurality in that regard. Here's an
excellent example of why that is.

#voters - their order of preference
28 A>B>C>D
25 B>C>D>A
24 C>D>B>A
23 D>C>B>A

In this situation, A would lose to any opponent in a head-to-head
election by a huge 72-to-28 margin, far larger than the hugest
"landslide" in US presidential election history. And A is ranked dead
last by 72% of the voters.

But thanks to the insanely idiotic plurality, aka "first past the
post" voting system, A is elected with 28% of the vote, beating out
everybody else (with ≤25% each).

For our own uses within the LPSF, we seldom have more than 2
candidates for any office anyway. We often come to something close to
consensus on decisions about who's doing what.

There's no such thing as "consensus". Having 100% of people prefer
the same person out of even two choices is very unlikely. A more
realistic approach is "greatest satisfaction".

And to the extent that people vote honestly with Range Voting, the
overall happiness people feel with the result is greater. Even if
everyone votes strategically, causing RV to "degrade" to approval
(which in the case of just two candidates degrades to plurality), it
is still symbolic to say that we use Range Voting. We are helping the
push and popularize a voting method that is CRUCIAL to our relevance
as a party.

We've actually used
Approval Voting a few times when choosing among several options for a
project, say, or a meeting location. We're pretty fluid about such
things.

Well that's good, because Approval voting is the second best voting
method; it literally IS Range Voting, with just two options instead
of, say, 10. Of course there's also the fact that with Range Voting,
we can gracefully add the "no opinion" option, to diminish the harm
caused by voter ignorance (and as exit polls show, a lot of people
will use it).

If we're talking about different ways to choose officers, I might
suggest some combination of lottery and rotation of duties more often
than yearly. (Lottery is, by the way, the most representative election
method, and the only one not prone to strategic voting behavior!)

Wrong on both counts. Randomly selecting people for a council, from
the public, may produce candidates who are statistically
representative of the electorate, but by no means does it guarantee
that they are qualified for the job, in terms of having good
organizational skills, public speaking ability, the temperament to
work well with others, etc.

Reweighted Range Voting (http://RangeVoting.org/RRV.html) is a
proportional method that is effectively perfectly representative, but
also requires that people impress the voters enough with their skills
to prove at least some of their performance abilities. That is, can
they actually handle the job.

Second, lottery methods are not the only type of strategy-proof voting
method. See CTT voting. http://RangeVoting.org/CTT.html

You know enough about voting methods to be dangerous, but you could
learn a lot by joining our discussion group -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RangeVoting

Regards,
Clay

... and you want the voters to accept it?

The superiority of a particular voting scheme is immaterial if it's not
implemented; it will only be implemented if the voters vote for it; and
they will only vote for it if they not only like it but are not afraid of
it.

If it involves math and graphs, they will flee in terror.

If you can pitch it to the relatively intelligent LPSF membership in
short, declarative sentences, without math, and without graphs, then it
might have a chance. Otherwise, you are tilting at windmills.

~Chris

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher R. Maden"
<crism@...> wrote:

... and you want the voters to accept it?

Yes. And if they are in a third party, they had damned well BETTER
accept it, or else.

The superiority of a particular voting scheme is immaterial if it's not
implemented..
If it involves math and graphs, they will flee in terror.

Just like they did when they saw _An Inconvenient Truth_, eh? Maybe
you're wrong, and they'd actually give me an Oscar or two.

If you can pitch it to the relatively intelligent LPSF membership in
short, declarative sentences, without math, and without graphs, then it
might have a chance. Otherwise, you are tilting at windmills.

What on earth do you mean "without math"?! The data that shows it is
better is NUMERICAL. That's like asking someone to present the
results of a fuel-efficiency test on a bunch of vehicles,
"without math". That is an absurd request/expectation. While the
average voter may not be a math genius, the challenge is to make the
math comprehensible to people, not to just eliminate the discussion of it.

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher R. Maden"

If it involves math and graphs, they will flee in terror.
If you can pitch it to the relatively intelligent LPSF membership in
short, declarative sentences, without math, and without graphs, then it
might have a chance. Otherwise, you are tilting at windmills.

Furthermore, who would "flee in terror" at the huge disparities in
satisfaction documented here

http://RangeVoting.org/vsr.html

Clay,

  The movie "An Inconvenient Truth" was popular because people can understand the simple message "The earth's climate is getting rapidly warmer, this is a bad thing, and it's humanity's fault" even if they don't understand the math and graphs. (In fact it's probably better from the film producers' perspective if they *don't* understand the math and graphs, since much of the data is suspect!)

  Asking people to adopt a different voting system runs counter to their fear of change, rather than exploiting it as Al Gore does. I think Chris makes a valid point -- if voters are going to accept range voting, it can't be so complicated that you need to use a bunch of numbers and charts to explain it properly.

  It can of course be argued that much of what Libertarians talk about has equally low chances of being accepted by the voters any time soon. But a policy issue like the Drug War or taxation has a direct relation to peoples' lives. Educating people about an issue like that has value even if it doesn't immediately change their behavior in the voting booth. By contrast, a discussion of voting methods is primarily technical, so educating people about this has less inherent connection to libertarianism.

  I'm not weighing in on the merits of range voting one way or the other. Frankly the concept is not solid in my head yet. But if I'm going to spend time talking about this instead of policy issues, I want to make sure the proposal has practical value, because in strict philosophical terms my time would be better spent talking about government oppression.

  Can you boil it down to a few sentences that capture the essential essence of range voting and why it's better than what's in use now?

Love & liberty,
        <<< starchild >>>

Thank you, Clay. I have printed the article on Reformtheparty and
will read it before the next meeting.

Marcy

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "brokenladdercalendar"
<thebrokenladder@...> wrote:

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Amarcy D. Berry" <amarcyb@>
wrote:
>
> Clay,
>
> I also would like to encourage you to come to the next LPSF

meeting

> and do a presentation on how the LPSF, other organizations, and
> voters would benefit from range voting. I am especially

interested

> in learning the difference, if any, between range voting and the
> current system San Francisco uses for local elections.
>
> Regards,
>
> Marcy

Marcy,

I would be happy to do that, but I would ask you to begin with an
introduction, such as

http://RangeVoting.org/IRV.html

Then our time could be more valuable, because you could bring up
specific questions or comments, and you'd already be familiar with
IRV's problems. We currently use a bastardized form of IRV in San
Francisco elections. It is (reprehensibly) called "ranked choice
voting". Someone failed to tell the people behind this that ALL
ordinal voting methods (e.g. Condorcet, Borda, Top2Runoff)

are "ranked

choice". Range Voting is cardinal, not ordinal.

The link above should more than adequately explain why Range Voting

is

superior to IRV, and then I can expand upon that. One thing about
this type of discussion though, is that it's very hard to have in
person. It's much easier to have it online, where I can cite pages
with graphs, heaps of mathematical calculations, etc. There are a
million things that someone could bring up in person where I'd need

to

pull up a web page to address his specific comment with the
appropriate rigor. But whatever, I'll do my best, even without an

Al

  The movie "An Inconvenient Truth" was popular because people

can

understand the simple message "The earth's climate is getting

rapidly

warmer, this is a bad thing, and it's humanity's fault" even if

they

don't understand the math and graphs. (In fact it's probably better
from the film producers' perspective if they *don't* understand the
math and graphs, since much of the data is suspect!)

No WAY. Anyone can make a documentary saying "Earth is warming".
And there has been talk about it for years, that many people readily
dismissed as hype. Without those charts and graphs, and cross
section views of ice shelves, and animations of global current
patterns - all those countless minutes of more and more mountains of
evidence, the message would have been as dismissible as before. Only
by driving the message home with that kind of visceral palpable
visual data do people really understand the gravity of the subject.
Same goes for anything of a highly scientific nature, like voting
methods. You MUST give people the cold hard mathematical data to
talk about the superiority of one voting method over another, no
matter how slickly you have to word it, no matter how much you have
to simplify it. If the data's not there, there's nothing objective
and powerful that you can say. I supposed the most you could do is
say, "Range Voting will destroy two-party duopoly" - but most people
don't even CARE about that.

Asking people to adopt a different voting system runs counter to

their

fear of change, rather than exploiting it as Al Gore does.

Not if properly explained. You see, world-ending stuff like the Iraq
war (which has radically altered the world political landscape, and
has likely catalyzed WW3) AND global warming, are issues that we can
directly see have resulted from election problems - despite the
massive election fraud that took place in Florida, a good voting
system like Range Voting, would have elected a leader who would
obviously not have waged this ridiculous and pointless war in Iraq.
In fact, the leader who would most likely have been elected would
have been Gore himself, number one champion of the global cooling
movement.

So the challenge lies in properly framing the debate. What's a
bigger change, changing the voting method, or changing the very
nature of modern civilization?

I think
Chris makes a valid point -- if voters are going to accept range
voting, it can't be so complicated that you need to use a bunch of
numbers and charts to explain it properly.

You could have said the same thing to Al Gore, but as his movie well
shows, with all his monetary resources and Hollywood connections
still chose to...use lots of charts and graphs, and science speak,
rather than resort to empty assertion. If he hadn't used that
tactic, whan on Earth would have been his alternative? To just stand
there and say, "global warming is real, take my word for it"??

If it's good enough for Gore's crusade, I say it's probably a well
chosen tactic. If you think I'd get farther by just telling people
that Range Voting is "so great, you just gotta believe me", then I'd
like to see some evidence of that. While the FairVote propaganda
machine has managed to get somewhere using this tactic (get there
first, and tell lots and lots of lies), their deception is now
catching up with them as more and more people are coming to find out
the truth.

It's an inconvenient truth of our own, that we have to use some
relatively intricate math to show much of the concrete proof of Range
Voting's superiority. But that evidence is so incredibly valuable
that we cannot simply fail to mention it. We've just got to do our
best to make it pallatable to the layperson, as well as get math and
politics figures in academia, and leaders of political groups, to
embrace it - then a lot of their followers will trust it implicitly.
Just look at IRV for instance - many (most!) of its adherents don't
have the first clue of how it really works in the real world
(e.g.when people are strategic); yet they trust it because they have
been told by political leaders/pundits/journalists/etc. that it is
the greatest thing since sliced bread. If the IRV movement can get
that far with lies, I think the Range Voting movement can get far
with massive VALID SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE, and a lot of hard work.

  It can of course be argued that much of what Libertarians

talk about

has equally low chances of being accepted by the voters any time

soon.

But that's because a lot of people don't want it. But Range Voting
is something they absolutely want - it literally increases their
expected satisfaction with the outcome of elections, HUGELY. Once
any sane person comprehends this, he should be adamantly demanding
Range Voting. That doesn't mean _everyone_ will, because not
everyone is rational. But it means that plenty of people will want
Range Voting purely for their own personal gain - for totally selfish
reasons - if nothing else. All it takes is a bit of education, which
is far less education than it takes to explain to people why a free
market is better for them (imagine how long it takes for instance, to
watch "Free to Choose" in its entirety).

But a policy issue like the Drug War or taxation has a direct

relation

to peoples' lives.

Who do you think SETS those policies? You want to talk about TAXES?
Look at this WAR. Why are we in it? Because of electoral failure.
Even with all the vote fraud, Bush still only won by a paltry 537
votes in Florida. He would almost certaintly have lost with a better
voting method, because 97,388 Floridians voted for Nader - most of
whom would have supported just about anyone over Bush.

So take all those policies that you think are so important, and put
them to the side. If you don't change the voting method, people
aren't going to tend to get what they want, even if they WANT
Libertarian policies, because bad voting methods pick the wrong
winners, and thus the wrong policies.

And while people of every different stripe may vehemently disagree
about _policies_, they should all UNIFY behind Range Voting, because
it's beneficial to EVERYONE. That's something you can't say about
many political reforms.

I'm not weighing in on the merits of range voting one way or the
other. Frankly the concept is not solid in my head yet.

Tell me what's not solid to you yet. Range Voting is monotonic,
independent of irrelevant alternatives, simple to use and count, and
will make voters far happer, on average, than other voting methods.
I repeat again, Range Voting is as big of an improvement over
plurality voting, as plurality is over RANDOM SELECTION.

But if I'm
going to spend time talking about this instead of policy issues, I

want

to make sure the proposal has practical value, because in strict
philosophical terms my time would be better spent talking about
government oppression.

It couldn't be more practical. It's by far the most important issue
in the world, hands down. No comparison. None.

Can you boil it down to a few sentences that capture the essential
essence of range voting and why it's better than what's in use now?

Well, I hope you've taken the time to read these two pages, which
should copiously answer that kind of question

http://reformthelp.org/issues/voting/range.php
http://RangeVoting.org/vsr.html

But let's just put it in the simplest terms imaginable. Let's not
talk about two-party duopoly, because that's not even an issue when
we're talking about using Range Voting for organizations. Let's just
talk about one issue - your satisfaction with the election results.
Voter satisfaction index, or "social utility efficiency" in economics
speak.

For anyone who has ever taken a basic economics or stats class, or
gambled, the concept of "expected value" is familiar - probability of
earnings and losses times the winnings or losses. A wise player
wants to maximize his expected value in a transaction. That's
precisely the point of a voting method. What is a voting method?
Simple a way of having a group make a choice. When an individual
makes a choice, he devises a rough aggregate value of each option
(say a bunch of cars he's deciding between), and picks the option
with the greatest net value, or "utility". When extrapolated to a
choice in which more than one person participates, the exact same
rule should hold. The best voting system is the one which maximizes
the expected satisfaction of the electorate, and in turn of each
voter. That is precisely what Range Voting does.

So lets extrapolate backwards, to the point of view of you, as a
single voter - a dictator, making a personal choice for yourself.
That's a pretty libertarian concept. Say we give you a choice of
five random meals to eat each night, and you have to eat one of them,
and only one. Say we picked each meal for you at random - we,
the "government" know what's best for you. That would be, by
definition, a voter satisfaction index of 0 - total randomness. Now
say we did that for a week, but on the second week we let you CHOOSE
which of the five options you wanted. That would be a voter
satisfaction index of 100%, by definition. Now say we found a way to
limit your options such that your expected satisfaction with your
meal each night would be approximately the average of random
selection and 100% free choice. That would be a voter satisfaction
index of 50%. Now look at the satisfaction indices (called "ratios",
but we're going to change the wording soon) at
http://RangeVoting.org/vsr.html

I hope this example helps you to understand the significance of these
figures. Range Voting makes you HUGELY more happy than plurality,
and pretty much every other voting method conceivable.

CLAY

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Amarcy D. Berry" <amarcyb@...>
wrote:

Thank you, Clay. I have printed the article on Reformtheparty and
will read it before the next meeting.
Marcy

Marcy! Why did you print it?! That kills trees!!!

No WAY. Anyone can make a documentary saying "Earth is warming".
And there has been talk about it for years, that many people readily
dismissed as hype. Without those charts and graphs, and cross
section views of ice shelves, and animations of global current
patterns - all those countless minutes of more and more mountains of
evidence, the message would have been as dismissible as before.

How many people, do you estimate, saw _An Inconvenient Truth_ who didn't
already believe that manmade global warming is happening?

For anyone who has ever taken a basic economics or stats class, or
gambled, the concept of "expected value" is familiar - probability of
earnings and losses times the winnings or losses.

What percentage of the voting population, would you estimate, have taken a
basic economics or stats class? Of those, what percentage didn't hate it
and want nothing to do with similar information in the future?

I hope this example helps you to understand the significance of these
figures. Range Voting makes you HUGELY more happy than plurality,
and pretty much every other voting method conceivable.

Your second sentence is a selling point. Your first is "wonky," and won't
work with voters.

If range voting is to be sold to the voters, it will have to be described
in *qualitative*, not *quantitative* terms.

Ask any Libertarian who is not himself an economist about explaining the
problem with minimum wage laws to an average voter. Even believing they
are harmful, and having had them explained to him by an economist, he will
still have difficultly communicating *why* and answering hard questions
from voters, because it is math-wonky and takes time and effort to
understand - time and effort most voters aren't willing to invest. And so
increases in minimum wage are always popular.

Selling a mathematically superior formula for capturing the will of the
voters to those voters will be similarly difficult. It took a massive
education campaign just to get the notion of "1-2-3" (ranked choice
voting) across to the voters, and it still confuses voters; ask anyone
who's volunteered as a poll worker.

Convincing them to adopt something even more complicated is a hard sell.
It is insufficient to be right.

~Chris

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher R. Maden"
<crism@...> wrote:

How many people, do you estimate, saw _An Inconvenient Truth_ who

didn't

already believe that manmade global warming is happening?

Probably well over half. That is, people like me who believed that
there was some credibility to it, but had seen little of that kind of
visceral graphical evidence, and walked out feeling a hundred times
more certain of its seriousness. I'm sure that not a lot of red
necks went and saw it, but think of all the red necks and I-don't-
cares (like my cowboy dad back in Kansas) were forced to see it by
their friends and family. I've made lots of people I know back in
Kansas go see it. My dad came away taking it very seriously, even
though he's usually more concerned with livestock, and hating black
people.

What percentage of the voting population, would you estimate, have

taken a

basic economics or stats class?

Pfft. 70% of students who've graduated high school?! We talked
about expected value in my 8th grade algebra class in a bad
neighborhood in Topeka Kansas for the love of god.

Of those, what percentage didn't hate it
and want nothing to do with similar information in the future?

Expected value is about the simplest most elementary concept that
people are introduced to in any prob and stats and/or economics
discussions, and it's something that most ANY gambler has to
understand, if he takes the sport seriously. Even if they don't know
the name for it, most moderately educated people know what it is; and
still vastly more would "get" it if the concept was explained to them
for 3-5 minutes. It's just your odds times the winnings - the amount
you can expect.

> I hope this example helps you to understand the significance of

these

> figures. Range Voting makes you HUGELY more happy than plurality,
> and pretty much every other voting method conceivable.

Your second sentence is a selling point. Your first is "wonky,"

and won't

work with voters.

Nope. These are statements of fact. http://RangeVoting.org/vsr.html

Read that until you understand why your response here shows a
complete lack of understanding of what I'm saying.

If range voting is to be sold to the voters, it will have to be

described

in *qualitative*, not *quantitative* terms.

Nope. You're dead wrong. An Inconvenient Truth - the most popular
persuasive film on any even marginally technical subject ever created
(that I'm aware of) shows you how it's done. Qualitative data is
profoundly necessary.

Gore's money and Hollywood's persuasive-documentary-creating genius
know far more than you or I do about making a good persuasive piece,
and they used hard numerical data. That pretty much decimates your
case. Of course, the film would have been impotent without emotive
oration. So of course both hard data and a keen sense of oration are
necessary. I don't claim that the numbers alone will do it. But
there are a great many crucial facts about Range Voting, and global
warming, that simply cannot be expressed except numerically. That is
reality, end of story.

Ask any Libertarian who is not himself an economist about

explaining the

problem with minimum wage laws to an average voter. Even believing

they

are harmful, and having had them explained to him by an economist,

hue will

ustill have difficultly communicating *why* and answering hard

questions

from voters, because it is math-wonky and takes time and effort to
understand - time and effort most voters aren't willing to invest.

And so

increases in minimum wage are always popular.

Look at how Milton Friedman did it in "Free to Choose". He used
economics speak, but made it emotional, and captivating, and
supplemented it with neat cartoons, and his friendly charming smile.
That's how you do it.

Selling a mathematically superior formula for capturing the will of

the

voters to those voters will be similarly difficult.

I never said it was easy, now did I?

It took a massive
education campaign just to get the notion of "1-2-3" (ranked choice
voting) across to the voters, and it still confuses voters; ask

anyone

who's volunteered as a poll worker.

And Range Voting is much simpler than IRV, and doesn't require
telling massive lies to prove its superiority.

Convincing them to adopt something even more complicated is a hard

sell.

It is insufficient to be right.

Range Voting is substantially more simple, not more complicated. I
don't know how many times I have to explain that.

See point 5, here: http://wrangevoting.org/rangeVirv.html

"Range voting is simpler than IRV. If you don't believe me, try
writing a computer program to do both. The range voting program will
be shorter. Range voting also is simpler in the sense that it
requires fewer operations to perform an election. In a V-voter, N-
candidate election, range voting takes roughly 2VN operations.
However, IRV voting takes roughly that many operations every 2
rounds. In a 135-candidate election like California Gubernatorial
2003, IRV would require about 67 times as many operations. (In fact,
range voting is simple enough that it could be done with hand
calculators, if necessary.)

Another aspect of that: every possible way to give the candidates
scores is a legal range vote. Not every possible way to give the
candidates rankings is a legal IRV vote – if you accidentally rank
two candidates equal, for example, IRV would consider that an illegal
vote and your ballot would be discarded. In, say, the 135-candidate
CA governor-recall election of 2003, the chances you would screw up
when trying to provide a full rank ordering of the 135 candidates,
would be immense. But it would be easy to produce a valid range
ballot. In other words, range voting is a lot less susceptible to
ballot spoilage than IRV.

Think I'm confused? Check the data on actual observed rates of ballot
spoilage errors."

So no more of this nonsense about Range Voting's complexity.

Clay

Are you talking about complexity for a person or a computer? Computer resources are extraordinarily cheap compared to human resources. Not to mention the fact that computational complexity isn't analogous to human complexity at all! Case in point: I work with a lot of natural language processing, attempting to program computers to understand certain semantics of human language text. It is immensely difficult to program a computer to do certain things that are very natural for a human being to understand. Minds just work differently than processors.

Jeremy

Are you talking about complexity for a person or a computer?

Number of operations, irrespective of whose doing them.

Computer
resources are extraordinarily cheap compared to human resources.

But the disparity in their respective cheapness varies depending on
which voting method is being used?

Not to
mention the fact that computational complexity isn't analogous to human
complexity at all!

It most certainly is, in mathematical terms. The number of steps, or
pieces of the process taken to tally the vote with Range Voting is
substantially less than with Range.

Case in point: I work with a lot of natural language
processing, attempting to program computers to understand certain
semantics of human language text. It is immensely difficult to

program a

computer to do certain things that are very natural for a human

being to

understand. Minds just work differently than processors.

That's an example of completely different algorithms. When it comes
to tallying the votes cast by IRV-ers or Rangers, the process is the
same either way. There's no "intuitive grasp" that a human has to
look at a bunch of ballots and instantly know the IRV winner or the
Range Winner. A human does the same steps a computer program would do.

Nice argument via apples and oranges, but it doesn't work I'm afraid.

In any case, Range Voting is demonstrably much simpler than IRV. Take
Hot-or-Not and Amazon.com for instance. Once you vote on more than a
handful of items, ordering them involves an exponentially increasing
number of comparisons, whereas rating them requires more or less a
linearly increasing amount of comparison/processing. No wonder we
don't see those sites using IRV. And even in some situations, for
just a few candidates let's say, where rating a few options is more
thought-intensive than simply ordering them, so what? In any
significant election, the satisfaction derived from getting a pleasing
result from the election MUST be far greater than the DISsatisfaction
caused by taking a few extra moments of thought to score the
candidates. Come ON, who would be so lazy as to say, "Fine, I'll just
take Bush instead of someone basically sane", just because he'd rather
order his preferences instead of rate them? I'm sure there are some,
but for most people who would even take the (economically unfruitful)
time to commute to the polls, getting the right winner is CERTAINLY
more important than saving a little time casting the ballot. Let's
get real here.

Clay:

I'm with you on the need for reform of voting methods, and I appreciate
your hammering on this. But I'm also skeptical about the persuasiveness
of mathematical demonstrations. I work as a statistician, and have much
more math training than the average person. So I don't doubt that, if I
spent the time, I could verify the superiority that you claim for range
voting. But it would take some time, even for me, because we're all
aware of how easily numbers can be manipulated. We confront a similar
issue in scientific debates more generally. I have, again, more science
training than average, and I also worked for several years at the UCSF
Center for AIDS Prevention Studies; but it would take an enormous amount
of time for me to reach a point of confidence in judging the debate over
the HIV theory of AIDS. Similarly for global warming. The "Swindle"
film was pretty convincing to me, but there were also serious
criticisms. In cases like this, I have to watch the debate for awhile
from a distance even to make a good guess about who's right. So I'm not
sure a lot of graphs, numbers, and razzle-dazzle will be very convincing
to most voters; and I share Chris's pessimism if we can't find a way to
communicate the message in simple terms with a minimum of mathematics.

I might add that I think you would be more persuasive yourself if you
could manage your hyperventilating. The issues are indeed very serious,
and we need to treat them that way. But I hear you appealing (below) to
"massive" scientific evidence, at the same (in a following message) that
you are denying that there is any complexity to the issue. And your
desperateness is leading you to demonize fellow libertarians who even
just want to take a minute to think about it. You've got a good cause;
it doesn't need that kind of help.

Mike

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Acree, Michael" <acreem@...>
wrote:

but it would take an enormous amount
of time for me to reach a point of confidence in judging the debate

over

the HIV theory of AIDS. Similarly for global warming.

These issue are _scientific_, and require the analysis of empirical
data. Utility efficiency calculations on voting methods, however,
are vastly better if done with simulations - in the realm of pure
math. This way we can collect millions of times more data than we
could with real world tests (and more reliably, since digital voters
can't lie to us - we can read their minds).

I might add that I think you would be more persuasive yourself if

you

could manage your hyperventilating.

Being cognizant of the gravity of this issue shouldn't be mistaken
for hysteria. If it is, you're missing the point.

The issues are indeed very serious,
and we need to treat them that way. But I hear you appealing

(below) to

"massive" scientific evidence, at the same (in a following message)

that

you are denying that there is any complexity to the issue.

I don't deny "any" complexity to the issue. I deny that _using_
Range Voting is complex. A huge problem I regularly have to deal
with is that people muddle two completely different concepts
together: the complexity of _explaining_ why Range Voting is
superior, and the complexity of USING/COUNTING with Range Voting.
Explaining why it is better can be complex, and the challenge is to
make it understandable to the lay person, in the same way that Gore
made CO2 cycles comprehensible to the layperson.

And your
desperateness is leading you to demonize fellow libertarians who

even

just want to take a minute to think about it. You've got a good

cause;

it doesn't need that kind of help.

Thoughts and questions are NOT equivalent to attempted rebuttals,
mainly forged of sheer ignorance. Read carefully, and look for the
distinction. I'm not demonizing any person. I'm demonizing
fallacious thought itself.