Proposition C opposition

Activists List
1

Since we've abruptly had our attention focused on this process...
anyone else want to go to the Elections Department with me and look
over the paid arguments submitted by other folks to see if we can find
anything we want to challenge ourselves? It might be interesting to be
able to compare both sides of the process. This is an aspect of the
world of ballot arguments that I'm unfamiliar with.

    <<< Starchild >>>

Mike asked what are the deadlines: Tuesday, September 6, at noon.
And we will know on Tuesday, September 6, before noon whether an
injunction was requested.

As I said, at this point all we know is that a voter has made a
challenge and that the DOE Director is reviewing the argument with
thoughts of sending it to the DA for a decision. Should an
injunction be requested by either the voter, the DA, or whoever, the
court will probably mandate that we either remove the challenged text
or provide evidence that the text is correct.

I am hoping the ExCom will be prepared to cast a deciding vote as to
which option to choose if we hear from the court on Tuesday morning.

BTW, Jawj is an attorney.

Marcy

This is excellent Phil. Much apprecieated. Obviously your

suggestion is

the tough political position and I endorse it. What are the

deadlines

again Marcy? I'll be happy to contact my political lawyer buddy

Peter

Bagatelos and check out the lay of the land on Tuesday. Peter

helped me

a lot a couple of years ago regarding getting my Chinese name on the
ballot. I like the idea of sticking to our position.

Mike Denny

________________________________

From: lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ricochetboy
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 10:33 PM
To: lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lpsf-activists] Re: Fw: Proposition C opposition

The proposition provides for a totally novel budget setting

procedure

for the ethics commision. The commision in conference with the ciity
comptroller sets a bbudget based on comparisons with other cities.

So

we will let the corruption levels in other cities decide our ethics
commisins budget. They get to decide appropriate comparisons. There

is

no mention of what items can be in the budget, so absent a
prohibition, it seems to me they can startpaying salaries or benies

or

who knows what kind of expenses at any time. Would someone with

better

vision than I please check the rest of the budget commision law to

see

if there is any prohobition on remuneration tothe commisioners or
emplayees budgeted by the commision. The Mayor an elected official,

if

prohibited from his normal roles in budget setting and review. And

so

Jawg is correct, the budget and therfore potentially the salry of

the

commisioners is set by the commision itself, with no veto power by

the

elected mayor or the comptroller. Only the Board of Sups can then
adjust the budget or approve it. Nevertheless the budget originates
from the ethics commision, not the elected executive. True, the
supervisors can raise or lower the budget presented by the

commision,

however the commision is very much in the position to intimidate the
board. The set up gives the commision tremendous intimidation power
over the mayor and is missing a normal and customary check on it's
potential power. Therefore the arguement is correct in it's

assertion

and does not make a factual error. The summary, the actual text and
Jawg's srguements are all in agreement. The board st's it's own
budget. Jawg never claims the budget is not subject to review by the
Supervisors.

And so the important question is will fighting this advance Liberty.
Which comes down to the question, will fighting this even appear on
the radar screen, if it does appear on the radar screen, will it
attract any support from San Franciscans or will it be a win for the
opponents, and will it cost us mor than we can win. What would
Machiavelli do.

So who can call some media types at the chronicle ,examiner, tv,

talk

radio, etc. and feel them out.

And is it OK and do we have time for me to call Pacific legal
foundation to see if we can get some support.

Mike Denny, what about your connected lawyer friend. What about the
What about the Republicans, who can call some republican allies.

I think if we show some backbone here we begin to be taken

seriously.

I so not think Jawg's facts are weong. The facts are there in the
summary for all to see. This ammendment certainly makes the ethics
commision the board of sups own personal playground. And now they

want

to stop even the paid dissent after reserving the unpaid dissent for
one of thier own.

I think we can do some damage here to the corrupt status quo, and I
think the atmosphere is ripe for it. This is politics babby,lets did
in and enjoy it. They fired the first round. I awy we give them no
quarter. Help with the above questions is greatly appreciated,
especially as the SOBs don't publish the charter on the internet,

but

hide it witha crony legal publisher.

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2

Starchild,

I believe it would be more profitable to use the time we have to
gather evidence to defend our own argument should the court ask us to
strike out text and should the ExCom decide to defend; as well as to
find out how best to present a defense. I am not working on this
myself, but I would guess Jawj might want some help.

There are other arguments opposing Prop C. As I recall: League of
Women Voters and SPUR. I should have asked whether these arguments
were challenged also, but I neglected to do so. Although, these
arguments were less hyperbolic than ours, and thus probably less
voulnerablet to challenge. Jawj made copies of them for anyone
interested.

I completely agree with you that we need to learn more about the
ballot argument process, so that we can participate even more in the
future.

Marcy

--- In lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com, Starchild <sfdreamer@e...>
wrote:

  Since we've abruptly had our attention focused on this

process...

anyone else want to go to the Elections Department with me and look
over the paid arguments submitted by other folks to see if we can

find

anything we want to challenge ourselves? It might be interesting to

be

able to compare both sides of the process. This is an aspect of the
world of ballot arguments that I'm unfamiliar with.

    <<< Starchild >>>

> Mike asked what are the deadlines: Tuesday, September 6, at noon.
> And we will know on Tuesday, September 6, before noon whether an
> injunction was requested.
>
> As I said, at this point all we know is that a voter has made a
> challenge and that the DOE Director is reviewing the argument with
> thoughts of sending it to the DA for a decision. Should an
> injunction be requested by either the voter, the DA, or whoever,

the

> court will probably mandate that we either remove the challenged

text

> or provide evidence that the text is correct.
>
> I am hoping the ExCom will be prepared to cast a deciding vote as

to

> which option to choose if we hear from the court on Tuesday

morning.

>
> BTW, Jawj is an attorney.
>
> Marcy
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Denny" <mike@d...>

wrote:

>> This is excellent Phil. Much apprecieated. Obviously your
> suggestion is
>> the tough political position and I endorse it. What are the
> deadlines
>> again Marcy? I'll be happy to contact my political lawyer buddy
> Peter
>> Bagatelos and check out the lay of the land on Tuesday. Peter
> helped me
>> a lot a couple of years ago regarding getting my Chinese name on

the

>> ballot. I like the idea of sticking to our position.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike Denny
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ricochetboy
>> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 10:33 PM
>> To: lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [lpsf-activists] Re: Fw: Proposition C opposition
>>
>>
>>
>> The proposition provides for a totally novel budget setting
> procedure
>> for the ethics commision. The commision in conference with the

ciity

>> comptroller sets a bbudget based on comparisons with other

cities.

> So
>> we will let the corruption levels in other cities decide our

ethics

>> commisins budget. They get to decide appropriate comparisons.

There

> is
>> no mention of what items can be in the budget, so absent a
>> prohibition, it seems to me they can startpaying salaries or

benies

> or
>> who knows what kind of expenses at any time. Would someone with
> better
>> vision than I please check the rest of the budget commision law

to

> see
>> if there is any prohobition on remuneration tothe commisioners or
>> emplayees budgeted by the commision. The Mayor an elected

official,

> if
>> prohibited from his normal roles in budget setting and review.

And

> so
>> Jawg is correct, the budget and therfore potentially the salry of
> the
>> commisioners is set by the commision itself, with no veto power

by

> the
>> elected mayor or the comptroller. Only the Board of Sups can then
>> adjust the budget or approve it. Nevertheless the budget

originates

>> from the ethics commision, not the elected executive. True, the
>> supervisors can raise or lower the budget presented by the
> commision,
>> however the commision is very much in the position to intimidate

the

>> board. The set up gives the commision tremendous intimidation

power

>> over the mayor and is missing a normal and customary check on

it's

>> potential power. Therefore the arguement is correct in it's
> assertion
>> and does not make a factual error. The summary, the actual text

and

>> Jawg's srguements are all in agreement. The board st's it's own
>> budget. Jawg never claims the budget is not subject to review by

the

>> Supervisors.
>>
>> And so the important question is will fighting this advance

Liberty.

>> Which comes down to the question, will fighting this even appear

on

>> the radar screen, if it does appear on the radar screen, will it
>> attract any support from San Franciscans or will it be a win for

the

>> opponents, and will it cost us mor than we can win. What would
>> Machiavelli do.
>>
>> So who can call some media types at the chronicle ,examiner, tv,
> talk
>> radio, etc. and feel them out.
>>
>> And is it OK and do we have time for me to call Pacific legal
>> foundation to see if we can get some support.
>>
>> Mike Denny, what about your connected lawyer friend. What about

the

>> What about the Republicans, who can call some republican allies.
>>
>> I think if we show some backbone here we begin to be taken
> seriously.
>> I so not think Jawg's facts are weong. The facts are there in the
>> summary for all to see. This ammendment certainly makes the

ethics

>> commision the board of sups own personal playground. And now they
> want
>> to stop even the paid dissent after reserving the unpaid dissent

for

>> one of thier own.
>>
>> I think we can do some damage here to the corrupt status quo,

and I

>> think the atmosphere is ripe for it. This is politics babby,lets

did

>> in and enjoy it. They fired the first round. I awy we give them

no

>> quarter. Help with the above questions is greatly appreciated,
>> especially as the SOBs don't publish the charter on the internet,
> but
>> hide it witha crony legal publisher.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> SPONSORED LINKS
>>
>> U s government grant
>> <Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos?
> t=ms&k=U+s+government+grant&w1=U+s+governm
>>
>

ent+grant&w2=California&w3=Activist&w4=U+s+government+student+loan&c=4

> &s
>> =89&.sig=jh3_6oO_TCYezSJ-HUfIXQ>
>>
>> California
>> <Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos?
> t=ms&k=California&w1=U+s+government+grant&
>>
>

w2=California&w3=Activist&w4=U+s+government+student+loan&c=4&s=89&.sig

> =d
>> Kyi4YSWEa3lhUoOwa-opg>
>>
>> Activist
>> <Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos?
> t=ms&k=Activist&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2
>>
>

=California&w3=Activist&w4=U+s+government+student+loan&c=4&s=89&.sig=i

> -m
>> Ni9yjvjT-1k5ABYD0rQ>
>>
>> U s government student loan
>> <Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos?
> t=ms&k=U+s+government+student+loan&w1=U+s+
>>
>

government+grant&w2=California&w3=Activist&w4=U+s+government+student+l

> oa
>> n&c=4&s=89&.sig=Zk-vCqeOH99qJeteqbX_cQ>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>>
>>
>>
>> * Visit your group "lpsf-activists
>> <Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos; " on the web.
>>
>> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>> <mailto:lpsf-activists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
> subject=Unsubscribe>
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>> Service <Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos; .
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

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