property rights & conflict resolution

Dear Steve,

You wrote:

So far the answers seem to involve the same sort of hand

waving and appeals to the goodness of human nature that the
socialists and communists use <<

Apparently, you're skeptical of the "goodness of human nature." In
that case, having a governmental structure in place is particularly
dangerous. It affords the Hitler's and Bushes of the world an existing
mechanism within which to wield their power and subjugate the
citizenry. The govt monopoly on military, courts, police, etc., would
already be in place to enforce their will.

In an anarcho-libertarian society, OTOH, these would exist as
competing agencies, making them more difficult to commandeer
by a power-hungry politician (redundant?).

Also see Mike Acree's 8/25/03 response to Starchild, which
cogently answers many q's about anarcho-libertarianism you've
been raising.

Best, Michael

it seems like an awful
gamble

> when contrasted to a system of limited government

contained by
checks

> and balances and charged with protecting life,

liberty, and
property

> which we know would tend to work fairly well as

long as it can be

> maintained.

Starchild,

Starchild,

This belief in a system of "limited government" seems
to me like an ideology. Just like socialism/communism
is an ideology, this idea of a 'limited government'
seems to me to also be an ideology. These are utopian
visions; they haven't worked in the past, so what
makes us think they will work in the future?

A few years after the signing of the Constitution and
Bill of Rights, Washington blew away the idea of
limited overnment and oppressive taxes with the
Whiskey Rebellion. I'm not a scholor of American
History, but what else comes to my mind shortly after
this is our involvement in the war of 1812, the
establishment of the US Coast Guard puttering around
up and down the coastline enforceing revenues,
tarrifs, etc, then Lincoln, with his whole big
government scam that exists today. In other words,
Starchild, I see that ever since the Founders passed
this idea of 'Limited Government,' Government has
become bigger and bigger! Hell, Bush has expanded
government even more than Clinton, and the Republicans
still claim that they are the party of limited
government!

Right now, I've come to believe that what communism
and 'limited government' have in common are that they
are both visions that sound good, yet, have never
worked, and wind up paving the way for the exact
opposite to happen from what it proposes. Even in your
e-mail, you write; "which we know would tend to work
fairly well as long as it can be maintained." This
tells me that you have hopes that 'some day' limited
government "would tend to work" "as long as it can be
maintained." Well, whose to maintain it? Why would
government be interested in maintaining itself,
anyway?

But, what do I know; I'm just another individual
trying to figure out my place amongst these ideologies
of communism, socialism, limited government, and
anarchy.

Dave Barker.

Dave,

I currently see limited(minimal) government as the lesser of many evils rather than a utopian vision.

As for it being an ideology, this is true of any idea shared by a group of people. Science and religion are examples of ideologies. What separates them is that the later is based on dogma, while the former considers itself to be a technique for discovering how the world works which is only as valid as it's results. I would hope that people would approach political system with the same pragmatic attitude of science. In the case of political systems, their value would be measured in their ability to promote human happiness.

Cheers,
Steve
"Were we directed from Washington when to sow,
and when to reap, we should soon want bread. "
- Thomas Jefferson

Dave,

  Of course you're right, advocacy of limited government is an ideology. Some people might even call this ideology "libertarianism," but I think our philosophy of non-aggression logically encompasses some types of anarchy as well as it does limited government.

  I'm not exactly sure what you wished to communicate in pointing out that this, too, is an ideology. Of course it's "utopian," in the sense that it's a long way from where we are now. Abolishing slavery was once considered equally utopian and contrary to human nature. Clearly limited government is not utopian in the sense of being impossible -- we know it is possible. It *may* be utopian to think that such a system can be made stable for long periods of time (though I personally think such stability is achievable). On the other hand, it may be equally utopian to believe in a long-enduring welfare state.

  In general terms, you could say there are sort of four basic options of how much government to have (with all shades of grey in between, of course):

(1) authoritarianism
(2) welfare state
(3) limited government
(4) anarchy

  Of course laying it out like this would appear to give some credence to anarchy as being the most pure, or farthest from authoritarianism. But we would be remiss not to expand this list to consider the other historical category of "no government" beside the rarely-achieved one that anarchist libertarians theorize about. Thus we have three basic categories of government and two basic categories of "no government":

(1) (govt.) authoritarianism
(2) (govt.) welfare state
(3) (govt.) limited government
(4) (no govt.) civilized anarchy (healthy free market competition, generally enforceable contracts, etc.)
(5) (no govt.) uncivilized anarchy (law of the jungle, might makes right, etc.)

  Now obviously a society would not always move sequentially backward or forward from one category to the next, but I'd guess it that sudden transitions from, say, anarchy to a welfare state, or limited government to authoritarianism are pretty rare. I can also envision this list as a circle that wraps around at the ends -- i.e. it's much easier to move from uncivilized anarchy back to authoritarianism or vice-versa than to move from either of these forms to limited government.

  Now it's also true, as you say, that limited government has rarely been achieved, but if anything this is even more true for libertarian-style anarchy.

  We know that in comparisons between societies with greater or lesser amounts of government, the evidence is very strong that less government works better. It's theoretically possible that no government could work even better, but except for medieval Iceland there seem to be no examples of a stable anarchy (i.e. one persisting over time in relatively ordinary conditions as opposed to unusual and unsustainable circumstance such as bands of pirates or the Wild West frontier) in history, and I'm not sure how much is really known about medieval Iceland (admittedly, I haven't read the literature).

  In short, we don't know whether it's easier to keep limited government from sliding into a welfare state, or to keep civilized anarchy from sliding into uncivilized anarchy. It does seem to me however that the distance between uncivilized anarchy and authoritarianism would tend to be much more quickly bridged than the distance between a welfare state and authoritarianism.

  Although we don't know this, we do know a lot more about how limited government has functioned, and about the processes by which limited governments have eroded into welfare statism, than we do about how civilized anarchy functions and how it may erode into uncivilized anarchy, I feel the much safer bet at this point is to try to construct a stable and enduring system of limited government than to try to construct a stable and enduring civilized anarchy.

  I am quite curious at this point to learn more about the Icelandic experience. Perhaps someone here can speak to how that anarchic society collapsed, and what followed it?

Yours in liberty,
                <<< Starchild >>>

Oops again — I botched the second-to-last paragraph of my long philosophical ramble about government systems pretty badly. Here's a cleaned-up version:

Although we don't know which system (anarchy or limited government) is more stable, we *do* know a lot more about how limited government works than we do about how civilized anarchy works. We also know a lot more about the processes by which limited governments have eroded into welfare states than we do about the processes by which anarchy may erode into uncivilized anarchy. With this existing knowledge base, I believe our chances are better of creating a stable and enduring system of limited government than of creating a stable and enduring civilized anarchy.