Prop. 75

In a message dated 10/5/2005 2:52:49 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
sfdreamer@... writes:

> -Proposition 75 would require public employee unions to get annual
> written permission from members to use dues for campaign
contributions.

There is a big difference between corporations needing shareholder approval
for lobbying, and union members giving permission for political contributions
with which they do not agree.

A shareholder can easily sell his shares and buy into another investment if
he does not agree with the way the company does business;
        but
a union member is forced into membership of the union, just to have a job in
that company or government entity, forced to pay dues, forced to pay "special
assessments", forced to join the (corrupt) pension and health plans mandated
by the union bosses etc.

Unions are typically monopolies. Employers cannot hire anyone who does not
join the union. Unions go on strike to enforce their monopoly powers, punishing
other employees, customers and shareholders, even driving companies and
whole industries into bankruptcy. They extract a tax on all consumers by their
monopoly power.

Unions have a history of using physical force and violence to get their way.
Unions are coercive in their very nature. There is nothing libertarian about
unions.

High and rigid labor cost structures have been the reason for the decline of
US manufacturing competitiveness and jobs.

The libertarian approach would be that all workers would only voluntarily
pay union dues, dues for political campaigns, or for that matter, even
voluntarily be a union member.

VOTE YES ON PROP 75.

Sarosh D. Kumana
_www.sfrent.net_ (http://www.sfrent.net/)
Tel: 415-861-4554
Fax: 415-864-0730
Cell: 415-425-5184

Sarosh, views like yours are the reason I left the Libertarian Party.
I don't want to start a long flame war or be antagonistic, but people
here who are interested in knowing why the Libertarian Party will
never get much support may want to hear my views. People are
increasing unhappy with corporate power and the Libertarian Party
seems to consistently back corporations. The irony is that this is
actually inconsistent with liberty. I will explain.

Corporations are creations of the state. This is unlike business
partnerships which are created by people and then later recognized by
the state. Corporations must be created by the state because a
corporation is a government franchise created to grant limited
liability to its owners. As special artificial creations of the
state, corporations have no place in a truly free market.

On the other hand, unions are truly a creation of the free market.
The so called "monopoly" power that Sarosh refers to is actually the
result of union contracts freely signed by all parties. Modern unions
gained power with the Norris-LaGuardia act that limited government's
power to interfere with unions. It was liberty that allowed unions to
gain power. Unfortunately, corporate pressure caused the government
to regulate unions with the Taft-Hartley Act. I certainly do not want
to defend modern unions, which are quite abysmal. But I blame
government regulation for this. If the Libertarian Party was really
committed to liberty, instead of corporate power, it would support
deregulation of labor unions, and the repeal of Taft-Hartley.

I am currently registered as a Democrat, but I hardly fit. I want
smaller government and more freedom. I wish there was a place for me
in the Libertarian Party, but it seems overwhelming dominated by
people who value corporations over liberty.

[ Attachment content not displayed ]

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Derek Jensen <derekj72@g...>
wrote:

Am I missing a bunch of emails? I never saw the post from Sarosh to

which

Franklin, I am curious.
Would you object to firms
that were self organized but
had no liability protection.

with California law, my
corporation provided me
with absolutely no liability
protection. I was an
industrial hygienist. My
company provided
environmental consulting
and evaluation services,
mostly to commercial real
estate interests, hospitals,
and local Universities. Most
of it's business revolved
around asbestos related
hazards in construction. In
1994 I got full blown aids,
and by 96 some of my
clients were getting
uncomfortable with the
degree of my personal
involvement in my
business. Therefore I hired
another Industrial Hygienist.
She was consistently late
for everything and generally
unresponsive and
unprofessional. In
November of 96 I decided
to look for a replacement
and found one in April of
97. I had employment at
will written in bold over
every employment
document. I let her on go
on a friday afternoon with a
generous check. As she
was walking out the door,
she asked for a hug, I gave
her a loose polite one, at
which time she wispered in
my ear.." thankyou".

The Sheriff arrived at my
door a month later with the
notice that she was sueing
for an unlimited amount to
be determined and was
accusing me personally
and my corporation for
business fraud in violation
of the public policy and the
wistle blowers statute.
Alledgely I had fired her in
furtherance of a conspiracy
to conceal cancer and
reproductive hazards
during the renovation of the
Orpheum theater which
was being conducted by
the construction am of the
Shorenstein company.
Shorenstein had all his
assets wrapped in LLCs
hidden in trusts and
repackaged in living trusts.
They paid anyway. I paid
her nothing in the
settlement, but lost my
biggest customer, sold the
business to my remaining
employees and retired. As
relates to environmental
and health,the corporation
offers absolutely no
protection. All the
complaining attorney had to
do is throw in a public
policy, or fraud charge.
Liability insurance also is
worhless when the alledged
acts are intentional.

So forgive me if I suspect
that the general left hatred
of corporations is centerd
on the liability issue.

There is a formal economic
literature on the economics
of the firm, and the
economics of the law. As
an economic entity the firm
is a voluntary assemblage
that concentrates expertise
on the production of goods
and services. This
voluntary means of
organizing people's efforts
has been the creater of
much good, and in most
cases suceeds where other
human social
organizations, especially
those based on violance
have not.

Well function firms can
produce value for
customers and reward
employees and owners of
the firm handsomly. In a
democracy infused with a
socialist idealogy,
thesucess of a firm and the
individual in it will be a
target for confiscation. The
firm, and the individuals in
it may find it in thier interest
to prevent confiscation.
Thus the firmseeks political
influence to prevent or limit
the extent of government
predation of it's assets.
Many firms once
established politically can
not resist using the power
nefariously. The
government on all levels
has grown large primarily
on the idealogical
foundation of socialism.
Growing along with the
government are the
corporations seeking
influence for either
protection or profit off the
public trough. The indecent
nexus of government and
corporations is what I
suspect the left really
objects to. The left dreams
that if somehow
corporations could gotten
rid of, the government
would finally pure and kind
and could provide for us all
education health a clean
environemtn and good
educational radio
programming. Libertarians
understand that firms are a
natural and absolutely
necassary human
economic institution if we
want to eat, sleep, and live
in any civilized manner in
this city, in this country, on
this planet. If corporations
cannot go, then the logical
way to reduce the ugly
nexus of corporate and
government power is to
reduce the size of
government. Here is
hoping you may reconsider
and rejoin us in our efforts
to bring our country back to
it's roots in liberty.

Hi Sarosh,

  How's it going? Haven't seen you post in a while.

  I completely support Proposition 75, and my sentence about Prop. 75 quoted below was not meant to indicate otherwise.

  I do think you overstate the case against unions -- after all, corporations also have a history of using violence that parallels the history of union violence. Violent strikes and violent strikebreakers tended to go together. However, I agree with you that the case is stronger against unions spending dues money on political lobbying without members consent than against corporations spending shareholder money without consent for the same purpose, in part for the other reasons you mention.

  Nevertheless, I would also support requiring corporations to get shareholder consent before making political contributions. There is already a precedent and a mechanism for shareholders voting on certain aspects of corporate policy. Why not simply include political giving on these ballots? This doesn't solve what in my view is perhaps the biggest problem in corporate governance -- that the proxy votes of shareholders who do not vote in corporate elections automatically go to management. That's like the votes of eligible voters who don't participate in an election automatically going to the incumbents! This practice, along with the exorbitant salaries and perks given to upper management, and annual reports that are full of fluff and don't say things in plain English, is one of the signposts indicating that most corporations have been "captured" by their management and are no longer really working in the best interests of shareholders. The situation resembles the way the U.S. government has been captured by professional politicians and bureaucrats at the expense of the public, although the latter problem is of course far worse. The reality which libertarians should keep in mind is that having other people give their money to most politicians is not in the long-term interests of shareholders as a class any more than it is in the interests of union members as a class, and we should seek legal structures in which the real interests are more accurately represented.

  There is also an element of practical politics here. Corporations overwhelmingly give money to Republicans and Democrats -- not Libertarians. Why should we stand up for them, when they don't support us and support our enemies? Because individual donations make up a greater portion of Libertarian giving than is true for the establishment parties, I suspect that forcing giving away from institutions and toward individuals would result in Libertarians capturing a greater share of political donations than we do now. I also suspect that average shareholders tend to be fiscally conservative (as opposed to management being mostly just pragmatic), a greater percentage of any corporate giving that won approval under a consent requirement would tend to go to fiscally conservative causes.

  Hopefully the passage of Proposition 75 will spur greater support for a shareholder consent measure. I'd like to see a system where corporations sent special dividend checks along with pleas for the money to be donated to whatever political cause the management claims is in the interest of shareholders, and then let the shareholders have the final word on whether to donate that money as requested or simply use it themselves.

Yours in liberty,
        <<< Starchild >>>

In a message dated 10/5/2005 2:52:49 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, sfdreamer@... writes:

> > -Proposition 75 would require public employee unions to get annual
> > written permission from members to use dues for campaign
> contributions.

There is a big difference between corporations needing shareholder approval for lobbying, and union members giving permission for political contributions with which they do not agree.

A shareholder can easily sell his shares and buy into another investment if he does not agree with the way the company does > business;
but
a union member is forced into membership of the union, just to have a job in that company or government entity, forced to pay dues, forced to pay "special assessments", forced to join the (corrupt) pension and health plans mandated by the union bosses etc.

Unions are typically monopolies. Employers cannot hire anyone who does not join the union. Unions go on strike to enforce their monopoly powers, punishing other employees, customers and shareholders, even driving companies and whole industries into bankruptcy. They extract a tax on all consumers by their monopoly power.

Unions have a history of using physical force and violence to get their way. Unions are coercive in their very nature. There is nothing libertarian about unions.

High and rigid labor cost structures have been the reason for the decline of US manufacturing competitiveness and jobs.

The libertarian approach would be that all workers would only voluntarily pay union dues, dues for political campaigns, or for that matter, even voluntarily be a union member.

VOTE YES ON PROP 75.

Sarosh D. Kumana
www.sfrent.net
Tel: 415-861-4554
Fax: 415-864-0730
Cell: 415-425-5184

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Franklin, I am curious.
Would you object to firms
that were self organized but
had no liability protection.

Not at all.

From my own experience
with California law, my
corporation provided me
with absolutely no liability
protection.

Our legal system has a problem in that even if one wins a case, one
can be bankrupted by the costs. I'm not sure what the right solution
is, but maybe the prosecution should be forced to pay the defense's
costs when the prosecution loses. Would this have helped in your
case? Limiting liability is not the right answer because someone who
is really guilty of doing things like concealing cancer and
reproductive hazards during the renovation of a building ought to be
punished.

In a
democracy infused with a
socialist idealogy,
the success of a firm and the
individual in it will be a
target for confiscation. The
firm, and the individuals in
it may find it in thier interest
to prevent confiscation.
Thus the firm seeks political
influence to prevent or limit
the extent of government
predation of it's assets.

Very well said. But what causes the people in a democracy to seek
greater government power to regulate business? It is that people see
a great imbalance in power favoring business over themselves. To
avoid socialist solutions to this problem, one must offer
alternatives. The free market solution to consumer protection is
unlimited liability. And the free market solution to workers' rights
is unions and worker-run businesses.

"The free market solution to
consumer protection is
unlimited liability."
Corporate liability is virtually
unlimited as in my experience, or
for that matter McDonalds when
they heat up the coffee. The
greatest protector of the
consumer is the value invested
in the corporate brand. Fimrms
work very hard to keep the
brand burnished. Look what
happened to Firestone on
trumped up charges about a few
tires out hundreds of millions
produced. Killed the company.
Or Wendy's and the finger. The
brand was tarnished for weeks.
The value in the brand keeps
almost all we consum safe and
wholesome. Sometimes we
entruat the retailer in lieu of the
brand, like kirkland or Trader
Joes. There is wellspring of
consumer protection.

So how about facing the
possibility that liability is not
really the the reason there is a
widespread anti corporation
sentiment among self identified
liberals.
Politics and religion both share
a vision of a better world.
Believers in socialism or liberty
both have strong convictions
that may be held religiously. To
extend the religious analogy to
this discussion, is it possible that
presumptions of corporate evil
have a religious component? In
this analogy , Corporations are
the Force Of Sata. Abolishing
liability limitation is like holding a
cross of silver before Satan thus
killing the Beast and bringing
Salvation.

So again I ask, would a
voluntary group of individuals
working together to make a
product such as oil or cars or
food be ok???

Do you think that stockholders
should have liability. Ok, we
make stockholders liable. That
hobbles the stock market, but
we still need to eat, etc, so more
voluntary organizations will end
up being privately held with
capital only coming internally or
from the banks. Make the banks
liable, now I am all for that.

As a related matter, governmet
regulation is invited by large
corporations to avoid liability.
That is why Nixon signed the
OSHA act. I could go on for
pages about how voluntary
regulation with reasonably
applied tort law has worked
better in the post world war II
period and continues to protect
workers in many areas where
OSHA fails, but thats a whole
other thread.

"And the free market solution to
workers' rights
is unions and worker-run
businesses."

Again, no problem with Unions
so long as no coercion is
involved, and people not
signature ot prior contract who
wish to cross picket lines are
permitted to do so without
physical interference or credible
threat. Nothing wrong with
worker run companies from a
moral or political basis. On a
practical level, they unfortunately
usually don't work out well for
the workers, but sometimes they
do.

Public unions are a difficult
matter because the employer's
funds are derived from coercion.
The public unions benefit from
that coercion and when they are
permitted to participate in the
political process, can influence
the degree to which resources
are coercively extracted from the
public and distributed to the
government workers. As a
matter of nearly undisputed fact,
public unions have worked hard
to increase the size of
government and thus increased
the extraction by force of
resources from the public in the
form of taxes, or when federally
funded, inflation. The taxes and
inflation fall on the lives, hopes,
and dreams of everyone not
working for the government, The
burdens fall especially hard on
the poor, the elderly and the
disabled, especially those trying
to live an above subsistence life.

Not as a libertarian, but as
consumer of City services, the
union rules that absolve
accountability make riding MUNI
often frustrating, especially on
the days before or after a
holiday. Also the deplorable
condition of Delores park may in
part be due to difficulty in
holding City employees
accountable for job
performance.
And so when I stand out in the
wind and rain waiting for the 38
that never comes on January 2,
I quietly in my inner soul thank
the transit union for the
opportunity to commune with
Nature in all her glory.

So once again, are private
organizations that gather to
produce goods and services a
bad thing.

Corporate liability is virtually
unlimited as in my experience, or
for that matter McDonalds when
they heat up the coffee.

Conservatives quote the cases of excessive liability and liberals
quote the cases when corporations get away with murder. Of course
examples of both exist. I won't bother giving examples of things
corporations get away with. Just ask your local friendly liberal.

So how about facing the
possibility that liability is not
really the the reason there is a
widespread anti corporation
sentiment among self identified
liberals.

The reason most people feel things is emotional, not analytical. Most
people can see that corporations have too much power, but they don't
know what to do about it. I am suggesting a free market solution to
this issue.

So again I ask, would a
voluntary group of individuals
working together to make a
product such as oil or cars or
food be ok???

And I answer again, sure.

Do you think that stockholders
should have liability. Ok, we
make stockholders liable. That
hobbles the stock market

I am not sure who should be liable, but limited partnerships offer an
example of how people can invest without being liable. It is the
people in control who should be liable, not the people who provide
capital. So unlimited liability would encourage investors to be
"silent" and would therefor decentralize corporate power.

As a related matter, governmet
regulation is invited by large
corporations to avoid liability.
That is why Nixon signed the
OSHA act. I could go on for
pages about how voluntary
regulation with reasonably
applied tort law has worked
better in the post world war II
period and continues to protect
workers in many areas where
OSHA fails, but thats a whole
other thread.

I agree.

Again, no problem with Unions
so long as no coercion is
involved, and people not
signature ot prior contract who
wish to cross picket lines are
permitted to do so without
physical interference or credible
threat.

I agree.

Public unions are a difficult
matter because the employer's
funds are derived from coercion.
The public unions benefit from
that coercion and when they are
permitted to participate in the
political process, can influence
the degree to which resources
are coercively extracted from the
public and distributed to the
government workers. As a
matter of nearly undisputed fact,
public unions have worked hard
to increase the size of
government and thus increased
the extraction by force of
resources from the public in the
form of taxes, or when federally
funded, inflation.

Okay, but doesn't exactly the same argument apply to corporations with
government contracts? All I am saying is "be fair" and don't restrict
unions if you don't apply the same restrictions to corporations.

Not as a libertarian, but as
consumer of City services, the
union rules that absolve
accountability make riding MUNI
often frustrating, especially on
the days before or after a
holiday. Also the deplorable
condition of Delores park may in
part be due to difficulty in
holding City employees
accountable for job
performance.

All services are in decline in this country, whether public or
private. Large corporations hardly do a good job with customer
service these days. Just deal with any insurance company.
Bureaucracy is a general problem, and the solution is deregulation to
encourage more small businesses.