John Burton's War on Foie Gras

Because California doesn't have enough other pressing problems, I was so
glad to see that State Senator Burton is taking precious time and the
hard-earned money of taxpayers to fight the scourge of... duck livers.

I just saw the story on Channel 2 News. I never watch local news, but I saw
the preview of the story earlier tonight and just had to watch. I literally
couldn't believe it was true.

Here's the website of his primary target:

http://www.sonomafoiegras.com/

It actually outdid France's ban on religious clothing today on my Orwell
meter.

Funny part is that he's not just trying to ban "speed feeding" but rather
the sale of any and all foie gras, even when grown naturally.

These people must be stopped.

Rob,

  Torture should not be condoned simply because humans are not the victims! What about a compromise whereby only force-feeding would be banned, while allowing foie gras not produced via such inhumane methods to continue to be sold? Perhaps Burton is even aiming for something of this nature by proposing a more broad-sweeping measure which will likely face modification; he is an experienced politician. I admit it is nice to hear he is devoting that expertise to what I see as a good cause for a change, as when he fought to limit the use of civil asset forfeiture.

For the ducks,
            <<< Starchild >>>

I agree. I suspect that anyone that doesn't believe "managed" feeding to be cruel would change their mind after trying it on themselves.

-- Steve

Boys, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess you've both spent
your entire lives in cities or suburbs.

As someone who spent his first ten years on his grandma's farm, let
me just say that, if you think using a machine to feed birds in a way
that mimics the way baby birds are fed by their own mothers is cruel,
you really wouldn't like farm life very much. I'm guessing it would
be like Paris Hilton on that reality show... "Ew! Gross!" (pig
squealing in the background)

Seriously. Think about it. Do you _really_ consider passing a law
to ban a farming practice, much less an entire food product
regardless of farming practice, to be good libertarian government?
Put your emotions aside, your personal morality aside, and even your
own taste in food aside, and just put on your Libertarian hat. Do
you honestly support Burton's law? For real?

Not a rhetorical question. I'm frankly concerned that I got this
response and need to hear an answer.

Rob

- -----Original Message-----

Neither Starchild or I said we supported Burton's law in it's current form. To be clear, I am opposed to this farming practice but don't have a problem with the food product. So I would support Starchild's suggestion which prohibits the former without effecting the later.

-- Steve

Rob,

  It's true I've always lived in the urban or suburban Bay Area except for traveling and a few very short stints elsewhere. I think it's often easier for outsiders to see ethically troubling practices with a critical eye than it is for those who grew up accustomed to seeing them as normal. I think you're right -- most people who did not grow up around farming *would* be extremely grossed out by what occurs on a modern American farm. I think these people are seeing the picture more clearly than those who have become inured to the suffering by dint of long exposure.

  I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you refer to my "personal morality." Many people believe in seeking to end cruelty to animals. It's not a belief I came up with on my own, any more than I invented libertarianism. Suggesting that my belief in legal consideration for animals as conscious beings is a "personal morality" that I should put aside, along with my emotional reaction to animal suffering, is like someone telling me my libertarianism is a "personal morality" that I should put aside along with my emotional reaction to seeing people needlessly suffer and die because of government aggression.

  I think I've said before on this list that if it were feasible, I would like to see meat-eating outlawed altogether. Of course this will not be feasible any time soon. But I think that with someone like Burton backing it, a ban on foie gras might just be within the realm of the politically possible. To you it's evidently one more senseless government regulation that impedes freedom and economic productivity, but to me, a law against foie gras would be in the same category as laws against murder and torture, that most libertarians agree with.

  As implied by my previous message, I consider ending the legal torture of ducks important enough that I would be willing to compromise by giving up the present attempt to ban any killing done for the purpose of creating foie gras if this would help achieve the narrower end of removing legal sanction for force-feeding practices.

Yours in liberty,
            <<< Starchild >>>

P.S. - Someone recently referred me to an excellent parody of "The Matrix" film on a site called "The Meatrix" (http://www.TheMeatrix.com). While this flash animation unfortunately blames factory farming practices on "corporate agriculture" and ignores the role of government in allowing and even subsidizing such atrocities, it is quite darkly amusing if you have seen "The Matrix," and offers a concise indictment of meat and dairy industry practices. It's also very well produced, and might provide some good ideas for any libertarian wishing to design pro-liberty flash cartoons.

I'm sorry, but I have to draw a line somewhere. Today, it's ascribing
"human" rights to birds with brains the size of acorns. Tomorrow, it's
banning development to spare trees the "torture" of being cut down. The
rights of life, liberty, and property belong to human beings (and let's say
other beings of similar intelligence, leaving the door open for ET or
whatever, which is why I put quotes around "human" rights). But not ducks.

As for the morality thing, I've been reading on another list about how
moralistic Ayn Rand was, and how that was such a stumbling block for her
otherwise towering logic. To her, gays were disgusting and immoral. To
her, even certain types of architecture she found unpleasant were immoral.
Morality causes even the greatest otherwise libertarian minds to make the
wrong decision regarding what is the appropriate use of government force.

You see, ascribing the rights of life, liberty, and property to another
being of approximately equal intellect is rational, not emotional or moral.
If I steal your food, you may just be smart enough to kick my ass for it.
So, even setting the immorality of stealing aside, it's best for us to have
mutual respect for each other's property rights. If, however, I steal a
duck's food, that's another matter. If I start enslaving blacks or
murdering Jews or oppressing whatever group, it's quite likely that I'll
wind up dead myself by one of their hands, regardless of whether society as
a whole thinks my actions regarding that group are immoral. So it makes
sense to respect each other's right to life and liberty. But what's a duck
going to do to me? I know many libertarians look upon this "social
contract" that's implied between all rational beings as flawed, but it seems
to me to be a much better and fairer construct for "human" rights than
anyone's moral code.

BTW, this isn't even a matter of size or strength -- human intellect can
safely overcome the fiercest jungle cat or the biggest elephant or whale.
The complexity of the brain (and arguably the potential complexity of the
brain, depending on whether you're pro-life or pro-choice) absolutely _MUST_
be the deciding factor when judging who has basic "human" rights in a
rational society. Morality, no matter how widespread, _IS_ subjective and
cannot be the basis for governance.

It's wonderful that your own sense of morality makes you outraged when
people are tortured, and it's fine when that sense of morality extends to
"torture" of less intelligent animals. I'm just asking you to put that
morality aside when deciding what laws to force on the rest of us in
society. Because, as you know, all laws are enforced at the point of a gun,
so if you try to infringe on my life, liberty, or property in the name of
your vegan morality, expect me and all the other meat-eaters to have equal
respect for your life, liberty or property in return.

And until the day that the ducks are intelligent enough to even consider
"rising up" and coming after me for eating them, I refuse to acknowledge
that they have the same rights as human beings. Call me immoral all you
want -- I was an out and proud gay man in rural Tennessee, so I'm used to
it -- but keep your moral laws to yourself.

Rob

Rob made two arguments:

1. Animal cruelty laws are a slippery slope to plant cruelty laws.

Slippery slope arguments can be made about anything and as such require much more than a simple claim that one will lead to the other. For example, the principle argument of the anti-gay marriage crowd is that this will lead to marriage of minors, etc.

2. Animal cruelty is ok because they are not strong or smart enough to pose a threat.

I don't think I need to explain the problems with "might makes right", but if you're looking for slippery slopes, that's a mighty steep one...

-- Steve

Rob,

  I appreciate your thoughtful response, and I think you make some points that deserve to be addressed. I'm glad that your conception of rights leaves the door open to the possibility of intelligent extra-terrestrials, and does not accord rights only to human beings simply because they are human.

   Perhaps a tree does experience some form of distress at being cut down -- I think there is some evidence for this. But I acknowledge that our current level of development forces us to draw the line somewhere. Perhaps tomorrow -- a distant tomorrow -- we will all be sufficiently well provided for that it will be possible to care for each tree, each plant, each micro-organism. A universe in which every living being can be empowered to exist under conditions that allow it to reach its full potential, and enjoy life without externally-imposed suffering, is a worthwhile goal for the human race.

  However this is obviously much more impractical at present than even a ban on meat. Again, I acknowledge that we must draw the line somewhere. It makes most sense to me to draw the line between plants and animals. In biological terms, this is where the largest division of life lies. Humans are much more like cows then either species are like trees. Non-human animals feel pain, as we do. Just because they are not intelligent compared to humans does not necessarily mean that pain is more bearable for them. Though I think more advanced species of animals are generally more hardwired to experience pain. I believe in a hierarchy of life: To kill a human is worse than to kill a cow is worse than to kill a fish, is worse than to kill a grasshopper, is worse than to kill a tree, is worse than to kill a sprout. In other words, a system of rights -- or legal protection, if you will -- based on a being's capacity for suffering. This is Peter Singer's thesis in his influential book "Animal Liberation," and it makes more sense to me than any other solution I've come across.

  I don't think one can solve the problem of where to draw the line simply by saying it's rational to ascribe rights of life, liberty, and property to beings of approximately equal intellect because they might fight back. As Steve pointed out, this is "might makes right" -- ultimately, a lack of any morality. Under such a code, anyone who has the ability to murder you and get away with it has a perfect right to do so.

  And where does this approach leave severely retarded human beings? If you say that their rights must be respected simply because torturing and killing them would piss off too many other people who would fight back on their behalf -- well, I submit to you that this is rapidly becoming the case with various categories of non-human animals as well. I assume you've heard of the Animal Liberation Front. So far they have limited themselves to things like arson and break-ins, explicitly refrained from killing people in defense of animals. But I predict that if human progress, freedom, and wealth continue on an upward curve, the animal rights movement will only grow larger, stronger, and more vehement. At some point, some people will be willing to fight back on behalf of animals using all the means normally used by groups of humans engaged in armed struggle against each other. I'm not making a moral judgment about this course of action, simply stating that I believe it will happen. A purely rational approach might want to take this likely consequence into consideration and weigh it against the importance of maintaining a right to abuse non-human animals at will.

Yours in liberty,
              <<< Starchild >>>

To all:
I have thus far refrained from participation, because this is obviously an incendiary subject. However, I can be silent no longer. I cannot agree that intelligence levels, and ability (or lack thereof) to exact retribution should be the criteria on which a decision(s) of whether or not being cruel is based. This specious argument can be used in many situations, one example being the slavery trade and subsequent ill-treatment of Africans and their descendants. The prevailing thought of the times was that Africans were mentally inferior, and as they were under extreme subjugation, could extract little or no retribution. And if they were able to do so, they were summarily exterminated, so they were of little or no threat. Every being on this planet deserves to right to life without un-necessary cruelty. Humans have no right to make such decisions as to who or what life forms can be treated badly without penalty. The suggestion that the ability to reason on a human' s level, and "fight
back," as the deciding factor, sounds extremely callous.
Whether or not the government should legislate these types of activities, is not clear to me. However, if we are as many have claimed, "superior" to other life forms, (a position that I feel based on my many years of study of human behaviour through-out the centuries, is on shaky ground at best,) we should strive to value each life for its own sake, and avoid un-necessary suffering whenever possible. This is one of the denotations of a "superior" being. Cruelty to anyone or anything saddens me greatly, and reflects no credit upon the perpetrator.

Leilani
Postscript: I am an avid supporter of The Animal Liberation Front, and hope that they continue to refrain from any sort of cruelties towards humans, as I do not believe that cruelty to stop cruelty is sound.

Starchild <sfdreamer@...> wrote:
Rob,

      I appreciate your thoughtful response, and I think you make some
points that deserve to be addressed. I'm glad that your conception of
rights leaves the door open to the possibility of intelligent
extra-terrestrials, and does not accord rights only to human beings
simply because they are human.

      Perhaps a tree does experience some form of distress at being cut
down -- I think there is some evidence for this. But I acknowledge that
our current level of development forces us to draw the line somewhere.
Perhaps tomorrow -- a distant tomorrow -- we will all be sufficiently
well provided for that it will be possible to care for each tree, each
plant, each micro-organism. A universe in which every living being can
be empowered to exist under conditions that allow it to reach its full
potential, and enjoy life without externally-imposed suffering, is a
worthwhile goal for the human race.

      However this is obviously much more impractical at present than even a
ban on meat. Again, I acknowledge that we must draw the line somewhere.
It makes most sense to me to draw the line between plants and animals.
In biological terms, this is where the largest division of life lies.
Humans are much more like cows then either species are like trees.
Non-human animals feel pain, as we do. Just because they are not
intelligent compared to humans does not necessarily mean that pain is
more bearable for them. Though I think more advanced species of animals
are generally more hardwired to experience pain. I believe in a
hierarchy of life: To kill a human is worse than to kill a cow is worse
than to kill a fish, is worse than to kill a grasshopper, is worse than
to kill a tree, is worse than to kill a sprout. In other words, a
system of rights -- or legal protection, if you will -- based on a
being's capacity for suffering. This is Peter Singer's thesis in his
influential book "Animal Liberation," and it makes more sense to me
than any other solution I've come across.

      I don't think one can solve the problem of where to draw the line
simply by saying it's rational to ascribe rights of life, liberty, and
property to beings of approximately equal intellect because they might
fight back. As Steve pointed out, this is "might makes right" --
ultimately, a lack of any morality. Under such a code, anyone who has
the ability to murder you and get away with it has a perfect right to
do so.

      And where does this approach leave severely retarded human beings? If
you say that their rights must be respected simply because torturing
and killing them would piss off too many other people who would fight
back on their behalf -- well, I submit to you that this is rapidly
becoming the case with various categories of non-human animals as well.
I assume you've heard of the Animal Liberation Front. So far they have
limited themselves to things like arson and break-ins, explicitly
refrained from killing people in defense of animals. But I predict that
if human progress, freedom, and wealth continue on an upward curve, the
animal rights movement will only grow larger, stronger, and more
vehement. At some point, some people will be willing to fight back on
behalf of animals using all the means normally used by groups of humans
engaged in armed struggle against each other. I'm not making a moral
judgment about this course of action, simply stating that I believe it
will happen. A purely rational approach might want to take this likely
consequence into consideration and weigh it against the importance of
maintaining a right to abuse non-human animals at will.

Yours in liberty,
                                          <<< Starchild >>>

I'm shocked that anyone would compare Africans and ducks regarding
intelligence and status as a rational being. Slavery was a case of
_perceived_ lack of intelligence, but that perception was clearly wrong and
based on "junk science". Do you really think it's just our mistaken
perception that ducks aren't as rational and intelligent as us? Honestly?

I'm really floored by this discussion. I had absolutely no idea that we had
this kind of division amongst Libertarians regarding what is and isn't the
appropriate place for the use of government force.

Well, let's just put it this way -- if Animal Liberation Front decides to
inflict force on me for the "crime" of eating meat, they'd better be wearing
Kevlar...

Rob

Dear Rob:
You obviously mis-understood my point. No where in my discourse did I compare Africans to ducks in regards to intelligence, etcetera. My point was simply that the perception at the time, was that Africans were mentally inferior, in fact were considered by many as "animals," which was used as justification for sub-standard treatment. The fact that these ideas were later discarded, (at least in theory that is,) does not nullify the fact that this was accepted at this time in history. Subsequently, you are saying that because ducks are less intelligent than humans, it is okay to abuse them. I am well aware of where ducks rank intellectually, but that in no way sanctions abuse to them or any life form. I, quite frankly, am stunned that humans feel that abuse is okay,as long as the victim is less intelligent, and un-able to either resist or extract retribution. There is something sadly amiss with the human species, if we operate from this premise.
Leilani
Rob Power <robpower@...> wrote:
I'm shocked that anyone would compare Africans and ducks regarding
intelligence and status as a rational being. Slavery was a case of
_perceived_ lack of intelligence, but that perception was clearly wrong and
based on "junk science". Do you really think it's just our mistaken
perception that ducks aren't as rational and intelligent as us? Honestly?

I'm really floored by this discussion. I had absolutely no idea that we had
this kind of division amongst Libertarians regarding what is and isn't the
appropriate place for the use of government force.

Well, let's just put it this way -- if Animal Liberation Front decides to
inflict force on me for the "crime" of eating meat, they'd better be wearing
Kevlar...

Rob