I recently came across a very interesting conversation between some journalists, activists, and readers. What follows is the transcript of a live streaming chat (from http://blogs.seattletimes.com/opinionnw/2013/08/26/chelsea-manning-bradley-transgender-chat/ ).
I've preserved the original comments from the chat unaltered, but took the liberty of adding comments for Chelsea, since she was -- being incarcerated -- presumably not allowed by government authorities to participate in this Internet livechat about her. The comments I added to the chat on her behalf are her statement to the media coming out as trans. I also added a comment from one other, uh, observer, who was definitely present but wasn't acknowledged.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
As I transition into this next phase of my life, I want everyone to know the real me. I am Chelsea Manning. I am a female. Given the way that I feel, and have felt since childhood, I want to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible. I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun. I hope that you will support me in this transition.
by Chelsea Manning August 22, 2013
Hi everyone, welcome to our Seattle Times opinion chat on transgender issues and Chelsea Manningby Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:00 AM
Thank you to our panelists for joining us todayby Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:00 AM
We have Bruce Ramsey, editorial columnist and writer. Say hi Bruce!by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:00 AM
Hello.by Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times August 29, 2013 at 11:01 AM
Danielle Askini, founding executive director of the Gender Justice League in Seattle, who wrote a guest column for The Seattle Times today. Say hi!by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:01 AM
Ina Fried, senior editor for AllThingsD. She is based in San Francisco.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:01 AM
Hi, thanks for doing this.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:01 AM
Greetings all! So glad to be here.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:01 AM
Ina is also a member of the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association. She chairs the Transgender and Allies task forceby Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:01 AM
Kate Riley, our editorial page editorby Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:01 AM
Thanh Tan, our multimedia editorial writerby Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:02 AM
We welcome comments and questions from everyone on this chat.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:02 AM
We will be using "she" and "Chelsea Manning" to refer to the soldier known as Private Manning.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:02 AM
Hello, Ina, Danielle, Bruce, Thanh and Sharon. Thanks so much for participating.by Kate Riley August 29, 2013 at 11:03 AM
Also, we have some ground rules for comments. Reader comments that are off topic, personal attacks or contain hate speech will not be approved. We hope to have a robust discussion on this topic.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:03 AM
So our first question goes to Bruce Ramsey, our editorial columnist.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:03 AM
Bruce wrote a blog post about Chelsea Manning that many people found offensive, because he said he laughed out loud when he saw the photo.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:03 AM
Bruce: What are your thoughts on the reader reaction to the blog post you wrote?by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:04 AM
A lot of people took it as laughter at transsexuals as such. I apologize for writing the blog in a way that prompted that. Also…by Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times August 29, 2013 at 11:04 AM
It’s fascinating how the transsexual theme changes the discussion, which was about a mass leaker of state secrets. I wanted…by Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times August 29, 2013 at 11:04 AM
to make light of a convicted spy pushing a medical claim on the very government she had betrayed, and the thought she might succeed.by Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times August 29, 2013 at 11:04 AM
And here is Bruce's post that I'm talking aboutby Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:04 AM
A Q to Ina and Danielle: What was your reaction when you read the post?by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:05 AM
Hello. I'd like to know if it would be legally possible to set up a fund for Chelsea that people could donate to for her to transition. Thanks.by Pamela_Drouin August 29, 2013 at 11:05 AM
Welcome to the chat Pamela! Thank you for joining us today.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:06 AM
My initial reaction was like that of most readers which is that I saw it as a ridicule at the idea of chesea's transition. It was hurtful. The notion that this is frivolous etc.. is widespread and inaccurate.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:06 AM
Thanks back :)by Pamela_Drouin August 29, 2013 at 11:06 AM
My point is, the govt doesn't have to pay, I am sure enough could be raise from supporters/sympathizers alone.by Pamela_Drouin August 29, 2013 at 11:07 AM
Hi, I was upset by the blog post by Mr. Ramsey. I'm wondering if he understands why it offended so many?by Reader August 29, 2013 at 11:07 AM
I think it is always challenging when this topic comes up, because I think a lot of people are still uneasy with transgender issues. But the idea is that everyone and anyone can be transgenderby ina August 29, 2013 at 11:07 AM
Yes, I think I understand it.by Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times August 29, 2013 at 11:07 AM
Please take our poll below. Totally voluntary. It'd just be nice to get a sense of who's participating in this chat. Thanks!
Poll: Should public insurance provide gender transition-related coverage?
Yes
No
I'm not sure.
by ttan August 29, 2013 at 2:58 PM
Poll: What is your gender identity?
Man
Woman
Transgender man
Transgender woman
Other
by ttan edited by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 2:58 PM
In this case, it is a convicted prisoner. The same week it was a Chicago billionaire by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:08 AM
Can I pick multiple things in the poll?by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:08 AM
Oops - point is, also, I don't know that "transgender" is a gender of its own.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:08 AM
Question for Bruce: What is your position on providing medically necessary care for prisoners?by Elayne Wylie August 29, 2013 at 11:09 AM
Hey Elayne, Thank you for joining us. We'll be getting to that issue shortly -- a really big point in this debate.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:09 AM
I see it now.by It doesn't appear that any... August 29, 2013 at 11:09 AM
The question is what's medically necessary.by Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times August 29, 2013 at 11:09 AM
OK, we weren't able to edit the poll but we're starting a new one.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:09 AM
Let's talk about what's medically necessary everyone, since Elayne brought it up. Thoughts?by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:10 AM
I think there is a growing sense that transgender people have a right to health care that includes coverage for trans-related health issues.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:10 AM
(There was an error in your poll. I tried to select female and transgender but after clicking the first one, it sent the answer before I could select the other - just to be clear, being transgender does not mean that I'm not female)by Tobi Hill-Meyer August 29, 2013 at 11:10 AM
What's tricky is that most of us don't have coverage for trans health care, still.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:11 AM
Thanks Tobi -- we are fixing the poll.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:11 AM
It's very kind of Pamela to want to donate to a transition fund. I wouldn't mind doing so, myself. However, I'd rather donate first to a fund for those citizens who aren't in prison.by Other_Reader August 29, 2013 at 11:11 AM
I think that there is a broad medical consensus that gender transition related care is medically necessary including therapy, hormones, and surgery for those who desire it. the AMA and APA including Federal Judges who have examined this have been clear.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:11 AM
Agreed, Bruce. "What is medically necessary" is indeed relevant. How do we as citizens make those kinds of decisions, when most of us lack the kind of education needed to make those decisions?by Elayne Wylie August 29, 2013 at 11:11 AM
Just re-posted our poll. Again, participation is voluntary. Thanks.by ttan August 29, 2013 at 11:11 AM
I think, two things about that brief exchange - there's really nothing funny about prisoners' fight for medical treatment (denying it is cruel and unusual punishment), and there is not any question of medical necessity - this has long been settled, as recognized by the AMA, WPATH, and others.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:11 AM
I don't think the medical necessity of transition related care is up for debate - every major medical organization is in consensus that it is medically necessary.by Tobi Hill-Meyer August 29, 2013 at 11:11 AM
The question is: what science backs claims of "brain sex" and other modern psychiatry disorders and moods.by It doesn't appear that any... August 29, 2013 at 11:11 AM
I'm open to the idea that insurance should cover this. But do realize that Medicaid does not cover gender reassignment therapy here. Nor does Medicare. The employer plan I’m in does not cover it. Premera Blue Cross says some of its employer plans offer it, but that it doesn’t sell gender-reassignment coverage to individuals.by Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times August 29, 2013 at 11:12 AM
So how about the rest of us who are not in prison? Should private and public insurance (Medicaid, as Bruce brought up) cover gender reassignment treatment?by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:12 AM
I think that the widespread exemptions against care are based purely on discriminatory factors "eww transgender people are icky" rather than the medical basis for care - does the treatment alleviate human suffering?by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:12 AM
The treatment for juvenile gender dysmorphias to postpone their adolescence is a concern to me. Permanent sterility and other side effects concern me. The side effects to long-term, expensive hormonal treatments are documented. These should be disallowed for juveniles, as 2 states mandate now.by It doesn't appear that any... August 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM
It's true that most insurance does not cover transition related care, but let's note that four states (Oregon, Vermont, Colorado, California) all consider this to be a form of discrimination and have made that illegal.by Tobi Hill-Meyer August 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM
To address both Bruce and Sharon, yes, I think it will be a good day when all trans people have health care that covers us. I get that it is tricky to cover it for a prisoner and not for other citizens, but the answer is health coverage for all.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM
Several states now: Oregon, Vermont, Colorado, California, Washington DC have all issued rules for private insurance companies that denying coverage for Gender Transition related care violates non-discrimination principals.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:13 AM
The collection of gender identity data is best conducted using a two-step process as described here: transhealth.ucsf.eduby Maddie Deutsch August 29, 2013 at 11:14 AM
This is a very fluid situation, but the tide is starting to shift.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:14 AM
Thanks for sharing that resource Maddieby Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:14 AM
There are 17 European countries, 4 south american countries, and 3 Asian countries that all cover transition related health care under their state plans ... many have done this since the 1970s! This isn't even remotely a debate in those places.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:14 AM
(Hi Maddie)by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:14 AM
@Ina -- Where is it starting to shift? Certain states?by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:14 AM
The question of coverage is different with group insurance and individual insurance. Individual insurance has the problem of adverse selection: people who plan to make a claim before they buy coverage. Group insurance bought through an employer avoids that problem.by Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times August 29, 2013 at 11:14 AM
Medicaid does cover transition-related care in some states, specifically California - and there is an administrative battle to have it covered by Medicare.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:14 AM
I think it would be great if insurance covered the treatment. I would hope there'd be some way to offset the great cost of the treatment, maybe with broader participation by non-transgendered people who don't need the treatment, or by slightly raised insurance fees.by Other_Reader August 29, 2013 at 11:15 AM
Certain states. San Francisco was one of the first cities to cover trans health care for workersby ina August 29, 2013 at 11:15 AM
Also a growing number of private employers.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:15 AM
The tide is shifting. When M2T invade female bathrooms and close down conferences and silence born females who want to question the transgender agenda that gives special rights to M2T over born females is an issue for me.by It doesn't appear that any... August 29, 2013 at 11:15 AM
Does anyone know if this issue -- covering transition-related care -- has been introduced in the Washington State Legislature?by Kate Riley August 29, 2013 at 11:15 AM
People make a big deal of the cost--and some trans health care is expensive. But so are lots of other health issues.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:16 AM
Is it time for Washington state to propose legislation to require coverage?by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:16 AM
This method allows the identification of transgender people by those whose birth sex and gender identity are different. The single step method, even one which allows transgender man/woman, will still not fully count all transgender respondents as some will identify simply as "male" or "female". Collecting birth sex information will still allow the identification of such people as transgender. And we all need to be counted accurately.by Maddie Deutsch August 29, 2013 at 11:16 AM
Anon, that is not the case - states have banned therapy to try to "Cure" trans kids of being trans. Hormone blockers in adolescence to delay puberty are widely supported, and do *not* cause any form of permanent sterility or anything like that.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:16 AM
Here is a great break down in cost! www.hrc.orgby Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:16 AM
And here we are talking about hormones--hormones which are actually relatively inexpensive. But the point isn't the cost. (even though the cost is less than people expect)by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:16 AM
Thanks Danielleby ina August 29, 2013 at 11:16 AM
How common is the need for these procedures in the US?by Other_Reader August 29, 2013 at 11:17 AM
Human Rights Campaign Coverage Costby Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:17 AM
Washington does require coverage (law prohibits discrimination against trans people in insurance policies), and the ACA may as well.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:17 AM
Trans people are still a small fraction of the population, and their health needs varyby ina August 29, 2013 at 11:17 AM
Ina: The San Fransisco case proved that there was a minimal (pennies, I think) cost increase to all subscribers, and the payout to cover procedures for Trans* people in the plan was not at all a burden. So it is not fiscally burdensome, in that plan. It's feasible to assume that it wouldn't be burdensome on a larger scale, either.by Elayne Wylie August 29, 2013 at 11:17 AM
For Ina, "so are lots of other health issues" are expensive is true, but it's not a very strong argument. You have to make the case that this is worth the cost to the system as a whole. Im not saying it isn't; but a case has to be made.by Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times August 29, 2013 at 11:17 AM
I'm posting this Trans Pride story that the news side did earlier this year: Seattle Times Trans Pride storyby Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:18 AM
Danielle was featured in that news storyby Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:18 AM
Some people decide they want some type of surgery (there isn't one "sex change" operation--that's a big myth) Others take hormones only and still others decide they don't want any medical intervention to be in their proper gender.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:18 AM
My assumption is that trans people just want to live their lives and are certainly not interested in looking under anybody's bathroom stall. I mean, really.by Other_Reader August 29, 2013 at 11:18 AM
Amy Wilheim: Has that ever been tested in court? Most insurance companies are not covering.by Kate Riley August 29, 2013 at 11:18 AM
As far as public coverage - Seattle covers trans-related procedures for employers.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:18 AM
@Bruce -- the cost in suicides alone -- 41% of Transgender people attempt suicide is reason alone for me. There are nearly no other medical conditions with such high rates of self harm. As a therapist, refusal to cover any other mental health condition with anti-depressants for instance because you cannot "SEE IT" would be rediculous.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:18 AM
Also, here is Danielle's guest column that ran in today's Seattle TimesWhy the government should provide gender reassignment treatment for Chelsea Manningby Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:19 AM
I disagree Bruce. It really shouldn't be up for debate whether trans health care should be covered. The cost to the system, as others have pointed out, is relatively minimal. But it is a human rights issue.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:19 AM
For Bruce: The case has been made - very strongly by SF Memos and it was enough to convince the four aforementioned states. You not being aware of the issue is different from people not having made the case.by Tobi Hill-Meyer August 29, 2013 at 11:19 AM
I get that it is still up for debate, but that is an unfortunate realityby ina August 29, 2013 at 11:19 AM
Bruce: Why does this require more justification than, say, cancer coverage, which is relatively exorbitantly expensive?by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:19 AM
@Amy there is currently a petition for rule making change here in Washington State to change Medicaid, this was tested before in Washington state whose medicaid USE to cover transition expenses. A Thrustan county judge said the exclusion would "not stand up in light given current scientific knowledge"by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:20 AM
Kate, not yet. States with similar language have issued guidance and the HHS Office of Civil rights issued guidance that the ACA bans discrimination, but I don't think there's court precedence. Yet.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:20 AM
The retail cost of a month of estradiol 2mg daily at costco.com is $5.90. Quite minimal.by Dan August 29, 2013 at 11:20 AM
That's interesting Dan. Thanks for the context.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:21 AM
Danielle: ah, shiny.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:21 AM
Cancer coverage is in. This isn't. So you have to make an argument to bring it in, that it's medically necessary. The insurance companies, and the federal and (WA) state governments haven't brought it in.\\
by Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times August 29, 2013 at 11:21 AM
Here's a link to the HHS letter I mentioned about the ACA banning discrimination against trans people: www.scribd.comby Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:21 AM
If I am of mixed-race and born with what are typically seen as "African-American" features, do those of you who feel insurance should cover gender reassignment surgery should cover my procedure as well?by Just asking August 29, 2013 at 11:21 AM
All people deserve compassionate care. But, there is no science behind these self-definitions of "feeling like a woman". No science. I support gay and civil rights and want compassionate healthcare single payer for all. But, the transgenders have come into private female spaces and shut down our right to assemble, and they have gotten discussions raising the issue of the science behind transgender silenced.by It doesn't appear that any... August 29, 2013 at 11:21 AM
What's your procedure?by Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times August 29, 2013 at 11:22 AM
@Just Asking -- not sure what you're asking. Are you proposing surgery to alter features considered race-related?by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:22 AM
Bruce, I think the case is that it is essential to trans people's health and well-being. Trans people denied health care are more likely to get unsafe street hormones, suffer from depression, at risk for suicideby ina August 29, 2013 at 11:22 AM
Every major medical organization recognizes that this is medically-necessary care, what more argument do you need?by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:22 AM
Amy - because it's a new idea that we non-transgendered people have to become accustomed to. I don't see it as a problem, but many, especially older people, see the whole subject as "icky."by Other_Reader August 29, 2013 at 11:22 AM
Again, we are getting side tracked by insurance. Insurance companies refuse to cover a lot of medically necessary things. If the question is medical necessity, then doctors and medical organizations should be the arbiters, not insurance claims departments.by Tobi Hill-Meyer August 29, 2013 at 11:23 AM
Amy, It's not what argument I need. I'm not setting the policy. It's what argument the governments involve need. And that the companies need.by Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times August 29, 2013 at 11:23 AM
Other, that's true! Thus the chat :)by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:23 AM
I think the question you raise Bruce shows the wide disparity between medical consensus and popular understanding of trans issues. The fact is still many people don't know a trans person and don't really understand the issues we face.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:23 AM
Ina, yes, that's probably so.by Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times August 29, 2013 at 11:24 AM
We're using gender transition treatment as shorthand. What are the range of treatments that transgender people seek out?by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:24 AM
Many people seem to focus entirely on sex reassignment surgery costs -- seeing that as big ticket. but a large majority of transgender people only use hormones which costs less than $100 a year for most people. Most Trans people don't even desire to have surgery --Chelsea hasn't even said she wants surgery.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:25 AM
Yep. Some people want some type of surgery. Many do not. Some want hormones and still others choose no medical intervention.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:25 AM
I thought this was a discussion of transgender identity but seems quite carefully contained in an insurance argument.by It doesn't appear that any... August 29, 2013 at 11:25 AM
Chelsea hasn't even said that she wants surgery - we dont' know. The cost could be minimal. Hormones (Estrogen, Testosterone blockers) are very inexpensive. Therapy is free to all inmates regardless of issues. The cost is minimal at best.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:25 AM
I'm happy to move on!by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:26 AM
@It doesn't brings up a good point. Let's move on to some other topics.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:26 AM
Media coverage has been a big part of the story. Ina -- do you want to talk about that as a journalist?by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:26 AM
My apologies. To clarify, yes if I were to want to change my features to reflect what is generally seen as typical features of a certain raceby Just asking August 29, 2013 at 11:26 AM
@Just Asking Interesting, but I think that's probably a topic for a whole other chat!by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:27 AM
California's Medicaid (MediCal) pays for trans care, including surgery. In the past it has been difficult to get surgery paid for with MediCal, but it's finally happening, at least in San Francisco. And MediCal is expanding to most low income people under the Affordable Care Act. Private insurance in California is no longer able to deny procedures to trans people that are provided to cisgender people.by Dan August 29, 2013 at 11:27 AM
to "It Doesn't Appear": There's plenty of science studying how gender works in the brain, and leading theories indicate there's a 'brain gender' that may not coincide with the body's gender.by Elayne Wylie August 29, 2013 at 11:27 AM
Chelsea has in fact said that at this time she is not pursuing surgery.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:27 AM
I have no problem with adults taking whatever mood or hormone drugs they want. My problem is in using a narrow, heteronormative definition of feminine that is being re-defined by transgender to be whirly skirts, glitter, high heels and big barbie boobs. Why should people with penis be deferred to as female, and not just transexual or transvestite? XY will never be a woman.by It doesn't appear that any... August 29, 2013 at 11:27 AM
Thanks, Sharon. Trans coverage is tricky for many journalists. But really the accepted style is quite simple. Cover people as the gender they identify with. If Chelsea identifies as a woman, we identify her as oneby ina August 29, 2013 at 11:27 AM
Based on my reading of one of the articles Danielle cited, I think the cost is in line with other major medical procedures - or a several-day stay in the hospital for emergency treatment, for example. I think insurance should cover the treatment. Thanks for the info, Danielle.by Other_Reader August 29, 2013 at 11:27 AM
Society allows a wide range of behaviors which lead to far higher medical costs than the few hundred dollars/year it costs for hormones. Tobacco, fast food, sugar sodas, biking without a helmet. All have very high costs and when measures relating to them are introduced there is fierce resistance from a civil liberty perspective. If we as a society have made the value judgment that insurance should pick up the tab related to the behaviors why are we refusing to allow the relatively cheap coverage of medically necessary treatments for something which in reality is not even a choice?by Maddie Deutsch August 29, 2013 at 11:28 AM
I think what is tricky is that when someone who is already well known comes out, news organizations struggle in those early hours and daysby ina August 29, 2013 at 11:28 AM
Yeah but It, we don't do that. Most of the times I wear jeans and a simple top.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:28 AM
I welcome a discussion of other forms of dysphoria... but, that is out of scope for this chat I believe.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:28 AM
I am uncomfortable with medically necessary care being put up for a vote, even if it's just a poll. This should be decided by doctors and medical organizations, not by public opinion.by Tobi Hill-Meyer August 29, 2013 at 11:28 AM
Yeah, anon, that's not up for discussion. We're here, we're trans, etc.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:28 AM
Here's a guest column that ran in the Kansas City Star by Kelly Luck Kelly Luck guest columnby Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:29 AM
NPR posted this interesting link, an insight into how editors thought through how it would refer to Chelsea Manning.http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/08/23/214941331/npr-issues-new-guidance-on-mannings-gender-identityby Kate Riley August 29, 2013 at 11:29 AM
This is the guidance we follow at The Seattle Times, which is based on the Associated Press stylebook: transgender Use the pronoun preferred by the individuals who have acquired the physical characteristics of the opposite sex or present themselves in a way that does not correspond with their sex at birth.
If that preference is not expressed, use the pronoun consistent with the way the individuals live publicly.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:30 AM
I really appreciate @Maddie_Deutch's comment on the tons of other things with much higher health care costs for us all - tobacco, alcohol, sugar soda, fast food.. we don't refuse to treat people who suffer the side effects of those.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:30 AM
It used to be that people had to change their name and gender legally to be recognized in the paper. But not everyone can afford to do that. Thankfully AP and other news organization style is to recognize people as their gender as soon as they identify as such. In practice,n that doesn't always happenby ina August 29, 2013 at 11:30 AM
The AP stylebook is unfortunate - ideally, media should use the pronoun preference expressed by a person.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:31 AM
But often news organizations violate their own style on Day 1 or Day 2 of a new trans story. That's unfortunate.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:31 AM
@amy that is the style actually nowby ina August 29, 2013 at 11:31 AM
Here are the guidelines provided by the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Associationby Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:31 AM
I agree with Ina, it is unfortunate and there is a steep learning curve for many news orgs. What is disappointing is to see the ongoing refusal to use Chelsea's name and pronouns when her statement was clear: "From now on" it is a matter of basic respect!by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:32 AM
An excerpt from the NLGJA guidelines: "Here are a couple of guidelines that may help you in your coverage.
Things that are simple in most stories get tricky when writing about transgender subjects, particularly names and pronouns. As per AP style, one should use the name and pronouns that someone prefers. It’s not about drivers’ licenses or birth certificates. Because of Manning’s name recognition, we suggest that she be referenced as “US Army Private Chelsea Manning, who formerly went by the name Bradley.”
It is not about surgeries and hormones. If a person wants to talk about these very personal topics, fine, but one’s gender identity and right to be respected aren’t dependent on taking such actions, nor are these necessarily public topics.
Avoid playing into stereotypes. Not all trans people are seeking to become the archetype of the gender to which they are transitioning. And, at the same time, lots of people who don’t change gender aren’t necessarily the physical epitome of what one thinks of as a man or woman. Avoid subjective assessments of how someone passes."by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:32 AM
Yep, thanks Sharon. NLGJA - a group for LGBT journalists is also available to help News orgs with questions BEFORE bad coverage occurs. We're a group of journalists ourselves, all concerned with fair and accurate coverage.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:32 AM
I also don't see how it "harms" news organizations to use someone's name and pronouns - Chelsea is so widely known by her last name and people can make reference to why she is known when discussing her gender transition. That should be enough reference for any person to know who is being discussed -- as I did in my Op-Ed.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:33 AM
We also reach out through a rapid response team when inaccurate coverage occurs and try to education our colleaguesby ina August 29, 2013 at 11:33 AM
I must request that the editorial staff better moderate the comments of the anonymous poster who has been making sweeping comments out of step with science and current trends, such as arguing that there is no science to support transgender identities or implying the stereotype that transgender people are have/wear "whirly skirts, glitter, high heels and big barbie boobs"by Maddie Deutsch August 29, 2013 at 11:33 AM
Hey Maddie,by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:34 AM
Yeah, I see that's what's most used now. I think it's unfortunate it took a major event and outcry to get these new guidelines publicity, but I am glad it took.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:34 AM
Thank you for your thoughts. We set up the guidelines earlier: We will not approve comments that are personal attacks, hate speech or off topic.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:34 AM
Oh for sure Amy. I have been having arguments for a decade with colleagues before this happened.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:34 AM
Here is a question for Danielle and Ina: How do you feel about the fact that Chelsea Manning is now the de facto representative for the transgender community?by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:35 AM
The style changes are several years old now. The problem, as this case illustrates is that many news organizations still don't follow their own styleby ina August 29, 2013 at 11:35 AM
I think it is really hard for any one individual to be thrust into the spotlight in that way. And yet any time a trans person is in the news, they are forced into being a de facto spokespersonby ina August 29, 2013 at 11:36 AM
I think that Chelsea's transition brings about an important conversation about the conditions for Trans people who are incarcerated --in that respect I am very glad for her announcement which I see as brave. Personally I support her actions to reveal "state secrets" that she thought were used to cover up war crimes and abuses by the government such at torture, the murder of civilians, etc..by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:36 AM
It's a huge and unfair expectation that often takes a huge toll on the individual (and often there is a backlash because they can't and don't represent all of trans-dom"by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:37 AM
@Ina Not everyone can be Jeremy Lin!by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:37 AM
I think instead we should use these cases to tell readers about the depth and breadth of the communityby ina August 29, 2013 at 11:37 AM
@Ina I totally agree! To have your private life and identity thrust into the spotlight and ridiculed so openly is horrifying.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:37 AM
(Jeremy Lin has become the de facto representative for the Asian American community.)by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:38 AM
We are prisoners and billionaires, yes. But we are lots and lots of different people.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:38 AM
Sometimes perhaps it is best to avoid using pronouns and just use a person's name. It's a shame we don't have genderless pronouns in English.by Reader August 29, 2013 at 11:38 AM
I believe that news outlets, even the "good guys", at times intentionally sensationalize a story on day 1 or 2 as Ina (hi!) mentioned in order to sell headlines.by Maddie Deutsch August 29, 2013 at 11:38 AM
If I can answer that as well - I don't feel that she is. I feel that she's a very visible member of the community right now, but so are Janet Mock, Chaz Bono, and others. Certainly Janet Mock is producing much more content and saying a lot of good things (I highly recommend looking up her blog) - Manning's pretty cut off.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:38 AM
re: the de facto rep for the trans* community...because we are still a highly marginalized community, we don't seem to have a de facto representative, so cisgender folks are constantly looking at the latest news-making person as that representative. This couldn't be more false. There are policy makers, doctors, lawyers, actresses, organizations, and the like doing positive work each day that function in that role, if only we'd stop looking at the twitter feeds and news blogs for a moment.by Elayne Wylie August 29, 2013 at 11:38 AM
Agreed Maddie, though I think sometimes it is just ignorance, not trying to sell papers.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:38 AM
I have a basic 101 question for Ina and Danielle: How are people who are not transgender behave sensitively around people who are transgender?by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:39 AM
Also interested in hearing our commenters' answers to that questionby Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:39 AM
I think it is treating people as people, first and foremost. Being trans is a part of who I am, but so is sports fan, journalist, Jew, etc.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:40 AM
I think it using the pronoun someone prefers, no matter how you see them or have known them.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:40 AM
guess it's time for my oar. I wish that some of the benefits provided to those folks now 'changing' had been around so long ago for mine. meds were a given and rather cheap. the surgery was not. cost a lot of $$ then and now. not that many drs around that can do it (it's not the simple day to day surery procedure. takes a bunch to get it done. mine was in belgium. I do envy some of those going thru it now but---. some places will make changes to their files to accomodate but many employers won't until the knife work has been done. many years ago but all history now.by diane August 29, 2013 at 11:40 AM
Reader, good news! "They" is well-established as a singular gender-neutral pronoun, and there are a variety of others as well which are less widely known.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:40 AM
Also, it doesn't mean asking a ton of personal questions about what medical care they are doing. For some reason people think that is acceptable, in ways that they would never ask a non trans personby ina August 29, 2013 at 11:41 AM
I agree with Ina, I also think simply giving people the basic respect of using the name they want to go by and the pronouns they use. It's not that hard, it takes nothing away from you, and it goes a long way to basic civility. I don't sit in judgement about the statements other people make about themselves as men, women, neither or both.. I don't think anyone else should.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:41 AM
@Ina Can you please explain what F2T and M2T mean, for those of us who are not totally up on the terms yet?by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:41 AM
Right - we're just people. But also, I am a woman - treat us as the gender we identify as (and use the correct pronouns). Careful what questions you ask - I give friends a lot of freedom with that, but in general don't ask people questions that you wouldn't ask equivalents of if they were cis.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:42 AM
There's a million ways to describe one's gender and lots of acronyms MTF( male to female) etc I'd guess F2T is for someone born female but identifies primarily as transgender, M2T being someone born maleby ina August 29, 2013 at 11:42 AM
F2T and M2T are derogatory terms to refer to trans peopleby Tobi Hill-Meyer August 29, 2013 at 11:42 AM
Cisgender is not a welcome label. I am a woman. Female. XX. Why is this new derogatory term allowed? I lived in a rural community and was friendly to the trans who came through. When a M2T effectively got a local camp-out halted AND sent threatening legal letters to an all-born-female board of directors I learned how trans agenda sometimes trumps born female agenda. Why should 1.7% of population, if that is accurate, dictate to 51% of born female population what to call ourselves, what persons with penis we allow in our bathrooms and in woman-only events with quite young children. These are facts, not sweeping generalization.by Cheryl August 29, 2013 at 11:43 AM
M2T (and the reader can explain for themselves) is usually Male-to-Trans or F2T meaning Female to Trans --that is to say people who do not see their identities in a male and female binary.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:43 AM
Those are all the topics we wanted to address in this chat. Readers -- what questions do you have for our panelists?by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:43 AM
They are taking older terms that folks avoid using now (male to female, female to male) and changing it to be male to trans, female to trans, as a way to emphasize a belief that we are not really male or female.by Tobi Hill-Meyer August 29, 2013 at 11:43 AM
Yech. F2T and M2T are designed to indicate "to trans" and I've most often seen used by transphobes deny trans people their gender.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:43 AM
Amy - Using "they" instead of "him" or "her" might be ok in conversation, but in written English? No, I don't think so.by Reader August 29, 2013 at 11:44 AM
Cisgender is a descriptor much like heterosexual or bisexual --with latin orgins. While some might find it 'derogatory" it is no more derogatory than saying "heterosexual" --it is a scientific description.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:44 AM
Some folks use the terms for themselves to indicate non-binary identification, but as they are being used here it is an attempt to emphasize trans people's genders not being real.by Tobi Hill-Meyer August 29, 2013 at 11:44 AM
Cisgender is not derogatory, and it applies to men as well. It is required in language for the same reason as the word straight is.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:44 AM
@ Tobi and @Amy right on. Thank you!by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:44 AM
I'm guessing on the f2t being female to trans and m2t being male to trans. seems it was easier to simply go with m2f and f2m-- female to male and male to female.by diane August 29, 2013 at 11:46 AM
Reader, it is most definitely accepted in written English. Don't look at me, Shakespeare started it :Pby Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:46 AM
Danielle, in your oped, you mentioned your concerns about the safety of transgender people in prison. You cited a disturbing comment by a CNN legal analyst. Can you talk more about that?by Kate Riley August 29, 2013 at 11:47 AM
Here is the video of Richard Herman's comments on CNNby Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:47 AM
Sure. I am deeply concerned about any trans person who is incarcerated! Their safety shoudl be of upmost concern given the studies that show Transgender women are 13 times more likely to be sexually assaulted. The Richard Herman comments on CNN illustrate how we have no appetite for this in our culture.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:48 AM
Fun fact! Singular they was originally considered grammatically correct until an act of British Parliament in the 17th century that decided that the correct singular gender neutral pronoun should be "he."by Tobi Hill-Meyer August 29, 2013 at 11:48 AM
What sort of prison would Chelsea be in?by Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times August 29, 2013 at 11:48 AM
Richard Herman basically implied in his CNN comment that prison rape would be "good practice" for Chelsea to be a woman.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:49 AM
Chelsea should be in a medical facility, or as she transitions moved into a women's facility.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:49 AM
@bruce, Chelsea has said she expects to be sent to a male prison.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:49 AM
I do not believe cisgender is meant to be derogatory - but perhaps you can think of a different term that is non derogatory to both transgender and non-transgender people? The prefix "cis" means on the same side, as opposed to "trans" which means on the opposite side. It is the latin antonym of trans.
"Born female" is often viewed as a derogatory term, not to mention referring to people as "persons with a penis"by Alex Guenser August 29, 2013 at 11:49 AM
Cheryl's comment highlights my and Tobi's observations - a transgender man is not in any way a woman, and "F2T" to describe him is used in the context of denying his gender identity. And no citation has been provided for these claims that hormone blockers for children are in any way harmful.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:49 AM
Bad idea, I think.by Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times August 29, 2013 at 11:49 AM
But agree @danielle, that's how it should be. No one, even prisoners, should have the right to live in their gender taken away. It is a basic human rightby ina August 29, 2013 at 11:50 AM
@Sharon -- exactly, this is the type of sentiment that is so problematic. Would people want to see me in a men's prison? Transgender women are proven to be at far higher risk in a men's prison than any risk they might prose in a women's prison. Prisons are not like "Orange is the New Black" having worked in several.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:50 AM
@Danielle I agree Chelsea should be moved to a woman's prison as she transitionsby Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:50 AM
Bruce, ideally she'd be in a women's prison. Some states allow this if a person has had genital reconstruction surgery; others do not, but absolutely should. Is this what you're referring to as "Bad idea" and can you articulate why, please?by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:50 AM
Bullying is horrific. Teen years are difficult for anyone. Females, males, gays, of color, transvestites, transgenders should all have dignity.by Cheryl August 29, 2013 at 11:51 AM
Bad idea to put her in a men's prison.by Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times August 29, 2013 at 11:51 AM
Also, to clarify my last comment - none of these states should require surgery as it is inaccessible to many, many people.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:51 AM
There are other options as well, such as being placed in a medical facility, a lower security facility, or so on.by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:52 AM
Hey everyone, thank you so much for joining us on this chat today. Sorry we weren't able to get to everyone's comments.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:52 AM
Ah, okay. Yeah, it is a remarkably bad idea - unfortunately, prisoners' rights in general and particularly those of minorities tend to fall by the wayside in our political discourse.by Amy Wilhelm August 29, 2013 at 11:52 AM
I would like to especially thank Ina, Danielle, Bruce and Thanh for joining the chat.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:52 AM
Thanks for starting a conversation, Sharon. Clearly there is a need for more dialogue in society.by ina August 29, 2013 at 11:52 AM
Thank you all so much for this conversation, it is so vitally needed!by Danielle Askini August 29, 2013 at 11:53 AM
Thanks for the hour. It's been interesting, to be sure.by Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times August 29, 2013 at 11:53 AM
I'm so glad we're having a dialogue about this issue. Thanks all for participating and sharing your wisdom.by ttan August 29, 2013 at 11:53 AM
Agree -- this has been super educational. Thank you to all the readers for your thoughtful comments and added context and resources.by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:53 AM
I'm shutting down the chat. Goodbye everyone!by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 11:53 AM
Hello, can I say something now? I'm the elephant in the room, the big question nobody's asked -- or maybe that was asked, but wasn't allowed to appear in the chat: How can Barack Obama allow a transgender whistleblower who exposed war crimes to serve years in jail rather than pardoning him, while those who committed and allowed the war crimes go unprosecuted, and how can the GLBTQ community sit quietly and not voice our outrage at him for this? And how come these panelists and moderator let Bruce Ramsey get away with calling Chelsea Manning a convicted SPY? I mean, who was she supposedly spying FOR? Hello, am I all alone in here? Can anyone hear me? Hello?? by the elephant in the room August 29, 2013 at 11:54 AM
Poll: What is your gender identity?
Man (22%)
Woman (30%)
Transgender man (4%)
Transgender woman (35%)
Other (9%)
by ttan edited by Sharon Pian Chan, Seattle... August 29, 2013 at 2:58 PM
Poll: Should public insurance provide gender transition-related coverage?
Yes (75%)
No (25%)
I'm not sure. (0%)
by ttan August 29, 2013 at 2:58 PM
POSTSCRIPT - A question for online gay & lesbian manners blogger, "Mr Manners" Stephen Petrow (posted at http://www.gaymanners.com/ask-mr-manners ). Please tell him you'd like to see this letter published, and get to read the rest of it!
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I personally found it interesting to hear the kinds of things that journalists and transgender activists are saying on this topic, but your mileage may vary.