Has this list become "GOP-SF-discuss?"

I'm not going to reply to the (limited) substance of this post -- I will instead only point out that this sort of "bullying" style, both in approach to LP politics in general and my legitimate concerns in particular, is claimed by Mr. Holtz to be "what's needed to grow the party."

The "classic" Libertarian approach was most successful in 2006 -- the LP had its best national vote total EVER. Holtz's Republican Lite approach to libertarianism will soon have its numbers on display -- first in the Ron Paul primary vote, and then in the vote totals of LRC candidates. I'm planning to just bide my time and see who's right -- and judging from the number of turned off people (including folks I was recruiting into the LP who are now taking a wait-and-see approach as a result of all this), I suspect I won't be waving the white flag come November 2008.

Cheers,

Brian

Brian Miller wrote:

BM) I'm not going to reply to the (limited) substance of this post (BM

Translation: I'm not going to defend my flawed analogies between 1)
candidates who have been previously nominated by another party and have been
endorsed by a current leading candidate of that party, and 2) candidates who
haven't.

BM) I will instead only point out that this sort of "bullying" style, both
in approach to LP politics in general and my legitimate concerns in
particular, is claimed by Mr. Holtz to be "what's needed to grow the party."
(BM

This is flatly false, these quotation marks are around words that are not
mine, and I defy you to quote me ever making any such claim. I've never
suggested that me defending myself from lies and distortions is some kind of
tactic for growing the LP.

As for "bullying", you are the one who wrote to me on ca-liberty on Aug
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ca-liberty/message/5181> 31 (the third day
of your life that you ever addressed a message to me): "Hopefully, this
spanking will prevent you from indulging in such childishness in the
future." In the five weeks since then I've apparently gone from spanked
child to "bully". I guess you've now learned what I told you in reply to
your "spanking" remark: "My email archives suggest you're new to LPCA
forums. You might want to do a few searches on these forums to see how often
I let an argument directed at me go unrebutted." If systematically
rebutting purported "spankings" makes me a "bully", then so be it.

BM) The "classic" Libertarian approach was most successful in 2006 -- the LP
had its best national vote total EVER. (BM

Interesting -- would that be the election immediately following the Portland
Platform massacre? :slight_smile: See below about what factors influence LP electoral
results.

BM) Holtz's Republican Lite approach to libertarianism will soon have its
numbers on display -- first in the Ron Paul primary vote, and then in the
vote totals of LRC candidates. (BM

I disagree with Ron Paul's absolutist isolationism, his anti-Fed conspiracy
theorizing, his gold buggery, his pro-life position, his pandering to
anti-immigration xenophobes, and his unwillingness to fully apply the Bill
of Rights and Faith and Credit Clause to the states. While (like you) I
agree with of many of his other positions, and while I agree with him that
constitutionalism (properly defined) is a good tactic for rolling back the
size of government, it's just silly to say that Paul's performance among
Republican primary voters is a good proxy for how I advocate that the LP try
to appeal to the 16% to 20% of Americans that polls show want more economic
and civil liberty.

The efforts of an "LRC candidate" (who?) in one campaign cannot overcome the
image that the LP has built with opinion makers in the last three decades.
Other factors have far more influence on electoral outcomes. For example,
in my 2004 race I got a higher percentage than any LP candidate has
apparently ever earned in my district in a 3-way race. However, in 2006
there was also a Green in the race, and while I outpolled her in a district
where Greens outnumber RegLibs 2-1, it still cut my result from 3.6% to 2.3%
despite me running on an identical platform as 2004. Mike Moloney ran full
time in 1998 as a Libertarian in CA12 and only got 5% -- just a little
better than the standard LP share in 3-way congressional races. In 2002, he
ran on the same platform, in the same district, but as a Republican, and got
as many votes as any Republican would get -- 25%. (In that race the San
Mateo Daily News said he and the LP candidate were in "uneasy agreement on
issues ranging from opposition to a possible war in Iraq and gun control to
support for medical marijuana". This was a race in which the Daily News
endorsed the LP candidate, who ended up getting 7%.) No serious observer of
politics would claim that the individual platform of an LP candidate has
anywhere near as much influence on his results as factors like his lack of
two-major-party opposition, lack of minor-party opposition, ballot line
occupational designation, campaign spending, name recognition, history of
community involvement, and resume.

As for your favorite serial distortion about "Holtz's Republican Lite
approach to libertarianism", I repeat here for the fourth time my unrebutted
response: "I despise the GOP's pandering to the religious right and its
empty lip service to free markets. I regularly vilify the GOP for its
tolerance of laws regulating prices, minimum wages, maximum hours, equal
pay, plant closure, family leave, hiring, firing, occupational licensure,
insurance policies, zoning, rents, product safety, drug efficacy, fuel
efficiency, pollution mitigation technology, parental media control, media
copying technology, etc. I berate the GOP for its failure to use its
legislative majority to start privatizing any of our socialized systems of
education, health care, health insurance, agriculture, and retirement
savings. I bitterly attack the GOP for its support of regulations and bans
on gambling, suicide, substance use, pornography, gay marriage, sexual
services, reproductive services, and cloning." I question the honor and
integrity of anyone who could continue to spew your "Republican Lite"
distortion in the face of this repeated correction. Have you no shame, sir?

Just make sure you don't loose your white flag between
now and then Brian M, just in case....

-TJ Campbell
--- Brian Miller <hightechfella@...> wrote:

I'm not going to reply to the (limited) substance of
this post -- I will instead only point out that this
sort of "bullying" style, both in approach to LP
politics in general and my legitimate concerns in
particular, is claimed by Mr. Holtz to be "what's
needed to grow the party."

The "classic" Libertarian approach was most
successful in 2006 -- the LP had its best national
vote total EVER. Holtz's Republican Lite approach
to libertarianism will soon have its numbers on
display -- first in the Ron Paul primary vote, and
then in the vote totals of LRC candidates. I'm
planning to just bide my time and see who's right --
and judging from the number of turned off people
(including folks I was recruiting into the LP who
are now taking a wait-and-see approach as a result
of all this), I suspect I won't be waving the white
flag come November 2008.

Cheers,

Brian

From: Brian Holtz <brian@...>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Cc: marketliberal@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2007 9:04:24 AM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Has this list become
"GOP-SF-discuss?"

Brian
Miller wrote:

  BM) regardless of (by some miracle) whether
  Paul wins the nomination or not, the LP will be
running a more Libertarian
  candidate against him. (BM

LOL. If Ron Paul is leading in the GOP
delegate count in May and is on track to win the GOP
nomination, I'll donate
$1000 to the LP in your honor if NatCon nominates
anyone to oppose
him.

  BM) they wouldn't be accepted on GOP or
  Democratic Party lists if the e-mails were about
George Phillies and
  Libertarian Party meetings (BM

Can you remind us again what year
Phillies was the GOP or Democratic nominee for
President? Can you remind
us again what first-tier candidate among the GOP or
Democrats has
endorsed Phillies the way Kubby has endorsed Paul?

  BM) if the Libertarian voters who are
  supporting Democrats posted DNC fundraiser event
news, calls for support
  for the Richardson campaign, etc. [...] (BM

Can you remind us again what year
Richardson was the LP nominee for President? Can
you remind us again what
first-tier LP candidate has endorsed Richardson?

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