Brendan,
Here’s the British documentary film about anthropogenic global warming (aka climate change) that I mentioned to you when we were hanging out yesterday:
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
It’s from 2007, but still the most compelling explanation I’ve found of what’s really going on with temperature on Earth.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Hi Starchild
I’m happy to talk through any specific scientific arguments with respect to
climate change that you’re interested in. I watched a few minutes of this
documentary. So far it’s just made claims that climate change is some
scheme to make money, or hinder the development of Africa. The fact is that
climate change is human-caused and addressing it is urgent. I was honestly
pretty shocked when you told me you didn’t believe this. Every year more
and more people are dying or losing everything they have due to disasters
directly linked to climate change. 2024 was the hottest year ever recorded
since 1880. Before that, 2023 had been the hottest year to have ever been
recorded. Significant portions of LA just burned in massive wildfires in
winter.
Ironically, libertarians should be some of the strongest supporters of
addressing climate change because we know tragedies of the commons can
always be solved through robust property rights. You would never be allowed
to dump your garbage on someone’s doorstep without consent; why is everyone
allowed to dump their garbage into the air for free?
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:26 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:
Brendan,
Here’s the British documentary film about anthropogenic global warming
(aka climate change) that I mentioned to you when we were hanging out
yesterday:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQIt’s from 2007, but still the most compelling explanation I’ve found of
what’s really going on with temperature on Earth.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
I try to keep an open mind about it, but am definitely on the skeptical side of the fence where the Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory is concerned. I’m always happy to discuss, but would encourage anyone wishing to do so to watch the full documentary, and don’t be put off by the inflammatory title and opening sequence – it makes a much better case than a cursory glance at those things would suggest.
I fully agree that the climate has been changing – for as long as the Earth has been around. If the causes of past swings of cooling and warming are not fully understood, which I don’t believe they are, I don’t think natural causes can be ruled out as the main drivers of recently observed climate change.
Pollution can indeed by seen as a form of trespass and violation of the Non-Aggression Principle, at least when it reaches a certain threshold. Like most things, it’s a matter of degree. A person exhaling carbon dioxide by breathing is adding CO2 to the atmosphere as surely as a smog-belching factory, just on a much smaller scale. I’m dubious of whether there’s any clear and simple application of property rights that could solve air pollution issues, as nice as it would be to have such a tidy libertarian solution.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 5:09 PM, Brendan McMillion brendanmcmillion@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Starchild
I’m happy to talk through any specific scientific arguments with respect to climate change that you’re interested in. I watched a few minutes of this documentary. So far it’s just made claims that climate change is some scheme to make money, or hinder the development of Africa. The fact is that climate change is human-caused and addressing it is urgent. I was honestly pretty shocked when you told me you didn’t believe this. Every year more and more people are dying or losing everything they have due to disasters directly linked to climate change. 2024 was the hottest year ever recorded since 1880. Before that, 2023 had been the hottest year to have ever been recorded. Significant portions of LA just burned in massive wildfires in winter.
Ironically, libertarians should be some of the strongest supporters of addressing climate change because we know tragedies of the commons can always be solved through robust property rights. You would never be allowed to dump your garbage on someone’s doorstep without consent; why is everyone allowed to dump their garbage into the air for free?
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:26 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Brendan,
Here’s the British documentary film about anthropogenic global warming (aka climate change) that I mentioned to you when we were hanging out yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
youtube.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQThe Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQIt’s from 2007, but still the most compelling explanation I’ve found of what’s really going on with temperature on Earth.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Global average temperature for the past 2k years can be measured relatively
accurately:
You can see in the graph in this link that the temperature increase since
1850 is so dramatic that it is double any naturally-occurring temperature
change in the past 2k years.
Though there are also estimates of the global average temperature that go
back 150k years:
In this scale, the past 150 years are a vertical tick. No other time in the
past 150k years has the temperature increased so much so quickly. So
there’s no empirical evidence of natural climate change this quick, or any
natural cause that can realistically point to as an explanation.
We know causally that increased co2 concentration in the atmosphere will
increase global temperatures because of the greenhouse effect. And when you
graph co2 concentration against global temperature, you see they correlate
exactly:
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:48 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:
I try to keep an open mind about it, but am definitely on the skeptical
side of the fence where the Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory is
concerned. I’m always happy to discuss, but would encourage anyone wishing
to do so to watch the full documentary, and don’t be put off by the
inflammatory title and opening sequence – it makes a much better case than
a cursory glance at those things would suggest.I fully agree that the climate has been changing – for as long as the
Earth has been around. If the causes of past swings of cooling and warming
are not fully understood, which I don’t believe they are, I don’t think
natural causes can be ruled out as the main drivers of recently observed
climate change.Pollution can indeed by seen as a form of trespass and violation of the
Non-Aggression Principle, at least when it reaches a certain threshold.
Like most things, it’s a matter of degree. A person exhaling carbon dioxide
by breathing is adding CO2 to the atmosphere as surely as a smog-belching
factory, just on a much smaller scale. I’m dubious of whether there’s any
clear and simple application of property rights that could solve air
pollution issues, as nice as it would be to have such a tidy libertarian
solution.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 5:09 PM, Brendan McMillion brendanmcmillion@gmail.com > wrote:
Hi Starchild
I’m happy to talk through any specific scientific arguments with respect
to climate change that you’re interested in. I watched a few minutes of
this documentary. So far it’s just made claims that climate change is some
scheme to make money, or hinder the development of Africa. The fact is that
climate change is human-caused and addressing it is urgent. I was honestly
pretty shocked when you told me you didn’t believe this. Every year more
and more people are dying or losing everything they have due to disasters
directly linked to climate change. 2024 was the hottest year ever recorded
since 1880. Before that, 2023 had been the hottest year to have ever been
recorded. Significant portions of LA just burned in massive wildfires in
winter.Ironically, libertarians should be some of the strongest supporters of
addressing climate change because we know tragedies of the commons can
always be solved through robust property rights. You would never be allowed
to dump your garbage on someone’s doorstep without consent; why is everyone
allowed to dump their garbage into the air for free?On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:26 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:
Brendan,
Here’s the British documentary film about anthropogenic global warming
(aka climate change) that I mentioned to you when we were hanging out
yesterday:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQIt’s from 2007, but still the most compelling explanation I’ve found of
what’s really going on with temperature on Earth.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Below is a message I posted to the LPSF list and others back in 2020 that addresses this argument of unprecedented recent temperature rise. This warming has not correlated well with human emissions of carbon dioxide and other “greenhouse gases”. There are more details on this in the film:
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
From: Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net
Subject: [bayareafaeries] Rapid, dramatic climate change the media are ignoring?
Date: March 8, 2020 at 9:14:43 PM PDT
To: LPSF Discussion List lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Bay Area Faeries bayareafaeries@groups.queernet.org, Bay Area Liberty ba-liberty@yahoogroups.com, LibertarianHorizons@groups.io, SFBay Cannabis Community List SFBayCannabisCommunity@yahoogroups.com, CALibs@yahoogroups.com, LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com, bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.comEarth’s climate has been changing as long as the planet has existed, and the planet has been both colder and warmer at various times in the past than it is now. Human activity played essentially zero role in most of these changes, since they happened before the industrial era. These facts are not controversial, but they tend to be downplayed in media discussions of climate change and how it allegedly presents a serious threat to humans and the planet.
When I’ve pointed out this long history of “natural” (non-human-caused) climate change to folks who believe the mainstream narrative that human activity is causing major climatic change now and that this is a major problem, a response I’ve often gotten is that this time is different because climate change in the past has never been as rapid or dramatic as it has recently. While that point seems to be taken more on faith than on any particular knowledge of past temperature records, it has been difficult to dispute because the temperature record of Earth’s climate history is usually framed in long periods of geological time rather than looking at what temperature changes occurred in a few brief decades.
The article below, however, discusses scientific findings based on studying the isotopes in Greenland ice core samples which show that some of the global warming that took place thousands of years ago was more rapid and dramatic than recent global warming allegedly caused by humans:
“The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene. Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming 14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between ~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core suggests that Greenland was more than ~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas occurred in only about 40 to 50. years.” [emphasis added]
By way of comparison, advocates of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory (the idea that humans are responsible for global warming) are predicting less warming than this over a longer time period even if none of their recommendations to combat global warming are followed. The International Energy Agency (IEA) recently predicted we’re “on track for about 3 degrees Celsius of warming by 2100”, while the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) predicts warming of about 4° Celsius by 2100 in its “worse case” scenario of coal use growing dramatically during the 21st century – an outcome that many now view as unrealistic (see Climate Change Worst-Case Scenario Now Looks Unrealistic).
Again, that’s 4° of warming over 80 years being predicted by AGW theory proponents as the worst case scenario if humans continue to burn fossil fuels without regard to climate change, versus 10° of warming that occurred historically over a 40 or 50 year period some 11,500 years ago – if you trust the science.
Also of note is the graph accompanying the story, which shows in dramatic visual terms how insignificant recent warming is in comparison to this historical warming.
Now to be clear, the point is not that 3 or 4 degrees of global warming in the next 80 years would not be disruptive. I’m sure it would be, to both the environment and the economy. There might be good reasons to try to tamper with Earth’s climate in order to prevent such a change.
But this evidence of more rapid dramatic warming having occurred in the past suggests that even if the Earth does get 3 or 4 degrees warmer by 2100, it would not herald irreversible doom as some alarmists would have us believe. The science is telling us that the planet warmed more rapidly in the past during a shorter time frame, and then temperatures eventually more or less leveled out. Earth didn’t just continue to get warmer and warmer in a self-perpetuating, out-of-control cycle.
Another important thing to understand is that scientists aren’t sure what caused the rapid warming that ended the Younger Dryas period. This lack of understanding of “natural” causes of climate change suggests that if whatever caused the rapid warming 11,500 years ago, also caused the milder warming the Earth has experienced recently, we wouldn’t know. The assumption that recent warming must be due to human activity because “nothing like this has ever happened before”, does not accurately reflect the historical temperature record.
All this is of course just my take on the data presented below. I’m interested in hearing from AGW proponents who have a good response to this. If you know one, please invite them to comment!
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/
The Intriguing Problem Of The Younger Dryas—What Does It Mean And What Caused It?
Anthony Watts https://wattsupwiththat.com/author/wattsupwiththat/ / June 19, 2012 https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/
This is a follow up posting to Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story! http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!
WUWT readers may recall this recent story: New evidence of Younger Dryas extraterrestrial impact The story below…
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/Guest post by Don J. Easterbrook
Dept. of Geology, Western Washington University.
The Younger Dryas was a period of rapid cooling in the late Pleistocene 12,800 to 11,500 calendar years ago. It followed closely on the heels of a dramatically abrupt warming that brought the last Ice Age to a close (17,500 calendar years ago), lasted for about 1,300 years, then ended as abruptly as it started. The cause of these remarkably sudden climate changes has puzzled geologists and climatologists for decades and despite much effort to find the answer, can still only be considered enigmatic.
The Younger Dryas interruption of the global warming that resulted in the abrupt, wholesale melting of the huge late Pleistocene ice sheets was first discovered in European pollen studies about 75 years ago. Terrestrial plants and pollen indicate that arboreal forests were replaced by tundra vegetation during a cool climate. This cool period was named after the pale yellow flower Dryas octopetella, an arctic wildflower typical of cold, open, Arctic environments. The Younger Dryas return to a cold, glacial climate was first considered to be a regional event restricted to Europe, but later studies have shown that it was a world-wide event. The problem became even more complicated when oxygen isotope data from ice cores in Antarctica and Greenland showed not only the Younger Dryas cooling, but several other shorter cooling/warming events, now known as Dansgaard-Oerscher events.
The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene. Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming 14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between ~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core suggests that Greenland was more than~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas occurred in only about 40 to 50 years.
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0021.jpg
Figure 1. Temperature fluctuations over the past 17,000 years showing the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas. The late Pleistocene cold glacial climate that built immense ice sheets terminated suddenly about 14,500 years ago (1), causing glaciers to melt dramatically. About 12,800 years ago, after about 2000 years of fluctuating climate (2-4), temperatures plunged suddenly (5) and remained cool for 1300 years (6). About 11,500 years ago, the climate again warmed suddenly and the Younger Dryas ended (7).Radiocarbon and cosmogenic dating of glacial moraines in regions all over the world and abrupt changes in oxygen isotope ratios in ice cores indicate that the Younger Dryas cooling was globally synchronous. Evidence of Younger Dryas advance of continental ice sheets is reported from the Scandinavian ice sheet, the Laurentide ice sheet in eastern North America, the Cordilleran ice sheet in western North America, and the Siberian ice sheet in Russia. Alpine and ice cap glaciers also responded to the abrupt Younger Dryas cooling in both the Northern and Southern hemispheres, e.g., many places in the Rocky Mts. of the U.S. and Canada, the Cascade Mts. of Washington, the European Alps, the Southern Alps of New Zealand, and the Andes Mts. in Patagonia of South America.
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0041.jpg
Figure 2. Temperature fluctuations over the past 15,000 years showing the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas and other warming and cooling periods, the Oldest Dryas (cool), Bölllng (warm), Older Dryas (cool), Allerød (warm), InterAllerød (cool), and Younger Dryas (cool).http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image006.jpg
Figure 3. Oxygen isotope record from the Greenland ice core showing an abrupt temperature drop 12,800 years ago, 1300 years of cool climate, and sudden warming 11,500 years ago.The Younger Dryas had multiple glacial advances and retreats
The Younger Dryas was not just a single climatic event. Late Pleistocene climatic warming and cooling not only occurred before and after the YD, but also within it. All three major Pleistocene ice sheets, the Scandinavian, Laurentide, and Cordilleran, experienced double moraine-building episodes, as did a large number of alpine glaciers. Multiple YD moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet have long been documented and a vast literature exists. The Scandinavian Ice Sheet readvanced during the YD and built two extensive end moraines across southern Finland, the central Swedish moraines, and the Ra moraines of southwestern Norway(Fig. 4). 14C dates indicate they were separated by about 500 years.
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image008.jpg
Figure 4. Double Younger Dryas moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet.Among the first multiple YD moraines to be recognized were the Loch Lomond moraines of the Scotish Highlands. Alpine glaciers and icefields in Britain readvanced or re-formed during the YD and built extensive moraines at the glacier margins. The largest YD icefield at this time was the Scotish Highland glacier complex, but smaller alpine glaciers occurred in the Hebrides and Cairngorms of Scotland, in the English Lake District, and in Ireland. The Loch Lomond moraines consist of multiple moraines. Radiocarbon dates constrain the age of the Loch Lomond moraines between 12.9 and 11.5 calendar years ago.
Multiple Younger Dryas moraines of alpine glaciers also occur throughout the world, e.g., the European Alps, the Rocky Mts., Alaska, the Cascade Range, the Andes, the New Zealand Alps, and elsewhere.
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image010.jpg
Figure 5. Double Younger Dryas moraines at Titcomb Lakes in the Wind River Range of Wyoming.Implications
The multiple nature of YD moraines in widely separated areas of the world and in both hemispheres indicates that the YD consisted of more than a single climatic event and these occurred virtually simultaneously worldwide. Both ice sheets and alpine glaciers were sensitive to the multiple YD phases. The GISP2 ice core shows two peaks within the YD that match the glacial record. The absence of a time lag between the N and S Hemispheres glacial fluctuations precludes an ocean cause and is not consistent with the North Atlantic Deep Ocean Water hypothesis for the cause of the Younger Dryas, nor with a cosmic impact or volcanic origin.
Both 14C and 10Be production rates in the upper atmosphere changed during the YD. 14C and 10Be are isotopes produced by collision of incoming radiation with atoms in the upper atmosphere. The change in their production rates means that the Younger Dryas was associated with changes in the amount of radiation entering the Earth’s atmosphere, leading to the intriguing possibility that the YD was caused by solar fluctuations.
Why the Younger Dryas is important
What can we learn from all this? The ice core isotope data were hugely significant because they showed that the Younger Dryas, as well as the other late Pleistocene warming and cooling events could not possibly have been caused by slow, Croll-Milankovitch orbital forcing, which occurs over many tens of thousands of years. The ice core isotope data thus essentially killed the Croll-Milankovitch theory as the cause of the Ice Ages.
In an attempt to save the Croll-Milankovitch theory, Broecker and Dention (1990) published a paper postulating that large amounts of fresh water discharged into the north Atlantic about 12,800 years ago when retreat of the Laurentide ice sheet allowed drainage of glacial Lake Agassiz to spill eastward into the Atlantic Ocean. They proposed that this large influx of fresh water might have stopped the formation of descending, higher-density water in the North Atlantic, thereby interrupting deep-water currents that distribute large amounts of heat globally and initiating a short-term return to glacial conditions. If indeed that was the case, then the Younger Dryas would have been initiated in the North Atlantic and propagated from there to the Southern Hemisphere and the rest of the world. Since that would take time, it means that the YD should be 400-1000 years younger in the Southern Hemisphere and Pacific areas than in the Northern Hemisphere. However, numerous radiocarbon and cosmogenic dates of the Younger Dryas all over the world indicate the cooling was globally synchronous. Thus, the North Atlantic deep current theory is not consistent with the chronology of the Younger Dryas.
The climatic fluctuations before and after the Younger Dryas, as well as the fluctuations within it, and the duration of these changes are not consistent with a single event cause of the YD. Neither cosmic impact or volcanic eruptions could produce the abrupt, multiple climatic changes that occurred during the late Pleistocene.
On Feb 19, 2025, at 8:21 PM, Brendan McMillion brendanmcmillion@gmail.com wrote:
Global average temperature for the past 2k years can be measured relatively accurately: Temperature record of the last 2,000 years - Wikipedia
You can see in the graph in this link that the temperature increase since 1850 is so dramatic that it is double any naturally-occurring temperature change in the past 2k years.Though there are also estimates of the global average temperature that go back 150k years: Analysis: Is it actually hotter now than any time in the last 100,000 years? | PBS News
In this scale, the past 150 years are a vertical tick. No other time in the past 150k years has the temperature increased so much so quickly. So there’s no empirical evidence of natural climate change this quick, or any natural cause that can realistically point to as an explanation.We know causally that increased co2 concentration in the atmosphere will increase global temperatures because of the greenhouse effect. And when you graph co2 concentration against global temperature, you see they correlate exactly: If carbon dioxide hits a new high every year, why isn’t every year hotter than the last? | NOAA Climate.gov
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:48 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
I try to keep an open mind about it, but am definitely on the skeptical side of the fence where the Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory is concerned. I’m always happy to discuss, but would encourage anyone wishing to do so to watch the full documentary, and don’t be put off by the inflammatory title and opening sequence – it makes a much better case than a cursory glance at those things would suggest.
I fully agree that the climate has been changing – for as long as the Earth has been around. If the causes of past swings of cooling and warming are not fully understood, which I don’t believe they are, I don’t think natural causes can be ruled out as the main drivers of recently observed climate change.
Pollution can indeed by seen as a form of trespass and violation of the Non-Aggression Principle, at least when it reaches a certain threshold. Like most things, it’s a matter of degree. A person exhaling carbon dioxide by breathing is adding CO2 to the atmosphere as surely as a smog-belching factory, just on a much smaller scale. I’m dubious of whether there’s any clear and simple application of property rights that could solve air pollution issues, as nice as it would be to have such a tidy libertarian solution.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 5:09 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Starchild
I’m happy to talk through any specific scientific arguments with respect to climate change that you’re interested in. I watched a few minutes of this documentary. So far it’s just made claims that climate change is some scheme to make money, or hinder the development of Africa. The fact is that climate change is human-caused and addressing it is urgent. I was honestly pretty shocked when you told me you didn’t believe this. Every year more and more people are dying or losing everything they have due to disasters directly linked to climate change. 2024 was the hottest year ever recorded since 1880. Before that, 2023 had been the hottest year to have ever been recorded. Significant portions of LA just burned in massive wildfires in winter.
Ironically, libertarians should be some of the strongest supporters of addressing climate change because we know tragedies of the commons can always be solved through robust property rights. You would never be allowed to dump your garbage on someone’s doorstep without consent; why is everyone allowed to dump their garbage into the air for free?
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:26 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Brendan,
Here’s the British documentary film about anthropogenic global warming (aka climate change) that I mentioned to you when we were hanging out yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
youtube.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQThe Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQIt’s from 2007, but still the most compelling explanation I’ve found of what’s really going on with temperature on Earth.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
I’ve never heard of the Younger Dryas but it’s wiki page is pretty clear
that it was a regional change in temperature. It happened primarily in
Greenland, to a lesser extent in Europe, to a lesser extent the northern
hemisphere. The given explanation for it is that there was a sudden change
in ocean currents. Which makes sense then why it isn’t reflected in global
average. There’s the same amount of total heat in the system, the ocean
currents just started moving it around differently.
This is the purpose of measuring global average temperature; it captures
the total amount of heat energy being retained by the atmosphere,
independent of exactly how it’s distributed. Excluding human activities,
there have not been similarly rapid changes in global atmosphere
composition / average temperature like you claim.
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 9:11 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:
Below is a message I posted to the LPSF list and others back in 2020 that
addresses this argument of unprecedented recent temperature rise. This
warming has not correlated well with human emissions of carbon dioxide and
other “greenhouse gases”. There are more details on this in the film:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
*From: *Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net
*Subject: *[bayareafaeries] Rapid, dramatic climate change the media are
ignoring?
*Date: *March 8, 2020 at 9:14:43 PM PDT
*To: *LPSF Discussion List lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Bay Area
Faeries bayareafaeries@groups.queernet.org, Bay Area Liberty <
ba-liberty@yahoogroups.com>, LibertarianHorizons@groups.io, SFBay
Cannabis Community List SFBayCannabisCommunity@yahoogroups.com,
CALibs@yahoogroups.com, LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com,
bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.comEarth’s climate has been changing as long as the planet has existed, and
the planet has been both colder and warmer at various times in the past
than it is now. Human activity played essentially zero role in most of
these changes, since they happened before the industrial era. These facts
are not controversial, but they tend to be downplayed in media discussions
of climate change and how it allegedly presents a serious threat to humans
and the planet.When I’ve pointed out this long history of “natural” (non-human-caused)
climate change to folks who believe the mainstream narrative that human
activity is causing major climatic change now and that this is a major
problem, a response I’ve often gotten is that this time is different
because climate change in the past has never been as rapid or dramatic as
it has recently. While that point seems to be taken more on faith than
on any particular knowledge of past temperature records, it has been
difficult to dispute because the temperature record of Earth’s climate
history is usually framed in long periods of geological time rather than
looking at what temperature changes occurred in a few brief decades.The article below, however, discusses scientific findings based on
studying the isotopes in Greenland ice core samples which show that some of
the global warming that took place thousands of years ago was more rapid
and dramatic* than recent global warming allegedly caused by humans*:“The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt
climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene.
Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming
14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into
rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between
~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the
beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt
climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most
precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core
stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland
Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because
the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by
the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate
chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement
of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core
suggests that Greenland was more than ~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas
and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas
occurred in only about 40 to 50. years.” [emphasis added]By way of comparison, advocates of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW)
theory (the idea that humans are responsible for global warming) are
predicting less warming than this over a longer time period even if
none of their recommendations to combat global warming are followed. The
International Energy Agency (IEA) recently predicted we’re “on track for
about 3 degrees Celsius of warming by 2100”, while the Intergovernmental
Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) predicts warming of about 4*° *Celsius by
2100 in its “worse case” scenario of coal use growing dramatically during
the 21st century – an outcome that many now view as unrealistic (see
Climate Change Worst-Case Scenario Now Looks Unrealistic
).Again, that’s 4° of warming over 80 years being predicted by AGW theory
proponents as the worst case scenario if humans continue to burn fossil
fuels without regard to climate change, versus 10**° of warming that
occurred historically over a 40 or 50 year period some 11,500 years ago –
if you trust the science.Also of note is the graph accompanying the story, which shows in dramatic
visual terms how insignificant recent warming is in comparison to this
historical warming.Now to be clear, the point is not that 3 or 4 degrees of global warming in
the next 80 years would not be disruptive. I’m sure it would be, to both
the environment and the economy. There might be good reasons to try to
tamper with Earth’s climate in order to prevent such a change.But this evidence of more rapid dramatic warming having occurred in the
past suggests that even if the Earth does get 3 or 4 degrees warmer by
2100, it would not herald irreversible doom as some alarmists would have us
believe. The science is telling us that the planet warmed more rapidly
in the past during a shorter time frame, and then temperatures
eventually more or less leveled out. Earth didn’t just continue to get
warmer and warmer in a self-perpetuating, out-of-control cycle.Another important thing to understand is that scientists aren’t sure
what caused the rapid warming that ended the Younger Dryas period. This
lack of understanding of “natural” causes of climate change suggests that
if whatever caused the rapid warming 11,500 years ago, also caused the
milder warming the Earth has experienced recently, we wouldn’t know.
The assumption that recent warming must be due to human activity
because “nothing like this has ever happened before”, does not accurately
reflect the historical temperature record.All this is of course just my take on the data presented below. I’m
interested in hearing from AGW proponents who have a good response to this.
If you know one, please invite them to comment!Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/
The Intriguing Problem Of The Younger Dryas—What Does It Mean And What
Caused It?
Anthony Watts https://wattsupwiththat.com/author/wattsupwiththat/ / June
19, 2012
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/This is a follow up posting to Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!
WUWT readers may recall this recent story: New evidence of Younger Dryas
extraterrestrial impact The story below…http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Guest post by Don J. Easterbrook
Dept. of Geology, Western Washington University.
The Younger Dryas was a period of rapid cooling in the late Pleistocene
12,800 to 11,500 calendar years ago. It followed closely on the heels of a
dramatically abrupt warming that brought the last Ice Age to a close
(17,500 calendar years ago), lasted for about 1,300 years, then ended as
abruptly as it started. The cause of these remarkably sudden climate
changes has puzzled geologists and climatologists for decades and despite
much effort to find the answer, can still only be considered enigmatic.The Younger Dryas interruption of the global warming that resulted in the
abrupt, wholesale melting of the huge late Pleistocene ice sheets was first
discovered in European pollen studies about 75 years ago. Terrestrial
plants and pollen indicate that arboreal forests were replaced by tundra
vegetation during a cool climate. This cool period was named after the pale
yellow flower Dryas octopetella, an arctic wildflower typical of cold,
open, Arctic environments. The Younger Dryas return to a cold, glacial
climate was first considered to be a regional event restricted to Europe,
but later studies have shown that it was a world-wide event. The problem
became even more complicated when oxygen isotope data from ice cores in
Antarctica and Greenland showed not only the Younger Dryas cooling, but
several other shorter cooling/warming events, now known as
Dansgaard-Oerscher events.The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt
climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene.
Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming
14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into
rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between
~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the
beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic
warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise
record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core
stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland
Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because
the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by
the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate
chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement
of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core
suggests that Greenland was more than~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas
and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas
occurred in only about 40 to 50 years.
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0021.jpgFigure 1. Temperature fluctuations over the past 17,000 years showing the
abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas. The late Pleistocene cold glacial
climate that built immense ice sheets terminated suddenly about 14,500
years ago (1), causing glaciers to melt dramatically. About 12,800 years
ago, after about 2000 years of fluctuating climate (2-4), temperatures
plunged suddenly (5) and remained cool for 1300 years (6). About 11,500
years ago, the climate again warmed suddenly and the Younger Dryas ended
(7).Radiocarbon and cosmogenic dating of glacial moraines in regions all over
the world and abrupt changes in oxygen isotope ratios in ice cores indicate
that the Younger Dryas cooling was globally synchronous. Evidence of
Younger Dryas advance of continental ice sheets is reported from the
Scandinavian ice sheet, the Laurentide ice sheet in eastern North America,
the Cordilleran ice sheet in western North America, and the Siberian ice
sheet in Russia. Alpine and ice cap glaciers also responded to the abrupt
Younger Dryas cooling in both the Northern and Southern hemispheres, e.g.,
many places in the Rocky Mts. of the U.S. and Canada, the Cascade Mts. of
Washington, the European Alps, the Southern Alps of New Zealand, and the
Andes Mts. in Patagonia of South America.
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0041.jpgFigure 2. Temperature fluctuations over the past 15,000 years showing the
abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas and other warming and cooling
periods, the Oldest Dryas (cool), Bölllng (warm), Older Dryas (cool),
Allerød (warm), InterAllerød (cool), and Younger Dryas (cool).
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image006.jpgFigure 3. Oxygen isotope record from the Greenland ice core showing an
abrupt temperature drop 12,800 years ago, 1300 years of cool climate, and
sudden warming 11,500 years ago.The Younger Dryas had multiple glacial advances and retreats
The Younger Dryas was not just a single climatic event. Late Pleistocene
climatic warming and cooling not only occurred before and after the YD, but
also within it. All three major Pleistocene ice sheets, the Scandinavian,
Laurentide, and Cordilleran, experienced double moraine-building episodes,
as did a large number of alpine glaciers. Multiple YD moraines of the
Scandinavian Ice Sheet have long been documented and a vast literature
exists. The Scandinavian Ice Sheet readvanced during the YD and built two
extensive end moraines across southern Finland, the central Swedish
moraines, and the Ra moraines of southwestern Norway(Fig. 4). 14C dates
indicate they were separated by about 500 years.
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image008.jpgFigure 4. Double Younger Dryas moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet.
Among the first multiple YD moraines to be recognized were the Loch Lomond
moraines of the Scotish Highlands. Alpine glaciers and icefields in Britain
readvanced or re-formed during the YD and built extensive moraines at the
glacier margins. The largest YD icefield at this time was the Scotish
Highland glacier complex, but smaller alpine glaciers occurred in the
Hebrides and Cairngorms of Scotland, in the English Lake District, and in
Ireland. The Loch Lomond moraines consist of multiple moraines. Radiocarbon
dates constrain the age of the Loch Lomond moraines between 12.9 and 11.5
calendar years ago.Multiple Younger Dryas moraines of alpine glaciers also occur throughout
the world, e.g., the European Alps, the Rocky Mts., Alaska, the Cascade
Range, the Andes, the New Zealand Alps, and elsewhere.
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image010.jpgFigure 5. Double Younger Dryas moraines at Titcomb Lakes in the Wind
River Range of Wyoming.Implications
The multiple nature of YD moraines in widely separated areas of the world
and in both hemispheres indicates that the YD consisted of more than a
single climatic event and these occurred virtually simultaneously
worldwide. Both ice sheets and alpine glaciers were sensitive to the
multiple YD phases. The GISP2 ice core shows two peaks within the YD that
match the glacial record. The absence of a time lag between the N and S
Hemispheres glacial fluctuations precludes an ocean cause and is not
consistent with the North Atlantic Deep Ocean Water hypothesis for the
cause of the Younger Dryas, nor with a cosmic impact or volcanic origin.Both 14C and 10Be production rates in the upper atmosphere changed during
the YD. 14C and 10Be are isotopes produced by collision of incoming
radiation with atoms in the upper atmosphere. The change in their
production rates means that the Younger Dryas was associated with changes
in the amount of radiation entering the Earth’s atmosphere, leading to the
intriguing possibility that the YD was caused by solar fluctuations.Why the Younger Dryas is important
What can we learn from all this? The ice core isotope data were hugely
significant because they showed that the Younger Dryas, as well as the
other late Pleistocene warming and cooling events could not possibly have
been caused by slow, Croll-Milankovitch orbital forcing, which occurs over
many tens of thousands of years. The ice core isotope data thus essentially
killed the Croll-Milankovitch theory as the cause of the Ice Ages.In an attempt to save the Croll-Milankovitch theory, Broecker and Dention
(1990) published a paper postulating that large amounts of fresh water
discharged into the north Atlantic about 12,800 years ago when retreat of
the Laurentide ice sheet allowed drainage of glacial Lake Agassiz to spill
eastward into the Atlantic Ocean. They proposed that this large influx of
fresh water might have stopped the formation of descending, higher-density
water in the North Atlantic, thereby interrupting deep-water currents that
distribute large amounts of heat globally and initiating a short-term
return to glacial conditions. If indeed that was the case, then the Younger
Dryas would have been initiated in the North Atlantic and propagated from
there to the Southern Hemisphere and the rest of the world. Since that
would take time, it means that the YD should be 400-1000 years younger in
the Southern Hemisphere and Pacific areas than in the Northern Hemisphere.
However, numerous radiocarbon and cosmogenic dates of the Younger Dryas all
over the world indicate the cooling was globally synchronous. Thus, the
North Atlantic deep current theory is not consistent with the chronology of
the Younger Dryas.
The climatic fluctuations before and after the Younger Dryas, as well as
the fluctuations within it, and the duration of these changes are not
consistent with a single event cause of the YD. Neither cosmic impact or
volcanic eruptions could produce the abrupt, multiple climatic changes that
occurred during the late Pleistocene.On Feb 19, 2025, at 8:21 PM, Brendan McMillion brendanmcmillion@gmail.com > wrote:
Global average temperature for the past 2k years can be measured
relatively accurately:
Temperature record of the last 2,000 years - Wikipedia
You can see in the graph in this link that the temperature increase since
1850 is so dramatic that it is double any naturally-occurring temperature
change in the past 2k years.Though there are also estimates of the global average temperature that go
back 150k years:
Analysis: Is it actually hotter now than any time in the last 100,000 years? | PBS News
In this scale, the past 150 years are a vertical tick. No other time in
the past 150k years has the temperature increased so much so quickly. So
there’s no empirical evidence of natural climate change this quick, or any
natural cause that can realistically point to as an explanation.We know causally that increased co2 concentration in the atmosphere will
increase global temperatures because of the greenhouse effect. And when you
graph co2 concentration against global temperature, you see they correlate
exactly:
If carbon dioxide hits a new high every year, why isn’t every year hotter than the last? | NOAA Climate.govOn Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:48 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:
I try to keep an open mind about it, but am definitely on the skeptical
side of the fence where the Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory is
concerned. I’m always happy to discuss, but would encourage anyone wishing
to do so to watch the full documentary, and don’t be put off by the
inflammatory title and opening sequence – it makes a much better case than
a cursory glance at those things would suggest.I fully agree that the climate has been changing – for as long as the
Earth has been around. If the causes of past swings of cooling and warming
are not fully understood, which I don’t believe they are, I don’t think
natural causes can be ruled out as the main drivers of recently observed
climate change.Pollution can indeed by seen as a form of trespass and violation of the
Non-Aggression Principle, at least when it reaches a certain threshold.
Like most things, it’s a matter of degree. A person exhaling carbon dioxide
by breathing is adding CO2 to the atmosphere as surely as a smog-belching
factory, just on a much smaller scale. I’m dubious of whether there’s any
clear and simple application of property rights that could solve air
pollution issues, as nice as it would be to have such a tidy libertarian
solution.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 5:09 PM, Brendan McMillion < >> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Starchild
I’m happy to talk through any specific scientific arguments with respect
to climate change that you’re interested in. I watched a few minutes of
this documentary. So far it’s just made claims that climate change is some
scheme to make money, or hinder the development of Africa. The fact is that
climate change is human-caused and addressing it is urgent. I was honestly
pretty shocked when you told me you didn’t believe this. Every year more
and more people are dying or losing everything they have due to disasters
directly linked to climate change. 2024 was the hottest year ever recorded
since 1880. Before that, 2023 had been the hottest year to have ever been
recorded. Significant portions of LA just burned in massive wildfires in
winter.Ironically, libertarians should be some of the strongest supporters of
addressing climate change because we know tragedies of the commons can
always be solved through robust property rights. You would never be allowed
to dump your garbage on someone’s doorstep without consent; why is everyone
allowed to dump their garbage into the air for free?On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:26 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >> wrote:
Brendan,
Here’s the British documentary film about anthropogenic global warming
(aka climate change) that I mentioned to you when we were hanging out
yesterday:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQIt’s from 2007, but still the most compelling explanation I’ve found of
what’s really going on with temperature on Earth.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Are you sure that recent warming has been uniformly worldwide? I’m by no means certain of that. This report for instance notes that weather stations in eastern Antarctica – a vast area the size of the United States – show temperatures getting colder, not warmer, over the past few decades:
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 9:46 PM, Brendan McMillion brendanmcmillion@gmail.com wrote:
I’ve never heard of the Younger Dryas but it’s wiki page is pretty clear that it was a regional change in temperature. It happened primarily in Greenland, to a lesser extent in Europe, to a lesser extent the northern hemisphere. The given explanation for it is that there was a sudden change in ocean currents. Which makes sense then why it isn’t reflected in global average. There’s the same amount of total heat in the system, the ocean currents just started moving it around differently.
This is the purpose of measuring global average temperature; it captures the total amount of heat energy being retained by the atmosphere, independent of exactly how it’s distributed. Excluding human activities, there have not been similarly rapid changes in global atmosphere composition / average temperature like you claim.
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 9:11 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Below is a message I posted to the LPSF list and others back in 2020 that addresses this argument of unprecedented recent temperature rise. This warming has not correlated well with human emissions of carbon dioxide and other “greenhouse gases”. There are more details on this in the film:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
youtube.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQThe Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
From: Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net>
Subject: [bayareafaeries] Rapid, dramatic climate change the media are ignoring?
Date: March 8, 2020 at 9:14:43 PM PDT
To: LPSF Discussion List <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>, Bay Area Faeries <bayareafaeries@groups.queernet.org mailto:bayareafaeries@groups.queernet.org>, Bay Area Liberty <ba-liberty@yahoogroups.com mailto:ba-liberty@yahoogroups.com>, LibertarianHorizons@groups.io mailto:LibertarianHorizons@groups.io, SFBay Cannabis Community List <SFBayCannabisCommunity@yahoogroups.com mailto:SFBayCannabisCommunity@yahoogroups.com>, CALibs@yahoogroups.com mailto:CALibs@yahoogroups.com, LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com mailto:LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com, bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com mailto:bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.comEarth’s climate has been changing as long as the planet has existed, and the planet has been both colder and warmer at various times in the past than it is now. Human activity played essentially zero role in most of these changes, since they happened before the industrial era. These facts are not controversial, but they tend to be downplayed in media discussions of climate change and how it allegedly presents a serious threat to humans and the planet.
When I’ve pointed out this long history of “natural” (non-human-caused) climate change to folks who believe the mainstream narrative that human activity is causing major climatic change now and that this is a major problem, a response I’ve often gotten is that this time is different because climate change in the past has never been as rapid or dramatic as it has recently. While that point seems to be taken more on faith than on any particular knowledge of past temperature records, it has been difficult to dispute because the temperature record of Earth’s climate history is usually framed in long periods of geological time rather than looking at what temperature changes occurred in a few brief decades.
The article below, however, discusses scientific findings based on studying the isotopes in Greenland ice core samples which show that some of the global warming that took place thousands of years ago was more rapid and dramatic than recent global warming allegedly caused by humans:
“The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene. Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming 14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between ~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core suggests that Greenland was more than ~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas occurred in only about 40 to 50. years.” [emphasis added]
By way of comparison, advocates of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory (the idea that humans are responsible for global warming) are predicting less warming than this over a longer time period even if none of their recommendations to combat global warming are followed. The International Energy Agency (IEA) recently predicted we’re “on track for about 3 degrees Celsius of warming by 2100”, while the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) predicts warming of about 4° Celsius by 2100 in its “worse case” scenario of coal use growing dramatically during the 21st century – an outcome that many now view as unrealistic (see Climate Change Worst-Case Scenario Now Looks Unrealistic).
Again, that’s 4° of warming over 80 years being predicted by AGW theory proponents as the worst case scenario if humans continue to burn fossil fuels without regard to climate change, versus 10° of warming that occurred historically over a 40 or 50 year period some 11,500 years ago – if you trust the science.
Also of note is the graph accompanying the story, which shows in dramatic visual terms how insignificant recent warming is in comparison to this historical warming.
Now to be clear, the point is not that 3 or 4 degrees of global warming in the next 80 years would not be disruptive. I’m sure it would be, to both the environment and the economy. There might be good reasons to try to tamper with Earth’s climate in order to prevent such a change.
But this evidence of more rapid dramatic warming having occurred in the past suggests that even if the Earth does get 3 or 4 degrees warmer by 2100, it would not herald irreversible doom as some alarmists would have us believe. The science is telling us that the planet warmed more rapidly in the past during a shorter time frame, and then temperatures eventually more or less leveled out. Earth didn’t just continue to get warmer and warmer in a self-perpetuating, out-of-control cycle.
Another important thing to understand is that scientists aren’t sure what caused the rapid warming that ended the Younger Dryas period. This lack of understanding of “natural” causes of climate change suggests that if whatever caused the rapid warming 11,500 years ago, also caused the milder warming the Earth has experienced recently, we wouldn’t know. The assumption that recent warming must be due to human activity because “nothing like this has ever happened before”, does not accurately reflect the historical temperature record.
All this is of course just my take on the data presented below. I’m interested in hearing from AGW proponents who have a good response to this. If you know one, please invite them to comment!
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/
The Intriguing Problem Of The Younger Dryas—What Does It Mean And What Caused It?
Anthony Watts https://wattsupwiththat.com/author/wattsupwiththat/ / June 19, 2012 https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/
This is a follow up posting to Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story! http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!
WUWT readers may recall this recent story: New evidence of Younger Dryas extraterrestrial impact The story below…
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/Guest post by Don J. Easterbrook
Dept. of Geology, Western Washington University.
The Younger Dryas was a period of rapid cooling in the late Pleistocene 12,800 to 11,500 calendar years ago. It followed closely on the heels of a dramatically abrupt warming that brought the last Ice Age to a close (17,500 calendar years ago), lasted for about 1,300 years, then ended as abruptly as it started. The cause of these remarkably sudden climate changes has puzzled geologists and climatologists for decades and despite much effort to find the answer, can still only be considered enigmatic.
The Younger Dryas interruption of the global warming that resulted in the abrupt, wholesale melting of the huge late Pleistocene ice sheets was first discovered in European pollen studies about 75 years ago. Terrestrial plants and pollen indicate that arboreal forests were replaced by tundra vegetation during a cool climate. This cool period was named after the pale yellow flower Dryas octopetella, an arctic wildflower typical of cold, open, Arctic environments. The Younger Dryas return to a cold, glacial climate was first considered to be a regional event restricted to Europe, but later studies have shown that it was a world-wide event. The problem became even more complicated when oxygen isotope data from ice cores in Antarctica and Greenland showed not only the Younger Dryas cooling, but several other shorter cooling/warming events, now known as Dansgaard-Oerscher events.
The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene. Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming 14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between ~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core suggests that Greenland was more than~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas occurred in only about 40 to 50 years.
<clip_image002.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0021.jpg
Figure 1. Temperature fluctuations over the past 17,000 years showing the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas. The late Pleistocene cold glacial climate that built immense ice sheets terminated suddenly about 14,500 years ago (1), causing glaciers to melt dramatically. About 12,800 years ago, after about 2000 years of fluctuating climate (2-4), temperatures plunged suddenly (5) and remained cool for 1300 years (6). About 11,500 years ago, the climate again warmed suddenly and the Younger Dryas ended (7).Radiocarbon and cosmogenic dating of glacial moraines in regions all over the world and abrupt changes in oxygen isotope ratios in ice cores indicate that the Younger Dryas cooling was globally synchronous. Evidence of Younger Dryas advance of continental ice sheets is reported from the Scandinavian ice sheet, the Laurentide ice sheet in eastern North America, the Cordilleran ice sheet in western North America, and the Siberian ice sheet in Russia. Alpine and ice cap glaciers also responded to the abrupt Younger Dryas cooling in both the Northern and Southern hemispheres, e.g., many places in the Rocky Mts. of the U.S. and Canada, the Cascade Mts. of Washington, the European Alps, the Southern Alps of New Zealand, and the Andes Mts. in Patagonia of South America.
<clip_image004.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0041.jpg
Figure 2. Temperature fluctuations over the past 15,000 years showing the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas and other warming and cooling periods, the Oldest Dryas (cool), Bölllng (warm), Older Dryas (cool), Allerød (warm), InterAllerød (cool), and Younger Dryas (cool).<clip_image006.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image006.jpg
Figure 3. Oxygen isotope record from the Greenland ice core showing an abrupt temperature drop 12,800 years ago, 1300 years of cool climate, and sudden warming 11,500 years ago.The Younger Dryas had multiple glacial advances and retreats
The Younger Dryas was not just a single climatic event. Late Pleistocene climatic warming and cooling not only occurred before and after the YD, but also within it. All three major Pleistocene ice sheets, the Scandinavian, Laurentide, and Cordilleran, experienced double moraine-building episodes, as did a large number of alpine glaciers. Multiple YD moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet have long been documented and a vast literature exists. The Scandinavian Ice Sheet readvanced during the YD and built two extensive end moraines across southern Finland, the central Swedish moraines, and the Ra moraines of southwestern Norway(Fig. 4). 14C dates indicate they were separated by about 500 years.
<clip_image008.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image008.jpg
Figure 4. Double Younger Dryas moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet.Among the first multiple YD moraines to be recognized were the Loch Lomond moraines of the Scotish Highlands. Alpine glaciers and icefields in Britain readvanced or re-formed during the YD and built extensive moraines at the glacier margins. The largest YD icefield at this time was the Scotish Highland glacier complex, but smaller alpine glaciers occurred in the Hebrides and Cairngorms of Scotland, in the English Lake District, and in Ireland. The Loch Lomond moraines consist of multiple moraines. Radiocarbon dates constrain the age of the Loch Lomond moraines between 12.9 and 11.5 calendar years ago.
Multiple Younger Dryas moraines of alpine glaciers also occur throughout the world, e.g., the European Alps, the Rocky Mts., Alaska, the Cascade Range, the Andes, the New Zealand Alps, and elsewhere.
<clip_image010.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image010.jpg
Figure 5. Double Younger Dryas moraines at Titcomb Lakes in the Wind River Range of Wyoming.Implications
The multiple nature of YD moraines in widely separated areas of the world and in both hemispheres indicates that the YD consisted of more than a single climatic event and these occurred virtually simultaneously worldwide. Both ice sheets and alpine glaciers were sensitive to the multiple YD phases. The GISP2 ice core shows two peaks within the YD that match the glacial record. The absence of a time lag between the N and S Hemispheres glacial fluctuations precludes an ocean cause and is not consistent with the North Atlantic Deep Ocean Water hypothesis for the cause of the Younger Dryas, nor with a cosmic impact or volcanic origin.
Both 14C and 10Be production rates in the upper atmosphere changed during the YD. 14C and 10Be are isotopes produced by collision of incoming radiation with atoms in the upper atmosphere. The change in their production rates means that the Younger Dryas was associated with changes in the amount of radiation entering the Earth’s atmosphere, leading to the intriguing possibility that the YD was caused by solar fluctuations.
Why the Younger Dryas is important
What can we learn from all this? The ice core isotope data were hugely significant because they showed that the Younger Dryas, as well as the other late Pleistocene warming and cooling events could not possibly have been caused by slow, Croll-Milankovitch orbital forcing, which occurs over many tens of thousands of years. The ice core isotope data thus essentially killed the Croll-Milankovitch theory as the cause of the Ice Ages.
In an attempt to save the Croll-Milankovitch theory, Broecker and Dention (1990) published a paper postulating that large amounts of fresh water discharged into the north Atlantic about 12,800 years ago when retreat of the Laurentide ice sheet allowed drainage of glacial Lake Agassiz to spill eastward into the Atlantic Ocean. They proposed that this large influx of fresh water might have stopped the formation of descending, higher-density water in the North Atlantic, thereby interrupting deep-water currents that distribute large amounts of heat globally and initiating a short-term return to glacial conditions. If indeed that was the case, then the Younger Dryas would have been initiated in the North Atlantic and propagated from there to the Southern Hemisphere and the rest of the world. Since that would take time, it means that the YD should be 400-1000 years younger in the Southern Hemisphere and Pacific areas than in the Northern Hemisphere. However, numerous radiocarbon and cosmogenic dates of the Younger Dryas all over the world indicate the cooling was globally synchronous. Thus, the North Atlantic deep current theory is not consistent with the chronology of the Younger Dryas.
The climatic fluctuations before and after the Younger Dryas, as well as the fluctuations within it, and the duration of these changes are not consistent with a single event cause of the YD. Neither cosmic impact or volcanic eruptions could produce the abrupt, multiple climatic changes that occurred during the late Pleistocene.
On Feb 19, 2025, at 8:21 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Global average temperature for the past 2k years can be measured relatively accurately: Temperature record of the last 2,000 years - Wikipedia
You can see in the graph in this link that the temperature increase since 1850 is so dramatic that it is double any naturally-occurring temperature change in the past 2k years.Though there are also estimates of the global average temperature that go back 150k years: Analysis: Is it actually hotter now than any time in the last 100,000 years? | PBS News
In this scale, the past 150 years are a vertical tick. No other time in the past 150k years has the temperature increased so much so quickly. So there’s no empirical evidence of natural climate change this quick, or any natural cause that can realistically point to as an explanation.We know causally that increased co2 concentration in the atmosphere will increase global temperatures because of the greenhouse effect. And when you graph co2 concentration against global temperature, you see they correlate exactly: If carbon dioxide hits a new high every year, why isn’t every year hotter than the last? | NOAA Climate.gov
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:48 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
I try to keep an open mind about it, but am definitely on the skeptical side of the fence where the Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory is concerned. I’m always happy to discuss, but would encourage anyone wishing to do so to watch the full documentary, and don’t be put off by the inflammatory title and opening sequence – it makes a much better case than a cursory glance at those things would suggest.
I fully agree that the climate has been changing – for as long as the Earth has been around. If the causes of past swings of cooling and warming are not fully understood, which I don’t believe they are, I don’t think natural causes can be ruled out as the main drivers of recently observed climate change.
Pollution can indeed by seen as a form of trespass and violation of the Non-Aggression Principle, at least when it reaches a certain threshold. Like most things, it’s a matter of degree. A person exhaling carbon dioxide by breathing is adding CO2 to the atmosphere as surely as a smog-belching factory, just on a much smaller scale. I’m dubious of whether there’s any clear and simple application of property rights that could solve air pollution issues, as nice as it would be to have such a tidy libertarian solution.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 5:09 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Starchild
I’m happy to talk through any specific scientific arguments with respect to climate change that you’re interested in. I watched a few minutes of this documentary. So far it’s just made claims that climate change is some scheme to make money, or hinder the development of Africa. The fact is that climate change is human-caused and addressing it is urgent. I was honestly pretty shocked when you told me you didn’t believe this. Every year more and more people are dying or losing everything they have due to disasters directly linked to climate change. 2024 was the hottest year ever recorded since 1880. Before that, 2023 had been the hottest year to have ever been recorded. Significant portions of LA just burned in massive wildfires in winter.
Ironically, libertarians should be some of the strongest supporters of addressing climate change because we know tragedies of the commons can always be solved through robust property rights. You would never be allowed to dump your garbage on someone’s doorstep without consent; why is everyone allowed to dump their garbage into the air for free?
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:26 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Brendan,
Here’s the British documentary film about anthropogenic global warming (aka climate change) that I mentioned to you when we were hanging out yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
youtube.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQThe Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQIt’s from 2007, but still the most compelling explanation I’ve found of what’s really going on with temperature on Earth.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Nobody has claimed that warming is uniform or global. The claim is that
global average temperature is increasing. Different regions of the world
are in fact warming at different rates. However all three of the links from
my second email have graphs explicitly labeled as measuring global average.
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:38 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:
Are you sure that recent warming has been uniformly worldwide? I’m by no
means certain of that. This report for instance notes that weather stations
in eastern Antarctica – a vast area the size of the United States – show
temperatures getting colder, not warmer, over the past few decades:NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4 Decades…Cooling Trend
NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4
Decades…Cooling Trend
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
notrickszone.com
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trendLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 9:46 PM, Brendan McMillion brendanmcmillion@gmail.com > wrote:
I’ve never heard of the Younger Dryas but it’s wiki page is pretty clear
that it was a regional change in temperature. It happened primarily in
Greenland, to a lesser extent in Europe, to a lesser extent the northern
hemisphere. The given explanation for it is that there was a sudden change
in ocean currents. Which makes sense then why it isn’t reflected in global
average. There’s the same amount of total heat in the system, the ocean
currents just started moving it around differently.This is the purpose of measuring global average temperature; it captures
the total amount of heat energy being retained by the atmosphere,
independent of exactly how it’s distributed. Excluding human activities,
there have not been similarly rapid changes in global atmosphere
composition / average temperature like you claim.On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 9:11 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:
Below is a message I posted to the LPSF list and others back in 2020 that
addresses this argument of unprecedented recent temperature rise. This
warming has not correlated well with human emissions of carbon dioxide and
other “greenhouse gases”. There are more details on this in the film:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
*From: *Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net
*Subject: *[bayareafaeries] Rapid, dramatic climate change the media
are ignoring?
*Date: *March 8, 2020 at 9:14:43 PM PDT
*To: *LPSF Discussion List lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Bay Area
Faeries bayareafaeries@groups.queernet.org, Bay Area Liberty <
ba-liberty@yahoogroups.com>, LibertarianHorizons@groups.io, SFBay
Cannabis Community List SFBayCannabisCommunity@yahoogroups.com,
CALibs@yahoogroups.com, LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com,
bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.comEarth’s climate has been changing as long as the planet has existed, and
the planet has been both colder and warmer at various times in the past
than it is now. Human activity played essentially zero role in most of
these changes, since they happened before the industrial era. These facts
are not controversial, but they tend to be downplayed in media discussions
of climate change and how it allegedly presents a serious threat to humans
and the planet.When I’ve pointed out this long history of “natural” (non-human-caused)
climate change to folks who believe the mainstream narrative that human
activity is causing major climatic change now and that this is a major
problem, a response I’ve often gotten is that this time is different
because climate change in the past has never been as rapid or dramatic as
it has recently. While that point seems to be taken more on faith than
on any particular knowledge of past temperature records, it has been
difficult to dispute because the temperature record of Earth’s climate
history is usually framed in long periods of geological time rather than
looking at what temperature changes occurred in a few brief decades.The article below, however, discusses scientific findings based on
studying the isotopes in Greenland ice core samples which show that some of
the global warming that took place thousands of years ago was more
rapid and dramatic* than recent global warming allegedly caused by
humans*:“The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt
climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene.
Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming
14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into
rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between
~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the
beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt
climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most
precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core
stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland
Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because
the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by
the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate
chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement
of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice
core suggests that Greenland was more than ~10°C colder during the Younger
Dryas and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas
occurred in only about 40 to 50. years.” [emphasis added]By way of comparison, advocates of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW)
theory (the idea that humans are responsible for global warming) are
predicting less warming than this over a longer time period even if
none of their recommendations to combat global warming are followed. The
International Energy Agency (IEA) recently predicted we’re “on track for
about 3 degrees Celsius of warming by 2100”, while the Intergovernmental
Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) predicts warming of about 4*° *Celsius
by 2100 in its “worse case” scenario of coal use growing dramatically
during the 21st century – an outcome that many now view as unrealistic
(see
Climate Change Worst-Case Scenario Now Looks Unrealistic
).Again, that’s 4° of warming over 80 years being predicted by AGW theory
proponents as the worst case scenario if humans continue to burn fossil
fuels without regard to climate change, versus 10**° of warming that
occurred historically over a 40 or 50 year period some 11,500 years ago –
if you trust the science.Also of note is the graph accompanying the story, which shows in dramatic
visual terms how insignificant recent warming is in comparison to this
historical warming.Now to be clear, the point is not that 3 or 4 degrees of global warming
in the next 80 years would not be disruptive. I’m sure it would be, to both
the environment and the economy. There might be good reasons to try to
tamper with Earth’s climate in order to prevent such a change.But this evidence of more rapid dramatic warming having occurred in the
past suggests that even if the Earth does get 3 or 4 degrees warmer by
2100, it would not herald irreversible doom as some alarmists would have us
believe. The science is telling us that the planet warmed more rapidly
in the past during a shorter time frame, and then temperatures
eventually more or less leveled out. Earth didn’t just continue to get
warmer and warmer in a self-perpetuating, out-of-control cycle.Another important thing to understand is that scientists aren’t sure
what caused the rapid warming that ended the Younger Dryas period. This
lack of understanding of “natural” causes of climate change suggests that
if whatever caused the rapid warming 11,500 years ago, also caused the
milder warming the Earth has experienced recently, we wouldn’t know.
The assumption that recent warming must be due to human activity
because “nothing like this has ever happened before”, does not accurately
reflect the historical temperature record.All this is of course just my take on the data presented below. I’m
interested in hearing from AGW proponents who have a good response to this.
If you know one, please invite them to comment!Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
The Intriguing Problem Of The Younger Dryas—What Does It Mean And What
Caused It?
Anthony Watts https://wattsupwiththat.com/author/wattsupwiththat/ / June
19, 2012
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/This is a follow up posting to Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!WUWT readers may recall this recent story: New evidence of Younger Dryas
extraterrestrial impact The story below…http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Guest post by Don J. Easterbrook
Dept. of Geology, Western Washington University.
The Younger Dryas was a period of rapid cooling in the late Pleistocene
12,800 to 11,500 calendar years ago. It followed closely on the heels of a
dramatically abrupt warming that brought the last Ice Age to a close
(17,500 calendar years ago), lasted for about 1,300 years, then ended as
abruptly as it started. The cause of these remarkably sudden climate
changes has puzzled geologists and climatologists for decades and despite
much effort to find the answer, can still only be considered enigmatic.The Younger Dryas interruption of the global warming that resulted in the
abrupt, wholesale melting of the huge late Pleistocene ice sheets was first
discovered in European pollen studies about 75 years ago. Terrestrial
plants and pollen indicate that arboreal forests were replaced by tundra
vegetation during a cool climate. This cool period was named after the pale
yellow flower Dryas octopetella, an arctic wildflower typical of cold,
open, Arctic environments. The Younger Dryas return to a cold, glacial
climate was first considered to be a regional event restricted to Europe,
but later studies have shown that it was a world-wide event. The problem
became even more complicated when oxygen isotope data from ice cores in
Antarctica and Greenland showed not only the Younger Dryas cooling, but
several other shorter cooling/warming events, now known as
Dansgaard-Oerscher events.The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt
climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene.
Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming
14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into
rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between
~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the
beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic
warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise
record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core
stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland
Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because
the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by
the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate
chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement
of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core
suggests that Greenland was more than~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas
and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas
occurred in only about 40 to 50 years.<clip_image002.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0021.jpgFigure 1. Temperature fluctuations over the past 17,000 years showing
the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas. The late Pleistocene cold
glacial climate that built immense ice sheets terminated suddenly about
14,500 years ago (1), causing glaciers to melt dramatically. About 12,800
years ago, after about 2000 years of fluctuating climate (2-4),
temperatures plunged suddenly (5) and remained cool for 1300 years (6).
About 11,500 years ago, the climate again warmed suddenly and the Younger
Dryas ended (7).Radiocarbon and cosmogenic dating of glacial moraines in regions all over
the world and abrupt changes in oxygen isotope ratios in ice cores indicate
that the Younger Dryas cooling was globally synchronous. Evidence of
Younger Dryas advance of continental ice sheets is reported from the
Scandinavian ice sheet, the Laurentide ice sheet in eastern North America,
the Cordilleran ice sheet in western North America, and the Siberian ice
sheet in Russia. Alpine and ice cap glaciers also responded to the abrupt
Younger Dryas cooling in both the Northern and Southern hemispheres, e.g.,
many places in the Rocky Mts. of the U.S. and Canada, the Cascade Mts. of
Washington, the European Alps, the Southern Alps of New Zealand, and the
Andes Mts. in Patagonia of South America.<clip_image004.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0041.jpgFigure 2. Temperature fluctuations over the past 15,000 years showing
the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas and other warming and cooling
periods, the Oldest Dryas (cool), Bölllng (warm), Older Dryas (cool),
Allerød (warm), InterAllerød (cool), and Younger Dryas (cool).<clip_image006.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image006.jpgFigure 3. Oxygen isotope record from the Greenland ice core showing an
abrupt temperature drop 12,800 years ago, 1300 years of cool climate, and
sudden warming 11,500 years ago.The Younger Dryas had multiple glacial advances and retreats
The Younger Dryas was not just a single climatic event. Late Pleistocene
climatic warming and cooling not only occurred before and after the YD, but
also within it. All three major Pleistocene ice sheets, the Scandinavian,
Laurentide, and Cordilleran, experienced double moraine-building episodes,
as did a large number of alpine glaciers. Multiple YD moraines of the
Scandinavian Ice Sheet have long been documented and a vast literature
exists. The Scandinavian Ice Sheet readvanced during the YD and built two
extensive end moraines across southern Finland, the central Swedish
moraines, and the Ra moraines of southwestern Norway(Fig. 4). 14C dates
indicate they were separated by about 500 years.<clip_image008.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image008.jpgFigure 4. Double Younger Dryas moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet.
Among the first multiple YD moraines to be recognized were the Loch
Lomond moraines of the Scotish Highlands. Alpine glaciers and icefields in
Britain readvanced or re-formed during the YD and built extensive moraines
at the glacier margins. The largest YD icefield at this time was the
Scotish Highland glacier complex, but smaller alpine glaciers occurred in
the Hebrides and Cairngorms of Scotland, in the English Lake District, and
in Ireland. The Loch Lomond moraines consist of multiple moraines.
Radiocarbon dates constrain the age of the Loch Lomond moraines between
12.9 and 11.5 calendar years ago.Multiple Younger Dryas moraines of alpine glaciers also occur throughout
the world, e.g., the European Alps, the Rocky Mts., Alaska, the Cascade
Range, the Andes, the New Zealand Alps, and elsewhere.<clip_image010.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image010.jpgFigure 5. Double Younger Dryas moraines at Titcomb Lakes in the Wind
River Range of Wyoming.Implications
The multiple nature of YD moraines in widely separated areas of the world
and in both hemispheres indicates that the YD consisted of more than a
single climatic event and these occurred virtually simultaneously
worldwide. Both ice sheets and alpine glaciers were sensitive to the
multiple YD phases. The GISP2 ice core shows two peaks within the YD that
match the glacial record. The absence of a time lag between the N and S
Hemispheres glacial fluctuations precludes an ocean cause and is not
consistent with the North Atlantic Deep Ocean Water hypothesis for the
cause of the Younger Dryas, nor with a cosmic impact or volcanic origin.Both 14C and 10Be production rates in the upper atmosphere changed
during the YD. 14C and 10Be are isotopes produced by collision of
incoming radiation with atoms in the upper atmosphere. The change in their
production rates means that the Younger Dryas was associated with changes
in the amount of radiation entering the Earth’s atmosphere, leading to the
intriguing possibility that the YD was caused by solar fluctuations.Why the Younger Dryas is important
What can we learn from all this? The ice core isotope data were hugely
significant because they showed that the Younger Dryas, as well as the
other late Pleistocene warming and cooling events could not possibly have
been caused by slow, Croll-Milankovitch orbital forcing, which occurs over
many tens of thousands of years. The ice core isotope data thus essentially
killed the Croll-Milankovitch theory as the cause of the Ice Ages.In an attempt to save the Croll-Milankovitch theory, Broecker and Dention
(1990) published a paper postulating that large amounts of fresh water
discharged into the north Atlantic about 12,800 years ago when retreat of
the Laurentide ice sheet allowed drainage of glacial Lake Agassiz to spill
eastward into the Atlantic Ocean. They proposed that this large influx of
fresh water might have stopped the formation of descending, higher-density
water in the North Atlantic, thereby interrupting deep-water currents that
distribute large amounts of heat globally and initiating a short-term
return to glacial conditions. If indeed that was the case, then the Younger
Dryas would have been initiated in the North Atlantic and propagated from
there to the Southern Hemisphere and the rest of the world. Since that
would take time, it means that the YD should be 400-1000 years younger in
the Southern Hemisphere and Pacific areas than in the Northern Hemisphere.
However, numerous radiocarbon and cosmogenic dates of the Younger Dryas all
over the world indicate the cooling was globally synchronous. Thus, the
North Atlantic deep current theory is not consistent with the chronology of
the Younger Dryas.
The climatic fluctuations before and after the Younger Dryas, as well as
the fluctuations within it, and the duration of these changes are not
consistent with a single event cause of the YD. Neither cosmic impact or
volcanic eruptions could produce the abrupt, multiple climatic changes that
occurred during the late Pleistocene.On Feb 19, 2025, at 8:21 PM, Brendan McMillion < >> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Global average temperature for the past 2k years can be measured
relatively accurately:
Temperature record of the last 2,000 years - Wikipedia
You can see in the graph in this link that the temperature increase since
1850 is so dramatic that it is double any naturally-occurring temperature
change in the past 2k years.Though there are also estimates of the global average temperature that go
back 150k years:
Analysis: Is it actually hotter now than any time in the last 100,000 years? | PBS News
In this scale, the past 150 years are a vertical tick. No other time in
the past 150k years has the temperature increased so much so quickly. So
there’s no empirical evidence of natural climate change this quick, or any
natural cause that can realistically point to as an explanation.We know causally that increased co2 concentration in the atmosphere will
increase global temperatures because of the greenhouse effect. And when you
graph co2 concentration against global temperature, you see they correlate
exactly:
If carbon dioxide hits a new high every year, why isn’t every year hotter than the last? | NOAA Climate.govOn Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:48 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >> wrote:
I try to keep an open mind about it, but am definitely on the skeptical
side of the fence where the Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory is
concerned. I’m always happy to discuss, but would encourage anyone wishing
to do so to watch the full documentary, and don’t be put off by the
inflammatory title and opening sequence – it makes a much better case than
a cursory glance at those things would suggest.I fully agree that the climate has been changing – for as long as the
Earth has been around. If the causes of past swings of cooling and warming
are not fully understood, which I don’t believe they are, I don’t think
natural causes can be ruled out as the main drivers of recently observed
climate change.Pollution can indeed by seen as a form of trespass and violation of the
Non-Aggression Principle, at least when it reaches a certain threshold.
Like most things, it’s a matter of degree. A person exhaling carbon dioxide
by breathing is adding CO2 to the atmosphere as surely as a smog-belching
factory, just on a much smaller scale. I’m dubious of whether there’s any
clear and simple application of property rights that could solve air
pollution issues, as nice as it would be to have such a tidy libertarian
solution.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 5:09 PM, Brendan McMillion < >>> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Starchild
I’m happy to talk through any specific scientific arguments with respect
to climate change that you’re interested in. I watched a few minutes of
this documentary. So far it’s just made claims that climate change is some
scheme to make money, or hinder the development of Africa. The fact is that
climate change is human-caused and addressing it is urgent. I was honestly
pretty shocked when you told me you didn’t believe this. Every year more
and more people are dying or losing everything they have due to disasters
directly linked to climate change. 2024 was the hottest year ever recorded
since 1880. Before that, 2023 had been the hottest year to have ever been
recorded. Significant portions of LA just burned in massive wildfires in
winter.Ironically, libertarians should be some of the strongest supporters of
addressing climate change because we know tragedies of the commons can
always be solved through robust property rights. You would never be allowed
to dump your garbage on someone’s doorstep without consent; why is everyone
allowed to dump their garbage into the air for free?On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:26 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >>> wrote:
Brendan,
Here’s the British documentary film about anthropogenic global warming
(aka climate change) that I mentioned to you when we were hanging out
yesterday:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQIt’s from 2007, but still the most compelling explanation I’ve found of
what’s really going on with temperature on Earth.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
So your belief is that average global temperatures did not increase during the Dryas or other past periods? Or just that they have never naturally increased in Earth’s past as rapidly as they are claimed to have increased recently?
How do you explain the lack of correlation between the timelines of modern warming and the increase of CO2 and other “greenhouse gases” in the atmosphere? If we don’t understand why they don’t correlate, isn’t it possible that natural causes have been driving global warming?
Anyway, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the points discussed in the documentary after you’ve had a chance to watch the whole thing.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 10:49 PM, Brendan McMillion brendanmcmillion@gmail.com wrote:
Nobody has claimed that warming is uniform or global. The claim is that global average temperature is increasing. Different regions of the world are in fact warming at different rates. However all three of the links from my second email have graphs explicitly labeled as measuring global average.
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:38 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Are you sure that recent warming has been uniformly worldwide? I’m by no means certain of that. This report for instance notes that weather stations in eastern Antarctica – a vast area the size of the United States – show temperatures getting colder, not warmer, over the past few decades:
NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4 Decades…Cooling Trend
NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4 Decades…Cooling Trend
notrickszone.com
<cropped-Norway_2020_08-180x180.png>
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trendNASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4 Decades…Cooling Trend https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
notrickszone.com https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend <cropped-Norway_2020_08-180x180.png> https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trendLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 9:46 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
I’ve never heard of the Younger Dryas but it’s wiki page is pretty clear that it was a regional change in temperature. It happened primarily in Greenland, to a lesser extent in Europe, to a lesser extent the northern hemisphere. The given explanation for it is that there was a sudden change in ocean currents. Which makes sense then why it isn’t reflected in global average. There’s the same amount of total heat in the system, the ocean currents just started moving it around differently.
This is the purpose of measuring global average temperature; it captures the total amount of heat energy being retained by the atmosphere, independent of exactly how it’s distributed. Excluding human activities, there have not been similarly rapid changes in global atmosphere composition / average temperature like you claim.
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 9:11 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Below is a message I posted to the LPSF list and others back in 2020 that addresses this argument of unprecedented recent temperature rise. This warming has not correlated well with human emissions of carbon dioxide and other “greenhouse gases”. There are more details on this in the film:
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
youtube.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQThe Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
From: Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net>
Subject: [bayareafaeries] Rapid, dramatic climate change the media are ignoring?
Date: March 8, 2020 at 9:14:43 PM PDT
To: LPSF Discussion List <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>, Bay Area Faeries <bayareafaeries@groups.queernet.org mailto:bayareafaeries@groups.queernet.org>, Bay Area Liberty <ba-liberty@yahoogroups.com mailto:ba-liberty@yahoogroups.com>, LibertarianHorizons@groups.io mailto:LibertarianHorizons@groups.io, SFBay Cannabis Community List <SFBayCannabisCommunity@yahoogroups.com mailto:SFBayCannabisCommunity@yahoogroups.com>, CALibs@yahoogroups.com mailto:CALibs@yahoogroups.com, LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com mailto:LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com, bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com mailto:bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.comEarth’s climate has been changing as long as the planet has existed, and the planet has been both colder and warmer at various times in the past than it is now. Human activity played essentially zero role in most of these changes, since they happened before the industrial era. These facts are not controversial, but they tend to be downplayed in media discussions of climate change and how it allegedly presents a serious threat to humans and the planet.
When I’ve pointed out this long history of “natural” (non-human-caused) climate change to folks who believe the mainstream narrative that human activity is causing major climatic change now and that this is a major problem, a response I’ve often gotten is that this time is different because climate change in the past has never been as rapid or dramatic as it has recently. While that point seems to be taken more on faith than on any particular knowledge of past temperature records, it has been difficult to dispute because the temperature record of Earth’s climate history is usually framed in long periods of geological time rather than looking at what temperature changes occurred in a few brief decades.
The article below, however, discusses scientific findings based on studying the isotopes in Greenland ice core samples which show that some of the global warming that took place thousands of years ago was more rapid and dramatic than recent global warming allegedly caused by humans:
“The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene. Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming 14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between ~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core suggests that Greenland was more than ~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas occurred in only about 40 to 50. years.” [emphasis added]
By way of comparison, advocates of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory (the idea that humans are responsible for global warming) are predicting less warming than this over a longer time period even if none of their recommendations to combat global warming are followed. The International Energy Agency (IEA) recently predicted we’re “on track for about 3 degrees Celsius of warming by 2100”, while the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) predicts warming of about 4° Celsius by 2100 in its “worse case” scenario of coal use growing dramatically during the 21st century – an outcome that many now view as unrealistic (see Climate Change Worst-Case Scenario Now Looks Unrealistic).
Again, that’s 4° of warming over 80 years being predicted by AGW theory proponents as the worst case scenario if humans continue to burn fossil fuels without regard to climate change, versus 10° of warming that occurred historically over a 40 or 50 year period some 11,500 years ago – if you trust the science.
Also of note is the graph accompanying the story, which shows in dramatic visual terms how insignificant recent warming is in comparison to this historical warming.
Now to be clear, the point is not that 3 or 4 degrees of global warming in the next 80 years would not be disruptive. I’m sure it would be, to both the environment and the economy. There might be good reasons to try to tamper with Earth’s climate in order to prevent such a change.
But this evidence of more rapid dramatic warming having occurred in the past suggests that even if the Earth does get 3 or 4 degrees warmer by 2100, it would not herald irreversible doom as some alarmists would have us believe. The science is telling us that the planet warmed more rapidly in the past during a shorter time frame, and then temperatures eventually more or less leveled out. Earth didn’t just continue to get warmer and warmer in a self-perpetuating, out-of-control cycle.
Another important thing to understand is that scientists aren’t sure what caused the rapid warming that ended the Younger Dryas period. This lack of understanding of “natural” causes of climate change suggests that if whatever caused the rapid warming 11,500 years ago, also caused the milder warming the Earth has experienced recently, we wouldn’t know. The assumption that recent warming must be due to human activity because “nothing like this has ever happened before”, does not accurately reflect the historical temperature record.
All this is of course just my take on the data presented below. I’m interested in hearing from AGW proponents who have a good response to this. If you know one, please invite them to comment!
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
The Intriguing Problem Of The Younger Dryas—What Does It Mean And What Caused It?
Anthony Watts https://wattsupwiththat.com/author/wattsupwiththat/ / June 19, 2012 https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/
This is a follow up posting to Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story! http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!WUWT readers may recall this recent story: New evidence of Younger Dryas extraterrestrial impact The story below…
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/Guest post by Don J. Easterbrook
Dept. of Geology, Western Washington University.
The Younger Dryas was a period of rapid cooling in the late Pleistocene 12,800 to 11,500 calendar years ago. It followed closely on the heels of a dramatically abrupt warming that brought the last Ice Age to a close (17,500 calendar years ago), lasted for about 1,300 years, then ended as abruptly as it started. The cause of these remarkably sudden climate changes has puzzled geologists and climatologists for decades and despite much effort to find the answer, can still only be considered enigmatic.
The Younger Dryas interruption of the global warming that resulted in the abrupt, wholesale melting of the huge late Pleistocene ice sheets was first discovered in European pollen studies about 75 years ago. Terrestrial plants and pollen indicate that arboreal forests were replaced by tundra vegetation during a cool climate. This cool period was named after the pale yellow flower Dryas octopetella, an arctic wildflower typical of cold, open, Arctic environments. The Younger Dryas return to a cold, glacial climate was first considered to be a regional event restricted to Europe, but later studies have shown that it was a world-wide event. The problem became even more complicated when oxygen isotope data from ice cores in Antarctica and Greenland showed not only the Younger Dryas cooling, but several other shorter cooling/warming events, now known as Dansgaard-Oerscher events.
The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene. Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming 14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between ~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core suggests that Greenland was more than~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas occurred in only about 40 to 50 years.
<clip_image002.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0021.jpg
Figure 1. Temperature fluctuations over the past 17,000 years showing the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas. The late Pleistocene cold glacial climate that built immense ice sheets terminated suddenly about 14,500 years ago (1), causing glaciers to melt dramatically. About 12,800 years ago, after about 2000 years of fluctuating climate (2-4), temperatures plunged suddenly (5) and remained cool for 1300 years (6). About 11,500 years ago, the climate again warmed suddenly and the Younger Dryas ended (7).Radiocarbon and cosmogenic dating of glacial moraines in regions all over the world and abrupt changes in oxygen isotope ratios in ice cores indicate that the Younger Dryas cooling was globally synchronous. Evidence of Younger Dryas advance of continental ice sheets is reported from the Scandinavian ice sheet, the Laurentide ice sheet in eastern North America, the Cordilleran ice sheet in western North America, and the Siberian ice sheet in Russia. Alpine and ice cap glaciers also responded to the abrupt Younger Dryas cooling in both the Northern and Southern hemispheres, e.g., many places in the Rocky Mts. of the U.S. and Canada, the Cascade Mts. of Washington, the European Alps, the Southern Alps of New Zealand, and the Andes Mts. in Patagonia of South America.
<clip_image004.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0041.jpg
Figure 2. Temperature fluctuations over the past 15,000 years showing the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas and other warming and cooling periods, the Oldest Dryas (cool), Bölllng (warm), Older Dryas (cool), Allerød (warm), InterAllerød (cool), and Younger Dryas (cool).<clip_image006.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image006.jpg
Figure 3. Oxygen isotope record from the Greenland ice core showing an abrupt temperature drop 12,800 years ago, 1300 years of cool climate, and sudden warming 11,500 years ago.The Younger Dryas had multiple glacial advances and retreats
The Younger Dryas was not just a single climatic event. Late Pleistocene climatic warming and cooling not only occurred before and after the YD, but also within it. All three major Pleistocene ice sheets, the Scandinavian, Laurentide, and Cordilleran, experienced double moraine-building episodes, as did a large number of alpine glaciers. Multiple YD moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet have long been documented and a vast literature exists. The Scandinavian Ice Sheet readvanced during the YD and built two extensive end moraines across southern Finland, the central Swedish moraines, and the Ra moraines of southwestern Norway(Fig. 4). 14C dates indicate they were separated by about 500 years.
<clip_image008.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image008.jpg
Figure 4. Double Younger Dryas moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet.Among the first multiple YD moraines to be recognized were the Loch Lomond moraines of the Scotish Highlands. Alpine glaciers and icefields in Britain readvanced or re-formed during the YD and built extensive moraines at the glacier margins. The largest YD icefield at this time was the Scotish Highland glacier complex, but smaller alpine glaciers occurred in the Hebrides and Cairngorms of Scotland, in the English Lake District, and in Ireland. The Loch Lomond moraines consist of multiple moraines. Radiocarbon dates constrain the age of the Loch Lomond moraines between 12.9 and 11.5 calendar years ago.
Multiple Younger Dryas moraines of alpine glaciers also occur throughout the world, e.g., the European Alps, the Rocky Mts., Alaska, the Cascade Range, the Andes, the New Zealand Alps, and elsewhere.
<clip_image010.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image010.jpg
Figure 5. Double Younger Dryas moraines at Titcomb Lakes in the Wind River Range of Wyoming.Implications
The multiple nature of YD moraines in widely separated areas of the world and in both hemispheres indicates that the YD consisted of more than a single climatic event and these occurred virtually simultaneously worldwide. Both ice sheets and alpine glaciers were sensitive to the multiple YD phases. The GISP2 ice core shows two peaks within the YD that match the glacial record. The absence of a time lag between the N and S Hemispheres glacial fluctuations precludes an ocean cause and is not consistent with the North Atlantic Deep Ocean Water hypothesis for the cause of the Younger Dryas, nor with a cosmic impact or volcanic origin.
Both 14C and 10Be production rates in the upper atmosphere changed during the YD. 14C and 10Be are isotopes produced by collision of incoming radiation with atoms in the upper atmosphere. The change in their production rates means that the Younger Dryas was associated with changes in the amount of radiation entering the Earth’s atmosphere, leading to the intriguing possibility that the YD was caused by solar fluctuations.
Why the Younger Dryas is important
What can we learn from all this? The ice core isotope data were hugely significant because they showed that the Younger Dryas, as well as the other late Pleistocene warming and cooling events could not possibly have been caused by slow, Croll-Milankovitch orbital forcing, which occurs over many tens of thousands of years. The ice core isotope data thus essentially killed the Croll-Milankovitch theory as the cause of the Ice Ages.
In an attempt to save the Croll-Milankovitch theory, Broecker and Dention (1990) published a paper postulating that large amounts of fresh water discharged into the north Atlantic about 12,800 years ago when retreat of the Laurentide ice sheet allowed drainage of glacial Lake Agassiz to spill eastward into the Atlantic Ocean. They proposed that this large influx of fresh water might have stopped the formation of descending, higher-density water in the North Atlantic, thereby interrupting deep-water currents that distribute large amounts of heat globally and initiating a short-term return to glacial conditions. If indeed that was the case, then the Younger Dryas would have been initiated in the North Atlantic and propagated from there to the Southern Hemisphere and the rest of the world. Since that would take time, it means that the YD should be 400-1000 years younger in the Southern Hemisphere and Pacific areas than in the Northern Hemisphere. However, numerous radiocarbon and cosmogenic dates of the Younger Dryas all over the world indicate the cooling was globally synchronous. Thus, the North Atlantic deep current theory is not consistent with the chronology of the Younger Dryas.
The climatic fluctuations before and after the Younger Dryas, as well as the fluctuations within it, and the duration of these changes are not consistent with a single event cause of the YD. Neither cosmic impact or volcanic eruptions could produce the abrupt, multiple climatic changes that occurred during the late Pleistocene.
On Feb 19, 2025, at 8:21 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Global average temperature for the past 2k years can be measured relatively accurately: Temperature record of the last 2,000 years - Wikipedia
You can see in the graph in this link that the temperature increase since 1850 is so dramatic that it is double any naturally-occurring temperature change in the past 2k years.Though there are also estimates of the global average temperature that go back 150k years: Analysis: Is it actually hotter now than any time in the last 100,000 years? | PBS News
In this scale, the past 150 years are a vertical tick. No other time in the past 150k years has the temperature increased so much so quickly. So there’s no empirical evidence of natural climate change this quick, or any natural cause that can realistically point to as an explanation.We know causally that increased co2 concentration in the atmosphere will increase global temperatures because of the greenhouse effect. And when you graph co2 concentration against global temperature, you see they correlate exactly: If carbon dioxide hits a new high every year, why isn’t every year hotter than the last? | NOAA Climate.gov
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:48 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
I try to keep an open mind about it, but am definitely on the skeptical side of the fence where the Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory is concerned. I’m always happy to discuss, but would encourage anyone wishing to do so to watch the full documentary, and don’t be put off by the inflammatory title and opening sequence – it makes a much better case than a cursory glance at those things would suggest.
I fully agree that the climate has been changing – for as long as the Earth has been around. If the causes of past swings of cooling and warming are not fully understood, which I don’t believe they are, I don’t think natural causes can be ruled out as the main drivers of recently observed climate change.
Pollution can indeed by seen as a form of trespass and violation of the Non-Aggression Principle, at least when it reaches a certain threshold. Like most things, it’s a matter of degree. A person exhaling carbon dioxide by breathing is adding CO2 to the atmosphere as surely as a smog-belching factory, just on a much smaller scale. I’m dubious of whether there’s any clear and simple application of property rights that could solve air pollution issues, as nice as it would be to have such a tidy libertarian solution.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 5:09 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Starchild
I’m happy to talk through any specific scientific arguments with respect to climate change that you’re interested in. I watched a few minutes of this documentary. So far it’s just made claims that climate change is some scheme to make money, or hinder the development of Africa. The fact is that climate change is human-caused and addressing it is urgent. I was honestly pretty shocked when you told me you didn’t believe this. Every year more and more people are dying or losing everything they have due to disasters directly linked to climate change. 2024 was the hottest year ever recorded since 1880. Before that, 2023 had been the hottest year to have ever been recorded. Significant portions of LA just burned in massive wildfires in winter.
Ironically, libertarians should be some of the strongest supporters of addressing climate change because we know tragedies of the commons can always be solved through robust property rights. You would never be allowed to dump your garbage on someone’s doorstep without consent; why is everyone allowed to dump their garbage into the air for free?
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:26 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Brendan,
Here’s the British documentary film about anthropogenic global warming (aka climate change) that I mentioned to you when we were hanging out yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
youtube.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQThe Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQIt’s from 2007, but still the most compelling explanation I’ve found of what’s really going on with temperature on Earth.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
The Dryas was cooling in some regions, accompanied by warming in other
regions. So no, that wouldn’t be consistent with a change in global average.
Yes, the second link in my second email has a graph of temperature over the
past 150k years. There are no comparable changes in global average to the
past century.
I don’t know why you say there is no correlation. The third link I provided
shows very tight correlation.
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:58 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:
So your belief is that average global temperatures did not increase during
the Dryas or other past periods? Or just that they have never naturally
increased in Earth’s past as rapidly as they are claimed to have increased
recently?How do you explain the lack of correlation between the timelines of modern
warming and the increase of CO2 and other “greenhouse gases” in the
atmosphere? If we don’t understand why they don’t correlate, isn’t it
possible that natural causes have been driving global warming?Anyway, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the points discussed in
the documentary after you’ve had a chance to watch the whole thing.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 10:49 PM, Brendan McMillion < > brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Nobody has claimed that warming is uniform or global. The claim is that
global average temperature is increasing. Different regions of the world
are in fact warming at different rates. However all three of the links from
my second email have graphs explicitly labeled as measuring global average.On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:38 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net > wrote:
Are you sure that recent warming has been uniformly worldwide? I’m by no
means certain of that. This report for instance notes that weather stations
in eastern Antarctica – a vast area the size of the United States – show
temperatures getting colder, not warmer, over the past few decades:NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4 Decades…Cooling Trend
NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4
Decades…Cooling Trend
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
notrickszone.com
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
<cropped-Norway_2020_08-180x180.png>
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trendLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 9:46 PM, Brendan McMillion < >> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
I’ve never heard of the Younger Dryas but it’s wiki page is pretty clear
that it was a regional change in temperature. It happened primarily in
Greenland, to a lesser extent in Europe, to a lesser extent the northern
hemisphere. The given explanation for it is that there was a sudden change
in ocean currents. Which makes sense then why it isn’t reflected in global
average. There’s the same amount of total heat in the system, the ocean
currents just started moving it around differently.This is the purpose of measuring global average temperature; it captures
the total amount of heat energy being retained by the atmosphere,
independent of exactly how it’s distributed. Excluding human activities,
there have not been similarly rapid changes in global atmosphere
composition / average temperature like you claim.On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 9:11 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >> wrote:
Below is a message I posted to the LPSF list and others back in 2020
that addresses this argument of unprecedented recent temperature rise. This
warming has not correlated well with human emissions of carbon dioxide and
other “greenhouse gases”. There are more details on this in the film:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
*From: *Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net
*Subject: *[bayareafaeries] Rapid, dramatic climate change the media
are ignoring?
*Date: *March 8, 2020 at 9:14:43 PM PDT
*To: *LPSF Discussion List lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Bay Area
Faeries bayareafaeries@groups.queernet.org, Bay Area Liberty <
ba-liberty@yahoogroups.com>, LibertarianHorizons@groups.io, SFBay
Cannabis Community List SFBayCannabisCommunity@yahoogroups.com,
CALibs@yahoogroups.com, LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com,
bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.comEarth’s climate has been changing as long as the planet has existed, and
the planet has been both colder and warmer at various times in the past
than it is now. Human activity played essentially zero role in most of
these changes, since they happened before the industrial era. These facts
are not controversial, but they tend to be downplayed in media discussions
of climate change and how it allegedly presents a serious threat to humans
and the planet.When I’ve pointed out this long history of “natural” (non-human-caused)
climate change to folks who believe the mainstream narrative that human
activity is causing major climatic change now and that this is a major
problem, a response I’ve often gotten is that this time is different
because climate change in the past has never been as rapid or dramatic as
it has recently. While that point seems to be taken more on faith than
on any particular knowledge of past temperature records, it has been
difficult to dispute because the temperature record of Earth’s climate
history is usually framed in long periods of geological time rather than
looking at what temperature changes occurred in a few brief decades.The article below, however, discusses scientific findings based on
studying the isotopes in Greenland ice core samples which show that some of
the global warming that took place thousands of years ago was more
rapid and dramatic* than recent global warming allegedly caused by
humans*:“The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt
climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene.
Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming
14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into
rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between
~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the
beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt
climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the
most precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice
core stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the
Greenland Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially
important because the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has
been determined by the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a
very accurate chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by
measurement of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2
Greenland ice core suggests that Greenland was more than ~10°C colder
during the Younger Dryas and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended
the Younger Dryas occurred in only about 40 to 50. years.” [emphasis
added]By way of comparison, advocates of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW)
theory (the idea that humans are responsible for global warming) are
predicting less warming than this over a longer time period even if
none of their recommendations to combat global warming are followed. The
International Energy Agency (IEA) recently predicted we’re “on track for
about 3 degrees Celsius of warming by 2100”, while the Intergovernmental
Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) predicts warming of about 4*° *Celsius
by 2100 in its “worse case” scenario of coal use growing dramatically
during the 21st century – an outcome that many now view as unrealistic
(see
Climate Change Worst-Case Scenario Now Looks Unrealistic
).Again, that’s 4° of warming over 80 years being predicted by AGW
theory proponents as the worst case scenario if humans continue to burn
fossil fuels without regard to climate change, versus 10**° of warming
that occurred historically over a 40 or 50 year period some 11,500 years
ago – if you trust the science.Also of note is the graph accompanying the story, which shows in
dramatic visual terms how insignificant recent warming is in comparison to
this historical warming.Now to be clear, the point is not that 3 or 4 degrees of global warming
in the next 80 years would not be disruptive. I’m sure it would be, to both
the environment and the economy. There might be good reasons to try
to tamper with Earth’s climate in order to prevent such a change.But this evidence of more rapid dramatic warming having occurred in the
past suggests that even if the Earth does get 3 or 4 degrees warmer by
2100, it would not herald irreversible doom as some alarmists would have us
believe. The science is telling us that the planet warmed more rapidly
in the past during a shorter time frame, and then temperatures
eventually more or less leveled out. Earth didn’t just continue to get
warmer and warmer in a self-perpetuating, out-of-control cycle.Another important thing to understand is that scientists aren’t sure
what caused the rapid warming that ended the Younger Dryas period.
This lack of understanding of “natural” causes of climate change suggests
that if whatever caused the rapid warming 11,500 years ago, also caused the
milder warming the Earth has experienced recently, we wouldn’t know.
The assumption that recent warming must be due to human activity
because “nothing like this has ever happened before”, does not accurately
reflect the historical temperature record.All this is of course just my take on the data presented below. I’m
interested in hearing from AGW proponents who have a good response to this.
If you know one, please invite them to comment!Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
The Intriguing Problem Of The Younger Dryas—What Does It Mean And What
Caused It?
Anthony Watts https://wattsupwiththat.com/author/wattsupwiththat/ / June
19, 2012
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/This is a follow up posting to Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!WUWT readers may recall this recent story: New evidence of Younger Dryas
extraterrestrial impact The story below…http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Guest post by Don J. Easterbrook
Dept. of Geology, Western Washington University.
The Younger Dryas was a period of rapid cooling in the late Pleistocene
12,800 to 11,500 calendar years ago. It followed closely on the heels of a
dramatically abrupt warming that brought the last Ice Age to a close
(17,500 calendar years ago), lasted for about 1,300 years, then ended as
abruptly as it started. The cause of these remarkably sudden climate
changes has puzzled geologists and climatologists for decades and despite
much effort to find the answer, can still only be considered enigmatic.The Younger Dryas interruption of the global warming that resulted in
the abrupt, wholesale melting of the huge late Pleistocene ice sheets was
first discovered in European pollen studies about 75 years ago. Terrestrial
plants and pollen indicate that arboreal forests were replaced by tundra
vegetation during a cool climate. This cool period was named after the pale
yellow flower Dryas octopetella, an arctic wildflower typical of cold,
open, Arctic environments. The Younger Dryas return to a cold, glacial
climate was first considered to be a regional event restricted to Europe,
but later studies have shown that it was a world-wide event. The problem
became even more complicated when oxygen isotope data from ice cores in
Antarctica and Greenland showed not only the Younger Dryas cooling, but
several other shorter cooling/warming events, now known as
Dansgaard-Oerscher events.The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt
climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene.
Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming
14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into
rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between
~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the
beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic
warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise
record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core
stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland
Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because
the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by
the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate
chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement
of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core
suggests that Greenland was more than~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas
and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas
occurred in only about 40 to 50 years.<clip_image002.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0021.jpgFigure 1. Temperature fluctuations over the past 17,000 years showing
the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas. The late Pleistocene cold
glacial climate that built immense ice sheets terminated suddenly about
14,500 years ago (1), causing glaciers to melt dramatically. About 12,800
years ago, after about 2000 years of fluctuating climate (2-4),
temperatures plunged suddenly (5) and remained cool for 1300 years (6).
About 11,500 years ago, the climate again warmed suddenly and the Younger
Dryas ended (7).Radiocarbon and cosmogenic dating of glacial moraines in regions all
over the world and abrupt changes in oxygen isotope ratios in ice cores
indicate that the Younger Dryas cooling was globally synchronous. Evidence
of Younger Dryas advance of continental ice sheets is reported from the
Scandinavian ice sheet, the Laurentide ice sheet in eastern North America,
the Cordilleran ice sheet in western North America, and the Siberian ice
sheet in Russia. Alpine and ice cap glaciers also responded to the abrupt
Younger Dryas cooling in both the Northern and Southern hemispheres, e.g.,
many places in the Rocky Mts. of the U.S. and Canada, the Cascade Mts. of
Washington, the European Alps, the Southern Alps of New Zealand, and the
Andes Mts. in Patagonia of South America.<clip_image004.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0041.jpgFigure 2. Temperature fluctuations over the past 15,000 years showing
the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas and other warming and cooling
periods, the Oldest Dryas (cool), Bölllng (warm), Older Dryas (cool),
Allerød (warm), InterAllerød (cool), and Younger Dryas (cool).<clip_image006.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image006.jpgFigure 3. Oxygen isotope record from the Greenland ice core showing an
abrupt temperature drop 12,800 years ago, 1300 years of cool climate, and
sudden warming 11,500 years ago.The Younger Dryas had multiple glacial advances and retreats
The Younger Dryas was not just a single climatic event. Late Pleistocene
climatic warming and cooling not only occurred before and after the YD, but
also within it. All three major Pleistocene ice sheets, the Scandinavian,
Laurentide, and Cordilleran, experienced double moraine-building episodes,
as did a large number of alpine glaciers. Multiple YD moraines of the
Scandinavian Ice Sheet have long been documented and a vast literature
exists. The Scandinavian Ice Sheet readvanced during the YD and built two
extensive end moraines across southern Finland, the central Swedish
moraines, and the Ra moraines of southwestern Norway(Fig. 4). 14C dates
indicate they were separated by about 500 years.<clip_image008.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image008.jpgFigure 4. Double Younger Dryas moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet.
Among the first multiple YD moraines to be recognized were the Loch
Lomond moraines of the Scotish Highlands. Alpine glaciers and icefields in
Britain readvanced or re-formed during the YD and built extensive moraines
at the glacier margins. The largest YD icefield at this time was the
Scotish Highland glacier complex, but smaller alpine glaciers occurred in
the Hebrides and Cairngorms of Scotland, in the English Lake District, and
in Ireland. The Loch Lomond moraines consist of multiple moraines.
Radiocarbon dates constrain the age of the Loch Lomond moraines between
12.9 and 11.5 calendar years ago.Multiple Younger Dryas moraines of alpine glaciers also occur throughout
the world, e.g., the European Alps, the Rocky Mts., Alaska, the Cascade
Range, the Andes, the New Zealand Alps, and elsewhere.<clip_image010.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image010.jpgFigure 5. Double Younger Dryas moraines at Titcomb Lakes in the Wind
River Range of Wyoming.Implications
The multiple nature of YD moraines in widely separated areas of the
world and in both hemispheres indicates that the YD consisted of more than
a single climatic event and these occurred virtually simultaneously
worldwide. Both ice sheets and alpine glaciers were sensitive to the
multiple YD phases. The GISP2 ice core shows two peaks within the YD that
match the glacial record. The absence of a time lag between the N and S
Hemispheres glacial fluctuations precludes an ocean cause and is not
consistent with the North Atlantic Deep Ocean Water hypothesis for the
cause of the Younger Dryas, nor with a cosmic impact or volcanic origin.Both 14C and 10Be production rates in the upper atmosphere changed
during the YD. 14C and 10Be are isotopes produced by collision of
incoming radiation with atoms in the upper atmosphere. The change in their
production rates means that the Younger Dryas was associated with changes
in the amount of radiation entering the Earth’s atmosphere, leading to the
intriguing possibility that the YD was caused by solar fluctuations.Why the Younger Dryas is important
What can we learn from all this? The ice core isotope data were hugely
significant because they showed that the Younger Dryas, as well as the
other late Pleistocene warming and cooling events could not possibly have
been caused by slow, Croll-Milankovitch orbital forcing, which occurs over
many tens of thousands of years. The ice core isotope data thus essentially
killed the Croll-Milankovitch theory as the cause of the Ice Ages.In an attempt to save the Croll-Milankovitch theory, Broecker and
Dention (1990) published a paper postulating that large amounts of fresh
water discharged into the north Atlantic about 12,800 years ago when
retreat of the Laurentide ice sheet allowed drainage of glacial Lake
Agassiz to spill eastward into the Atlantic Ocean. They proposed that this
large influx of fresh water might have stopped the formation of descending,
higher-density water in the North Atlantic, thereby interrupting deep-water
currents that distribute large amounts of heat globally and initiating a
short-term return to glacial conditions. If indeed that was the case, then
the Younger Dryas would have been initiated in the North Atlantic and
propagated from there to the Southern Hemisphere and the rest of the world.
Since that would take time, it means that the YD should be 400-1000 years
younger in the Southern Hemisphere and Pacific areas than in the Northern
Hemisphere. However, numerous radiocarbon and cosmogenic dates of the
Younger Dryas all over the world indicate the cooling was globally
synchronous. Thus, the North Atlantic deep current theory is not consistent
with the chronology of the Younger Dryas.
The climatic fluctuations before and after the Younger Dryas, as well as
the fluctuations within it, and the duration of these changes are not
consistent with a single event cause of the YD. Neither cosmic impact or
volcanic eruptions could produce the abrupt, multiple climatic changes that
occurred during the late Pleistocene.On Feb 19, 2025, at 8:21 PM, Brendan McMillion < >>> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Global average temperature for the past 2k years can be measured
relatively accurately:
Temperature record of the last 2,000 years - Wikipedia
You can see in the graph in this link that the temperature increase
since 1850 is so dramatic that it is double any naturally-occurring
temperature change in the past 2k years.Though there are also estimates of the global average temperature that
go back 150k years:
Analysis: Is it actually hotter now than any time in the last 100,000 years? | PBS News
In this scale, the past 150 years are a vertical tick. No other time in
the past 150k years has the temperature increased so much so quickly. So
there’s no empirical evidence of natural climate change this quick, or any
natural cause that can realistically point to as an explanation.We know causally that increased co2 concentration in the atmosphere will
increase global temperatures because of the greenhouse effect. And when you
graph co2 concentration against global temperature, you see they correlate
exactly:
If carbon dioxide hits a new high every year, why isn’t every year hotter than the last? | NOAA Climate.govOn Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:48 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >>> wrote:
I try to keep an open mind about it, but am definitely on the skeptical
side of the fence where the Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory is
concerned. I’m always happy to discuss, but would encourage anyone wishing
to do so to watch the full documentary, and don’t be put off by the
inflammatory title and opening sequence – it makes a much better case than
a cursory glance at those things would suggest.I fully agree that the climate has been changing – for as long as the
Earth has been around. If the causes of past swings of cooling and warming
are not fully understood, which I don’t believe they are, I don’t think
natural causes can be ruled out as the main drivers of recently observed
climate change.Pollution can indeed by seen as a form of trespass and violation of the
Non-Aggression Principle, at least when it reaches a certain threshold.
Like most things, it’s a matter of degree. A person exhaling carbon dioxide
by breathing is adding CO2 to the atmosphere as surely as a smog-belching
factory, just on a much smaller scale. I’m dubious of whether there’s any
clear and simple application of property rights that could solve air
pollution issues, as nice as it would be to have such a tidy libertarian
solution.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 5:09 PM, Brendan McMillion < >>>> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Starchild
I’m happy to talk through any specific scientific arguments with
respect to climate change that you’re interested in. I watched a few
minutes of this documentary. So far it’s just made claims that climate
change is some scheme to make money, or hinder the development of Africa.
The fact is that climate change is human-caused and addressing it is
urgent. I was honestly pretty shocked when you told me you didn’t believe
this. Every year more and more people are dying or losing everything they
have due to disasters directly linked to climate change. 2024 was the
hottest year ever recorded since 1880. Before that, 2023 had been the
hottest year to have ever been recorded. Significant portions of LA just
burned in massive wildfires in winter.Ironically, libertarians should be some of the strongest supporters of
addressing climate change because we know tragedies of the commons can
always be solved through robust property rights. You would never be allowed
to dump your garbage on someone’s doorstep without consent; why is everyone
allowed to dump their garbage into the air for free?On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:26 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >>>> wrote:
Brendan,
Here’s the British documentary film about anthropogenic global warming
(aka climate change) that I mentioned to you when we were hanging out
yesterday:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQIt’s from 2007, but still the most compelling explanation I’ve found
of what’s really going on with temperature on Earth.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
“Cooling in some regions (East Antarctica) accompanied by warming in other regions” is what we’re talking about in the current era, when you believe the global temperature average has been changing (slightly increasing).
But if you want to discuss this, please watch the film, which goes into more detail and does a better job describing it than I can do on the fly.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 11:06 PM, Brendan McMillion brendanmcmillion@gmail.com wrote:
The Dryas was cooling in some regions, accompanied by warming in other regions. So no, that wouldn’t be consistent with a change in global average.
Yes, the second link in my second email has a graph of temperature over the past 150k years. There are no comparable changes in global average to the past century.
I don’t know why you say there is no correlation. The third link I provided shows very tight correlation.
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:58 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
So your belief is that average global temperatures did not increase during the Dryas or other past periods? Or just that they have never naturally increased in Earth’s past as rapidly as they are claimed to have increased recently?
How do you explain the lack of correlation between the timelines of modern warming and the increase of CO2 and other “greenhouse gases” in the atmosphere? If we don’t understand why they don’t correlate, isn’t it possible that natural causes have been driving global warming?
Anyway, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the points discussed in the documentary after you’ve had a chance to watch the whole thing.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 10:49 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Nobody has claimed that warming is uniform or global. The claim is that global average temperature is increasing. Different regions of the world are in fact warming at different rates. However all three of the links from my second email have graphs explicitly labeled as measuring global average.
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:38 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Are you sure that recent warming has been uniformly worldwide? I’m by no means certain of that. This report for instance notes that weather stations in eastern Antarctica – a vast area the size of the United States – show temperatures getting colder, not warmer, over the past few decades:
NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4 Decades…Cooling Trend
NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4 Decades…Cooling Trend
notrickszone.com
<cropped-Norway_2020_08-180x180.png>
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trendNASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4 Decades…Cooling Trend https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
notrickszone.com https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend <cropped-Norway_2020_08-180x180.png> https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trendLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 9:46 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
I’ve never heard of the Younger Dryas but it’s wiki page is pretty clear that it was a regional change in temperature. It happened primarily in Greenland, to a lesser extent in Europe, to a lesser extent the northern hemisphere. The given explanation for it is that there was a sudden change in ocean currents. Which makes sense then why it isn’t reflected in global average. There’s the same amount of total heat in the system, the ocean currents just started moving it around differently.
This is the purpose of measuring global average temperature; it captures the total amount of heat energy being retained by the atmosphere, independent of exactly how it’s distributed. Excluding human activities, there have not been similarly rapid changes in global atmosphere composition / average temperature like you claim.
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 9:11 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Below is a message I posted to the LPSF list and others back in 2020 that addresses this argument of unprecedented recent temperature rise. This warming has not correlated well with human emissions of carbon dioxide and other “greenhouse gases”. There are more details on this in the film:
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
youtube.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQThe Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
From: Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net>
Subject: [bayareafaeries] Rapid, dramatic climate change the media are ignoring?
Date: March 8, 2020 at 9:14:43 PM PDT
To: LPSF Discussion List <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>, Bay Area Faeries <bayareafaeries@groups.queernet.org mailto:bayareafaeries@groups.queernet.org>, Bay Area Liberty <ba-liberty@yahoogroups.com mailto:ba-liberty@yahoogroups.com>, LibertarianHorizons@groups.io mailto:LibertarianHorizons@groups.io, SFBay Cannabis Community List <SFBayCannabisCommunity@yahoogroups.com mailto:SFBayCannabisCommunity@yahoogroups.com>, CALibs@yahoogroups.com mailto:CALibs@yahoogroups.com, LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com mailto:LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com, bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com mailto:bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.comEarth’s climate has been changing as long as the planet has existed, and the planet has been both colder and warmer at various times in the past than it is now. Human activity played essentially zero role in most of these changes, since they happened before the industrial era. These facts are not controversial, but they tend to be downplayed in media discussions of climate change and how it allegedly presents a serious threat to humans and the planet.
When I’ve pointed out this long history of “natural” (non-human-caused) climate change to folks who believe the mainstream narrative that human activity is causing major climatic change now and that this is a major problem, a response I’ve often gotten is that this time is different because climate change in the past has never been as rapid or dramatic as it has recently. While that point seems to be taken more on faith than on any particular knowledge of past temperature records, it has been difficult to dispute because the temperature record of Earth’s climate history is usually framed in long periods of geological time rather than looking at what temperature changes occurred in a few brief decades.
The article below, however, discusses scientific findings based on studying the isotopes in Greenland ice core samples which show that some of the global warming that took place thousands of years ago was more rapid and dramatic than recent global warming allegedly caused by humans:
“The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene. Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming 14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between ~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core suggests that Greenland was more than ~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas occurred in only about 40 to 50. years.” [emphasis added]
By way of comparison, advocates of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory (the idea that humans are responsible for global warming) are predicting less warming than this over a longer time period even if none of their recommendations to combat global warming are followed. The International Energy Agency (IEA) recently predicted we’re “on track for about 3 degrees Celsius of warming by 2100”, while the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) predicts warming of about 4° Celsius by 2100 in its “worse case” scenario of coal use growing dramatically during the 21st century – an outcome that many now view as unrealistic (see Climate Change Worst-Case Scenario Now Looks Unrealistic).
Again, that’s 4° of warming over 80 years being predicted by AGW theory proponents as the worst case scenario if humans continue to burn fossil fuels without regard to climate change, versus 10° of warming that occurred historically over a 40 or 50 year period some 11,500 years ago – if you trust the science.
Also of note is the graph accompanying the story, which shows in dramatic visual terms how insignificant recent warming is in comparison to this historical warming.
Now to be clear, the point is not that 3 or 4 degrees of global warming in the next 80 years would not be disruptive. I’m sure it would be, to both the environment and the economy. There might be good reasons to try to tamper with Earth’s climate in order to prevent such a change.
But this evidence of more rapid dramatic warming having occurred in the past suggests that even if the Earth does get 3 or 4 degrees warmer by 2100, it would not herald irreversible doom as some alarmists would have us believe. The science is telling us that the planet warmed more rapidly in the past during a shorter time frame, and then temperatures eventually more or less leveled out. Earth didn’t just continue to get warmer and warmer in a self-perpetuating, out-of-control cycle.
Another important thing to understand is that scientists aren’t sure what caused the rapid warming that ended the Younger Dryas period. This lack of understanding of “natural” causes of climate change suggests that if whatever caused the rapid warming 11,500 years ago, also caused the milder warming the Earth has experienced recently, we wouldn’t know. The assumption that recent warming must be due to human activity because “nothing like this has ever happened before”, does not accurately reflect the historical temperature record.
All this is of course just my take on the data presented below. I’m interested in hearing from AGW proponents who have a good response to this. If you know one, please invite them to comment!
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
The Intriguing Problem Of The Younger Dryas—What Does It Mean And What Caused It?
Anthony Watts https://wattsupwiththat.com/author/wattsupwiththat/ / June 19, 2012 https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/
This is a follow up posting to Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story! http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!WUWT readers may recall this recent story: New evidence of Younger Dryas extraterrestrial impact The story below…
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/Guest post by Don J. Easterbrook
Dept. of Geology, Western Washington University.
The Younger Dryas was a period of rapid cooling in the late Pleistocene 12,800 to 11,500 calendar years ago. It followed closely on the heels of a dramatically abrupt warming that brought the last Ice Age to a close (17,500 calendar years ago), lasted for about 1,300 years, then ended as abruptly as it started. The cause of these remarkably sudden climate changes has puzzled geologists and climatologists for decades and despite much effort to find the answer, can still only be considered enigmatic.
The Younger Dryas interruption of the global warming that resulted in the abrupt, wholesale melting of the huge late Pleistocene ice sheets was first discovered in European pollen studies about 75 years ago. Terrestrial plants and pollen indicate that arboreal forests were replaced by tundra vegetation during a cool climate. This cool period was named after the pale yellow flower Dryas octopetella, an arctic wildflower typical of cold, open, Arctic environments. The Younger Dryas return to a cold, glacial climate was first considered to be a regional event restricted to Europe, but later studies have shown that it was a world-wide event. The problem became even more complicated when oxygen isotope data from ice cores in Antarctica and Greenland showed not only the Younger Dryas cooling, but several other shorter cooling/warming events, now known as Dansgaard-Oerscher events.
The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene. Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming 14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between ~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core suggests that Greenland was more than~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas occurred in only about 40 to 50 years.
<clip_image002.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0021.jpg
Figure 1. Temperature fluctuations over the past 17,000 years showing the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas. The late Pleistocene cold glacial climate that built immense ice sheets terminated suddenly about 14,500 years ago (1), causing glaciers to melt dramatically. About 12,800 years ago, after about 2000 years of fluctuating climate (2-4), temperatures plunged suddenly (5) and remained cool for 1300 years (6). About 11,500 years ago, the climate again warmed suddenly and the Younger Dryas ended (7).Radiocarbon and cosmogenic dating of glacial moraines in regions all over the world and abrupt changes in oxygen isotope ratios in ice cores indicate that the Younger Dryas cooling was globally synchronous. Evidence of Younger Dryas advance of continental ice sheets is reported from the Scandinavian ice sheet, the Laurentide ice sheet in eastern North America, the Cordilleran ice sheet in western North America, and the Siberian ice sheet in Russia. Alpine and ice cap glaciers also responded to the abrupt Younger Dryas cooling in both the Northern and Southern hemispheres, e.g., many places in the Rocky Mts. of the U.S. and Canada, the Cascade Mts. of Washington, the European Alps, the Southern Alps of New Zealand, and the Andes Mts. in Patagonia of South America.
<clip_image004.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0041.jpg
Figure 2. Temperature fluctuations over the past 15,000 years showing the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas and other warming and cooling periods, the Oldest Dryas (cool), Bölllng (warm), Older Dryas (cool), Allerød (warm), InterAllerød (cool), and Younger Dryas (cool).<clip_image006.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image006.jpg
Figure 3. Oxygen isotope record from the Greenland ice core showing an abrupt temperature drop 12,800 years ago, 1300 years of cool climate, and sudden warming 11,500 years ago.The Younger Dryas had multiple glacial advances and retreats
The Younger Dryas was not just a single climatic event. Late Pleistocene climatic warming and cooling not only occurred before and after the YD, but also within it. All three major Pleistocene ice sheets, the Scandinavian, Laurentide, and Cordilleran, experienced double moraine-building episodes, as did a large number of alpine glaciers. Multiple YD moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet have long been documented and a vast literature exists. The Scandinavian Ice Sheet readvanced during the YD and built two extensive end moraines across southern Finland, the central Swedish moraines, and the Ra moraines of southwestern Norway(Fig. 4). 14C dates indicate they were separated by about 500 years.
<clip_image008.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image008.jpg
Figure 4. Double Younger Dryas moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet.Among the first multiple YD moraines to be recognized were the Loch Lomond moraines of the Scotish Highlands. Alpine glaciers and icefields in Britain readvanced or re-formed during the YD and built extensive moraines at the glacier margins. The largest YD icefield at this time was the Scotish Highland glacier complex, but smaller alpine glaciers occurred in the Hebrides and Cairngorms of Scotland, in the English Lake District, and in Ireland. The Loch Lomond moraines consist of multiple moraines. Radiocarbon dates constrain the age of the Loch Lomond moraines between 12.9 and 11.5 calendar years ago.
Multiple Younger Dryas moraines of alpine glaciers also occur throughout the world, e.g., the European Alps, the Rocky Mts., Alaska, the Cascade Range, the Andes, the New Zealand Alps, and elsewhere.
<clip_image010.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image010.jpg
Figure 5. Double Younger Dryas moraines at Titcomb Lakes in the Wind River Range of Wyoming.Implications
The multiple nature of YD moraines in widely separated areas of the world and in both hemispheres indicates that the YD consisted of more than a single climatic event and these occurred virtually simultaneously worldwide. Both ice sheets and alpine glaciers were sensitive to the multiple YD phases. The GISP2 ice core shows two peaks within the YD that match the glacial record. The absence of a time lag between the N and S Hemispheres glacial fluctuations precludes an ocean cause and is not consistent with the North Atlantic Deep Ocean Water hypothesis for the cause of the Younger Dryas, nor with a cosmic impact or volcanic origin.
Both 14C and 10Be production rates in the upper atmosphere changed during the YD. 14C and 10Be are isotopes produced by collision of incoming radiation with atoms in the upper atmosphere. The change in their production rates means that the Younger Dryas was associated with changes in the amount of radiation entering the Earth’s atmosphere, leading to the intriguing possibility that the YD was caused by solar fluctuations.
Why the Younger Dryas is important
What can we learn from all this? The ice core isotope data were hugely significant because they showed that the Younger Dryas, as well as the other late Pleistocene warming and cooling events could not possibly have been caused by slow, Croll-Milankovitch orbital forcing, which occurs over many tens of thousands of years. The ice core isotope data thus essentially killed the Croll-Milankovitch theory as the cause of the Ice Ages.
In an attempt to save the Croll-Milankovitch theory, Broecker and Dention (1990) published a paper postulating that large amounts of fresh water discharged into the north Atlantic about 12,800 years ago when retreat of the Laurentide ice sheet allowed drainage of glacial Lake Agassiz to spill eastward into the Atlantic Ocean. They proposed that this large influx of fresh water might have stopped the formation of descending, higher-density water in the North Atlantic, thereby interrupting deep-water currents that distribute large amounts of heat globally and initiating a short-term return to glacial conditions. If indeed that was the case, then the Younger Dryas would have been initiated in the North Atlantic and propagated from there to the Southern Hemisphere and the rest of the world. Since that would take time, it means that the YD should be 400-1000 years younger in the Southern Hemisphere and Pacific areas than in the Northern Hemisphere. However, numerous radiocarbon and cosmogenic dates of the Younger Dryas all over the world indicate the cooling was globally synchronous. Thus, the North Atlantic deep current theory is not consistent with the chronology of the Younger Dryas.
The climatic fluctuations before and after the Younger Dryas, as well as the fluctuations within it, and the duration of these changes are not consistent with a single event cause of the YD. Neither cosmic impact or volcanic eruptions could produce the abrupt, multiple climatic changes that occurred during the late Pleistocene.
On Feb 19, 2025, at 8:21 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Global average temperature for the past 2k years can be measured relatively accurately: Temperature record of the last 2,000 years - Wikipedia
You can see in the graph in this link that the temperature increase since 1850 is so dramatic that it is double any naturally-occurring temperature change in the past 2k years.Though there are also estimates of the global average temperature that go back 150k years: Analysis: Is it actually hotter now than any time in the last 100,000 years? | PBS News
In this scale, the past 150 years are a vertical tick. No other time in the past 150k years has the temperature increased so much so quickly. So there’s no empirical evidence of natural climate change this quick, or any natural cause that can realistically point to as an explanation.We know causally that increased co2 concentration in the atmosphere will increase global temperatures because of the greenhouse effect. And when you graph co2 concentration against global temperature, you see they correlate exactly: If carbon dioxide hits a new high every year, why isn’t every year hotter than the last? | NOAA Climate.gov
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:48 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
I try to keep an open mind about it, but am definitely on the skeptical side of the fence where the Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory is concerned. I’m always happy to discuss, but would encourage anyone wishing to do so to watch the full documentary, and don’t be put off by the inflammatory title and opening sequence – it makes a much better case than a cursory glance at those things would suggest.
I fully agree that the climate has been changing – for as long as the Earth has been around. If the causes of past swings of cooling and warming are not fully understood, which I don’t believe they are, I don’t think natural causes can be ruled out as the main drivers of recently observed climate change.
Pollution can indeed by seen as a form of trespass and violation of the Non-Aggression Principle, at least when it reaches a certain threshold. Like most things, it’s a matter of degree. A person exhaling carbon dioxide by breathing is adding CO2 to the atmosphere as surely as a smog-belching factory, just on a much smaller scale. I’m dubious of whether there’s any clear and simple application of property rights that could solve air pollution issues, as nice as it would be to have such a tidy libertarian solution.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 5:09 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Starchild
I’m happy to talk through any specific scientific arguments with respect to climate change that you’re interested in. I watched a few minutes of this documentary. So far it’s just made claims that climate change is some scheme to make money, or hinder the development of Africa. The fact is that climate change is human-caused and addressing it is urgent. I was honestly pretty shocked when you told me you didn’t believe this. Every year more and more people are dying or losing everything they have due to disasters directly linked to climate change. 2024 was the hottest year ever recorded since 1880. Before that, 2023 had been the hottest year to have ever been recorded. Significant portions of LA just burned in massive wildfires in winter.
Ironically, libertarians should be some of the strongest supporters of addressing climate change because we know tragedies of the commons can always be solved through robust property rights. You would never be allowed to dump your garbage on someone’s doorstep without consent; why is everyone allowed to dump their garbage into the air for free?
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:26 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Brendan,
Here’s the British documentary film about anthropogenic global warming (aka climate change) that I mentioned to you when we were hanging out yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
youtube.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQThe Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQIt’s from 2007, but still the most compelling explanation I’ve found of what’s really going on with temperature on Earth.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
When the northern hemisphere cools by some amount and the southern
hemisphere warms by an equivalent amount, that does not create a change in
global average temperature. That is what seems to have happened during the
Dryas. That’s also why estimates of global average temperature from that
time period don’t spike during the Dryas:
The majority of the planet warming substantially and some regions cooling
slightly, would in fact still be an increase in global average. That’s what
has been objectively measured as happening today.
The documentary won’t do a better job of explaining it because it’s not
true. You seem to have a misunderstanding of how averaging works
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 11:15 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:
“Cooling in some regions (East Antarctica) accompanied by warming in other
regions” is what we’re talking about in the current era, when you believe
the global temperature average *has *been changing (slightly increasing).But if you want to discuss this, please watch the film, which goes into
more detail and does a better job describing it than I can do on the fly.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 11:06 PM, Brendan McMillion < > brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
The Dryas was cooling in some regions, accompanied by warming in other
regions. So no, that wouldn’t be consistent with a change in global average.Yes, the second link in my second email has a graph of temperature over
the past 150k years. There are no comparable changes in global average to
the past century.I don’t know why you say there is no correlation. The third link I
provided shows very tight correlation.On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:58 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net > wrote:
So your belief is that average global temperatures did not increase
during the Dryas or other past periods? Or just that they have never
naturally increased in Earth’s past as rapidly as they are claimed to have
increased recently?How do you explain the lack of correlation between the timelines of
modern warming and the increase of CO2 and other “greenhouse gases” in the
atmosphere? If we don’t understand why they don’t correlate, isn’t it
possible that natural causes have been driving global warming?Anyway, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the points discussed
in the documentary after you’ve had a chance to watch the whole thing.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 10:49 PM, Brendan McMillion < >> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Nobody has claimed that warming is uniform or global. The claim is that
global average temperature is increasing. Different regions of the world
are in fact warming at different rates. However all three of the links from
my second email have graphs explicitly labeled as measuring global average.On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:38 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >> wrote:
Are you sure that recent warming has been uniformly worldwide? I’m by no
means certain of that. This report for instance notes that weather stations
in eastern Antarctica – a vast area the size of the United States – show
temperatures getting colder, not warmer, over the past few decades:NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4 Decades…Cooling Trend
NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4
Decades…Cooling Trend
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
notrickszone.com
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
<cropped-Norway_2020_08-180x180.png>
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trendLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 9:46 PM, Brendan McMillion < >>> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
I’ve never heard of the Younger Dryas but it’s wiki page is pretty clear
that it was a regional change in temperature. It happened primarily in
Greenland, to a lesser extent in Europe, to a lesser extent the northern
hemisphere. The given explanation for it is that there was a sudden change
in ocean currents. Which makes sense then why it isn’t reflected in global
average. There’s the same amount of total heat in the system, the ocean
currents just started moving it around differently.This is the purpose of measuring global average temperature; it captures
the total amount of heat energy being retained by the atmosphere,
independent of exactly how it’s distributed. Excluding human activities,
there have not been similarly rapid changes in global atmosphere
composition / average temperature like you claim.On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 9:11 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >>> wrote:
Below is a message I posted to the LPSF list and others back in 2020
that addresses this argument of unprecedented recent temperature rise. This
warming has not correlated well with human emissions of carbon dioxide and
other “greenhouse gases”. There are more details on this in the film:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
*From: *Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net
*Subject: *[bayareafaeries] Rapid, dramatic climate change the media
are ignoring?
*Date: *March 8, 2020 at 9:14:43 PM PDT
*To: *LPSF Discussion List lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Bay Area
Faeries bayareafaeries@groups.queernet.org, Bay Area Liberty <
ba-liberty@yahoogroups.com>, LibertarianHorizons@groups.io, SFBay
Cannabis Community List SFBayCannabisCommunity@yahoogroups.com,
CALibs@yahoogroups.com, LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com,
bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.comEarth’s climate has been changing as long as the planet has existed,
and the planet has been both colder and warmer at various times in the past
than it is now. Human activity played essentially zero role in most of
these changes, since they happened before the industrial era. These facts
are not controversial, but they tend to be downplayed in media discussions
of climate change and how it allegedly presents a serious threat to humans
and the planet.When I’ve pointed out this long history of “natural” (non-human-caused)
climate change to folks who believe the mainstream narrative that human
activity is causing major climatic change now and that this is a major
problem, a response I’ve often gotten is that this time is different
because climate change in the past has never been as rapid or dramatic as
it has recently. While that point seems to be taken more on faith
than on any particular knowledge of past temperature records, it has been
difficult to dispute because the temperature record of Earth’s climate
history is usually framed in long periods of geological time rather than
looking at what temperature changes occurred in a few brief decades.The article below, however, discusses scientific findings based on
studying the isotopes in Greenland ice core samples which show that some of
the global warming that took place thousands of years ago was more
rapid and dramatic* than recent global warming allegedly caused by
humans*:“The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt
climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene.
Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming
14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into
rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between
~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the
beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt
climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the
most precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice
core stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the
Greenland Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially
important because the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has
been determined by the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a
very accurate chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by
measurement of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2
Greenland ice core suggests that Greenland was more than ~10°C colder
during the Younger Dryas and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended
the Younger Dryas occurred in only about 40 to 50. years.” [emphasis
added]By way of comparison, advocates of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW)
theory (the idea that humans are responsible for global warming) are
predicting less warming than this over a longer time period even
if none of their recommendations to combat global warming are followed. The
International Energy Agency (IEA) recently predicted we’re “on track for
about 3 degrees Celsius of warming by 2100”, while the Intergovernmental
Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) predicts warming of about 4*° *Celsius
by 2100 in its “worse case” scenario of coal use growing dramatically
during the 21st century – an outcome that many now view as
unrealistic (see
Climate Change Worst-Case Scenario Now Looks Unrealistic
).Again, that’s 4° of warming over 80 years being predicted by AGW
theory proponents as the worst case scenario if humans continue to burn
fossil fuels without regard to climate change, versus 10**° of warming
that occurred historically over a 40 or 50 year period some 11,500 years
ago – if you trust the science.Also of note is the graph accompanying the story, which shows in
dramatic visual terms how insignificant recent warming is in comparison to
this historical warming.Now to be clear, the point is not that 3 or 4 degrees of global warming
in the next 80 years would not be disruptive. I’m sure it would be, to both
the environment and the economy. There might be good reasons to try
to tamper with Earth’s climate in order to prevent such a change.But this evidence of more rapid dramatic warming having occurred in the
past suggests that even if the Earth does get 3 or 4 degrees warmer by
2100, it would not herald irreversible doom as some alarmists would have us
believe. The science is telling us that the planet warmed more
rapidly in the past during a shorter time frame, and then
temperatures eventually more or less leveled out. Earth didn’t just
continue to get warmer and warmer in a self-perpetuating, out-of-control
cycle.Another important thing to understand is that scientists aren’t sure
what caused the rapid warming that ended the Younger Dryas period.
This lack of understanding of “natural” causes of climate change suggests
that if whatever caused the rapid warming 11,500 years ago, also caused the
milder warming the Earth has experienced recently, we wouldn’t know.
The assumption that recent warming must be due to human activity
because “nothing like this has ever happened before”, does not accurately
reflect the historical temperature record.All this is of course just my take on the data presented below. I’m
interested in hearing from AGW proponents who have a good response to this.
If you know one, please invite them to comment!Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
The Intriguing Problem Of The Younger Dryas—What Does It Mean And What
Caused It?
Anthony Watts https://wattsupwiththat.com/author/wattsupwiththat/ / June
19, 2012
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/This is a follow up posting to Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!WUWT readers may recall this recent story: New evidence of Younger
Dryas extraterrestrial impact The story below…http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Guest post by Don J. Easterbrook
Dept. of Geology, Western Washington University.
The Younger Dryas was a period of rapid cooling in the late Pleistocene
12,800 to 11,500 calendar years ago. It followed closely on the heels of a
dramatically abrupt warming that brought the last Ice Age to a close
(17,500 calendar years ago), lasted for about 1,300 years, then ended as
abruptly as it started. The cause of these remarkably sudden climate
changes has puzzled geologists and climatologists for decades and despite
much effort to find the answer, can still only be considered enigmatic.The Younger Dryas interruption of the global warming that resulted in
the abrupt, wholesale melting of the huge late Pleistocene ice sheets was
first discovered in European pollen studies about 75 years ago. Terrestrial
plants and pollen indicate that arboreal forests were replaced by tundra
vegetation during a cool climate. This cool period was named after the pale
yellow flower Dryas octopetella, an arctic wildflower typical of cold,
open, Arctic environments. The Younger Dryas return to a cold, glacial
climate was first considered to be a regional event restricted to Europe,
but later studies have shown that it was a world-wide event. The problem
became even more complicated when oxygen isotope data from ice cores in
Antarctica and Greenland showed not only the Younger Dryas cooling, but
several other shorter cooling/warming events, now known as
Dansgaard-Oerscher events.The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt
climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene.
Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming
14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into
rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between
~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the
beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic
warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise
record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core
stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland
Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because
the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by
the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate
chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement
of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core
suggests that Greenland was more than~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas
and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas
occurred in only about 40 to 50 years.<clip_image002.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0021.jpgFigure 1. Temperature fluctuations over the past 17,000 years showing
the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas. The late Pleistocene cold
glacial climate that built immense ice sheets terminated suddenly about
14,500 years ago (1), causing glaciers to melt dramatically. About 12,800
years ago, after about 2000 years of fluctuating climate (2-4),
temperatures plunged suddenly (5) and remained cool for 1300 years (6).
About 11,500 years ago, the climate again warmed suddenly and the Younger
Dryas ended (7).Radiocarbon and cosmogenic dating of glacial moraines in regions all
over the world and abrupt changes in oxygen isotope ratios in ice cores
indicate that the Younger Dryas cooling was globally synchronous. Evidence
of Younger Dryas advance of continental ice sheets is reported from the
Scandinavian ice sheet, the Laurentide ice sheet in eastern North America,
the Cordilleran ice sheet in western North America, and the Siberian ice
sheet in Russia. Alpine and ice cap glaciers also responded to the abrupt
Younger Dryas cooling in both the Northern and Southern hemispheres, e.g.,
many places in the Rocky Mts. of the U.S. and Canada, the Cascade Mts. of
Washington, the European Alps, the Southern Alps of New Zealand, and the
Andes Mts. in Patagonia of South America.<clip_image004.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0041.jpgFigure 2. Temperature fluctuations over the past 15,000 years showing
the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas and other warming and cooling
periods, the Oldest Dryas (cool), Bölllng (warm), Older Dryas (cool),
Allerød (warm), InterAllerød (cool), and Younger Dryas (cool).<clip_image006.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image006.jpgFigure 3. Oxygen isotope record from the Greenland ice core showing an
abrupt temperature drop 12,800 years ago, 1300 years of cool climate, and
sudden warming 11,500 years ago.The Younger Dryas had multiple glacial advances and retreats
The Younger Dryas was not just a single climatic event. Late
Pleistocene climatic warming and cooling not only occurred before and after
the YD, but also within it. All three major Pleistocene ice sheets, the
Scandinavian, Laurentide, and Cordilleran, experienced double
moraine-building episodes, as did a large number of alpine glaciers.
Multiple YD moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet have long been
documented and a vast literature exists. The Scandinavian Ice Sheet
readvanced during the YD and built two extensive end moraines across
southern Finland, the central Swedish moraines, and the Ra moraines of
southwestern Norway(Fig. 4). 14C dates indicate they were separated by
about 500 years.<clip_image008.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image008.jpgFigure 4. Double Younger Dryas moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet.
Among the first multiple YD moraines to be recognized were the Loch
Lomond moraines of the Scotish Highlands. Alpine glaciers and icefields in
Britain readvanced or re-formed during the YD and built extensive moraines
at the glacier margins. The largest YD icefield at this time was the
Scotish Highland glacier complex, but smaller alpine glaciers occurred in
the Hebrides and Cairngorms of Scotland, in the English Lake District, and
in Ireland. The Loch Lomond moraines consist of multiple moraines.
Radiocarbon dates constrain the age of the Loch Lomond moraines between
12.9 and 11.5 calendar years ago.Multiple Younger Dryas moraines of alpine glaciers also occur
throughout the world, e.g., the European Alps, the Rocky Mts., Alaska, the
Cascade Range, the Andes, the New Zealand Alps, and elsewhere.<clip_image010.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image010.jpgFigure 5. Double Younger Dryas moraines at Titcomb Lakes in the Wind
River Range of Wyoming.Implications
The multiple nature of YD moraines in widely separated areas of the
world and in both hemispheres indicates that the YD consisted of more than
a single climatic event and these occurred virtually simultaneously
worldwide. Both ice sheets and alpine glaciers were sensitive to the
multiple YD phases. The GISP2 ice core shows two peaks within the YD that
match the glacial record. The absence of a time lag between the N and S
Hemispheres glacial fluctuations precludes an ocean cause and is not
consistent with the North Atlantic Deep Ocean Water hypothesis for the
cause of the Younger Dryas, nor with a cosmic impact or volcanic origin.Both 14C and 10Be production rates in the upper atmosphere changed
during the YD. 14C and 10Be are isotopes produced by collision of
incoming radiation with atoms in the upper atmosphere. The change in their
production rates means that the Younger Dryas was associated with changes
in the amount of radiation entering the Earth’s atmosphere, leading to the
intriguing possibility that the YD was caused by solar fluctuations.Why the Younger Dryas is important
What can we learn from all this? The ice core isotope data were hugely
significant because they showed that the Younger Dryas, as well as the
other late Pleistocene warming and cooling events could not possibly have
been caused by slow, Croll-Milankovitch orbital forcing, which occurs over
many tens of thousands of years. The ice core isotope data thus essentially
killed the Croll-Milankovitch theory as the cause of the Ice Ages.In an attempt to save the Croll-Milankovitch theory, Broecker and
Dention (1990) published a paper postulating that large amounts of fresh
water discharged into the north Atlantic about 12,800 years ago when
retreat of the Laurentide ice sheet allowed drainage of glacial Lake
Agassiz to spill eastward into the Atlantic Ocean. They proposed that this
large influx of fresh water might have stopped the formation of descending,
higher-density water in the North Atlantic, thereby interrupting deep-water
currents that distribute large amounts of heat globally and initiating a
short-term return to glacial conditions. If indeed that was the case, then
the Younger Dryas would have been initiated in the North Atlantic and
propagated from there to the Southern Hemisphere and the rest of the world.
Since that would take time, it means that the YD should be 400-1000 years
younger in the Southern Hemisphere and Pacific areas than in the Northern
Hemisphere. However, numerous radiocarbon and cosmogenic dates of the
Younger Dryas all over the world indicate the cooling was globally
synchronous. Thus, the North Atlantic deep current theory is not consistent
with the chronology of the Younger Dryas.
The climatic fluctuations before and after the Younger Dryas, as well
as the fluctuations within it, and the duration of these changes are not
consistent with a single event cause of the YD. Neither cosmic impact or
volcanic eruptions could produce the abrupt, multiple climatic changes that
occurred during the late Pleistocene.On Feb 19, 2025, at 8:21 PM, Brendan McMillion < >>>> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Global average temperature for the past 2k years can be measured
relatively accurately:
Temperature record of the last 2,000 years - Wikipedia
You can see in the graph in this link that the temperature increase
since 1850 is so dramatic that it is double any naturally-occurring
temperature change in the past 2k years.Though there are also estimates of the global average temperature that
go back 150k years:
Analysis: Is it actually hotter now than any time in the last 100,000 years? | PBS News
In this scale, the past 150 years are a vertical tick. No other time in
the past 150k years has the temperature increased so much so quickly. So
there’s no empirical evidence of natural climate change this quick, or any
natural cause that can realistically point to as an explanation.We know causally that increased co2 concentration in the atmosphere
will increase global temperatures because of the greenhouse effect. And
when you graph co2 concentration against global temperature, you see they
correlate exactly:
If carbon dioxide hits a new high every year, why isn’t every year hotter than the last? | NOAA Climate.govOn Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:48 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >>>> wrote:
I try to keep an open mind about it, but am definitely on the
skeptical side of the fence where the Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW)
theory is concerned. I’m always happy to discuss, but would encourage
anyone wishing to do so to watch the full documentary, and don’t be put off
by the inflammatory title and opening sequence – it makes a much better
case than a cursory glance at those things would suggest.I fully agree that the climate has been changing – for as long as the
Earth has been around. If the causes of past swings of cooling and warming
are not fully understood, which I don’t believe they are, I don’t think
natural causes can be ruled out as the main drivers of recently observed
climate change.Pollution can indeed by seen as a form of trespass and violation of
the Non-Aggression Principle, at least when it reaches a certain threshold.
Like most things, it’s a matter of degree. A person exhaling carbon dioxide
by breathing is adding CO2 to the atmosphere as surely as a smog-belching
factory, just on a much smaller scale. I’m dubious of whether there’s any
clear and simple application of property rights that could solve air
pollution issues, as nice as it would be to have such a tidy libertarian
solution.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 5:09 PM, Brendan McMillion < >>>>> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Starchild
I’m happy to talk through any specific scientific arguments with
respect to climate change that you’re interested in. I watched a few
minutes of this documentary. So far it’s just made claims that climate
change is some scheme to make money, or hinder the development of Africa.
The fact is that climate change is human-caused and addressing it is
urgent. I was honestly pretty shocked when you told me you didn’t believe
this. Every year more and more people are dying or losing everything they
have due to disasters directly linked to climate change. 2024 was the
hottest year ever recorded since 1880. Before that, 2023 had been the
hottest year to have ever been recorded. Significant portions of LA just
burned in massive wildfires in winter.Ironically, libertarians should be some of the strongest supporters of
addressing climate change because we know tragedies of the commons can
always be solved through robust property rights. You would never be allowed
to dump your garbage on someone’s doorstep without consent; why is everyone
allowed to dump their garbage into the air for free?On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:26 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >>>>> wrote:
Brendan,
Here’s the British documentary film about anthropogenic global
warming (aka climate change) that I mentioned to you when we were hanging
out yesterday:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQIt’s from 2007, but still the most compelling explanation I’ve found
of what’s really going on with temperature on Earth.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
I understand averaging. While it’s true that equivalent amounts of warming and cooling in different regions would cancel each other out in terms of global average temperatures, I question whether they have enough global temperature data from thousands of years ago to definitively say that rapid North Atlantic warming during, say, the Dryas time period, was fully offset by equivalent cooling elsewhere.
What we do know is that the the planet has been far warmer, and far cooler, at various times in the pre-industrial past, than it is today, and that there were far higher levels of C02 in the atmosphere than is the case today, without this causing the planet to become hotter and hotter, extinguishing life on Earth. I believe it’s also known that warming in some regions (e.g. Greenland) occurred as rapidly as some places have warmed in recent decades.
This among other evidence suggests to me that the Anthropogenic Global Warming theory, and especially the more alarmist predictions based on it, are incorrect. You may disagree – obviously many people do, as the AGW theory is the dominant “conventional wisdom” (even if the exaggerated “97% consensus among climate scientists” claim has been debunked). But I hope you are open-minded enough yourself to watch the documentary I recommended which makes a case for taking a skeptical view on it.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 20, 2025, at 9:09 AM, Brendan McMillion brendanmcmillion@gmail.com wrote:
When the northern hemisphere cools by some amount and the southern hemisphere warms by an equivalent amount, that does not create a change in global average temperature. That is what seems to have happened during the Dryas. That’s also why estimates of global average temperature from that time period don’t spike during the Dryas: Analysis: Is it actually hotter now than any time in the last 100,000 years? | PBS News
The majority of the planet warming substantially and some regions cooling slightly, would in fact still be an increase in global average. That’s what has been objectively measured as happening today.
The documentary won’t do a better job of explaining it because it’s not true. You seem to have a misunderstanding of how averaging works
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 11:15 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
“Cooling in some regions (East Antarctica) accompanied by warming in other regions” is what we’re talking about in the current era, when you believe the global temperature average has been changing (slightly increasing).
But if you want to discuss this, please watch the film, which goes into more detail and does a better job describing it than I can do on the fly.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 11:06 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
The Dryas was cooling in some regions, accompanied by warming in other regions. So no, that wouldn’t be consistent with a change in global average.
Yes, the second link in my second email has a graph of temperature over the past 150k years. There are no comparable changes in global average to the past century.
I don’t know why you say there is no correlation. The third link I provided shows very tight correlation.
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:58 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
So your belief is that average global temperatures did not increase during the Dryas or other past periods? Or just that they have never naturally increased in Earth’s past as rapidly as they are claimed to have increased recently?
How do you explain the lack of correlation between the timelines of modern warming and the increase of CO2 and other “greenhouse gases” in the atmosphere? If we don’t understand why they don’t correlate, isn’t it possible that natural causes have been driving global warming?
Anyway, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the points discussed in the documentary after you’ve had a chance to watch the whole thing.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 10:49 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Nobody has claimed that warming is uniform or global. The claim is that global average temperature is increasing. Different regions of the world are in fact warming at different rates. However all three of the links from my second email have graphs explicitly labeled as measuring global average.
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:38 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Are you sure that recent warming has been uniformly worldwide? I’m by no means certain of that. This report for instance notes that weather stations in eastern Antarctica – a vast area the size of the United States – show temperatures getting colder, not warmer, over the past few decades:
NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4 Decades…Cooling Trend
NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4 Decades…Cooling Trend
notrickszone.com
<cropped-Norway_2020_08-180x180.png>
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trendNASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4 Decades…Cooling Trend https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
notrickszone.com https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend <cropped-Norway_2020_08-180x180.png> https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trendLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 9:46 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
I’ve never heard of the Younger Dryas but it’s wiki page is pretty clear that it was a regional change in temperature. It happened primarily in Greenland, to a lesser extent in Europe, to a lesser extent the northern hemisphere. The given explanation for it is that there was a sudden change in ocean currents. Which makes sense then why it isn’t reflected in global average. There’s the same amount of total heat in the system, the ocean currents just started moving it around differently.
This is the purpose of measuring global average temperature; it captures the total amount of heat energy being retained by the atmosphere, independent of exactly how it’s distributed. Excluding human activities, there have not been similarly rapid changes in global atmosphere composition / average temperature like you claim.
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 9:11 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Below is a message I posted to the LPSF list and others back in 2020 that addresses this argument of unprecedented recent temperature rise. This warming has not correlated well with human emissions of carbon dioxide and other “greenhouse gases”. There are more details on this in the film:
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
youtube.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQThe Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
From: Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net>
Subject: [bayareafaeries] Rapid, dramatic climate change the media are ignoring?
Date: March 8, 2020 at 9:14:43 PM PDT
To: LPSF Discussion List <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>, Bay Area Faeries <bayareafaeries@groups.queernet.org mailto:bayareafaeries@groups.queernet.org>, Bay Area Liberty <ba-liberty@yahoogroups.com mailto:ba-liberty@yahoogroups.com>, LibertarianHorizons@groups.io mailto:LibertarianHorizons@groups.io, SFBay Cannabis Community List <SFBayCannabisCommunity@yahoogroups.com mailto:SFBayCannabisCommunity@yahoogroups.com>, CALibs@yahoogroups.com mailto:CALibs@yahoogroups.com, LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com mailto:LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com, bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com mailto:bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.comEarth’s climate has been changing as long as the planet has existed, and the planet has been both colder and warmer at various times in the past than it is now. Human activity played essentially zero role in most of these changes, since they happened before the industrial era. These facts are not controversial, but they tend to be downplayed in media discussions of climate change and how it allegedly presents a serious threat to humans and the planet.
When I’ve pointed out this long history of “natural” (non-human-caused) climate change to folks who believe the mainstream narrative that human activity is causing major climatic change now and that this is a major problem, a response I’ve often gotten is that this time is different because climate change in the past has never been as rapid or dramatic as it has recently. While that point seems to be taken more on faith than on any particular knowledge of past temperature records, it has been difficult to dispute because the temperature record of Earth’s climate history is usually framed in long periods of geological time rather than looking at what temperature changes occurred in a few brief decades.
The article below, however, discusses scientific findings based on studying the isotopes in Greenland ice core samples which show that some of the global warming that took place thousands of years ago was more rapid and dramatic than recent global warming allegedly caused by humans:
“The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene. Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming 14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between ~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core suggests that Greenland was more than ~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas occurred in only about 40 to 50. years.” [emphasis added]
By way of comparison, advocates of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory (the idea that humans are responsible for global warming) are predicting less warming than this over a longer time period even if none of their recommendations to combat global warming are followed. The International Energy Agency (IEA) recently predicted we’re “on track for about 3 degrees Celsius of warming by 2100”, while the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) predicts warming of about 4° Celsius by 2100 in its “worse case” scenario of coal use growing dramatically during the 21st century – an outcome that many now view as unrealistic (see Climate Change Worst-Case Scenario Now Looks Unrealistic).
Again, that’s 4° of warming over 80 years being predicted by AGW theory proponents as the worst case scenario if humans continue to burn fossil fuels without regard to climate change, versus 10° of warming that occurred historically over a 40 or 50 year period some 11,500 years ago – if you trust the science.
Also of note is the graph accompanying the story, which shows in dramatic visual terms how insignificant recent warming is in comparison to this historical warming.
Now to be clear, the point is not that 3 or 4 degrees of global warming in the next 80 years would not be disruptive. I’m sure it would be, to both the environment and the economy. There might be good reasons to try to tamper with Earth’s climate in order to prevent such a change.
But this evidence of more rapid dramatic warming having occurred in the past suggests that even if the Earth does get 3 or 4 degrees warmer by 2100, it would not herald irreversible doom as some alarmists would have us believe. The science is telling us that the planet warmed more rapidly in the past during a shorter time frame, and then temperatures eventually more or less leveled out. Earth didn’t just continue to get warmer and warmer in a self-perpetuating, out-of-control cycle.
Another important thing to understand is that scientists aren’t sure what caused the rapid warming that ended the Younger Dryas period. This lack of understanding of “natural” causes of climate change suggests that if whatever caused the rapid warming 11,500 years ago, also caused the milder warming the Earth has experienced recently, we wouldn’t know. The assumption that recent warming must be due to human activity because “nothing like this has ever happened before”, does not accurately reflect the historical temperature record.
All this is of course just my take on the data presented below. I’m interested in hearing from AGW proponents who have a good response to this. If you know one, please invite them to comment!
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
The Intriguing Problem Of The Younger Dryas—What Does It Mean And What Caused It?
Anthony Watts https://wattsupwiththat.com/author/wattsupwiththat/ / June 19, 2012 https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/
This is a follow up posting to Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story! http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!WUWT readers may recall this recent story: New evidence of Younger Dryas extraterrestrial impact The story below…
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/Guest post by Don J. Easterbrook
Dept. of Geology, Western Washington University.
The Younger Dryas was a period of rapid cooling in the late Pleistocene 12,800 to 11,500 calendar years ago. It followed closely on the heels of a dramatically abrupt warming that brought the last Ice Age to a close (17,500 calendar years ago), lasted for about 1,300 years, then ended as abruptly as it started. The cause of these remarkably sudden climate changes has puzzled geologists and climatologists for decades and despite much effort to find the answer, can still only be considered enigmatic.
The Younger Dryas interruption of the global warming that resulted in the abrupt, wholesale melting of the huge late Pleistocene ice sheets was first discovered in European pollen studies about 75 years ago. Terrestrial plants and pollen indicate that arboreal forests were replaced by tundra vegetation during a cool climate. This cool period was named after the pale yellow flower Dryas octopetella, an arctic wildflower typical of cold, open, Arctic environments. The Younger Dryas return to a cold, glacial climate was first considered to be a regional event restricted to Europe, but later studies have shown that it was a world-wide event. The problem became even more complicated when oxygen isotope data from ice cores in Antarctica and Greenland showed not only the Younger Dryas cooling, but several other shorter cooling/warming events, now known as Dansgaard-Oerscher events.
The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene. Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming 14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between ~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core suggests that Greenland was more than~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas occurred in only about 40 to 50 years.
<clip_image002.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0021.jpg
Figure 1. Temperature fluctuations over the past 17,000 years showing the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas. The late Pleistocene cold glacial climate that built immense ice sheets terminated suddenly about 14,500 years ago (1), causing glaciers to melt dramatically. About 12,800 years ago, after about 2000 years of fluctuating climate (2-4), temperatures plunged suddenly (5) and remained cool for 1300 years (6). About 11,500 years ago, the climate again warmed suddenly and the Younger Dryas ended (7).Radiocarbon and cosmogenic dating of glacial moraines in regions all over the world and abrupt changes in oxygen isotope ratios in ice cores indicate that the Younger Dryas cooling was globally synchronous. Evidence of Younger Dryas advance of continental ice sheets is reported from the Scandinavian ice sheet, the Laurentide ice sheet in eastern North America, the Cordilleran ice sheet in western North America, and the Siberian ice sheet in Russia. Alpine and ice cap glaciers also responded to the abrupt Younger Dryas cooling in both the Northern and Southern hemispheres, e.g., many places in the Rocky Mts. of the U.S. and Canada, the Cascade Mts. of Washington, the European Alps, the Southern Alps of New Zealand, and the Andes Mts. in Patagonia of South America.
<clip_image004.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0041.jpg
Figure 2. Temperature fluctuations over the past 15,000 years showing the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas and other warming and cooling periods, the Oldest Dryas (cool), Bölllng (warm), Older Dryas (cool), Allerød (warm), InterAllerød (cool), and Younger Dryas (cool).<clip_image006.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image006.jpg
Figure 3. Oxygen isotope record from the Greenland ice core showing an abrupt temperature drop 12,800 years ago, 1300 years of cool climate, and sudden warming 11,500 years ago.The Younger Dryas had multiple glacial advances and retreats
The Younger Dryas was not just a single climatic event. Late Pleistocene climatic warming and cooling not only occurred before and after the YD, but also within it. All three major Pleistocene ice sheets, the Scandinavian, Laurentide, and Cordilleran, experienced double moraine-building episodes, as did a large number of alpine glaciers. Multiple YD moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet have long been documented and a vast literature exists. The Scandinavian Ice Sheet readvanced during the YD and built two extensive end moraines across southern Finland, the central Swedish moraines, and the Ra moraines of southwestern Norway(Fig. 4). 14C dates indicate they were separated by about 500 years.
<clip_image008.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image008.jpg
Figure 4. Double Younger Dryas moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet.Among the first multiple YD moraines to be recognized were the Loch Lomond moraines of the Scotish Highlands. Alpine glaciers and icefields in Britain readvanced or re-formed during the YD and built extensive moraines at the glacier margins. The largest YD icefield at this time was the Scotish Highland glacier complex, but smaller alpine glaciers occurred in the Hebrides and Cairngorms of Scotland, in the English Lake District, and in Ireland. The Loch Lomond moraines consist of multiple moraines. Radiocarbon dates constrain the age of the Loch Lomond moraines between 12.9 and 11.5 calendar years ago.
Multiple Younger Dryas moraines of alpine glaciers also occur throughout the world, e.g., the European Alps, the Rocky Mts., Alaska, the Cascade Range, the Andes, the New Zealand Alps, and elsewhere.
<clip_image010.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image010.jpg
Figure 5. Double Younger Dryas moraines at Titcomb Lakes in the Wind River Range of Wyoming.Implications
The multiple nature of YD moraines in widely separated areas of the world and in both hemispheres indicates that the YD consisted of more than a single climatic event and these occurred virtually simultaneously worldwide. Both ice sheets and alpine glaciers were sensitive to the multiple YD phases. The GISP2 ice core shows two peaks within the YD that match the glacial record. The absence of a time lag between the N and S Hemispheres glacial fluctuations precludes an ocean cause and is not consistent with the North Atlantic Deep Ocean Water hypothesis for the cause of the Younger Dryas, nor with a cosmic impact or volcanic origin.
Both 14C and 10Be production rates in the upper atmosphere changed during the YD. 14C and 10Be are isotopes produced by collision of incoming radiation with atoms in the upper atmosphere. The change in their production rates means that the Younger Dryas was associated with changes in the amount of radiation entering the Earth’s atmosphere, leading to the intriguing possibility that the YD was caused by solar fluctuations.
Why the Younger Dryas is important
What can we learn from all this? The ice core isotope data were hugely significant because they showed that the Younger Dryas, as well as the other late Pleistocene warming and cooling events could not possibly have been caused by slow, Croll-Milankovitch orbital forcing, which occurs over many tens of thousands of years. The ice core isotope data thus essentially killed the Croll-Milankovitch theory as the cause of the Ice Ages.
In an attempt to save the Croll-Milankovitch theory, Broecker and Dention (1990) published a paper postulating that large amounts of fresh water discharged into the north Atlantic about 12,800 years ago when retreat of the Laurentide ice sheet allowed drainage of glacial Lake Agassiz to spill eastward into the Atlantic Ocean. They proposed that this large influx of fresh water might have stopped the formation of descending, higher-density water in the North Atlantic, thereby interrupting deep-water currents that distribute large amounts of heat globally and initiating a short-term return to glacial conditions. If indeed that was the case, then the Younger Dryas would have been initiated in the North Atlantic and propagated from there to the Southern Hemisphere and the rest of the world. Since that would take time, it means that the YD should be 400-1000 years younger in the Southern Hemisphere and Pacific areas than in the Northern Hemisphere. However, numerous radiocarbon and cosmogenic dates of the Younger Dryas all over the world indicate the cooling was globally synchronous. Thus, the North Atlantic deep current theory is not consistent with the chronology of the Younger Dryas.
The climatic fluctuations before and after the Younger Dryas, as well as the fluctuations within it, and the duration of these changes are not consistent with a single event cause of the YD. Neither cosmic impact or volcanic eruptions could produce the abrupt, multiple climatic changes that occurred during the late Pleistocene.
On Feb 19, 2025, at 8:21 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Global average temperature for the past 2k years can be measured relatively accurately: Temperature record of the last 2,000 years - Wikipedia
You can see in the graph in this link that the temperature increase since 1850 is so dramatic that it is double any naturally-occurring temperature change in the past 2k years.Though there are also estimates of the global average temperature that go back 150k years: Analysis: Is it actually hotter now than any time in the last 100,000 years? | PBS News
In this scale, the past 150 years are a vertical tick. No other time in the past 150k years has the temperature increased so much so quickly. So there’s no empirical evidence of natural climate change this quick, or any natural cause that can realistically point to as an explanation.We know causally that increased co2 concentration in the atmosphere will increase global temperatures because of the greenhouse effect. And when you graph co2 concentration against global temperature, you see they correlate exactly: If carbon dioxide hits a new high every year, why isn’t every year hotter than the last? | NOAA Climate.gov
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:48 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
I try to keep an open mind about it, but am definitely on the skeptical side of the fence where the Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory is concerned. I’m always happy to discuss, but would encourage anyone wishing to do so to watch the full documentary, and don’t be put off by the inflammatory title and opening sequence – it makes a much better case than a cursory glance at those things would suggest.
I fully agree that the climate has been changing – for as long as the Earth has been around. If the causes of past swings of cooling and warming are not fully understood, which I don’t believe they are, I don’t think natural causes can be ruled out as the main drivers of recently observed climate change.
Pollution can indeed by seen as a form of trespass and violation of the Non-Aggression Principle, at least when it reaches a certain threshold. Like most things, it’s a matter of degree. A person exhaling carbon dioxide by breathing is adding CO2 to the atmosphere as surely as a smog-belching factory, just on a much smaller scale. I’m dubious of whether there’s any clear and simple application of property rights that could solve air pollution issues, as nice as it would be to have such a tidy libertarian solution.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 5:09 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Starchild
I’m happy to talk through any specific scientific arguments with respect to climate change that you’re interested in. I watched a few minutes of this documentary. So far it’s just made claims that climate change is some scheme to make money, or hinder the development of Africa. The fact is that climate change is human-caused and addressing it is urgent. I was honestly pretty shocked when you told me you didn’t believe this. Every year more and more people are dying or losing everything they have due to disasters directly linked to climate change. 2024 was the hottest year ever recorded since 1880. Before that, 2023 had been the hottest year to have ever been recorded. Significant portions of LA just burned in massive wildfires in winter.
Ironically, libertarians should be some of the strongest supporters of addressing climate change because we know tragedies of the commons can always be solved through robust property rights. You would never be allowed to dump your garbage on someone’s doorstep without consent; why is everyone allowed to dump their garbage into the air for free?
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:26 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Brendan,
Here’s the British documentary film about anthropogenic global warming (aka climate change) that I mentioned to you when we were hanging out yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
youtube.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQThe Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQIt’s from 2007, but still the most compelling explanation I’ve found of what’s really going on with temperature on Earth.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Responses inline,
I understand averaging. While it’s true that equivalent amounts of warming
and cooling in different regions would cancel each other out in terms of
global average temperatures, I question whether they have enough global
temperature data from thousands of years ago to definitively say that rapid
North Atlantic warming during, say, the Dryas time period, was fully offset
by equivalent cooling elsewhere.
You’re discounting the evidence that I’ve provided that the Dryas did not
have an effect on global temperature while also not providing any of your
own.
What we *do *know is that the the planet has been far warmer, and far
cooler, at various times in the pre-industrial past, than it is today, and
that there were *far *higher levels of C02 in the atmosphere than is the
case today, without this causing the planet to become hotter and hotter,
extinguishing life on Earth. I believe it’s also known that warming in some
regions (e.g. Greenland) occurred as rapidly as some places have warmed in
recent decades.
Nobody credible is claiming that global warming will “extinguish life on
Earth”. Cause the extinction of many many species? Yes. The IPCC publishes
specific predictions of what effects different degrees of warming will
have:
Climate change is an externality: the people that pay for fixing it are not
the people that benefited from causing it. The recent LA wildfires were
caused by changing weather patterns directly attributable to climate
change. Tens of thousands of people lost their homes and will now have to
relocate or rebuild at great personal cost to themselves (even accounting
for insurance). Coffee costs twice what it did a year ago because of
massive crop failures. Chocolate costs three times what it did a year ago,
also because of massive crop failures.
Are each of these 100% attributable to climate change? No. But a lot of it
is. And the people that benefited massively financially from being allowed
to pollute the atmosphere for free share these costs equally with people
that didn’t. That’s why it’s a moral imperative to end. Otherwise we will
have a tragedy of the commons where a few people benefit from making the
lives of everyone else harder.
On Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 5:16 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:
This among other evidence suggests to me that the Anthropogenic Global
Warming theory, and especially the more alarmist predictions based on it,
are incorrect. You may disagree – obviously many people do, as the AGW
theory *is *the dominant “conventional wisdom” (even if the exaggerated
“97% consensus among climate scientists” claim has been debunked). But I
hope you are open-minded enough yourself to watch the documentary I
recommended which makes a case for taking a skeptical view on it.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 20, 2025, at 9:09 AM, Brendan McMillion brendanmcmillion@gmail.com > wrote:
When the northern hemisphere cools by some amount and the southern
hemisphere warms by an equivalent amount, that does not create a change in
global average temperature. That is what seems to have happened during the
Dryas. That’s also why estimates of global average temperature from that
time period don’t spike during the Dryas:
Analysis: Is it actually hotter now than any time in the last 100,000 years? | PBS NewsThe majority of the planet warming substantially and some regions cooling
slightly, would in fact still be an increase in global average. That’s what
has been objectively measured as happening today.The documentary won’t do a better job of explaining it because it’s not
true. You seem to have a misunderstanding of how averaging worksOn Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 11:15 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net > wrote:
“Cooling in some regions (East Antarctica) accompanied by warming in
other regions” is what we’re talking about in the current era, when you
believe the global temperature average *has *been changing (slightly
increasing).But if you want to discuss this, please watch the film, which goes into
more detail and does a better job describing it than I can do on the fly.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 11:06 PM, Brendan McMillion < >> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
The Dryas was cooling in some regions, accompanied by warming in other
regions. So no, that wouldn’t be consistent with a change in global average.Yes, the second link in my second email has a graph of temperature over
the past 150k years. There are no comparable changes in global average to
the past century.I don’t know why you say there is no correlation. The third link I
provided shows very tight correlation.On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:58 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >> wrote:
So your belief is that average global temperatures did not increase
during the Dryas or other past periods? Or just that they have never
naturally increased in Earth’s past as rapidly as they are claimed to have
increased recently?How do you explain the lack of correlation between the timelines of
modern warming and the increase of CO2 and other “greenhouse gases” in the
atmosphere? If we don’t understand why they don’t correlate, isn’t it
possible that natural causes have been driving global warming?Anyway, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the points discussed
in the documentary after you’ve had a chance to watch the whole thing.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 10:49 PM, Brendan McMillion < >>> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Nobody has claimed that warming is uniform or global. The claim is that
global average temperature is increasing. Different regions of the world
are in fact warming at different rates. However all three of the links from
my second email have graphs explicitly labeled as measuring global average.On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:38 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >>> wrote:
Are you sure that recent warming has been uniformly worldwide? I’m by
no means certain of that. This report for instance notes that weather
stations in eastern Antarctica – a vast area the size of the United States
– show temperatures getting colder, not warmer, over the past few decades:NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4 Decades…Cooling Trend
NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4
Decades…Cooling Trend
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
notrickszone.com
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
<cropped-Norway_2020_08-180x180.png>
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trendLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 9:46 PM, Brendan McMillion < >>>> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
I’ve never heard of the Younger Dryas but it’s wiki page is pretty
clear that it was a regional change in temperature. It happened primarily
in Greenland, to a lesser extent in Europe, to a lesser extent the northern
hemisphere. The given explanation for it is that there was a sudden change
in ocean currents. Which makes sense then why it isn’t reflected in global
average. There’s the same amount of total heat in the system, the ocean
currents just started moving it around differently.This is the purpose of measuring global average temperature; it
captures the total amount of heat energy being retained by the atmosphere,
independent of exactly how it’s distributed. Excluding human activities,
there have not been similarly rapid changes in global atmosphere
composition / average temperature like you claim.On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 9:11 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >>>> wrote:
Below is a message I posted to the LPSF list and others back in 2020
that addresses this argument of unprecedented recent temperature rise. This
warming has not correlated well with human emissions of carbon dioxide and
other “greenhouse gases”. There are more details on this in the film:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
*From: *Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net
*Subject: *[bayareafaeries] Rapid, dramatic climate change the media
are ignoring?
*Date: *March 8, 2020 at 9:14:43 PM PDT
*To: *LPSF Discussion List lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Bay Area
Faeries bayareafaeries@groups.queernet.org, Bay Area Liberty <
ba-liberty@yahoogroups.com>, LibertarianHorizons@groups.io, SFBay
Cannabis Community List SFBayCannabisCommunity@yahoogroups.com,
CALibs@yahoogroups.com, LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com,
bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.comEarth’s climate has been changing as long as the planet has existed,
and the planet has been both colder and warmer at various times in the past
than it is now. Human activity played essentially zero role in most of
these changes, since they happened before the industrial era. These facts
are not controversial, but they tend to be downplayed in media discussions
of climate change and how it allegedly presents a serious threat to humans
and the planet.When I’ve pointed out this long history of “natural”
(non-human-caused) climate change to folks who believe the mainstream
narrative that human activity is causing major climatic change now and that
this is a major problem, a response I’ve often gotten is that this
time is different because climate change in the past has never been as
rapid or dramatic as it has recently. While that point seems to be
taken more on faith than on any particular knowledge of past temperature
records, it has been difficult to dispute because the temperature record of
Earth’s climate history is usually framed in long periods of geological
time rather than looking at what temperature changes occurred in a few
brief decades.The article below, however, discusses scientific findings based on
studying the isotopes in Greenland ice core samples which show that some of
the global warming that took place thousands of years ago was more
rapid and dramatic* than recent global warming allegedly caused by
humans*:“The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt
climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene.
Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming
14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into
rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between
~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the
beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt
climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the
most precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice
core stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the
Greenland Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially
important because the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has
been determined by the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a
very accurate chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by
measurement of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2
Greenland ice core suggests that Greenland was more than ~10°C colder
during the Younger Dryas and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended
the Younger Dryas occurred in only about 40 to 50. years.” [emphasis
added]By way of comparison, advocates of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW)
theory (the idea that humans are responsible for global warming) are
predicting less warming than this over a longer time period even
if none of their recommendations to combat global warming are followed. The
International Energy Agency (IEA) recently predicted we’re “on track for
about 3 degrees Celsius of warming by 2100”, while the Intergovernmental
Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) predicts warming of about 4*° *Celsius
by 2100 in its “worse case” scenario of coal use growing dramatically
during the 21st century – an outcome that many now view as
unrealistic (see
Climate Change Worst-Case Scenario Now Looks Unrealistic
).Again, that’s 4° of warming over 80 years being predicted by AGW
theory proponents as the worst case scenario if humans continue to burn
fossil fuels without regard to climate change, versus 10**° of
warming that occurred historically over a 40 or 50 year period some 11,500
years ago – if you trust the science.Also of note is the graph accompanying the story, which shows in
dramatic visual terms how insignificant recent warming is in comparison to
this historical warming.Now to be clear, the point is not that 3 or 4 degrees of global
warming in the next 80 years would not be disruptive. I’m sure it would be,
to both the environment and the economy. There might be good
reasons to try to tamper with Earth’s climate in order to prevent such a
change.But this evidence of more rapid dramatic warming having occurred in
the past suggests that even if the Earth does get 3 or 4 degrees warmer by
2100, it would not herald irreversible doom as some alarmists would have us
believe. The science is telling us that the planet warmed more
rapidly in the past during a shorter time frame, and then
temperatures eventually more or less leveled out. Earth didn’t just
continue to get warmer and warmer in a self-perpetuating, out-of-control
cycle.Another important thing to understand is that scientists aren’t sure
what caused the rapid warming that ended the Younger Dryas period.
This lack of understanding of “natural” causes of climate change suggests
that if whatever caused the rapid warming 11,500 years ago, also caused the
milder warming the Earth has experienced recently, we wouldn’t know.
The assumption that recent warming must be due to human activity
because “nothing like this has ever happened before”, does not accurately
reflect the historical temperature record.All this is of course just my take on the data presented below. I’m
interested in hearing from AGW proponents who have a good response to this.
If you know one, please invite them to comment!Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
The Intriguing Problem Of The Younger Dryas—What Does It Mean And What
Caused It?
Anthony Watts https://wattsupwiththat.com/author/wattsupwiththat/ / June
19, 2012
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/This is a follow up posting to Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!WUWT readers may recall this recent story: New evidence of Younger
Dryas extraterrestrial impact The story below…http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Guest post by Don J. Easterbrook
Dept. of Geology, Western Washington University.
The Younger Dryas was a period of rapid cooling in the late
Pleistocene 12,800 to 11,500 calendar years ago. It followed closely on the
heels of a dramatically abrupt warming that brought the last Ice Age to a
close (17,500 calendar years ago), lasted for about 1,300 years, then ended
as abruptly as it started. The cause of these remarkably sudden climate
changes has puzzled geologists and climatologists for decades and despite
much effort to find the answer, can still only be considered enigmatic.The Younger Dryas interruption of the global warming that resulted in
the abrupt, wholesale melting of the huge late Pleistocene ice sheets was
first discovered in European pollen studies about 75 years ago. Terrestrial
plants and pollen indicate that arboreal forests were replaced by tundra
vegetation during a cool climate. This cool period was named after the pale
yellow flower Dryas octopetella, an arctic wildflower typical of cold,
open, Arctic environments. The Younger Dryas return to a cold, glacial
climate was first considered to be a regional event restricted to Europe,
but later studies have shown that it was a world-wide event. The problem
became even more complicated when oxygen isotope data from ice cores in
Antarctica and Greenland showed not only the Younger Dryas cooling, but
several other shorter cooling/warming events, now known as
Dansgaard-Oerscher events.The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt
climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene.
Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming
14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into
rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between
~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the
beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic
warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise
record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core
stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland
Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because
the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by
the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate
chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement
of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core
suggests that Greenland was more than~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas
and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas
occurred in only about 40 to 50 years.<clip_image002.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0021.jpgFigure 1. Temperature fluctuations over the past 17,000 years showing
the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas. The late Pleistocene cold
glacial climate that built immense ice sheets terminated suddenly about
14,500 years ago (1), causing glaciers to melt dramatically. About 12,800
years ago, after about 2000 years of fluctuating climate (2-4),
temperatures plunged suddenly (5) and remained cool for 1300 years (6).
About 11,500 years ago, the climate again warmed suddenly and the Younger
Dryas ended (7).Radiocarbon and cosmogenic dating of glacial moraines in regions all
over the world and abrupt changes in oxygen isotope ratios in ice cores
indicate that the Younger Dryas cooling was globally synchronous. Evidence
of Younger Dryas advance of continental ice sheets is reported from the
Scandinavian ice sheet, the Laurentide ice sheet in eastern North America,
the Cordilleran ice sheet in western North America, and the Siberian ice
sheet in Russia. Alpine and ice cap glaciers also responded to the abrupt
Younger Dryas cooling in both the Northern and Southern hemispheres, e.g.,
many places in the Rocky Mts. of the U.S. and Canada, the Cascade Mts. of
Washington, the European Alps, the Southern Alps of New Zealand, and the
Andes Mts. in Patagonia of South America.<clip_image004.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0041.jpgFigure 2. Temperature fluctuations over the past 15,000 years showing
the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas and other warming and cooling
periods, the Oldest Dryas (cool), Bölllng (warm), Older Dryas (cool),
Allerød (warm), InterAllerød (cool), and Younger Dryas (cool).<clip_image006.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image006.jpgFigure 3. Oxygen isotope record from the Greenland ice core showing
an abrupt temperature drop 12,800 years ago, 1300 years of cool climate,
and sudden warming 11,500 years ago.The Younger Dryas had multiple glacial advances and retreats
The Younger Dryas was not just a single climatic event. Late
Pleistocene climatic warming and cooling not only occurred before and after
the YD, but also within it. All three major Pleistocene ice sheets, the
Scandinavian, Laurentide, and Cordilleran, experienced double
moraine-building episodes, as did a large number of alpine glaciers.
Multiple YD moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet have long been
documented and a vast literature exists. The Scandinavian Ice Sheet
readvanced during the YD and built two extensive end moraines across
southern Finland, the central Swedish moraines, and the Ra moraines of
southwestern Norway(Fig. 4). 14C dates indicate they were separated
by about 500 years.<clip_image008.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image008.jpgFigure 4. Double Younger Dryas moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet.
Among the first multiple YD moraines to be recognized were the Loch
Lomond moraines of the Scotish Highlands. Alpine glaciers and icefields in
Britain readvanced or re-formed during the YD and built extensive moraines
at the glacier margins. The largest YD icefield at this time was the
Scotish Highland glacier complex, but smaller alpine glaciers occurred in
the Hebrides and Cairngorms of Scotland, in the English Lake District, and
in Ireland. The Loch Lomond moraines consist of multiple moraines.
Radiocarbon dates constrain the age of the Loch Lomond moraines between
12.9 and 11.5 calendar years ago.Multiple Younger Dryas moraines of alpine glaciers also occur
throughout the world, e.g., the European Alps, the Rocky Mts., Alaska, the
Cascade Range, the Andes, the New Zealand Alps, and elsewhere.<clip_image010.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image010.jpgFigure 5. Double Younger Dryas moraines at Titcomb Lakes in the Wind
River Range of Wyoming.Implications
The multiple nature of YD moraines in widely separated areas of the
world and in both hemispheres indicates that the YD consisted of more than
a single climatic event and these occurred virtually simultaneously
worldwide. Both ice sheets and alpine glaciers were sensitive to the
multiple YD phases. The GISP2 ice core shows two peaks within the YD that
match the glacial record. The absence of a time lag between the N and S
Hemispheres glacial fluctuations precludes an ocean cause and is not
consistent with the North Atlantic Deep Ocean Water hypothesis for the
cause of the Younger Dryas, nor with a cosmic impact or volcanic origin.Both 14C and 10Be production rates in the upper atmosphere changed
during the YD. 14C and 10Be are isotopes produced by collision of
incoming radiation with atoms in the upper atmosphere. The change in their
production rates means that the Younger Dryas was associated with changes
in the amount of radiation entering the Earth’s atmosphere, leading to the
intriguing possibility that the YD was caused by solar fluctuations.Why the Younger Dryas is important
What can we learn from all this? The ice core isotope data were hugely
significant because they showed that the Younger Dryas, as well as the
other late Pleistocene warming and cooling events could not possibly have
been caused by slow, Croll-Milankovitch orbital forcing, which occurs over
many tens of thousands of years. The ice core isotope data thus essentially
killed the Croll-Milankovitch theory as the cause of the Ice Ages.In an attempt to save the Croll-Milankovitch theory, Broecker and
Dention (1990) published a paper postulating that large amounts of fresh
water discharged into the north Atlantic about 12,800 years ago when
retreat of the Laurentide ice sheet allowed drainage of glacial Lake
Agassiz to spill eastward into the Atlantic Ocean. They proposed that this
large influx of fresh water might have stopped the formation of descending,
higher-density water in the North Atlantic, thereby interrupting deep-water
currents that distribute large amounts of heat globally and initiating a
short-term return to glacial conditions. If indeed that was the case, then
the Younger Dryas would have been initiated in the North Atlantic and
propagated from there to the Southern Hemisphere and the rest of the world.
Since that would take time, it means that the YD should be 400-1000 years
younger in the Southern Hemisphere and Pacific areas than in the Northern
Hemisphere. However, numerous radiocarbon and cosmogenic dates of the
Younger Dryas all over the world indicate the cooling was globally
synchronous. Thus, the North Atlantic deep current theory is not consistent
with the chronology of the Younger Dryas.
The climatic fluctuations before and after the Younger Dryas, as well
as the fluctuations within it, and the duration of these changes are not
consistent with a single event cause of the YD. Neither cosmic impact or
volcanic eruptions could produce the abrupt, multiple climatic changes that
occurred during the late Pleistocene.On Feb 19, 2025, at 8:21 PM, Brendan McMillion < >>>>> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Global average temperature for the past 2k years can be measured
relatively accurately:
Temperature record of the last 2,000 years - Wikipedia
You can see in the graph in this link that the temperature increase
since 1850 is so dramatic that it is double any naturally-occurring
temperature change in the past 2k years.Though there are also estimates of the global average temperature that
go back 150k years:
Analysis: Is it actually hotter now than any time in the last 100,000 years? | PBS News
In this scale, the past 150 years are a vertical tick. No other time
in the past 150k years has the temperature increased so much so quickly. So
there’s no empirical evidence of natural climate change this quick, or any
natural cause that can realistically point to as an explanation.We know causally that increased co2 concentration in the atmosphere
will increase global temperatures because of the greenhouse effect. And
when you graph co2 concentration against global temperature, you see they
correlate exactly:
If carbon dioxide hits a new high every year, why isn’t every year hotter than the last? | NOAA Climate.govOn Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:48 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >>>>> wrote:
I try to keep an open mind about it, but am definitely on the
skeptical side of the fence where the Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW)
theory is concerned. I’m always happy to discuss, but would encourage
anyone wishing to do so to watch the full documentary, and don’t be put off
by the inflammatory title and opening sequence – it makes a much better
case than a cursory glance at those things would suggest.I fully agree that the climate has been changing – for as long as the
Earth has been around. If the causes of past swings of cooling and warming
are not fully understood, which I don’t believe they are, I don’t think
natural causes can be ruled out as the main drivers of recently observed
climate change.Pollution can indeed by seen as a form of trespass and violation of
the Non-Aggression Principle, at least when it reaches a certain threshold.
Like most things, it’s a matter of degree. A person exhaling carbon dioxide
by breathing is adding CO2 to the atmosphere as surely as a smog-belching
factory, just on a much smaller scale. I’m dubious of whether there’s any
clear and simple application of property rights that could solve air
pollution issues, as nice as it would be to have such a tidy libertarian
solution.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 5:09 PM, Brendan McMillion < >>>>>> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Starchild
I’m happy to talk through any specific scientific arguments with
respect to climate change that you’re interested in. I watched a few
minutes of this documentary. So far it’s just made claims that climate
change is some scheme to make money, or hinder the development of Africa.
The fact is that climate change is human-caused and addressing it is
urgent. I was honestly pretty shocked when you told me you didn’t believe
this. Every year more and more people are dying or losing everything they
have due to disasters directly linked to climate change. 2024 was the
hottest year ever recorded since 1880. Before that, 2023 had been the
hottest year to have ever been recorded. Significant portions of LA just
burned in massive wildfires in winter.Ironically, libertarians should be some of the strongest supporters
of addressing climate change because we know tragedies of the commons can
always be solved through robust property rights. You would never be allowed
to dump your garbage on someone’s doorstep without consent; why is everyone
allowed to dump their garbage into the air for free?On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:26 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >>>>>> wrote:
Brendan,
Here’s the British documentary film about anthropogenic global
warming (aka climate change) that I mentioned to you when we were hanging
out yesterday:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQIt’s from 2007, but still the most compelling explanation I’ve found
of what’s really going on with temperature on Earth.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Brendan,
My further responses inline below…
Responses inline,
I understand averaging. While it’s true that equivalent amounts of warming and cooling in different regions would cancel each other out in terms of global average temperatures, I question whether they have enough global temperature data from thousands of years ago to definitively say that rapid North Atlantic warming during, say, the Dryas time period, was fully offset by equivalent cooling elsewhere.
You’re discounting the evidence that I’ve provided that the Dryas did not have an effect on global temperature while also not providing any of your own.
This site, which appears to accept AGW theory (it includes a passing reference to "the greenhouse world we are creating through fossil fuel burning”), nevertheless states that the Dryas period was an example of abrupt (non-human-caused) climate change, and that its effects were worldwide:
https://ocp.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/div/ocp/arch/examples.shtml
https://ocp.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/div/ocp/arch/examples.shtml
Two examples of abrupt climate change
ldeo.columbia.edu
What we do know is that the the planet has been far warmer, and far cooler, at various times in the pre-industrial past, than it is today, and that there were far higher levels of C02 in the atmosphere than is the case today, without this causing the planet to become hotter and hotter, extinguishing life on Earth. I believe it’s also known that warming in some regions (e.g. Greenland) occurred as rapidly as some places have warmed in recent decades.
Nobody credible is claiming that global warming will “extinguish life on Earth”. Cause the extinction of many many species? Yes. The IPCC publishes specific predictions of what effects different degrees of warming will have: Myth-buster: Why two degrees of global warming is worse than it sounds » Yale Climate Connections
The link above is a good example of what I consider unsubstantiated climate alarmism. Its author(s) assert for instance that every degree of warming brings with it an “increased likelihood” of “loss of biodiversity”.
How does this assertion square with the fact that very warm tropical regions tend to have far greater biodiversity than very cold polar regions? Are the author(s) taking natural extinctions into account – the overwhelming majority of species that have ever existed are now extinct after all, and in most cases humans had nothing to do with it – or the possibility of extinctions being caused by other human activities such as habitat destruction rather than by climate change? No evidence is presented.
Climate change is an externality: the people that pay for fixing it are not the people that benefited from causing it. The recent LA wildfires were caused by changing weather patterns directly attributable to climate change. Tens of thousands of people lost their homes and will now have to relocate or rebuild at great personal cost to themselves (even accounting for insurance). Coffee costs twice what it did a year ago because of massive crop failures. Chocolate costs three times what it did a year ago, also because of massive crop failures.
Are each of these 100% attributable to climate change? No. But a lot of it is. And the people that benefited massively financially from being allowed to pollute the atmosphere for free share these costs equally with people that didn’t. That’s why it’s a moral imperative to end. Otherwise we will have a tragedy of the commons where a few people benefit from making the lives of everyone else harder.
You note the recent L.A. wildfires, along with changes in coffee and chocolate prices, and write that “a lot” of this is due to climate change, without stating how much you mean by “a lot”, or on what evidence you are basing your assessment.
Even if we assume that statement is true, it does not necessarily follow that the climate change is human-caused, or that if it is human-caused, that the totality of its effects are more negative than positive.
Furthermore, even if human activity were mostly responsible for global warming, and even if the human impact on warming is more harmful than beneficial (neither of which assumptions I consider proven), there would still be costs involved in trying to counteract it, and it is not necessarily the case that the harms associated with those costs would be less than the harms associated with the warming itself.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 21, 2025, at 11:07 AM, Brendan McMillion brendanmcmillion@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 5:16 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
This among other evidence suggests to me that the Anthropogenic Global Warming theory, and especially the more alarmist predictions based on it, are incorrect. You may disagree – obviously many people do, as the AGW theory is the dominant “conventional wisdom” (even if the exaggerated “97% consensus among climate scientists” claim has been debunked). But I hope you are open-minded enough yourself to watch the documentary I recommended which makes a case for taking a skeptical view on it.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 20, 2025, at 9:09 AM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
When the northern hemisphere cools by some amount and the southern hemisphere warms by an equivalent amount, that does not create a change in global average temperature. That is what seems to have happened during the Dryas. That’s also why estimates of global average temperature from that time period don’t spike during the Dryas: Analysis: Is it actually hotter now than any time in the last 100,000 years? | PBS News
The majority of the planet warming substantially and some regions cooling slightly, would in fact still be an increase in global average. That’s what has been objectively measured as happening today.
The documentary won’t do a better job of explaining it because it’s not true. You seem to have a misunderstanding of how averaging works
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 11:15 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
“Cooling in some regions (East Antarctica) accompanied by warming in other regions” is what we’re talking about in the current era, when you believe the global temperature average has been changing (slightly increasing).
But if you want to discuss this, please watch the film, which goes into more detail and does a better job describing it than I can do on the fly.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 11:06 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
The Dryas was cooling in some regions, accompanied by warming in other regions. So no, that wouldn’t be consistent with a change in global average.
Yes, the second link in my second email has a graph of temperature over the past 150k years. There are no comparable changes in global average to the past century.
I don’t know why you say there is no correlation. The third link I provided shows very tight correlation.
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:58 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
So your belief is that average global temperatures did not increase during the Dryas or other past periods? Or just that they have never naturally increased in Earth’s past as rapidly as they are claimed to have increased recently?
How do you explain the lack of correlation between the timelines of modern warming and the increase of CO2 and other “greenhouse gases” in the atmosphere? If we don’t understand why they don’t correlate, isn’t it possible that natural causes have been driving global warming?
Anyway, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the points discussed in the documentary after you’ve had a chance to watch the whole thing.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 10:49 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Nobody has claimed that warming is uniform or global. The claim is that global average temperature is increasing. Different regions of the world are in fact warming at different rates. However all three of the links from my second email have graphs explicitly labeled as measuring global average.
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:38 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Are you sure that recent warming has been uniformly worldwide? I’m by no means certain of that. This report for instance notes that weather stations in eastern Antarctica – a vast area the size of the United States – show temperatures getting colder, not warmer, over the past few decades:
NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4 Decades…Cooling Trend
NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4 Decades…Cooling Trend
notrickszone.com
<cropped-Norway_2020_08-180x180.png>
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trendNASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4 Decades…Cooling Trend https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
notrickszone.com https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend <cropped-Norway_2020_08-180x180.png> https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trendLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 9:46 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
I’ve never heard of the Younger Dryas but it’s wiki page is pretty clear that it was a regional change in temperature. It happened primarily in Greenland, to a lesser extent in Europe, to a lesser extent the northern hemisphere. The given explanation for it is that there was a sudden change in ocean currents. Which makes sense then why it isn’t reflected in global average. There’s the same amount of total heat in the system, the ocean currents just started moving it around differently.
This is the purpose of measuring global average temperature; it captures the total amount of heat energy being retained by the atmosphere, independent of exactly how it’s distributed. Excluding human activities, there have not been similarly rapid changes in global atmosphere composition / average temperature like you claim.
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 9:11 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Below is a message I posted to the LPSF list and others back in 2020 that addresses this argument of unprecedented recent temperature rise. This warming has not correlated well with human emissions of carbon dioxide and other “greenhouse gases”. There are more details on this in the film:
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
youtube.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQThe Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
From: Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net>
Subject: [bayareafaeries] Rapid, dramatic climate change the media are ignoring?
Date: March 8, 2020 at 9:14:43 PM PDT
To: LPSF Discussion List <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>, Bay Area Faeries <bayareafaeries@groups.queernet.org mailto:bayareafaeries@groups.queernet.org>, Bay Area Liberty <ba-liberty@yahoogroups.com mailto:ba-liberty@yahoogroups.com>, LibertarianHorizons@groups.io mailto:LibertarianHorizons@groups.io, SFBay Cannabis Community List <SFBayCannabisCommunity@yahoogroups.com mailto:SFBayCannabisCommunity@yahoogroups.com>, CALibs@yahoogroups.com mailto:CALibs@yahoogroups.com, LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com mailto:LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com, bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com mailto:bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.comEarth’s climate has been changing as long as the planet has existed, and the planet has been both colder and warmer at various times in the past than it is now. Human activity played essentially zero role in most of these changes, since they happened before the industrial era. These facts are not controversial, but they tend to be downplayed in media discussions of climate change and how it allegedly presents a serious threat to humans and the planet.
When I’ve pointed out this long history of “natural” (non-human-caused) climate change to folks who believe the mainstream narrative that human activity is causing major climatic change now and that this is a major problem, a response I’ve often gotten is that this time is different because climate change in the past has never been as rapid or dramatic as it has recently. While that point seems to be taken more on faith than on any particular knowledge of past temperature records, it has been difficult to dispute because the temperature record of Earth’s climate history is usually framed in long periods of geological time rather than looking at what temperature changes occurred in a few brief decades.
The article below, however, discusses scientific findings based on studying the isotopes in Greenland ice core samples which show that some of the global warming that took place thousands of years ago was more rapid and dramatic than recent global warming allegedly caused by humans:
“The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene. Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming 14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between ~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core suggests that Greenland was more than ~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas occurred in only about 40 to 50. years.” [emphasis added]
By way of comparison, advocates of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory (the idea that humans are responsible for global warming) are predicting less warming than this over a longer time period even if none of their recommendations to combat global warming are followed. The International Energy Agency (IEA) recently predicted we’re “on track for about 3 degrees Celsius of warming by 2100”, while the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) predicts warming of about 4° Celsius by 2100 in its “worse case” scenario of coal use growing dramatically during the 21st century – an outcome that many now view as unrealistic (see Climate Change Worst-Case Scenario Now Looks Unrealistic).
Again, that’s 4° of warming over 80 years being predicted by AGW theory proponents as the worst case scenario if humans continue to burn fossil fuels without regard to climate change, versus 10° of warming that occurred historically over a 40 or 50 year period some 11,500 years ago – if you trust the science.
Also of note is the graph accompanying the story, which shows in dramatic visual terms how insignificant recent warming is in comparison to this historical warming.
Now to be clear, the point is not that 3 or 4 degrees of global warming in the next 80 years would not be disruptive. I’m sure it would be, to both the environment and the economy. There might be good reasons to try to tamper with Earth’s climate in order to prevent such a change.
But this evidence of more rapid dramatic warming having occurred in the past suggests that even if the Earth does get 3 or 4 degrees warmer by 2100, it would not herald irreversible doom as some alarmists would have us believe. The science is telling us that the planet warmed more rapidly in the past during a shorter time frame, and then temperatures eventually more or less leveled out. Earth didn’t just continue to get warmer and warmer in a self-perpetuating, out-of-control cycle.
Another important thing to understand is that scientists aren’t sure what caused the rapid warming that ended the Younger Dryas period. This lack of understanding of “natural” causes of climate change suggests that if whatever caused the rapid warming 11,500 years ago, also caused the milder warming the Earth has experienced recently, we wouldn’t know. The assumption that recent warming must be due to human activity because “nothing like this has ever happened before”, does not accurately reflect the historical temperature record.
All this is of course just my take on the data presented below. I’m interested in hearing from AGW proponents who have a good response to this. If you know one, please invite them to comment!
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Begin forwarded message:
The Intriguing Problem Of The Younger Dryas—What Does It Mean And What Caused It?
Anthony Watts https://wattsupwiththat.com/author/wattsupwiththat/ / June 19, 2012 https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/
This is a follow up posting to Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story! http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!WUWT readers may recall this recent story: New evidence of Younger Dryas extraterrestrial impact The story below…
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/Guest post by Don J. Easterbrook
Dept. of Geology, Western Washington University.
The Younger Dryas was a period of rapid cooling in the late Pleistocene 12,800 to 11,500 calendar years ago. It followed closely on the heels of a dramatically abrupt warming that brought the last Ice Age to a close (17,500 calendar years ago), lasted for about 1,300 years, then ended as abruptly as it started. The cause of these remarkably sudden climate changes has puzzled geologists and climatologists for decades and despite much effort to find the answer, can still only be considered enigmatic.
The Younger Dryas interruption of the global warming that resulted in the abrupt, wholesale melting of the huge late Pleistocene ice sheets was first discovered in European pollen studies about 75 years ago. Terrestrial plants and pollen indicate that arboreal forests were replaced by tundra vegetation during a cool climate. This cool period was named after the pale yellow flower Dryas octopetella, an arctic wildflower typical of cold, open, Arctic environments. The Younger Dryas return to a cold, glacial climate was first considered to be a regional event restricted to Europe, but later studies have shown that it was a world-wide event. The problem became even more complicated when oxygen isotope data from ice cores in Antarctica and Greenland showed not only the Younger Dryas cooling, but several other shorter cooling/warming events, now known as Dansgaard-Oerscher events.
The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene. Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming 14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between ~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core suggests that Greenland was more than~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas occurred in only about 40 to 50 years.
<clip_image002.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0021.jpg
Figure 1. Temperature fluctuations over the past 17,000 years showing the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas. The late Pleistocene cold glacial climate that built immense ice sheets terminated suddenly about 14,500 years ago (1), causing glaciers to melt dramatically. About 12,800 years ago, after about 2000 years of fluctuating climate (2-4), temperatures plunged suddenly (5) and remained cool for 1300 years (6). About 11,500 years ago, the climate again warmed suddenly and the Younger Dryas ended (7).Radiocarbon and cosmogenic dating of glacial moraines in regions all over the world and abrupt changes in oxygen isotope ratios in ice cores indicate that the Younger Dryas cooling was globally synchronous. Evidence of Younger Dryas advance of continental ice sheets is reported from the Scandinavian ice sheet, the Laurentide ice sheet in eastern North America, the Cordilleran ice sheet in western North America, and the Siberian ice sheet in Russia. Alpine and ice cap glaciers also responded to the abrupt Younger Dryas cooling in both the Northern and Southern hemispheres, e.g., many places in the Rocky Mts. of the U.S. and Canada, the Cascade Mts. of Washington, the European Alps, the Southern Alps of New Zealand, and the Andes Mts. in Patagonia of South America.
<clip_image004.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0041.jpg
Figure 2. Temperature fluctuations over the past 15,000 years showing the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas and other warming and cooling periods, the Oldest Dryas (cool), Bölllng (warm), Older Dryas (cool), Allerød (warm), InterAllerød (cool), and Younger Dryas (cool).<clip_image006.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image006.jpg
Figure 3. Oxygen isotope record from the Greenland ice core showing an abrupt temperature drop 12,800 years ago, 1300 years of cool climate, and sudden warming 11,500 years ago.The Younger Dryas had multiple glacial advances and retreats
The Younger Dryas was not just a single climatic event. Late Pleistocene climatic warming and cooling not only occurred before and after the YD, but also within it. All three major Pleistocene ice sheets, the Scandinavian, Laurentide, and Cordilleran, experienced double moraine-building episodes, as did a large number of alpine glaciers. Multiple YD moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet have long been documented and a vast literature exists. The Scandinavian Ice Sheet readvanced during the YD and built two extensive end moraines across southern Finland, the central Swedish moraines, and the Ra moraines of southwestern Norway(Fig. 4). 14C dates indicate they were separated by about 500 years.
<clip_image008.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image008.jpg
Figure 4. Double Younger Dryas moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet.Among the first multiple YD moraines to be recognized were the Loch Lomond moraines of the Scotish Highlands. Alpine glaciers and icefields in Britain readvanced or re-formed during the YD and built extensive moraines at the glacier margins. The largest YD icefield at this time was the Scotish Highland glacier complex, but smaller alpine glaciers occurred in the Hebrides and Cairngorms of Scotland, in the English Lake District, and in Ireland. The Loch Lomond moraines consist of multiple moraines. Radiocarbon dates constrain the age of the Loch Lomond moraines between 12.9 and 11.5 calendar years ago.
Multiple Younger Dryas moraines of alpine glaciers also occur throughout the world, e.g., the European Alps, the Rocky Mts., Alaska, the Cascade Range, the Andes, the New Zealand Alps, and elsewhere.
<clip_image010.jpeg> http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image010.jpg
Figure 5. Double Younger Dryas moraines at Titcomb Lakes in the Wind River Range of Wyoming.Implications
The multiple nature of YD moraines in widely separated areas of the world and in both hemispheres indicates that the YD consisted of more than a single climatic event and these occurred virtually simultaneously worldwide. Both ice sheets and alpine glaciers were sensitive to the multiple YD phases. The GISP2 ice core shows two peaks within the YD that match the glacial record. The absence of a time lag between the N and S Hemispheres glacial fluctuations precludes an ocean cause and is not consistent with the North Atlantic Deep Ocean Water hypothesis for the cause of the Younger Dryas, nor with a cosmic impact or volcanic origin.
Both 14C and 10Be production rates in the upper atmosphere changed during the YD. 14C and 10Be are isotopes produced by collision of incoming radiation with atoms in the upper atmosphere. The change in their production rates means that the Younger Dryas was associated with changes in the amount of radiation entering the Earth’s atmosphere, leading to the intriguing possibility that the YD was caused by solar fluctuations.
Why the Younger Dryas is important
What can we learn from all this? The ice core isotope data were hugely significant because they showed that the Younger Dryas, as well as the other late Pleistocene warming and cooling events could not possibly have been caused by slow, Croll-Milankovitch orbital forcing, which occurs over many tens of thousands of years. The ice core isotope data thus essentially killed the Croll-Milankovitch theory as the cause of the Ice Ages.
In an attempt to save the Croll-Milankovitch theory, Broecker and Dention (1990) published a paper postulating that large amounts of fresh water discharged into the north Atlantic about 12,800 years ago when retreat of the Laurentide ice sheet allowed drainage of glacial Lake Agassiz to spill eastward into the Atlantic Ocean. They proposed that this large influx of fresh water might have stopped the formation of descending, higher-density water in the North Atlantic, thereby interrupting deep-water currents that distribute large amounts of heat globally and initiating a short-term return to glacial conditions. If indeed that was the case, then the Younger Dryas would have been initiated in the North Atlantic and propagated from there to the Southern Hemisphere and the rest of the world. Since that would take time, it means that the YD should be 400-1000 years younger in the Southern Hemisphere and Pacific areas than in the Northern Hemisphere. However, numerous radiocarbon and cosmogenic dates of the Younger Dryas all over the world indicate the cooling was globally synchronous. Thus, the North Atlantic deep current theory is not consistent with the chronology of the Younger Dryas.
The climatic fluctuations before and after the Younger Dryas, as well as the fluctuations within it, and the duration of these changes are not consistent with a single event cause of the YD. Neither cosmic impact or volcanic eruptions could produce the abrupt, multiple climatic changes that occurred during the late Pleistocene.
On Feb 19, 2025, at 8:21 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Global average temperature for the past 2k years can be measured relatively accurately: Temperature record of the last 2,000 years - Wikipedia
You can see in the graph in this link that the temperature increase since 1850 is so dramatic that it is double any naturally-occurring temperature change in the past 2k years.Though there are also estimates of the global average temperature that go back 150k years: Analysis: Is it actually hotter now than any time in the last 100,000 years? | PBS News
In this scale, the past 150 years are a vertical tick. No other time in the past 150k years has the temperature increased so much so quickly. So there’s no empirical evidence of natural climate change this quick, or any natural cause that can realistically point to as an explanation.We know causally that increased co2 concentration in the atmosphere will increase global temperatures because of the greenhouse effect. And when you graph co2 concentration against global temperature, you see they correlate exactly: If carbon dioxide hits a new high every year, why isn’t every year hotter than the last? | NOAA Climate.gov
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:48 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
I try to keep an open mind about it, but am definitely on the skeptical side of the fence where the Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) theory is concerned. I’m always happy to discuss, but would encourage anyone wishing to do so to watch the full documentary, and don’t be put off by the inflammatory title and opening sequence – it makes a much better case than a cursory glance at those things would suggest.
I fully agree that the climate has been changing – for as long as the Earth has been around. If the causes of past swings of cooling and warming are not fully understood, which I don’t believe they are, I don’t think natural causes can be ruled out as the main drivers of recently observed climate change.
Pollution can indeed by seen as a form of trespass and violation of the Non-Aggression Principle, at least when it reaches a certain threshold. Like most things, it’s a matter of degree. A person exhaling carbon dioxide by breathing is adding CO2 to the atmosphere as surely as a smog-belching factory, just on a much smaller scale. I’m dubious of whether there’s any clear and simple application of property rights that could solve air pollution issues, as nice as it would be to have such a tidy libertarian solution.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 5:09 PM, Brendan McMillion <brendanmcmillion@gmail.com mailto:brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Starchild
I’m happy to talk through any specific scientific arguments with respect to climate change that you’re interested in. I watched a few minutes of this documentary. So far it’s just made claims that climate change is some scheme to make money, or hinder the development of Africa. The fact is that climate change is human-caused and addressing it is urgent. I was honestly pretty shocked when you told me you didn’t believe this. Every year more and more people are dying or losing everything they have due to disasters directly linked to climate change. 2024 was the hottest year ever recorded since 1880. Before that, 2023 had been the hottest year to have ever been recorded. Significant portions of LA just burned in massive wildfires in winter.
Ironically, libertarians should be some of the strongest supporters of addressing climate change because we know tragedies of the commons can always be solved through robust property rights. You would never be allowed to dump your garbage on someone’s doorstep without consent; why is everyone allowed to dump their garbage into the air for free?
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:26 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net mailto:sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Brendan,
Here’s the British documentary film about anthropogenic global warming (aka climate change) that I mentioned to you when we were hanging out yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
youtube.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQThe Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQIt’s from 2007, but still the most compelling explanation I’ve found of what’s really going on with temperature on Earth.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
This site, which appears to accept AGW theory (it includes a passing
reference to* "the greenhouse world we are creating through fossil fuel
burning”*), nevertheless states that the Dryas period was an example of
abrupt (non-human-caused) climate change, and that its effects were
worldwide:
I think you are applying a very liberal reading to discussion which is
directly under a graph titled “Central Greenland Climate”. This discussion
referring to “Earth” broadly seems to me more like a misstatement in this
particular article. It doesn’t seem to present any temperature data from
outside of Greenland.
The link above is a good example of what I consider unsubstantiated climate
alarmism. Its author(s) assert for instance that every degree of warming
brings with it an “increased likelihood” of “loss of biodiversity”.How does this assertion square with the fact that very warm tropical
regions tend to have far greater biodiversity than very cold polar regions?
Are the author(s) taking natural extinctions into account – the
overwhelming majority of species that have ever existed are now extinct
after all, and in most cases humans had nothing to do with it – or the
possibility of extinctions being caused by other human activities such as
habitat destruction rather than by climate change? No evidence is
presented.
The article I linked is not alarmism, it is a more reader-friendly version
of the full IPCC report where they do the actual climate modeling. You can
read the full report here: AR6 Synthesis Report: Climate Change 2023
“Approximately half of the species assessed globally have shifted polewards
or, on land, also to higher elevations (very high confidence). Biological
responses including changes in geographic placement and shifting seasonal
timing are often not sufficient to cope with recent climate change (very
high confidence). Hundreds of local losses of species have been driven by
increases in the magnitude of heat extremes (high confidence) and mass
mortality events on land and in the ocean (very high confidence).”
You note the recent L.A. wildfires, along with changes in coffee and
chocolate prices, and write that “a lot” of this is due to climate change,
without stating how much you mean by “a lot”, or on what evidence you are
basing your assessment.
Sure, these sources are all written by experts and peer reviewed:
Even if we assume that statement is true, it does not necessarily follow
that the climate change is human-caused, or that if it *is *human-caused,
that the totality of its effects are more negative than positive.
We can measure that the concentration of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere
is increasing in direct proportion to human emissions. We can measure the
warming potential of these gases in the lab. We can measure an increase in
global average temperature in direct proportion to their increased
concentration in the atmosphere and warming potential. So where exactly is
the gap in your mind?
Brendan,
My further responses inline below…
Responses inline,
I understand averaging. While it’s true that equivalent amounts of
warming and cooling in different regions would cancel each other out in
terms of global average temperatures, I question whether they have enough
global temperature data from thousands of years ago to definitively say
that rapid North Atlantic warming during, say, the Dryas time period, was
fully offset by equivalent cooling elsewhere.You’re discounting the evidence that I’ve provided that the Dryas did not
have an effect on global temperature while also not providing any of your
own.This site, which appears to accept AGW theory (it includes a passing
reference to* "the greenhouse world we are creating through fossil fuel
burning”*), nevertheless states that the Dryas period was an example of
abrupt (non-human-caused) climate change, and that its effects were
worldwide:Two examples of abrupt climate change
Two examples of abrupt climate change
https://ocp.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/div/ocp/arch/examples.shtml
ldeo.columbia.edu
https://ocp.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/div/ocp/arch/examples.shtml
https://ocp.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/div/ocp/arch/examples.shtmlWhat we *do *know is that the the planet has been far warmer, and far
cooler, at various times in the pre-industrial past, than it is today, and
that there were *far *higher levels of C02 in the atmosphere than is the
case today, without this causing the planet to become hotter and hotter,
extinguishing life on Earth. I believe it’s also known that warming in some
regions (e.g. Greenland) occurred as rapidly as some places have warmed in
recent decades.Nobody credible is claiming that global warming will “extinguish life on
Earth”. Cause the extinction of many many species? Yes. The IPCC publishes
specific predictions of what effects different degrees of warming will
have:
Myth-buster: Why two degrees of global warming is worse than it sounds » Yale Climate ConnectionsThe link above is a good example of what I consider unsubstantiated
climate alarmism. Its author(s) assert for instance that every degree of
warming brings with it an “increased likelihood” of “loss of biodiversity”.How does this assertion square with the fact that very warm tropical
regions tend to have far greater biodiversity than very cold polar regions?
Are the author(s) taking natural extinctions into account – the
overwhelming majority of species that have ever existed are now extinct
after all, and in most cases humans had nothing to do with it – or the
possibility of extinctions being caused by other human activities such as
habitat destruction rather than by climate change? No evidence is
presented.Climate change is an externality: the people that pay for fixing it are
not the people that benefited from causing it. The recent LA wildfires were
caused by changing weather patterns directly attributable to climate
change. Tens of thousands of people lost their homes and will now have to
relocate or rebuild at great personal cost to themselves (even accounting
for insurance). Coffee costs twice what it did a year ago because of
massive crop failures. Chocolate costs three times what it did a year ago,
also because of massive crop failures.Are each of these 100% attributable to climate change? No. But a lot of it
is. And the people that benefited massively financially from being allowed
to pollute the atmosphere for free share these costs equally with people
that didn’t. That’s why it’s a moral imperative to end. Otherwise we will
have a tragedy of the commons where a few people benefit from making the
lives of everyone else harder.You note the recent L.A. wildfires, along with changes in coffee and
chocolate prices, and write that “a lot” of this is due to climate change,
without stating how much you mean by “a lot”, or on what evidence you are
basing your assessment.Even if we assume that statement is true, it does not necessarily follow
that the climate change is human-caused, or that if it *is *human-caused,
that the totality of its effects are more negative than positive.Furthermore, even *if *human activity were mostly responsible for global
warming, and even *if *the human impact on warming is more harmful than
beneficial (neither of which assumptions I consider proven), there would
still be costs involved in trying to counteract it, and it is not
necessarily the case that the harms associated with those costs would be
less than the harms associated with the warming itself.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
This among other evidence suggests to me that the Anthropogenic Global
Warming theory, and especially the more alarmist predictions based on it,
are incorrect. You may disagree – obviously many people do, as the AGW
theory *is *the dominant “conventional wisdom” (even if the exaggerated
“97% consensus among climate scientists” claim has been debunked). But I
hope you are open-minded enough yourself to watch the documentary I
recommended which makes a case for taking a skeptical view on it.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
When the northern hemisphere cools by some amount and the southern
hemisphere warms by an equivalent amount, that does not create a change in
global average temperature. That is what seems to have happened during the
Dryas. That’s also why estimates of global average temperature from that
time period don’t spike during the Dryas:
Analysis: Is it actually hotter now than any time in the last 100,000 years? | PBS NewsThe majority of the planet warming substantially and some regions cooling
slightly, would in fact still be an increase in global average. That’s what
has been objectively measured as happening today.The documentary won’t do a better job of explaining it because it’s not
true. You seem to have a misunderstanding of how averaging works"Cooling in some regions (East Antarctica) accompanied by warming in
other regions" is what we’re talking about in the current era, when you
believe the global temperature average *has *been changing (slightly
increasing).But if you want to discuss this, please watch the film, which goes into
more detail and does a better job describing it than I can do on the fly.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
The Dryas was cooling in some regions, accompanied by warming in other
regions. So no, that wouldn’t be consistent with a change in global average.Yes, the second link in my second email has a graph of temperature over
the past 150k years. There are no comparable changes in global average to
the past century.I don’t know why you say there is no correlation. The third link I
provided shows very tight correlation.So your belief is that average global temperatures did not increase
during the Dryas or other past periods? Or just that they have never
naturally increased in Earth’s past as rapidly as they are claimed to have
increased recently?How do you explain the lack of correlation between the timelines of
modern warming and the increase of CO2 and other “greenhouse gases” in the
atmosphere? If we don’t understand why they don’t correlate, isn’t it
possible that natural causes have been driving global warming?Anyway, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the points discussed
in the documentary after you’ve had a chance to watch the whole thing.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Nobody has claimed that warming is uniform or global. The claim is that
global average temperature is increasing. Different regions of the world
are in fact warming at different rates. However all three of the links from
my second email have graphs explicitly labeled as measuring global average.Are you sure that recent warming has been uniformly worldwide? I’m by
no means certain of that. This report for instance notes that weather
stations in eastern Antarctica – a vast area the size of the United States
– show temperatures getting colder, not warmer, over the past few decades:NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4 Decades…Cooling Trend
NASA Surface Station Data Show East Antarctica NOT WARMING Past 4
Decades…Cooling Trend
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
notrickszone.com
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
<cropped-Norway_2020_08-180x180.png>
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend
https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/07/nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trend/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nasa-surface-station-data-show-east-antarctica-not-warming-past-4-decades-cooling-trendLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
I’ve never heard of the Younger Dryas but it’s wiki page is pretty
clear that it was a regional change in temperature. It happened primarily
in Greenland, to a lesser extent in Europe, to a lesser extent the northern
hemisphere. The given explanation for it is that there was a sudden change
in ocean currents. Which makes sense then why it isn’t reflected in global
average. There’s the same amount of total heat in the system, the ocean
currents just started moving it around differently.This is the purpose of measuring global average temperature; it
captures the total amount of heat energy being retained by the atmosphere,
independent of exactly how it’s distributed. Excluding human activities,
there have not been similarly rapid changes in global atmosphere
composition / average temperature like you claim.Below is a message I posted to the LPSF list and others back in 2020
that addresses this argument of unprecedented recent temperature rise. This
warming has not correlated well with human emissions of carbon dioxide and
other “greenhouse gases”. There are more details on this in the film:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQLove & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
*From: *Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net
*Subject: *[bayareafaeries] Rapid, dramatic climate change the
media are ignoring?
*Date: *March 8, 2020 at 9:14:43 PM PDT
*To: *LPSF Discussion List lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Bay Area
Faeries bayareafaeries@groups.queernet.org, Bay Area Liberty <
ba-liberty@yahoogroups.com>, LibertarianHorizons@groups.io, SFBay
Cannabis Community List SFBayCannabisCommunity@yahoogroups.com,
CALibs@yahoogroups.com, LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com,
bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.comEarth’s climate has been changing as long as the planet has existed,
and the planet has been both colder and warmer at various times in the past
than it is now. Human activity played essentially zero role in most of
these changes, since they happened before the industrial era. These facts
are not controversial, but they tend to be downplayed in media discussions
of climate change and how it allegedly presents a serious threat to humans
and the planet.When I’ve pointed out this long history of “natural”
(non-human-caused) climate change to folks who believe the mainstream
narrative that human activity is causing major climatic change now and that
this is a major problem, a response I’ve often gotten is that this
time is different because climate change in the past has never been as
rapid or dramatic as it has recently. While that point seems to be
taken more on faith than on any particular knowledge of past temperature
records, it has been difficult to dispute because the temperature record of
Earth’s climate history is usually framed in long periods of geological
time rather than looking at what temperature changes occurred in a few
brief decades.The article below, however, discusses scientific findings based on
studying the isotopes in Greenland ice core samples which show that some of
the global warming that took place thousands of years ago was more
rapid and dramatic* than recent global warming allegedly caused by
humans*:“The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt
climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene.
Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming
14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into
rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between
~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the
beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt
climatic warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the
most precise record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice
core stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the
Greenland Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially
important because the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has
been determined by the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a
very accurate chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by
measurement of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2
Greenland ice core suggests that Greenland was more than ~10°C colder
during the Younger Dryas and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended
the Younger Dryas occurred in only about 40 to 50. years.” [emphasis
added]By way of comparison, advocates of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW)
theory (the idea that humans are responsible for global warming) are
predicting less warming than this over a longer time period even
if none of their recommendations to combat global warming are followed. The
International Energy Agency (IEA) recently predicted we’re “on track for
about 3 degrees Celsius of warming by 2100”, while the Intergovernmental
Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) predicts warming of about 4*° *Celsius
by 2100 in its “worse case” scenario of coal use growing
dramatically during the 21st century – an outcome that many now
view as unrealistic (see
Climate Change Worst-Case Scenario Now Looks Unrealistic
).Again, that’s 4° of warming over 80 years being predicted by AGW
theory proponents as the worst case scenario if humans continue to burn
fossil fuels without regard to climate change, versus 10**° of
warming that occurred historically over a 40 or 50 year period some 11,500
years ago – if you trust the science.Also of note is the graph accompanying the story, which shows in
dramatic visual terms how insignificant recent warming is in comparison to
this historical warming.Now to be clear, the point is not that 3 or 4 degrees of global
warming in the next 80 years would not be disruptive. I’m sure it would be,
to both the environment and the economy. There might be good
reasons to try to tamper with Earth’s climate in order to prevent such a
change.But this evidence of more rapid dramatic warming having occurred in
the past suggests that even if the Earth does get 3 or 4 degrees warmer by
2100, it would not herald irreversible doom as some alarmists would have us
believe. The science is telling us that the planet warmed more
rapidly in the past during a shorter time frame, and then
temperatures eventually more or less leveled out. Earth didn’t just
continue to get warmer and warmer in a self-perpetuating, out-of-control
cycle.Another important thing to understand is that scientists aren’t
sure what caused the rapid warming that ended the Younger Dryas period.
This lack of understanding of “natural” causes of climate change suggests
that if whatever caused the rapid warming 11,500 years ago, also caused the
milder warming the Earth has experienced recently, we wouldn’t know.
The assumption that recent warming must be due to human activity
because “nothing like this has ever happened before”, does not accurately
reflect the historical temperature record.All this is of course just my take on the data presented below. I’m
interested in hearing from AGW proponents who have a good response to this.
If you know one, please invite them to comment!Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
The Intriguing Problem Of The Younger Dryas—What Does It Mean And
What Caused It?
Anthony Watts https://wattsupwiththat.com/author/wattsupwiththat/
/ June 19, 2012
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/This is a follow up posting to Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Younger Dryas -The Rest of the Story!WUWT readers may recall this recent story: New evidence of Younger
Dryas extraterrestrial impact The story below…http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/younger-dryas-the-rest-of-the-story/
Guest post by Don J. Easterbrook
Dept. of Geology, Western Washington University.
The Younger Dryas was a period of rapid cooling in the late
Pleistocene 12,800 to 11,500 calendar years ago. It followed closely on the
heels of a dramatically abrupt warming that brought the last Ice Age to a
close (17,500 calendar years ago), lasted for about 1,300 years, then ended
as abruptly as it started. The cause of these remarkably sudden climate
changes has puzzled geologists and climatologists for decades and despite
much effort to find the answer, can still only be considered enigmatic.The Younger Dryas interruption of the global warming that resulted in
the abrupt, wholesale melting of the huge late Pleistocene ice sheets was
first discovered in European pollen studies about 75 years ago. Terrestrial
plants and pollen indicate that arboreal forests were replaced by tundra
vegetation during a cool climate. This cool period was named after the pale
yellow flower Dryas octopetella, an arctic wildflower typical of cold,
open, Arctic environments. The Younger Dryas return to a cold, glacial
climate was first considered to be a regional event restricted to Europe,
but later studies have shown that it was a world-wide event. The problem
became even more complicated when oxygen isotope data from ice cores in
Antarctica and Greenland showed not only the Younger Dryas cooling, but
several other shorter cooling/warming events, now known as
Dansgaard-Oerscher events.The Younger Dryas is the longest and coldest of several very abrupt
climatic changes that took place near the end of the late Pleistocene.
Among these abrupt changes in climate were: (1) sudden global warming
14,500 years ago (Fig. 1) that sent the immense Pleistocene ice sheets into
rapid retreat, (2) several episodes of climatic warming and cooling between
~14,400 and 12,800 years ago, (3) sudden cooling 12,800 years ago at the
beginning of the Younger Dryas, and (4) ~11,500 years ago, abrupt climatic
warming of up to 10º C in just a few decades. Perhaps the most precise
record of late Pleistocene climate changes is found in the ice core
stratigraphy of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project (GISP) and the Greenland
Ice Core Project (GRIP). The GRIP ice core is especially important because
the ages of the ice at various levels in the core has been determined by
the counting down of annual layers in the ice, giving a very accurate
chronology, and climatic fluctuations have been determined by measurement
of oxygen isotope ratios. Isotope data from the GISP2 Greenland ice core
suggests that Greenland was more than~10°C colder during the Younger Dryas
and that the sudden warming of 10° ±4°C that ended the Younger Dryas
occurred in only about 40 to 50 years.<clip_image002.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0021.jpgFigure 1. Temperature fluctuations over the past 17,000 years
showing the abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas. The late Pleistocene
cold glacial climate that built immense ice sheets terminated suddenly
about 14,500 years ago (1), causing glaciers to melt dramatically. About
12,800 years ago, after about 2000 years of fluctuating climate (2-4),
temperatures plunged suddenly (5) and remained cool for 1300 years (6).
About 11,500 years ago, the climate again warmed suddenly and the Younger
Dryas ended (7).Radiocarbon and cosmogenic dating of glacial moraines in regions all
over the world and abrupt changes in oxygen isotope ratios in ice cores
indicate that the Younger Dryas cooling was globally synchronous. Evidence
of Younger Dryas advance of continental ice sheets is reported from the
Scandinavian ice sheet, the Laurentide ice sheet in eastern North America,
the Cordilleran ice sheet in western North America, and the Siberian ice
sheet in Russia. Alpine and ice cap glaciers also responded to the abrupt
Younger Dryas cooling in both the Northern and Southern hemispheres, e.g.,
many places in the Rocky Mts. of the U.S. and Canada, the Cascade Mts. of
Washington, the European Alps, the Southern Alps of New Zealand, and the
Andes Mts. in Patagonia of South America.<clip_image004.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0041.jpg
Figure 2. Temperature fluctuations over the past 15,000 years showing the
abrupt cooling during the Younger Dryas and other warming and cooling
periods, the Oldest Dryas (cool), Bölllng (warm), Older Dryas (cool),
Allerød (warm), InterAllerød (cool), and Younger Dryas (cool).
<clip_image006.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image006.jpg
Figure 3. Oxygen isotope record from the Greenland ice core showing an
abrupt temperature drop 12,800 years ago, 1300 years of cool climate, and
sudden warming 11,500 years ago.
The Younger Dryas had multiple glacial advances and retreats
The Younger Dryas was not just a single climatic event. Late Pleistocene
climatic warming and cooling not only occurred before and after the YD, but
also within it. All three major Pleistocene ice sheets, the Scandinavian,
Laurentide, and Cordilleran, experienced double moraine-building episodes,
as did a large number of alpine glaciers. Multiple YD moraines of the
Scandinavian Ice Sheet have long been documented and a vast literature
exists. The Scandinavian Ice Sheet readvanced during the YD and built two
extensive end moraines across southern Finland, the central Swedish
moraines, and the Ra moraines of southwestern Norway(Fig. 4). 14C dates
indicate they were separated by about 500 years.
<clip_image008.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image008.jpg
Figure 4. Double Younger Dryas moraines of the Scandinavian Ice Sheet.
Among the first multiple YD moraines to be recognized were the Loch Lomond
moraines of the Scotish Highlands. Alpine glaciers and icefields in Britain
readvanced or re-formed during the YD and built extensive moraines at the
glacier margins. The largest YD icefield at this time was the Scotish
Highland glacier complex, but smaller alpine glaciers occurred in the
Hebrides and Cairngorms of Scotland, in the English Lake District, and in
Ireland. The Loch Lomond moraines consist of multiple moraines. Radiocarbon
dates constrain the age of the Loch Lomond moraines between 12.9 and 11.5
calendar years ago.
Multiple Younger Dryas moraines of alpine glaciers also occur throughout
the world, e.g., the European Alps, the Rocky Mts., Alaska, the Cascade
Range, the Andes, the New Zealand Alps, and elsewhere.
<clip_image010.jpeg>
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image010.jpg
Figure 5. Double Younger Dryas moraines at Titcomb Lakes in the Wind River
Range of Wyoming.
Implications
The multiple nature of YD moraines in widely separated areas of the world
and in both hemispheres indicates that the YD consisted of more than a
single climatic event and these occurred virtually simultaneously
worldwide. Both ice sheets and alpine glaciers were sensitive to the
multiple YD phases. The GISP2 ice core shows two peaks within the YD that
match the glacial record. The absence of a time lag between the N and S
Hemispheres glacial fluctuations precludes an ocean cause and is not
consistent with the North Atlantic Deep Ocean Water hypothesis for the
cause of the Younger Dryas, nor with a cosmic impact or volcanic origin.
Both 14C and 10Be production rates in the upper atmosphere changed during
the YD. 14C and 10Be are isotopes produced by collision of incoming
radiation with atoms in the upper atmosphere. The change in their
production rates means that the Younger Dryas was associated with changes
in the amount of radiation entering the Earth’s atmosphere, leading to the
intriguing possibility that the YD was caused by solar fluctuations.
On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 2:48 AM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:
On Feb 21, 2025, at 11:07 AM, Brendan McMillion < > brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 5:16 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:On Feb 20, 2025, at 9:09 AM, Brendan McMillion < >> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 11:15 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >> wrote:On Feb 19, 2025, at 11:06 PM, Brendan McMillion < >>> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:58 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >>> wrote:On Feb 19, 2025, at 10:49 PM, Brendan McMillion < >>>> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:38 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >>>> wrote:On Feb 19, 2025, at 9:46 PM, Brendan McMillion < >>>>> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 9:11 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >>>>> wrote:Begin forwarded message:
Begin forwarded message:
Why the Younger Dryas is important
What can we learn from all this? The ice core isotope data were
hugely significant because they showed that the Younger Dryas, as well as
the other late Pleistocene warming and cooling events could not possibly
have been caused by slow, Croll-Milankovitch orbital forcing, which occurs
over many tens of thousands of years. The ice core isotope data thus
essentially killed the Croll-Milankovitch theory as the cause of the Ice
Ages.In an attempt to save the Croll-Milankovitch theory, Broecker and
Dention (1990) published a paper postulating that large amounts of fresh
water discharged into the north Atlantic about 12,800 years ago when
retreat of the Laurentide ice sheet allowed drainage of glacial Lake
Agassiz to spill eastward into the Atlantic Ocean. They proposed that this
large influx of fresh water might have stopped the formation of descending,
higher-density water in the North Atlantic, thereby interrupting deep-water
currents that distribute large amounts of heat globally and initiating a
short-term return to glacial conditions. If indeed that was the case, then
the Younger Dryas would have been initiated in the North Atlantic and
propagated from there to the Southern Hemisphere and the rest of the world.
Since that would take time, it means that the YD should be 400-1000 years
younger in the Southern Hemisphere and Pacific areas than in the Northern
Hemisphere. However, numerous radiocarbon and cosmogenic dates of the
Younger Dryas all over the world indicate the cooling was globally
synchronous. Thus, the North Atlantic deep current theory is not consistent
with the chronology of the Younger Dryas.
The climatic fluctuations before and after the Younger Dryas, as well
as the fluctuations within it, and the duration of these changes are not
consistent with a single event cause of the YD. Neither cosmic impact or
volcanic eruptions could produce the abrupt, multiple climatic changes that
occurred during the late Pleistocene.On Feb 19, 2025, at 8:21 PM, Brendan McMillion < >>>>>> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Global average temperature for the past 2k years can be measured
relatively accurately:
Temperature record of the last 2,000 years - Wikipedia
You can see in the graph in this link that the temperature increase
since 1850 is so dramatic that it is double any naturally-occurring
temperature change in the past 2k years.Though there are also estimates of the global average temperature
that go back 150k years:
Analysis: Is it actually hotter now than any time in the last 100,000 years? | PBS News
In this scale, the past 150 years are a vertical tick. No other time
in the past 150k years has the temperature increased so much so quickly. So
there’s no empirical evidence of natural climate change this quick, or any
natural cause that can realistically point to as an explanation.We know causally that increased co2 concentration in the atmosphere
will increase global temperatures because of the greenhouse effect. And
when you graph co2 concentration against global temperature, you see they
correlate exactly:
If carbon dioxide hits a new high every year, why isn’t every year hotter than the last? | NOAA Climate.govOn Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:48 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >>>>>> wrote:
I try to keep an open mind about it, but am definitely on the
skeptical side of the fence where the Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW)
theory is concerned. I’m always happy to discuss, but would encourage
anyone wishing to do so to watch the full documentary, and don’t be put off
by the inflammatory title and opening sequence – it makes a much better
case than a cursory glance at those things would suggest.I fully agree that the climate has been changing – for as long as
the Earth has been around. If the causes of past swings of cooling and
warming are not fully understood, which I don’t believe they are, I don’t
think natural causes can be ruled out as the main drivers of recently
observed climate change.Pollution can indeed by seen as a form of trespass and violation of
the Non-Aggression Principle, at least when it reaches a certain threshold.
Like most things, it’s a matter of degree. A person exhaling carbon dioxide
by breathing is adding CO2 to the atmosphere as surely as a smog-belching
factory, just on a much smaller scale. I’m dubious of whether there’s any
clear and simple application of property rights that could solve air
pollution issues, as nice as it would be to have such a tidy libertarian
solution.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
On Feb 19, 2025, at 5:09 PM, Brendan McMillion < >>>>>>> brendanmcmillion@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Starchild
I’m happy to talk through any specific scientific arguments with
respect to climate change that you’re interested in. I watched a few
minutes of this documentary. So far it’s just made claims that climate
change is some scheme to make money, or hinder the development of Africa.
The fact is that climate change is human-caused and addressing it is
urgent. I was honestly pretty shocked when you told me you didn’t believe
this. Every year more and more people are dying or losing everything they
have due to disasters directly linked to climate change. 2024 was the
hottest year ever recorded since 1880. Before that, 2023 had been the
hottest year to have ever been recorded. Significant portions of LA just
burned in massive wildfires in winter.Ironically, libertarians should be some of the strongest supporters
of addressing climate change because we know tragedies of the commons can
always be solved through robust property rights. You would never be allowed
to dump your garbage on someone’s doorstep without consent; why is everyone
allowed to dump their garbage into the air for free?On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:26 PM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net >>>>>>> wrote:
Brendan,
Here’s the British documentary film about anthropogenic global
warming (aka climate change) that I mentioned to you when we were hanging
out yesterday:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
<maxresdefault.jpeg>
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Full Documentary HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQIt’s from 2007, but still the most compelling explanation I’ve
found of what’s really going on with temperature on Earth.Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
I’m on Brendan’s side on this one.
We cannot handily stop the ongoing #USgovt/corporatist wars ( & their untold environmental destruction ) for fossil fuels, but — as a fellow pedaler @Starchild must surely appreciate — each of us can easily affordably & voluntarily take personal responsibility — & demonstrate & lead by example — for limiting our reliance on fossil fuels — & Lithium battery mining & processing — by biking & reducing demands for costly govt controlled & taxpayer funded-automobilist infrastructures ( FREE from all the fees for fuel, silly parking fines/restrictions, repair & maintenance, & corrupt crony insurance schemes! ).
Aside from a superb opportunity to recruit more small & large “L” libertarians to these current pointless circlejerks, it certainly beats sitting on one’s hands & simply whining about things online while virtually doing NADA/NIL of any value.
Our #BareAsYouDare @SFWNBR is the most fun & traditional way to publicly demonstrate, & take our message to the steps of the SF City Hall bureaucrats bunker of @DanielLurie & @RafaelMandelman each time, for increasing such people-/grassroots- — anarchist/non-governMENTAL — focus for our lives & communities & the planet — already popular in great cities across the nation & around the world!
