29) The other side of The Force

The Free Liberal
by Carl Milsted, Jr.

"I have joined the Republican Party, but it's not from a sudden love for
the politics of Karl Rove and David Horowitz. I joined because these
nefarious characters are in a weakened position. Their president is
setting near record levels of disapproval, and they lost both houses of
Congress. Their days of leadership in the Republican Party are numbered.
In other words, the stock price of the Republican Party has plummeted.
It is ripe for a hostile takeover. And the private equity firm leading
the charge is the Ron Paul Revolution." (09/05/07)

http://www.freeliberal.com/archives/002960.html

What I don't understand is why we'd want to join up with the losing, dying party rather than replace it. . .

I mean, joining up with the Republicans these days is like reacting to the Japanese invasion of the US auto market by taking over American Motors!

Cheers,

Brian

"Acree, Michael" <acreem@...> wrote:
  The Free Liberal
by Carl Milsted, Jr.

"I have joined the Republican Party, but it's not from a sudden love for the politics of Karl Rove and David Horowitz. I joined because these nefarious characters are in a weakened position. Their president is setting near record levels of disapproval, and they lost both houses of Congress. Their days of leadership in the Republican Party are numbered. In other words, the stock price of the Republican Party has plummeted. It is ripe for a hostile takeover. And the private equity firm leading the charge is the Ron Paul Revolution." (09/05/07)

http://www.freeliberal.com/archives/002960.html

Not a bad analogy!

Indeed. Sort of like women wanting to become priests of religions based on the Old Testament despite that book's clear advocacy for the violent suppression of women.

This is very clever Brian...but it seems a point is missing.

Let's face it...the Libertarians and Greens will be non-factors in this
election. And it doesn't appear we will have any other strong
Independents in the race either. So it comes down to this. We can align
ourselves with the "big momentum" Democrats by staying out of the BIG
RACE. The Democrats are saying they are for Personal Freedom in the
areas of Abortion (not really) but are completely unwilling to commit
(other than lip service) to any other form of Personal Freedom relating
to gay marriage, prostitution, drug use or anything else while hanging
on to the War and Military Industrial Complex, higher taxes, less
freedom in Health Care and much MUCH more....

Or we can support the Ron Paul faction of the Republicans. The
Socialists made this call a long time ago, got into the Democrats and
achieved every one of their original socialist platform items from
within the Democratic party...Social Security, Medicare and much much
more.

I say it makes sense for the issue of freedom to support the libertarian
leaning Ron Paul campaign (I didn't say Libertarian) in the interest of
advancing, broadcasting, educating and gradually working these values
into the Republicans. Most Democrats didn't support Social Security,
Medicare and other big government programs when originally
introduced...but gradually did. There's no reason REAL Libertarians
can't do the same thing in time with the Republicans given the
opportunity. And the Paul campaign is a real big opportunity.

While many in this discussion may have personal reasons for dissing Ron
Paul because he's not focusing on their more personal, real, valid,
important but politically narrow interests....they do the overall issues
of personal and economic freedom a disservice by considering the Ron
Paul campaign to be the equivalent of General Motors. Let's call Ron
Paul the Saturn division of General Motors...the better approach to the
problems facing GM. Part of GM (and others) but not the same...and a
step in the right direction and doing better than GM overall. (current
intervention from unions aside) And in fact...the whole of GM would be
better off if run more like the Saturn division which more closely
resembles Toyota than GM.

The same is true with the Ron Paul Republicans. For this reason...I will
be actively involved in the Ron Paul campaign for as long as it exists.
And I believe it is in the interests of ALL libertarians to do the same.
Those with personal issues they consider more important than the overall
big freedom picture are free to make that decision. But they will be
wrong like the Socialists who didn't understand the politics of the
Democratic Party and who refused to participate in the discussion with
the Democrats. Those same Socialists are now without any base of power
while the Democrats...and now the Republicans too...have the power of
the socialist ideas and are profiting politically and financially from
them. Just ask my sister who is a leader in the Socialist Workers Party
how much political power they have today....zip...zero....nada...even
though they were the originators of nearly all the original ideas now
part of BIG party politics.

Stick exclusively to the hard line Libertarian perspective in this
discussion if you want...but it's not an intelligent political choice in
this situation just as it wouldn't have been a good political decision
for the socialists many many years ago. Those that moved beyond
parochial politics for the greater good carried the day then and they
will today in this political environment too.

Best regards,

Mike

Well, first, Brian said American Motors (which went out of business)
not General Motors (which barely survived).

And, second, I used to work for Saturn. It was a lot like the Ron
Paul campaign -- it showed a lot of promise. But in the end, GM (the
RNC) was way more powerful and ended up bending Saturn to fit the GM
mold. Nowadays, all the things that made Saturn a promising upstart
in the early 90s are completely gone, and Saturn is now just another
typical GM line.

As apt as Brian's analogy was with American Motors, yours is even more
apt regarding Ron Paul and Saturn. Ron Paul cannot fix the Republican
Party any more than Saturn could fix GM.

Rob

Sorry for the mis-statement Rob...but I do believe a campaign can change
a Party and its direction. It may seem completely futile given the
current state of the Republicans but the applause in the audience at
these debates for Ron Paul gives me hope that there may be others out
there who want to see it change. And while I agree the Republicans may
not be the best home for those with personal political priorities
running out of the mainstream...the Ron Paul campaign is a step in the
right direction. The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single
step.

Mike

Mike:

I don't criticize Ron Paul's candidacy because of my "parochial" biases on a few issues. I criticize it because I believe it does fundamental damage to our civil liberties.

Now, it may be true that Ron Paul's platform is less deleterious to our civil liberties than a Hillary or Giuliani platform, but that doesn't make it "acceptable." A Ron Paul candidacy not only hurts my rights, but also the rights of other people, and that's not something that I, in good conscience can support.

The path to perdition is lined with "compromises" where the rights of others -- women, religious believers, gays, immigrants, entrepreneurs, etc. -- are "sacrificed" for some "greater gain."

While Ron Paul arguably "sacrifices" the rights of fewer people than Giuliani or Hillary, he still undeniably embraces an agenda that would make our society less free -- and embraces policies that, if made mainstream, would increase the role, size, and power of government in our everyday lives. That's the basis of my concern about him.

In short, he won't shrink government -- he'll grow the federal government in key areas and "shift" other big government programs from the feds to the states. Neither one of those is good enough -- as the civil rights movement of the 1960s illustrates, state governments are perfectly capable of violating the rights of men and women as well.

Cheers,

Brian

Mike Denny <mike@...> wrote:
  Sorry for the mis-statement Rob�but I do believe a campaign can change a Party and its direction. It may seem completely futile given the current state of the Republicans but the applause in the audience at these debates for Ron Paul gives me hope that there may be others out there who want to see it change. And while I agree the Republicans may not be the best home for those with personal political priorities running out of the mainstream�the Ron Paul campaign is a step in the right direction. The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.
   
  Mike

Incidentally, Mike Rogers' partisan outing crusade -- which will likely next target Lindsey Graham and Mitch McConnell -- makes hooking up with the GOP make even less sense. They're a loser party in every sense of the word.

While the Libertarians and Greens are irrelevant in the national presidential race this cycle (due in no small part to the diversion of resources from a real libertarian campaign to the Ron Paul flameout), the Republicans will be as well. No matter who the GOP runs, they have NO chance of winning, and their chances are getting even worse. The Republican campaign in 2008 will be as relevant as the Dole campaign of 1996 -- a total laughing stock no-hope ego-burst.

If Libertarians want to influence a major party and walk away from our own principles for "pragmatic" reasons, we should be working within the ascendant party. However, the same Libertarian Party officials who are spending thousands on "conservative Republican" outreach have spent $0.00 on liberal Democrat outreach, when it's going to be the Democrats setting the national agenda for the next 8 to 12 years.

Now, lots of Libertarians at this point start talking about "fighting the Democrats," and I agree with that strategy. However, we're suffering from a double standard here. If we're willing to take on the Democrats when they're in the ascendancy -- and reject the notion of influencing their policies -- why should we attempt to influence the policies of the dying and irrelevant GOP? Let's either act like a real party, or stop pretending to be one. This "in-between" act is getting pretty old, IMO.

Cheers,

Brian

Rob took the words out of my mouth -- I'd only add that for years, American Motors was in ascendancy and people insisted that these "new little companies" from Japan and Korea couldn't win without a partnership with one of the Big Four.

Just like people say the Libertarian Party is irrelevant and thus shouldn't be invested in, Wall Street declared Toyota, Honda and Nissan as jokes to be written off.

Just as people today say "this race will be won either by a Democrat or a Republican" and that people would pass the LP and Greens by, people in the 1960s and 1970s said "consumers are going to choose either a Plymouth or an Oldsmobile or Gremlin, since the Toyota and Honda aren't real cars."

Have you tried buying a new Oldsmobile, Gremlin or Plymouth lately?

Change happens when people reject obsolete paradigms. The "influence the Republicans" paradigm has been front and center in the "libertarian movement" since the late 1970s. It has dismally failed. It should be abandoned for new thinking, where we talk about how to achieve our goals rather than write off a new strategy based upon short-term prospects (that are largely a result of the LP not thinking in the long term).

There's no magic bullet -- just hard work and common sense. Common sense says the GOP, which has moved steadily away from libertarianism for the past 25 years, will continue to do so. Just look at its candidates and leadership.

Common sense says that a libertarian future isn't going to be built by a 72 year old man who isn't that libertarian to begin with and will likely retire in another couple of years.

Common sense says that a libertarian movement made up mostly of suburban white straight guys needs to reach out to a constituency that's increasingly diverse by developing leaders from the African American, Hispanic, and other communities. Not to mention women, who I hear are a pretty big chunk of the voting population.

Is it hard work? You betcha. But we've got to make the decision to do it. If we're not going to do it, we might as well just give up the ghost and go home -- Republican half-measures like the Ron Paul campaign are just big wastes of time, money and energy.

Cheers,

Brian

Rob <robpower@...> wrote: Well, first, Brian said American Motors (which went out of business)
not General Motors (which barely survived).

And, second, I used to work for Saturn. It was a lot like the Ron
Paul campaign -- it showed a lot of promise. But in the end, GM (the
RNC) was way more powerful and ended up bending Saturn to fit the GM
mold. Nowadays, all the things that made Saturn a promising upstart
in the early 90s are completely gone, and Saturn is now just another
typical GM line.

As apt as Brian's analogy was with American Motors, yours is even more
apt regarding Ron Paul and Saturn. Ron Paul cannot fix the Republican
Party any more than Saturn could fix GM.

Rob

Oh well....just call me a sucker for a fast talking politician like Ron
Paul...:>)

If he gets elected and I'm disappointed...it won't be the first time. As
there doesn't seem to be anything else exciting going on in the world of
political activities until Christine Smith arrives in November, I'll
just fill my idle hours with the Ron Paul campaign in the
meantime...silly as it may be in the eyes of some.

Mike

I agree with Brian and Rob on this. Seeking to advance liberty via the Republican Party is not a sound strategy to replace building a strong independent libertarian movement. Nor should we ever put all our hopes in a single leader, whether he's 72 years old or only half that age. Too much fervor for leaders is dangerous to a grassroots movement.

  However Ron Paul is not the Republican Party. Supporting him does not strengthen the GOP so much as it highlights the party's schisms. And the fact is that he is exposing many more people to a generally pro-freedom message than would be hearing about it otherwise. Also, by supporting Ron Paul now, I will have more credibility in speaking against making him the LP nominee, should he fail to win the Republican nomination and people seek to draft him as the LP's presidential candidate, which seems more likely to happen than not.

  Besides, working to help Ron Paul is fun and morale-boosting. There are people volunteering for him who are eager to get out and do street activism. This is a refreshing change. But if anyone from the LP wants to get together and do Libertarian stuff, I'm still available for that. In one of the previous rounds of Paul-criticism, I expressed interest in someone to help me go around to businesses and try to get them to put up our posters. I've also sought people willing to help me form and promote a group designed to generate support at public hearings, at criminal hearings, and so on, for businesses, residents, and the homeless seeking to exercise their property rights (tentatively called Neighbors for Property Rights). Brian? Anyone?

Love & Liberty,
        <<< starchild >>>