Dear Everyone;
An interesting article from Lew Rockwell about Idealism. The author lists two definitions of idealism - which definition applies to you and your Libertarianism?
1) Existing as a mental image or in fancy or imagination only; lacking practicality.
2) A standard of perfection, beauty or excellence; often taken as a model for imitation; or an ultimate object or aim of endeavor.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/singleton-a1.html
Ron Getty
SF Libertarian
Neither.
Allen Rice
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...>
wrote:
Dear Everyone;
An interesting article from Lew Rockwell about Idealism. The
author lists two definitions of idealism - which definition applies
to you and your Libertarianism?
1) Existing as a mental image or in fancy or imagination only;
lacking practicality.
2) A standard of perfection, beauty or excellence; often taken
as a model for imitation; or an ultimate object or aim of endeavor.
Dear Allen;
Are we to presume you got no Idealism or do you have a different definition of Idealism at least as it applies to the article as was url'd to the original e-mail?
Ron Getty
SF Libertarian
Allen Rice <amrcheck@...> wrote:
Neither.
Allen Rice
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...>
wrote:
Dear Everyone;
An interesting article from Lew Rockwell about Idealism. The
author lists two definitions of idealism - which definition applies
to you and your Libertarianism?
1) Existing as a mental image or in fancy or imagination only;
lacking practicality.
2) A standard of perfection, beauty or excellence; often taken
as a model for imitation; or an ultimate object or aim of endeavor.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/singleton-a1.html
Ron Getty
SF Libertarian
SPONSORED LINKS
U s government grant Libertarian party U s government student loan California politics
Ron,
I am a pragmatist, rather than an idealist, and therefore take a
pragmatic view of Libertarianism. Consequently, neither view of
idealism applies to me and my "Libertarianism".
Allen Rice
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...>
wrote:
Dear Allen;
Are we to presume you got no Idealism or do you have a different
definition of Idealism at least as it applies to the article as was
url'd to the original e-mail?
Ron Getty
SF LibertarianAllen Rice <amrcheck@...> wrote:
Neither.Allen Rice
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@>
wrote:
>
> Dear Everyone;
>
> An interesting article from Lew Rockwell about Idealism. The
author lists two definitions of idealism - which definition
applies
to you and your Libertarianism?
>
> 1) Existing as a mental image or in fancy or imagination only;
lacking practicality.
> 2) A standard of perfection, beauty or excellence; often taken
as a model for imitation; or an ultimate object or aim of endeavor.
>
> http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/singleton-a1.html
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>SPONSORED LINKS
U s government grant Libertarian party U s government
student loan California politics
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKSVisit your group "lpsf-discuss" on the web.
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Dear Allen;
Pragamatically speaking I include the last paragraph of the article from Lew Rockwell on Idealism and direct your attention to the last sentence of the last paragraph.
Perhaps never before have we been more in need of people willing to advocate high ideals and noble principles even in the face of ridicule or neglect by those with influence and authority. What the world needs are more champions of individual freedom, responsibility, persuasion and cooperation in opposition to the doctrines of coercion, collectivism, entitlement, envy and violence. We need fewer sheep who passively accept the world as it "really is" and more free-thinking individuals willing to see the world as it ought to be. What the world needs are more idealists and fewer pragmatists.
Any commentez vous??
Ron Getty
SF Libertarian
Allen Rice <amrcheck@...> wrote:
Ron,
I am a pragmatist, rather than an idealist, and therefore take a
pragmatic view of Libertarianism. Consequently, neither view of
idealism applies to me and my "Libertarianism".
Allen Rice
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...>
wrote:
Dear Allen;
Are we to presume you got no Idealism or do you have a different
definition of Idealism at least as it applies to the article as was
url'd to the original e-mail?
Ron Getty
SF LibertarianAllen Rice <amrcheck@...> wrote:
Neither.Allen Rice
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@>
wrote:
>
> Dear Everyone;
>
> An interesting article from Lew Rockwell about Idealism. The
author lists two definitions of idealism - which definition
applies
to you and your Libertarianism?
>
> 1) Existing as a mental image or in fancy or imagination only;
lacking practicality.
> 2) A standard of perfection, beauty or excellence; often taken
as a model for imitation; or an ultimate object or aim of endeavor.
>
> http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/singleton-a1.html
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>SPONSORED LINKS
U s government grant Libertarian party U s government
student loan California politics
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKSVisit your group "lpsf-discuss" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
lpsf-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
---------------------------------
SPONSORED LINKS
U s government grant Libertarian party U s government student loan California politics
Dear Ron,
Oh, you know I do.
1) I do not take Lew Rockwell (whoever the heck he is) as one of my
guiding lights.
2) Quote #1 "The great thing in this world is not so much where we
stand, but in what direction we are moving." - Oliver Wendell Holmes
3) and Quote #2 "Reason may be the lever, but sentiment gives you
the fulcrum and the place to stand on if you want to move the
world." - Holmes, again.
From which it should not be presumed that I am a great admirer of
Holmes. He issued some really lousy decisions while serving on the
Supreme Court.
But, if I want to engage in real politics, not just esoteric debates
in philosophy, my experience is that I get a better response by
dealing with the problems of the here and now, and showing how they
might be alleviated by taking short steps in the direction of more
freedom and responsibility, than I do by painting a picture of some
ideal world which is to be arrived at by a splendid leap of faith.
I have been accused of many things, but never of being passive.
Allen Rice
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...>
wrote:
Dear Allen;
Pragamatically speaking I include the last paragraph of the
article from Lew Rockwell on Idealism and direct your attention to
the last sentence of the last paragraph.
Perhaps never before have we been more in need of people willing
to advocate high ideals and noble principles even in the face of
ridicule or neglect by those with influence and authority. What the
world needs are more champions of individual freedom,
responsibility, persuasion and cooperation in opposition to the
doctrines of coercion, collectivism, entitlement, envy and violence.
We need fewer sheep who passively accept the world as it "really is"
and more free-thinking individuals willing to see the world as it
ought to be. What the world needs are more idealists and fewer
pragmatists.
Dear Allen;
First of all Lew Rockwell has a Libertarian web site which posts Libertarian oriented articles from various Libertarians. You could read over the various postings from the Archives section to get a sense of the feel of the variety of Libertarian oriented topics covered from a spectrum of Libertarians. From anarchy to chaos to traditional to whatever.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/
He also supports the Ludwig von Mises Institute a Libertarian economic think tank.Which also has very good economic viewpoint oriented Libertarian articles by established Libertarian economists and other assorted exalted Libertarians.
http://www.mises.org/
I include 2 paragraphs from the article by Aaron Singleton which I believe addresses your points:
This is what we should mean when we use the term "idealist." It is to hold in one�s mind certain ideals that one believes are achievable standards of perfection. It is to be an advocate of something better; something more just and humane than what currently exists. It constitutes a never-ending search for improvement. It is the relentless pursuit of new and better ways of thinking, living, cooperating and organizing. In short, it means to be principled, and such principles must be grounded in a correct understanding of human nature.
It is not a quixotic quest for some mythical bliss. An idealist does not seek to eradicate all injustice or to create a society free of crime. He understands that as long as men are rational beings with the ability to choose their own actions, there will always be some degree of cruelty and injustice. What he cannot and must not condone however, is this same injustice becoming justified and institutionalized.
Or more to the point as Gandhi stated: "A principle is a principle and in no case can it be watered down because of our incapacity to live it in practice. We have to strive to achieve it, and the striving should be conscious, deliberate and hard."
In other words, the author of the article Aaron Singleton was espousing what I will refer to as " Pragamatic Idealism" and was not espousing a splendid leap of faith....
Ron Getty
SF Libertarian
The Idealism Article URL:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/singleton-a1.html
Allen Rice <amrcheck@...> wrote:
Dear Ron,
Oh, you know I do.
1) I do not take Lew Rockwell (whoever the heck he is) as one of my
guiding lights.
2) Quote #1 "The great thing in this world is not so much where we
stand, but in what direction we are moving." - Oliver Wendell Holmes
3) and Quote #2 "Reason may be the lever, but sentiment gives you
the fulcrum and the place to stand on if you want to move the
world." - Holmes, again.
From which it should not be presumed that I am a great admirer of
Holmes. He issued some really lousy decisions while serving on the
Supreme Court.
But, if I want to engage in real politics, not just esoteric debates
in philosophy, my experience is that I get a better response by
dealing with the problems of the here and now, and showing how they
might be alleviated by taking short steps in the direction of more
freedom and responsibility, than I do by painting a picture of some
ideal world which is to be arrived at by a splendid leap of faith.
I have been accused of many things, but never of being passive.
Allen Rice
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...>
wrote:
Dear Allen;
Pragamatically speaking I include the last paragraph of the
article from Lew Rockwell on Idealism and direct your attention to
the last sentence of the last paragraph.
Perhaps never before have we been more in need of people willing
to advocate high ideals and noble principles even in the face of
ridicule or neglect by those with influence and authority. What the
world needs are more champions of individual freedom,
responsibility, persuasion and cooperation in opposition to the
doctrines of coercion, collectivism, entitlement, envy and violence.
We need fewer sheep who passively accept the world as it "really is"
and more free-thinking individuals willing to see the world as it
ought to be. What the world needs are more idealists and fewer
pragmatists.
Any commentez vous??
Ron Getty
SF Libertarian
SPONSORED LINKS
U s government grant Libertarian party U s government student loan California politics
Dear Ron,
I confess to having had a pretty good idea of who Rockwell is. I've
visited the site, and if I were content to continue being preached
at as part of the choir, I would have visited it again. But I'm not
and I didn't.
I suggest there is a great deal more to be learned about how the
world works, and how to fix its problems, by spending time with
sources which are NOT libertarian.
This thread began by pointing out, in an admittedly round about way,
that you had defined the world a bit too tightly - libertarians must
be idealists, and then of one sort or the other.
I deny it.
And "pragmatic idealism" is an oxymoron.
Allen Rice
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...>
wrote:
Dear Allen;
First of all Lew Rockwell has a Libertarian web site which posts
Libertarian oriented articles from various Libertarians. You could
read over the various postings from the Archives section to get a
sense of the feel of the variety of Libertarian oriented topics
covered from a spectrum of Libertarians. From anarchy to chaos to
traditional to whatever.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/
He also supports the Ludwig von Mises Institute a Libertarian
economic think tank.Which also has very good economic viewpoint
oriented Libertarian articles by established Libertarian economists
and other assorted exalted Libertarians.
http://www.mises.org/
I include 2 paragraphs from the article by Aaron Singleton
which I believe addresses your points:
This is what we should mean when we use the term "idealist."
It is to hold in one's mind certain ideals that one believes are
achievable standards of perfection. It is to be an advocate of
something better; something more just and humane than what currently
exists. It constitutes a never-ending search for improvement. It is
the relentless pursuit of new and better ways of thinking, living,
cooperating and organizing. In short, it means to be principled, and
such principles must be grounded in a correct understanding of human
nature.
It is not a quixotic quest for some mythical bliss. An idealist
does not seek to eradicate all injustice or to create a society free
of crime. He understands that as long as men are rational beings
with the ability to choose their own actions, there will always be
some degree of cruelty and injustice. What he cannot and must not
condone however, is this same injustice becoming justified and
institutionalized.
Or more to the point as Gandhi stated: "A principle is a
principle and in no case can it be watered down because of our
incapacity to live it in practice. We have to strive to achieve it,
and the striving should be conscious, deliberate and hard."
In other words, the author of the article Aaron Singleton was
espousing what I will refer to as " Pragamatic Idealism" and was not
espousing a splendid leap of faith....
Ron Getty
SF Libertarian
The Idealism Article URL:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/singleton-a1.html
Allen Rice <amrcheck@...> wrote:
Dear Ron,Oh, you know I do.
1) I do not take Lew Rockwell (whoever the heck he is) as one of
my
guiding lights.
2) Quote #1 "The great thing in this world is not so much where we
stand, but in what direction we are moving." - Oliver Wendell
Holmes
3) and Quote #2 "Reason may be the lever, but sentiment gives you
the fulcrum and the place to stand on if you want to move the
world." - Holmes, again.From which it should not be presumed that I am a great admirer of
Holmes. He issued some really lousy decisions while serving on
the
Supreme Court.
But, if I want to engage in real politics, not just esoteric
debates
in philosophy, my experience is that I get a better response by
dealing with the problems of the here and now, and showing how
they
might be alleviated by taking short steps in the direction of more
freedom and responsibility, than I do by painting a picture of
some
ideal world which is to be arrived at by a splendid leap of faith.
I have been accused of many things, but never of being passive.
Allen Rice
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@>
wrote:
>
> Dear Allen;
>
> Pragamatically speaking I include the last paragraph of the
article from Lew Rockwell on Idealism and direct your attention to
the last sentence of the last paragraph.
>
> Perhaps never before have we been more in need of people
willing
to advocate high ideals and noble principles even in the face of
ridicule or neglect by those with influence and authority. What
the
world needs are more champions of individual freedom,
responsibility, persuasion and cooperation in opposition to the
doctrines of coercion, collectivism, entitlement, envy and
violence.
We need fewer sheep who passively accept the world as it "really
is"
and more free-thinking individuals willing to see the world as it
ought to be. What the world needs are more idealists and fewer
pragmatists.
>
> Any commentez vous??
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
>SPONSORED LINKS
U s government grant Libertarian party U s government
student loan California politics
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKSVisit your group "lpsf-discuss" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
lpsf-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
Dear Allen;
As far as Lew Rockwell goes I read it to pick up thoughts and ideas Libertarianism wise. While it is preaching to the choir it is still useful.
Oxymoron??? You mean something like: "Military and/or Government Intelligence and/or Justice " or "Jumbo Shrimp" or "Compassionate Conservative" or one of my favorites " Anarchy Rules" or "Christian Militia"???
Btw in Chicago or New York have you ever ridden the " Elevated Subway"???
Pragamatically speaking: Why do stripper's need a dressing room?
Or as people like to say let's stop arresting people for: " Victimless Crime ". If there is no victim how can there be a crime and if there is no crime how can there be a victim of a crime???
However, be that as it may be, being a pragamatic idealist in the context of the article could be achievable - oxymoron wise or otherwise.
Ron Getty
SF Libertarian
Allen Rice <amrcheck@...> wrote:
Dear Ron,
I confess to having had a pretty good idea of who Rockwell is. I've
visited the site, and if I were content to continue being preached
at as part of the choir, I would have visited it again. But I'm not
and I didn't.
I suggest there is a great deal more to be learned about how the
world works, and how to fix its problems, by spending time with
sources which are NOT libertarian.
This thread began by pointing out, in an admittedly round about way,
that you had defined the world a bit too tightly - libertarians must
be idealists, and then of one sort or the other.
I deny it.
And "pragmatic idealism" is an oxymoron.
Allen Rice
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...>
wrote:
Dear Allen;
First of all Lew Rockwell has a Libertarian web site which posts
Libertarian oriented articles from various Libertarians. You could
read over the various postings from the Archives section to get a
sense of the feel of the variety of Libertarian oriented topics
covered from a spectrum of Libertarians. From anarchy to chaos to
traditional to whatever.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/
He also supports the Ludwig von Mises Institute a Libertarian
economic think tank.Which also has very good economic viewpoint
oriented Libertarian articles by established Libertarian economists
and other assorted exalted Libertarians.
http://www.mises.org/
I include 2 paragraphs from the article by Aaron Singleton
which I believe addresses your points:
This is what we should mean when we use the term "idealist."
It is to hold in one's mind certain ideals that one believes are
achievable standards of perfection. It is to be an advocate of
something better; something more just and humane than what currently
exists. It constitutes a never-ending search for improvement. It is
the relentless pursuit of new and better ways of thinking, living,
cooperating and organizing. In short, it means to be principled, and
such principles must be grounded in a correct understanding of human
nature.
It is not a quixotic quest for some mythical bliss. An idealist
does not seek to eradicate all injustice or to create a society free
of crime. He understands that as long as men are rational beings
with the ability to choose their own actions, there will always be
some degree of cruelty and injustice. What he cannot and must not
condone however, is this same injustice becoming justified and
institutionalized.
Or more to the point as Gandhi stated: "A principle is a
principle and in no case can it be watered down because of our
incapacity to live it in practice. We have to strive to achieve it,
and the striving should be conscious, deliberate and hard."
In other words, the author of the article Aaron Singleton was
espousing what I will refer to as " Pragamatic Idealism" and was not
espousing a splendid leap of faith....
Ron Getty
SF Libertarian
The Idealism Article URL:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/singleton-a1.html
Allen Rice <amrcheck@...> wrote:
Dear Ron,Oh, you know I do.
1) I do not take Lew Rockwell (whoever the heck he is) as one of
my
guiding lights.
2) Quote #1 "The great thing in this world is not so much where we
stand, but in what direction we are moving." - Oliver Wendell
Holmes
3) and Quote #2 "Reason may be the lever, but sentiment gives you
the fulcrum and the place to stand on if you want to move the
world." - Holmes, again.From which it should not be presumed that I am a great admirer of
Holmes. He issued some really lousy decisions while serving on
the
Supreme Court.
But, if I want to engage in real politics, not just esoteric
debates
in philosophy, my experience is that I get a better response by
dealing with the problems of the here and now, and showing how
they
might be alleviated by taking short steps in the direction of more
freedom and responsibility, than I do by painting a picture of
some
ideal world which is to be arrived at by a splendid leap of faith.
I have been accused of many things, but never of being passive.
Allen Rice
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@>
wrote:
>
> Dear Allen;
>
> Pragamatically speaking I include the last paragraph of the
article from Lew Rockwell on Idealism and direct your attention to
the last sentence of the last paragraph.
>
> Perhaps never before have we been more in need of people
willing
to advocate high ideals and noble principles even in the face of
ridicule or neglect by those with influence and authority. What
the
world needs are more champions of individual freedom,
responsibility, persuasion and cooperation in opposition to the
doctrines of coercion, collectivism, entitlement, envy and
violence.
We need fewer sheep who passively accept the world as it "really
is"
and more free-thinking individuals willing to see the world as it
ought to be. What the world needs are more idealists and fewer
pragmatists.
>
> Any commentez vous??
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
>SPONSORED LINKS
U s government grant Libertarian party U s government
student loan California politics
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKSVisit your group "lpsf-discuss" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
lpsf-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
---------------------------------
SPONSORED LINKS
U s government grant Libertarian party U s government student loan California politics