Also hurt are the consumers in N. Korea who without the ban would have been enjoying iPods.
Best, Michael
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If not advocating armed conflict indicates a lack of concern, can we conclude Mohandas Ghandi was unconcerned with India's fate?
- Steve
Dear Derek;
When you are literally starving to death from famine with a death
toll of some 300,000 to 2,000,000 while living under the control of a
militaristic police state and having literally every aspect of your
life scrutinized you really don't have heck of a lot of time to form
a guerilla unit large enough with enough stolen arms to overthrow the
state.
Commentez vous of the lack of armed conflict being pushed by exile
groups disregards the hard harsh conditions in North Korea of life -
such as it exists - and the extreme un-likelihood of any group
getting larger than two or three local people - not the widespread
network absolutely required to overthrow a police state regime.
Perhaps you might want to revisit Mazlow's Hierarchy of Needs - first
food shelter clothing - then when those most basic needs are
satisfied you can think about revolution.
Ron Getty
SF Libertarian
--- In lpsf-discuss@...m, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@...>
wrote:
I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for the North Koreans. They
don't seem
too interested in throwing off the yoke of dictatorship and
oppression,
which the lack of North Korean exile groups pushing for armed
conflict would
seem to indicate.
>
> Also hurt are the consumers in N. Korea who without the ban
would have
> been enjoying iPods.
>
> Best, Michael
>
> *To:* Libertarian Yahoo Group <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 29, 2006 7:21 PM
> *Subject:* [lpsf-discuss] US Gets Real Tough With North Korea and
bans
> ipod sales to N. Korea.
>
>
> Dear Everyone;
>
> The Bush administration shows its tough side by banning ipod
sales to
> North Korea. I am certain Benevolent Friendly Leader Kim Jong II
is
> shattered and will give all his nuclear weapons and secrets to
the US just
> so he can get his hands on an ipod. Like how difficult is it
going to be for
> someone somewhere outside of N. Korea to get their hands on any
of the
> banned goods and get it to Kind Uncle Kim Jong II?
>
> The only people hurt are the companies who build and export the
goods on
> the banned list. Do I hear - Black Market anyone?
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
>
> *http://tinyurl.com/yhga8k*
> **
>
> *U.S. Bans Sale of iPods to North Korea*
>
>
> In a novel effort targeting the lifestyle of North Korea's
eccentric
> president, the Bush administration wants to make it tougher for
him to buy
> iPods, plasma televisions, Segway electric scooters and more.
>
> It is Washington's first-ever attempt to use trade penalties as a
way of
> personally aggravating a foreign leader. They target items
believed to be
> favored by Kim Jong Il or presented by him as gifts to the
roughly 600
> loyalist families who run the communist government.
>
> Kim, who orchestrated a secret nuclear weapons program despite
> international efforts to stop him, has other options for
obtaining high-end
> consumer electronics and other luxuries.
>
> But the list of proposed U.S. penalties, obtained by The
Associated Press,
> aims to make Kim's swanky life harder: No more cognac, Rolex
watches,
> cigarettes, artwork, expensive cars, Harley Davidson motorcycles
or even
> personal watercraft, such as Jet Skis.
>
> The ban would extend even to musical instruments and sports
equipment. The
> 5-foot-3 Kim is an enthusiastic basketball fan; Secretary of
State Madeleine
> Albright presented him with a ball signed by Michael Jordan
during a rare
> diplomatic trip in 2000. Kim's former secretary, widely believed
to be his
> new wife, studied piano at North Korea's Pyongyang University of
Music and
> Dance.
>
> "While North Korea's people starve and suffer, there is simply no
excuse
> for the regime to be splurging on cognac and cigars," Commerce
Secretary
> Carlos M. Gutierrez said Wednesday in a statement. "We will ban
the export
> of these and other luxury goods that are purchased for no other
reason than
> to benefit North Korea's governing elite."
>
> Gutierrez said penalized items were "carefully considered and
carefully
> targeted."
>
> Experts said the U.S. luxury sanctions would be the first ever to
curtail
> a specific category of goods not associated with military
buildups or
> weapons designs - and the first tailored to annoy a foreign
leader. They
> acknowledge that enforcing the ban on black-market trading would
be
> difficult.
>
> "He's got folks who can move around nuclear weapons. If he tells
these
> guys to get him a case of Scotch, they're going to pull it off,"
said James
> A. Lewis, a former State Department official who worked on arms
controls.
> "Unless it's too large to fit into the cargo hold of a commercial
aircraft,
> it's going to be tough to restrain him."
>
> In Beijing, U.S. and North Korean diplomats failed to reach
agreement on
> when they might resume disarmament negotiations on Kim's atomic
weapons
> program. Japan's Kyodo News agency cited unidentified people at
the talks as
> saying that Kim demanded the U.S. freeze the penalties on luxury
goods and
> other items imposed after the North's first nuclear test on Oct.
9.
>
> The population in North Korea, one of the world's most isolated
economies,
> is impoverished and routinely suffers food shortages. The new
trade ban
> would forbid U.S. shipments there of Rolexes, French cognac,
plasma TVs,
> yachts and more - all items favored by Kim but unattainable by
most of the
> country.
>
> "It's a new concept. It's kind of creative," said William
Reinsch, a
> former senior Commerce Department official who oversaw trade
restrictions
> with North Korea under President Clinton.
>
> Reinsch predicted governments will comply with the restrictions,
but
> agreed trying to block all underground shipments will be
frustrating.
>
> Practically, few American companies ship anything to North Korea.
U.S.
> exports amounted to only $5.8 million last year. Nearly all of it
was food.
> Although the new penalties would cover "personal digital music
players,"
> such as iPods, *Microsoft Corp.* (nasdaq:
MSFT<http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/jsp/finance/compinfo/CIAtAGlanc
e.jsp?tkr=MSFT>- news
> <http://www.forbes.com/markets/company_news.jhtml?ticker=MSFT>\-
people
startRow=0&name=&ticker=MSFT>)
> said its new "Zune" handheld player was never intended for sales
overseas.
>
> The Distilled Spirits Council of the United States, the trade
group for
> the liquor industry, said it supports the administration's
policies toward
> North Korea. The Washington-based Personal Watercraft Industry
Association
> said it also supports the penalties - although it bristled at
suggestions a
> Jet Ski was a luxury item.
>
> "The thousands of Americans and Canadians who build, ship and sell
> personal watercraft are patriots first," said Maureen Healey,
head of the
> trade group. She said it endorsed the ban "because of the narrow
nature of
> this ban and the genuine dangers that responsible world
governments are
> trying to stave off."
>
> Defectors to South Korea have described Kim giving expensive
gifts of
> cars, liquor and Japanese-made appliances to his most faithful
bureaucrats.
>
> "If you take away one of the tools of his control, perhaps you
weaken the
> cohesion of his leadership," said Robert J. Einhorn, a former
State
> Department official who visited North Korea with Albright and
dined
> extravagantly there. "It can't hurt, but whether it works, we
don't know."
>
> In response to North Korea's nuclear test Oct. 9, the U.N.
Security
> Council banned military supplies and weapons shipments. It also
banned sales
> of luxury goods, but so far has left each country to define such
items.
> Japan included beef, caviar and fatty tuna, along with expensive
cars,
> motorcycles, cameras and more. Many European nations are working
on their
> lists.
>
> The U.S. submitted its proposals to the United Nations, which is
> coordinating the ban on luxury goods. The United Nations
eventually will
> produce its own list, but that will not preclude the U.S. from a
broader
> range of items.
>
> U.S. intelligence officials who helped produce the Bush
administration's
> list said Kim prefers Mercedes, BMW and Cadillac cars; Japanese
and Harley
> Davidson motorcycles; Hennessy XO cognac from France and Johnny
Walker
> Scotch whisky; *Sony* (nyse:
SNE<http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/jsp/finance/compinfo/CIAtAGlance
.jsp?tkr=SNE>- news
> <http://www.forbes.com/markets/company_news.jhtml?ticker=SNE>\-
people
startRow=0&name=&ticker=SNE>)
> cameras and Japanese air conditioners.
>
> Kim reportedly is under his physician's orders to avoid hard
liquor and
> prefers French wines. He also is said to own an extensive movie
library of
> more than 10,000 titles and prefers films about James Bond and
Godzilla,
> along with Clint Eastwood's 1993 drama, "In the Line of Fire,"
and Whitney
> Houston's 1992 love story, "The Bodyguard."
>
> Much of the U.S. information about Kim's preferences comes from
defectors,
> including Kenji Fujimoto, the Japanese chef who fled in 2001 and
wrote a
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I agree that his tactic was effective because of the attributes of British system though I credit democracy and not religion (ask the South Americans or Africans about the helpfulness of a Christian moral sensibility when it comes to dealing with European powers).
But my point was that not advocating violence isn't in itself indicative of complacency - particularly if violence 1) is not the most effective way of solving the problem or 2) will not work or 3) will create a situation worse than the problem itself.
Large scale social dynamics are not so simply engineered. I find it curious that some libertarian minded folks who accept that governments are incompetent at domestic social engineering will advocate it use abroad as long as it involves killing people.
- Steve