[David]
I don't know enough about pit bulls (my fancy is cats not dogs) to say. But I have heard stories of some friendly pit bulls, so it is not impossible.<<
I believe our very own Terry Floyd (of the EBLP) has a dog that is a pit bull and is friendly. We fold newletters every month at Terry's home with the dog freely about us, getting petted and such, and no one has been hurt yet.
Rich
you always here about how friendly some particular individuals pitt bull is, and then you talk to that individual a year or so later after they are just recovering from plastic surgery to undo the random and uncharacteristic attack they received from the same animal. i think common sense would say that if a dog has been breed to kill it might not make a good pet? granted that's just me and i do believe all people should have the freedom to flirt with their own mortality in any way they see fit.
jay
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Personally, I would buy a mongoose, which would accidentally escape
into the cobra owner's yard. I would prefer to deal with the
situation in a Darwinian way (may the best guy win), than give power
to the government to say "no" to the cobras today, and tomorrow "no"
to my chosen lifestyle.
Marcy
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Derek Jensen <derekj72@g...>
wrote:
I'd like to take this debate to a more more extreme hypothetical
situation.
I would like to here the Libertarian response to the situation I
describe.
1. You own a house in San Francisco.
2. The house next door to you is for sale. I buy it and move in.
3. But instead of breed pit bulls, I breed King Cobras. You've
heard some
rumors and actually seen some evidence that I'm pretty sloppy with
my
control of the cobras and that from time to time one slips away. No
one has
been hurt though I assure you.
4. You come and talk to me, explaining that you have young children
and
would I please not raise the cobras any more.
5. I tell you "Look buddy, I'm on my own property. No one has ever
been hurt
by my snakes. I have a right to raise them here"
Question: What remedies should i have to deal with the situation?
Should my
only remedy be to move? I suppose the anarchists among us will have
a
different answer here than the limited-government types. One of the
situations I always felt is difficult to assess in terms of
individual
rights is that of the "gathering threat". I have to believe the
answer is
not government involvement, but i am also uneasy that there is no
remedy for
the neighbor that is not raising the king cobras.
I see this hypothetical problem is also very similar to that of
noise
pollution, in that there is a negative externality created which
decreases
the value of the original property owner's rights, but he is not
compensated.
Comments?>
> you always here about how friendly some particular individuals
pitt
> bull is, and then you talk to that individual a year or so later
after
> they are just recovering from plastic surgery to undo the random
and
> uncharacteristic attack they received from the same animal. i
think
> common sense would say that if a dog has been breed to kill it
might
> not make a good pet? granted that's just me and i do believe all
people
> should have the freedom to flirt with their own mortality in any
way
> they see fit.
>
> jay
>
>
>
> > [David]
> > >>I don't know enough about pit bulls (my fancy is cats not
dogs) to
> > say. But I have heard stories of some friendly pit bulls, so it
is
> > not impossible.<<
> >
> > I believe our very own Terry Floyd(of the EBLP) has adog that
is a
> > pit bull and isfriendly. We fold newletters every month at
Terry's
> > home with the dog freely about us, getting petted and such, and
no one
> > has been hurt yet.
> >
> > Rich
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: DAVID GOGGIN
> > To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 3:41 PM
> > Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: URGENT ACTION ITEM:
> > Libertarian-sounding group needs help fighting anti-pit bull
> > legislation
> >
> > This is a very interesting discussion and one that has helped me
> > conceptualize my views more clearly!
> > Thus far, I think Starchild is exactly on point.
> >
> > >Do they believe that individual rights exist only for humans,
and
> > that when
> > >it comes to animals, it's OK to brand entire groups as
dangerous?
> >
> > No.
> >
> > I think the belief is that individual pit bulls have a right to
be
> > deemed
> > innocent until proven guilty and also enjoy the same duty of
care we'd
> > expect for a baby human.
> >
> > > I do agree that sentient beings have the right not to be
> > intentionally
> > >brought into the world with genetic defects, and I would
consider a
> > >predisposition toward violence to be such a defect.
> >
> > I would too, though not as such, but perhaps because the being's
> > natural
> > desire to run around having fun attacking things is always
thwarted,
> > or its
> > tendency is used to its own harm (e.g. in intentionally staged
dog
> > fights)
> >
> > >Once such an animal is in the world, however, do we assume
that he or
> > she
> > >cannot exist without engaging in inappropriate violence?
> >
> > I don't know enough about pit bulls (my fancy is cats not dogs)
to
> > say. But
> > I have heard stories of some friendly pit bulls, so it is not
> > impossible.
> > And your argument from statistics is compelling.
> >
> > The question is whether the risk to public safety outweighs the
> > freedom to
> > have a presumably friendly or controllable pit bull as a pet.
> >
> > >And the capacity to think rationally obviously does not stop
many
> > humans
> > >from committing violent, irrational acts, while many dogs do
succeed
> > in
> > >avoiding such acts despite lacking the capacity for rational
thought.
> > So it
> > >makes little sense to me to use that capacity as the standard
by
> > which a
> > >human or non-human animal is judged to be worthy of having
individual
> > >rights and not prima facie declared unacceptably dangerous to
polite
Derek - I think there are numerous options for
recourse here, although you may find a few of them
impractical.
I could -
1. Build a fence or wall on my property for protection
2. Install a snake security system that might include
motion detectors and ultra/infrasound emitters that
deter snakes.
3. Educate my children on what to do if they encounter
a snake (or other animals like stray dogs)
4. Acquire animals that are natural predators to
snakes that will either kill them or at least alert me
to their presence.(mongoose)
5. Hire a security guard with a gun to kill any
intruders.
6. Move to a gated community with deed restrictions
that forbid 'dangerous' animals.
7. Move to the country. Buy a house in the sticks far
away from other people where I am less likely to be
threatened or disturbed by human actions.
Of course I'm assuming you aren't breeding snakes to
hunt for humans on my property. If have evidence of
that, I would sue you. I would also sue you for
endangerment if I could somehow prove you are
negligent with your breeding methods or housing.
I don't think cobras and offensive sounds are in the
same category though. I might prove actual damages
from sound that comes on my property, as opposed to
possible damages from snakes.
David
--- Derek Jensen <derekj72@...> wrote:
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