The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

http://www.blacklistednews.com/The_Most_Destructive_Presidencies_in_American_History%2C_Part_2%3A_The_Fatal_Incoherence_of_the_BushObama_Foreign_Policy/36013/0/0/0/Y/M.html
The Most Destructive Presidencies in American History, Part 2: The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy
June 18, 2014
         
Source: Charles Hugh Smith

The tragic reality is the Bush II/Obama administrations have made the world a far more dangerous place.

A great many rationales have been floated for the most destructive foreign policy in American history, i.e. the fatally incoherent policies of the Bush II/Obama presidencies.

These rationales come in several flavors:

1. The official administration (public relations) rationales

2. The not-so-secret rationales of Empire and realpolitik

3. Conspiracy-type rationales proposed by outsiders

The official rationale has two basic variations:

1. The (now repudiated) Neoconservative agenda of remaking the world in our image (i.e. neoliberal democracy) with military force and nation-building.

2. The longstanding policy of hemming in hostile ideologies and empires with alliances, mutually beneficial trade arrangements and the threat of overwhelming military response to any over-reach by hostile nation-states and/or alliances.

The unspoken goal of maintaining U.S. military, diplomatic, economic and cultural dominance is the not-so-secret rationale of Global Empire. From the point of view ofrealpolitik, the official rationales serve as the PR facades of Empire.

Realpolitik is the unspoken underbelly of both official rationales: the essence ofrealpolitik is the ends justify the means: if we have to kiss up to psychopathic dictators, kleptocrats, brutal juntas, extremist groups, unsavory guns-for-hire and even regimes that are visibly hostile to American values and dominance to reach operational goals (for example kill the bad guys), so be it: we will do anything necessary to further our short-term operational goals.

The problem with this kind of short-term thinking in an incoherent strategy is that it only serves expediency: without a coherent strategy based on core values and deeply informed, clearly defined national interests based on those values, expediency inevitably leads to blowback.

In incoherent policies such as those pursued by Bush II/Obama, expedient operations lead to failures that trigger more secrecy and expediency, and there is no end to the failure born of expediency and avoidance of accountability.

Examples of conspiracy-type rationales include One-World agendas fostered by elite groups such as Bilderburg. I find these much less persuasive than good old Empire (i.e. global dominance), because we have to remember that the leadership has to have a narrative that "sells" the tens of thousands of people who are the operational core of the Empire an idealistic and idealized rationale for their sacrifice of morals, values and often their lives.

Serving an Elite agenda isn't persuasive, and neither is neocon nation-building. What sells is "fighting the enemy before they bring the battle to our Homeland" and the broad service of American Interests, i.e. #2 above: the fostering of democracy and Neoliberal Capitalism with soft power (alliances, trade, loans, etc.) and striking devastating blows to potential enemies before they can organize a strike against us.

The fundamental incoherence arises from the conflicting narratives and goals of these rationales. Precisely how can we serve American Interests by trashing the values we espouse and supporting the very psychopaths, juntas and extremists who foment the sort of instability that threaten American Interests?

If the Master Narrative of U.S. foreign policy is the ends justify the means, then clearly we have chosen our means very poorly.

This raises the larger question of whether a foreign policy that requires actively undermining our values and purported goals of democracy, open markets, stability and prosperity for all can possibly achieve its goal of maintaining Imperial dominance. if the victims of our realpolitik policies and those we have tasked with implementing them both lose faith in the American Project, then it is operationally impossible to win hearts and minds with more drone strikes, more laser-guided bombs and more alliances with the dregs of humanity.

Simplistic ideologies such as Neoconservatism fail in the complex environment of the real world. We might profitably recall that the 1960s equivalent of Neoconservatism was the "domino theory" that held that all small nation-states in a region were prone to "falling like dominoes" to Communist insurgencies, regardless of their history, culture, society, economy and form of government.

In other words, the stubborn ignorance of U.S. foreign policy based on ideological simplicities is near-infinite.

The second source of incoherence is the legalistic mindset that everything can be finessed with more words and policy refinements. This legalistic approach--so clearly the dominant mindset of the Obama administration--is one manifestation of American Exceptionalism: that not only can we remake the world in our astonishingly parochial image, but that we can control the world like we control the power structure at home: by finessing problems with legalistic subtleties ("it depends on the definition of is") and threatening overwhelming violence (just lace demonstrators with pepper spray and threaten whistleblowers with life in prison) to make the problem go away.

That this legalistic mindset guarantees failure in the real world is lost on those devoted to legalizing all of their extra-legal policies--if not in principle then in name.

Legalizing secrecy, ignorance and killing does not make magically transform these abuses of power into a successful policy. This may well summarize the Bush II/Obama administrations in history.

The vast ignorance at the heart of the Bush II/Obama foreign policy is breath-taking. We can argue about the ignorance of these two destructive presidents, but I see little to contest the ignorance of the policies and the institutions that make the operational decisions.

There are smart, well-informed and globally experienced people in the U.S. government, but they are ignored, dismissed or marginalized precisely because their knowledge threatens the incoherent mess that passes for foreign policy in these catastrophically inept presidencies.

The defining characteristic of the Bush II/Obama administrations is the reliance on secrecy--not to protect "national security" but to avoid accountability. If the operation is secret, its failure can be safely buried. This is the reason why everything is classified in the Bush II/Obama administrations: transparency and public knowledge are anathema because they enable scrutiny and analysis and eventually, accountability.

Secrecy is all about avoiding accountability. "National security" is the facade.

Secrecy is the refuge of every dictatorship, totalitarian regime and fascist junta on the planet. We need only look at the savage response of the Obama administration to whistleblowers who have risked their careers and livelihoods, not to mention their freedom, to expose the most egregious violations of the Constitution and American values to see just how dependent the Obama administration is on secrecy to avoid accountability.

Bush II was no better: using proxies (private contractors, local militia, etc.) has a long history in the U.S. Imperial Project as a way of avoiding accountability and scrutiny, but the Bush II/Obama foreign policy is totally dependent on proxies of one kind or another (consider the explosive rise in the use of killer drones, Obama's favored proxy).

The real world is not as forgiving as a bought-and-paid-for media; blowback takes many forms. The incoherence of the Bush II/Obama administrations is not only reaping horrendous harvests in the playgrounds of their Imperial ambitions, it is eroding the American public's trust in their government and the institutions that claim to protect them in a dangerous world.

The tragic reality is the Bush II/Obama administrations have made the world a far more dangerous place. That is blowback writ large.

None of this is new; it's all well-documented in the public record. The list of books written about the destructive consequences of the Bush II/Obama foreign policies is long; here is a short list of worthy titles to explore:

The Family Jewels: The CIA, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
The Way of the Knife: The CIA, a Secret Army, and a War at the Ends of the Earth
The Occupation of Iraq: Winning the War, Losing the Peace
Nemesis: The Last Days of the American Republic
Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq
Hubris: The Inside Story of Spin, Scandal, and the Selling of the Iraq War
Imperial Life in the Emerald City: Inside Iraq's Green Zone
Licensed to Kill: Hired Guns in the War on Terror
The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11
Imperial Hubris: Why the West Is Losing the War on Terror
State of Denial: Bush at War, Part III
Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001
See No Evil: The True Story of a Ground Soldier in the CIA's War on Terrorism

We know the captain and officers of the ship are boobs.

How much longer will we talk about it before we do something? Or will we continue to talk about the boobs until we hit the rocks for real?

There is an entirely different conversation required, if we want to avoid the shipwreck. There is no room in that conversation, for any mention of the boobs or their failures.

The only subject that is relevant to survival is control of the ship. Without that conversation, it is the same as suicide.

To illustrate the concept with another analogy, the continued conversation about the pilot flying into the mountains is suicidal.

The survival conversation is about control of the aircraft:
Where is the cockpit?
Where is the stick?
Where are the engine controls?
Who will take the stick?
Who will help?
Who moves first, second, third?
What actions will be taken?

________________________________
From: "Nina Ortega ortegan@... [Freed-M]" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>
To: "bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com" <bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com>; "lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>; "Freed-M@yahoogroups.com" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 12:21 PM
Subject: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

http://www.blacklistednews.com/The_Most_Destructive_Presidencies_in_American_History%2C_Part_2%3A_The_Fatal_Incoherence_of_the_BushObama_Foreign_Policy/36013/0/0/0/Y/M.html

The Most Destructive Presidencies in American History, Part 2: The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy
June 18, 2014
       
Source: Charles Hugh Smith

The tragic reality is the Bush II/Obama administrations have made the world a far more dangerous place.

A great many rationales have been floated for the most destructive foreign policy in American history, i.e. the fatally incoherent policies of the Bush II/Obama presidencies.

These rationales come in several flavors:

1. The official administration (public relations) rationales

2. The not-so-secret rationales of Empire and realpolitik

3. Conspiracy-type rationales proposed by outsiders

The official rationale has two basic variations:

1. The (now repudiated) Neoconservative agenda of remaking the world in our image (i.e. neoliberal democracy) with military force and nation-building.

2. The longstanding policy of hemming in hostile ideologies and empires with alliances, mutually beneficial trade arrangements and the threat of overwhelming military response to any over-reach by hostile nation-states and/or alliances.

The unspoken goal of maintaining U.S. military, diplomatic, economic and cultural dominance is the not-so-secret rationale of Global Empire. From the point of view ofrealpolitik, the official rationales serve as the PR facades of Empire.

Realpolitik is the unspoken underbelly of both official rationales: the essence ofrealpolitik is the ends justify the means: if we have to kiss up to psychopathic dictators, kleptocrats, brutal juntas, extremist groups, unsavory guns-for-hire and even regimes that are visibly hostile to American values and dominance to reach operational goals (for

example kill the bad guys), so be it: we will do anything necessary to further our short-term operational goals.

The problem with this kind of short-term thinking in an incoherent strategy is that it only serves expediency: without a coherent strategy based on core values and deeply informed, clearly defined national interests based on those values, expediency inevitably leads to blowback.

In incoherent policies such as those pursued by Bush II/Obama, expedient operations lead to failures that trigger more secrecy and expediency, and there is no end to the failure born of expediency and avoidance of accountability.

Examples of conspiracy-type rationales include One-World agendas fostered by elite groups such as Bilderburg. I find these much less persuasive than good old Empire (i.e. global dominance), because we have to remember that the leadership has to have a narrative that "sells" the tens

of thousands of people who are the operational core of the Empire an idealistic and idealized rationale for their sacrifice of morals, values and often their lives.

Serving an Elite agenda isn't persuasive, and neither is neocon nation-building. What sells is "fighting the enemy before they bring the battle to our Homeland" and the broad service of American Interests, i.e. #2 above: the fostering of democracy and Neoliberal Capitalism with soft power (alliances, trade, loans, etc.) and striking devastating blows to potential enemies before they can organize a strike against us.

The fundamental incoherence arises from the conflicting narratives and goals of these rationales. Precisely how can we serve American Interests by trashing the values we espouse and supporting the very psychopaths, juntas and extremists who foment the sort of instability that threaten American Interests?

If the

Master Narrative of U.S. foreign policy is the ends justify the means, then clearly we have chosen our means very poorly.

This raises the larger question of whether a foreign policy that requires actively undermining our values and purported goals of democracy, open markets, stability and prosperity for all can possibly achieve its goal of maintaining Imperial dominance. if the victims of our realpolitik policies and those we have tasked with implementing them both lose faith in the American Project, then it is operationally impossible to win hearts and minds with more drone strikes, more laser-guided bombs and more alliances with the dregs of humanity.

Simplistic ideologies such as Neoconservatism fail in the complex environment of the real world. We might profitably recall that the 1960s equivalent of Neoconservatism was the "domino theory" that held that all small nation-states in a region were prone

to "falling like dominoes" to Communist insurgencies, regardless of their history, culture, society, economy and form of government.

In other words, the stubborn ignorance of U.S. foreign policy based on ideological simplicities is near-infinite.

The second source of incoherence is the legalistic mindset that everything can be finessed with more words and policy refinements. This legalistic approach--so clearly the dominant mindset of the Obama administration--is one manifestation of American Exceptionalism: that not only can we remake the world in our astonishingly parochial image, but that we can control the world like we control the power structure at home: by finessing problems with legalistic subtleties ("it depends on the definition of is") and threatening overwhelming violence (just lace demonstrators with pepper spray and threaten whistleblowers with life in prison) to make the problem go away.

That

this legalistic mindset guarantees failure in the real world is lost on those devoted to legalizing all of their extra-legal policies--if not in principle then in name.

Legalizing secrecy, ignorance and killing does not make magically transform these abuses of power into a successful policy. This may well summarize the Bush II/Obama administrations in history.

The vast ignorance at the heart of the Bush II/Obama foreign policy is breath-taking. We can argue about the ignorance of these two destructive presidents, but I see little to contest the ignorance of the policies and the institutions that make the operational decisions.

There are smart, well-informed and globally experienced people in the U.S. government, but they are ignored, dismissed or marginalized precisely because their knowledge threatens the incoherent mess that passes for foreign policy in these catastrophically inept presidencies.

The

defining characteristic of the Bush II/Obama administrations is the reliance on secrecy--not to protect "national security" but to avoid accountability. If the operation is secret, its failure can be safely buried. This is the reason why everything is classified in the Bush II/Obama administrations: transparency and public knowledge are anathema because they enable scrutiny and analysis and eventually, accountability.

Secrecy is all about avoiding accountability. "National security" is the facade.

Secrecy is the refuge of every dictatorship, totalitarian regime and fascist junta on the planet. We need only look at the savage response of the Obama administration to whistleblowers who have risked their careers and livelihoods, not to mention their freedom, to expose the most egregious violations of the Constitution and American values to see just how dependent the Obama administration is on secrecy to avoid

accountability.

Bush II was no better: using proxies (private contractors, local militia, etc.) has a long history in the U.S. Imperial Project as a way of avoiding accountability and scrutiny, but the Bush II/Obama foreign policy is totally dependent on proxies of one kind or another (consider the explosive rise in the use of killer drones, Obama's favored proxy).

The real world is not as forgiving as a bought-and-paid-for media; blowback takes many forms. The incoherence of the Bush II/Obama administrations is not only reaping horrendous harvests in the playgrounds of their Imperial ambitions, it is eroding the American public's trust in their government and the institutions that claim to protect them in a dangerous world.

The tragic reality is the Bush II/Obama administrations have made the world a far more dangerous place. That is blowback writ large.

None of this is new; it's all well-documented in the

public record. The list of books written about the destructive consequences of the Bush II/Obama foreign policies is long; here is a short list of worthy titles to explore:

Good questions. Too bad you have not offered any answers.

BTW, I liked your message about out of control teens whose parents do not take away the keys and the credit card.

Marcy

I have offered a solution. I have called lots of people to begin a conversation about planning something...anything...building a society that has enough stones to say "NO" and "take away the keys and credit card"...no one calls me back.

I can only assume no one actually gives a s***, beyond complaining, submitting to the unfavorable conditions, and meeting occasionally to share misery.

Of course this is hyperbole, and I know there has been massive psychological damage and emotional conditioning/abuse to prevent anything else but supplication and submission.

But still, it is clear there will be no one else to change things, besides us, but we do not make arrangements with each other, at a pace and level to remodel a birdbath, much less build a robust society.

So far, the next generation is inheriting a poverty of spirit and resolve to match the debt, squandered liberty, and indenture they will get from us.

At least the LGBT has been more forthright in many regards, even re-taking control of flagship events.

It's a damn shame no one else is.

But maybe one day the phone will ring and there will be someone on the other end, taking the future of the next generation as seriously as the future of the next generation.

John
707-623-6005

________________________________
From: "Marcy Berry amarcyb@... [lpsf-discuss]" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
To: "lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 3:23 PM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

Good questions. Too bad you have not offered any answers.

BTW, I liked your message about out of control teens whose parents do not take away the keys and the credit card.

Marcy

________________________________
To: Freed-M@yahoogroups.com; lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com; bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com
From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 12:50:06 -0700
Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

We know the captain and officers of the ship are boobs.

How much longer will we talk about it before we do something? Or will we continue to talk about the boobs until we hit the rocks for real?

There is an entirely different conversation required, if we want to avoid the shipwreck. There is no room in that conversation, for any mention of the boobs or their failures.

The only subject that is relevant to survival is control of the ship. Without that conversation, it is the same as suicide.

To illustrate the concept with another analogy, the continued conversation about the pilot flying into the mountains is suicidal.

The survival conversation is about control of the aircraft:
Where is the cockpit?
Where is the stick?
Where are the engine controls?
Who will take the stick?
Who will help?
Who moves first, second, third?
What actions will be taken?

________________________________
From: "Nina Ortega ortegan@... [Freed-M]" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>
To: "bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com" <bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com>; "lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>; "Freed-M@yahoogroups.com" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 12:21 PM
Subject: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

http://www.blacklistednews.com/The_Most_Destructive_Presidencies_in_American_History%2C_Part_2%3A_The_Fatal_Incoherence_of_the_BushObama_Foreign_Policy/36013/0/0/0/Y/M.html

The Most Destructive Presidencies in American History, Part 2: The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy
June 18, 2014
       
Source: Charles Hugh Smith

The tragic reality is the Bush II/Obama administrations have made the world a far more dangerous place.

A great many rationales have been floated for the most destructive foreign policy in American history, i.e. the fatally incoherent policies of the Bush II/Obama presidencies.

These rationales come in several flavors:

1. The official administration (public relations) rationales

2. The not-so-secret rationales of Empire and realpolitik

3. Conspiracy-type rationales proposed by outsiders

The official rationale has two basic variations:

1. The (now repudiated) Neoconservative agenda of remaking the world in our image (i.e. neoliberal democracy) with military force and nation-building.

2. The longstanding policy of hemming in hostile ideologies and empires with alliances, mutually beneficial trade arrangements and the threat of overwhelming military response to any over-reach by hostile nation-states and/or alliances.

The unspoken goal of maintaining U.S. military, diplomatic, economic and cultural dominance is the not-so-secret rationale of Global Empire. From the point of view ofrealpolitik, the official rationales serve as the PR facades of Empire.

Realpolitik is the unspoken underbelly of both official rationales: the essence ofrealpolitik is the ends justify the means: if we have to kiss up to psychopathic dictators, kleptocrats, brutal juntas, extremist groups, unsavory guns-for-hire and even regimes that are visibly

hostile to American values and dominance to reach operational goals (for
example kill the bad guys), so be it: we will do anything necessary to further our short-term operational goals.

The problem with this kind of short-term thinking in an incoherent strategy is that it only serves expediency: without a coherent strategy based on core values and deeply informed, clearly defined national interests based on those values, expediency inevitably leads to blowback.

In incoherent policies such as those pursued by Bush II/Obama, expedient operations lead to failures that trigger more secrecy and expediency, and there is no end to the failure born of expediency and avoidance of accountability.

Examples of conspiracy-type rationales include One-World agendas fostered by elite groups such as Bilderburg. I find these much less persuasive than good old Empire (i.e. global dominance), because we have

to remember that the leadership has to have a narrative that "sells" the tens
of thousands of people who are the operational core of the Empire an idealistic and idealized rationale for their sacrifice of morals, values and often their lives.

Serving an Elite agenda isn't persuasive, and neither is neocon nation-building. What sells is "fighting the enemy before they bring the battle to our Homeland" and the broad service of American Interests, i.e. #2 above: the fostering of democracy and Neoliberal Capitalism with soft power (alliances, trade, loans, etc.) and striking devastating blows to potential enemies before they can organize a strike against us.

The fundamental incoherence arises from the conflicting narratives and goals of these rationales. Precisely how can we serve American Interests by trashing the values we espouse and supporting the very psychopaths, juntas and extremists who foment the sort of instability that

threaten American Interests?

If the

Master Narrative of U.S. foreign policy is the ends justify the means, then clearly we have chosen our means very poorly.

This raises the larger question of whether a foreign policy that requires actively undermining our values and purported goals of democracy, open markets, stability and prosperity for all can possibly achieve its goal of maintaining Imperial dominance. if the victims of our realpolitik policies and those we have tasked with implementing them both lose faith in the American Project, then it is operationally impossible to win hearts and minds with more drone strikes, more laser-guided bombs and more alliances with the dregs of humanity.

Simplistic ideologies such as Neoconservatism fail in the complex environment of the real world. We might profitably recall that the 1960s equivalent of Neoconservatism was the "domino theory" that held

that all small nation-states in a region were prone
to "falling like dominoes" to Communist insurgencies, regardless of their history, culture, society, economy and form of government.

In other words, the stubborn ignorance of U.S. foreign policy based on ideological simplicities is near-infinite.

The second source of incoherence is the legalistic mindset that everything can be finessed with more words and policy refinements. This legalistic approach--so clearly the dominant mindset of the Obama administration--is one manifestation of American Exceptionalism: that not only can we remake the world in our astonishingly parochial image, but that we can control the world like we control the power structure at home: by finessing problems with legalistic subtleties ("it depends on the definition of is") and threatening overwhelming violence (just lace demonstrators with pepper spray and threaten whistleblowers with life in

prison) to make the problem go away.

That

this legalistic mindset guarantees failure in the real world is lost on those devoted to legalizing all of their extra-legal policies--if not in principle then in name.

Legalizing secrecy, ignorance and killing does not make magically transform these abuses of power into a successful policy. This may well summarize the Bush II/Obama administrations in history.

The vast ignorance at the heart of the Bush II/Obama foreign policy is breath-taking. We can argue about the ignorance of these two destructive presidents, but I see little to contest the ignorance of the policies and the institutions that make the operational decisions.

There are smart, well-informed and globally experienced people in the U.S. government, but they are ignored, dismissed or marginalized precisely because their knowledge threatens the incoherent mess that passes for

foreign policy in these catastrophically inept presidencies.

The

defining characteristic of the Bush II/Obama administrations is the reliance on secrecy--not to protect "national security" but to avoid accountability. If the operation is secret, its failure can be safely buried. This is the reason why everything is classified in the Bush II/Obama administrations: transparency and public knowledge are anathema because they enable scrutiny and analysis and eventually, accountability.

Secrecy is all about avoiding accountability. "National security" is the facade.

Secrecy is the refuge of every dictatorship, totalitarian regime and fascist junta on the planet. We need only look at the savage response of the Obama administration to whistleblowers who have risked their careers and livelihoods, not to mention their freedom, to expose the most egregious violations of the Constitution and American values to see just how dependent the Obama

administration is on secrecy to avoid
accountability.

Bush II was no better: using proxies (private contractors, local militia, etc.) has a long history in the U.S. Imperial Project as a way of avoiding accountability and scrutiny, but the Bush II/Obama foreign policy is totally dependent on proxies of one kind or another (consider the explosive rise in the use of killer drones, Obama's favored proxy).

The real world is not as forgiving as a bought-and-paid-for media; blowback takes many forms. The incoherence of the Bush II/Obama administrations is not only reaping horrendous harvests in the playgrounds of their Imperial ambitions, it is eroding the American public's trust in their government and the institutions that claim to protect them in a dangerous world.

The tragic reality is the Bush II/Obama administrations have made the world a far more dangerous place. That is blowback

writ large.

None of this is new; it's all well-documented in the

public record. The list of books written about the destructive consequences of the Bush II/Obama foreign policies is long; here is a short list of worthy titles to explore:

John, that's a heartfelt email. I hear you. I agree that the general public does not give a s**t as long as the "safety nets" (bread and circus), subsidies (corporate welfare), and endless printing of fiat money to support the house of cards stays in place. I agree that constant whining about abuses solves absolutely nothing. However, I am doubtful that your "solution" to this mess is workable. Human nature prefers concrete paths to ephemeral ideas as basis for action. Oh sure, fun to discuss interesting political approaches, but does that lead to action? I have not seen that it does.

Personally, I am a fan of targeted action at the most basic level. I have posted what those basic levels are -- precinct walking for libertarian candidates, writing ballot arguments and paying for ads against egregious legislation, attending Board of Supervisor meetings and blasting out against their idiotic (from our point of view) proposals, etc. Sounds mediocre, right? It is. I would much prefer conversations about grandiose plans myself -- if I thought they worked.

Anyway, John, thanks for your input, always. I just would love to hear more focused and concrete ideas from you.

Marcy

How can you possibly have action at the basic level? You have never discussed anything with me or determined what resources we can muster. You might as well throw yourself in front of a bus, hoping something will intervene; charge the legion with your pitchfork.

Why anyone would go to a supervisor's meeting is beyond me, when the numbers are hugely adversarial. Face to face in the office, the balance is 1 to 1.

Which Libertarian candidate can win? Others are a waste of time.
Gary Johnson squandered a NM senate seat to run for president, taking the best ideology to a resounding and pathetic defeat.

Is this to demonstrate how stupid we can be? What would you have Gary Johnson, do if your life depended on winning? Run for president??? Hell no!

________________________________
From: "Marcy Berry amarcyb@... [lpsf-discuss]" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
To: "lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:39 PM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

John, that's a heartfelt email. I hear you. I agree that the general public does not give a s**t as long as the "safety nets" (bread and circus), subsidies (corporate welfare), and endless printing of fiat money to support the house of cards stays in place. I agree that constant whining about abuses solves absolutely nothing. However, I am doubtful that your "solution" to this mess is workable. Human nature prefers concrete paths to ephemeral ideas as basis for action. Oh sure, fun to discuss interesting political approaches, but does that lead to action? I have not seen that it does.

Personally, I am a fan of targeted action at the most basic level. I have posted what those basic levels are -- precinct walking for libertarian candidates, writing ballot arguments and paying for ads against egregious legislation, attending Board of Supervisor meetings and blasting out against their idiotic (from our point of view) proposals, etc. Sounds mediocre, right? It is. I would much prefer conversations about grandiose plans myself -- if I thought they worked.

Anyway, John, thanks for your input, always. I just would love to hear more focused and concrete ideas from you.

Marcy

________________________________
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
CC: chdeist@...
From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 16:52:23 -0700
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

I have offered a solution. I have called lots of people to begin a conversation about planning something...anything...building a society that has enough stones to say "NO" and "take away the keys and credit card"...no one calls me back.

I can only assume no one actually gives a s***, beyond complaining, submitting to the unfavorable conditions, and meeting occasionally to share misery.

Of course this is hyperbole, and I know there has been massive psychological damage and emotional conditioning/abuse to prevent anything else but supplication and submission.

But still, it is clear there will be no one else to change things, besides us, but we do not make arrangements with each other, at a pace and level to remodel a birdbath, much less build a robust society.

So far, the next generation is inheriting a poverty of spirit and resolve to match the debt, squandered liberty, and indenture they will get from us.

At least the LGBT has been more forthright in many regards, even re-taking control of flagship events.

It's a damn shame no one else is.

But maybe one day the phone will ring and there will be someone on the other end, taking the future of the next generation as seriously as the future of the next generation.

John
707-623-6005

________________________________
From: "Marcy Berry amarcyb@... [lpsf-discuss]" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
To: "lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 3:23 PM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

Good questions. Too bad you have not offered any answers.

BTW, I liked your message about out of control teens whose parents do not take away the keys and the credit card.

Marcy

________________________________
To: Freed-M@yahoogroups.com; lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com; bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com
From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 12:50:06 -0700
Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

We know the captain and officers of the ship are boobs.

How much longer will we talk about it before we do something? Or will we continue to talk about the boobs until we hit the rocks for real?

There is an entirely different conversation required, if we want to avoid the shipwreck. There is no room in that conversation, for any mention of the boobs or their failures.

The only subject that is relevant to survival is control of the ship. Without that conversation, it is the same as suicide.

To illustrate the concept with another analogy, the continued conversation about the pilot flying into the mountains is suicidal.

The survival conversation is about control of the aircraft:
Where is the cockpit?
Where is the stick?
Where are the engine controls?
Who will take the stick?
Who will help?
Who moves first, second, third?
What actions will be taken?

________________________________
From: "Nina Ortega ortegan@... [Freed-M]" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>
To: "bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com" <bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com>; "lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>; "Freed-M@yahoogroups.com" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 12:21 PM
Subject: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

http://www.blacklistednews.com/The_Most_Destructive_Presidencies_in_American_History%2C_Part_2%3A_The_Fatal_Incoherence_of_the_BushObama_Foreign_Policy/36013/0/0/0/Y/M.html

The Most Destructive Presidencies in American History, Part 2: The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy
June 18, 2014
       
Source: Charles Hugh Smith

The tragic reality is the Bush II/Obama administrations have made the world a far more dangerous place.

A great many rationales have been floated for the most destructive foreign policy in American history, i.e. the fatally incoherent policies of the Bush II/Obama presidencies.

These rationales come in several flavors:

1. The official administration (public relations) rationales

2. The not-so-secret rationales of Empire and realpolitik

3. Conspiracy-type rationales proposed by outsiders

The official rationale has two basic variations:

1. The (now repudiated) Neoconservative agenda of remaking the world in our image (i.e. neoliberal democracy) with military force and nation-building.

2. The longstanding policy of hemming in hostile ideologies and empires with alliances, mutually beneficial trade arrangements and the threat of overwhelming military response to any over-reach by hostile nation-states and/or alliances.

The unspoken goal of maintaining U.S. military, diplomatic, economic and cultural dominance is the not-so-secret rationale of Global Empire. From the point of view ofrealpolitik, the official rationales serve as the PR facades of Empire.

Realpolitik is the unspoken underbelly of both official rationales: the essence ofrealpolitik is the ends justify the means: if we have to kiss up to psychopathic dictators, kleptocrats, brutal juntas, extremist groups, unsavory guns-for-hire and even regimes that are visibly

hostile to American values and dominance to reach operational goals (for
example kill the bad guys), so be it: we will do anything necessary to further our short-term operational goals.

The problem with this kind of short-term thinking in an incoherent strategy is that it only serves expediency: without a coherent strategy based on core values and deeply informed, clearly defined national interests based on those values, expediency inevitably leads to blowback.

In incoherent policies such as those pursued by Bush II/Obama, expedient operations lead to failures that trigger more secrecy and expediency, and there is no end to the failure born of expediency and avoidance of accountability.

Examples of conspiracy-type rationales include One-World agendas fostered by elite groups such as Bilderburg. I find these much less persuasive than good old Empire (i.e. global dominance), because we have

to remember that the leadership has to have a narrative that "sells" the tens
of thousands of people who are the operational core of the Empire an idealistic and idealized rationale for their sacrifice of morals, values and often their lives.

Serving an Elite agenda isn't persuasive, and neither is neocon nation-building. What sells is "fighting the enemy before they bring the battle to our Homeland" and the broad service of American Interests, i.e. #2 above: the fostering of democracy and Neoliberal Capitalism with soft power (alliances, trade, loans, etc.) and striking devastating blows to potential enemies before they can organize a strike against us.

The fundamental incoherence arises from the conflicting narratives and goals of these rationales. Precisely how can we serve American Interests by trashing the values we espouse and supporting the very psychopaths, juntas and extremists who foment the sort of instability that

threaten American Interests?

If the

Master Narrative of U.S. foreign policy is the ends justify the means, then clearly we have chosen our means very poorly.

This raises the larger question of whether a foreign policy that requires actively undermining our values and purported goals of democracy, open markets, stability and prosperity for all can possibly achieve its goal of maintaining Imperial dominance. if the victims of our realpolitik policies and those we have tasked with implementing them both lose faith in the American Project, then it is operationally impossible to win hearts and minds with more drone strikes, more laser-guided bombs and more alliances with the dregs of humanity.

Simplistic ideologies such as Neoconservatism fail in the complex environment of the real world. We might profitably recall that the 1960s equivalent of Neoconservatism was the "domino theory" that held

that all small nation-states in a region were prone
to "falling like dominoes" to Communist insurgencies, regardless of their history, culture, society, economy and form of government.

In other words, the stubborn ignorance of U.S. foreign policy based on ideological simplicities is near-infinite.

The second source of incoherence is the legalistic mindset that everything can be finessed with more words and policy refinements. This legalistic approach--so clearly the dominant mindset of the Obama administration--is one manifestation of American Exceptionalism: that not only can we remake the world in our astonishingly parochial image, but that we can control the world like we control the power structure at home: by finessing problems with legalistic subtleties ("it depends on the definition of is") and threatening overwhelming violence (just lace demonstrators with pepper spray and threaten whistleblowers with life in

prison) to make the problem go away.

That

this legalistic mindset guarantees failure in the real world is lost on those devoted to legalizing all of their extra-legal policies--if not in principle then in name.

Legalizing secrecy, ignorance and killing does not make magically transform these abuses of power into a successful policy. This may well summarize the Bush II/Obama administrations in history.

The vast ignorance at the heart of the Bush II/Obama foreign policy is breath-taking. We can argue about the ignorance of these two destructive presidents, but I see little to contest the ignorance of the policies and the institutions that make the operational decisions.

There are smart, well-informed and globally experienced people in the U.S. government, but they are ignored, dismissed or marginalized precisely because their knowledge threatens the incoherent mess that passes for

foreign policy in these catastrophically inept presidencies.

The

defining characteristic of the Bush II/Obama administrations is the reliance on secrecy--not to protect "national security" but to avoid accountability. If the operation is secret, its failure can be safely buried. This is the reason why everything is classified in the Bush II/Obama administrations: transparency and public knowledge are anathema because they enable scrutiny and analysis and eventually, accountability.

Secrecy is all about avoiding accountability. "National security" is the facade.

Secrecy is the refuge of every dictatorship, totalitarian regime and fascist junta on the planet. We need only look at the savage response of the Obama administration to whistleblowers who have risked their careers and livelihoods, not to mention their freedom, to expose the most egregious violations of the Constitution and American values to see just how dependent the Obama

administration is on secrecy to avoid
accountability.

Bush II was no better: using proxies (private contractors, local militia, etc.) has a long history in the U.S. Imperial Project as a way of avoiding accountability and scrutiny, but the Bush II/Obama foreign policy is totally dependent on proxies of one kind or another (consider the explosive rise in the use of killer drones, Obama's favored proxy).

The real world is not as forgiving as a bought-and-paid-for media; blowback takes many forms. The incoherence of the Bush II/Obama administrations is not only reaping horrendous harvests in the playgrounds of their Imperial ambitions, it is eroding the American public's trust in their government and the institutions that claim to protect them in a dangerous world.

The tragic reality is the Bush II/Obama administrations have made the world a far more dangerous place. That is blowback

writ large.

None of this is new; it's all well-documented in the

public record. The list of books written about the destructive consequences of the Bush II/Obama foreign policies is long; here is a short list of worthy titles to explore:

I could not agree more that we libertarians are outnumbered. But, at least I spelled out my specific plan of action. Yours?

Marcy

You are asking me to spell-out what my plan for you and your resources is; what my plan for everyone else is.

There is no sane way for me to do that. And it would be totally narcissistic for me to engage the circumstances in that way.

What are the combined resources? Who can do what? Who knows who? Where are sensitive positions? How much money is there?

Who would join us if we quit acting like narcissistic fools?

________________________________
From: "Marcy Berry amarcyb@... [lpsf-discuss]" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
To: "lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 8:32 PM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

I could not agree more that we libertarians are outnumbered. But, at least I spelled out my specific plan of action. Yours?

Marcy

________________________________
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 20:23:00 -0700
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

How can you possibly have action at the basic level? You have never discussed anything with me or determined what resources we can muster. You might as well throw yourself in front of a bus, hoping something will intervene; charge the legion with your pitchfork.

Why anyone would go to a supervisor's meeting is beyond me, when the numbers are hugely adversarial. Face to face in the office, the balance is 1 to 1.

Which Libertarian candidate can win? Others are a waste of time.
Gary Johnson squandered a NM senate seat to run for president, taking the best ideology to a resounding and pathetic defeat.

Is this to demonstrate how stupid we can be? What would you have Gary Johnson, do if your life depended on winning? Run for president??? Hell no!

________________________________
From: "Marcy Berry amarcyb@... [lpsf-discuss]" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
To: "lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:39 PM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

John, that's a heartfelt email. I hear you. I agree that the general public does not give a s**t as long as the "safety nets" (bread and circus), subsidies (corporate welfare), and endless printing of fiat money to support the house of cards stays in place. I agree that constant whining about abuses solves absolutely nothing. However, I am doubtful that your "solution" to this mess is workable. Human nature prefers concrete paths to ephemeral ideas as basis for action. Oh sure, fun to discuss interesting political approaches, but does that lead to action? I have not seen that it does.

Personally, I am a fan of targeted action at the most basic level. I have posted what those basic levels are -- precinct walking for libertarian candidates, writing ballot arguments and paying for ads against egregious legislation, attending Board of

Supervisor meetings and blasting out against their idiotic (from our point of view) proposals, etc. Sounds mediocre, right? It is. I would much prefer conversations about grandiose plans myself -- if I thought they worked.

Anyway, John, thanks for your input, always. I just would love to hear more focused and concrete ideas from you.

Marcy

________________________________
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
CC: chdeist@...
From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 16:52:23 -0700
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

I have offered a solution. I have called lots of people to begin a conversation about planning something...anything...building a society that has enough stones to say "NO" and "take away the keys and credit card"...no one calls me back.

I can only assume no one actually gives a s***, beyond complaining, submitting to the unfavorable conditions, and meeting occasionally to share misery.

Of course this is hyperbole, and I know there has been massive psychological damage and emotional conditioning/abuse to prevent anything else but supplication and submission.

But still, it is clear there will be no one else to change things, besides us, but we do not make arrangements with each other, at a pace and level to remodel a birdbath, much less build a robust society.

So far, the next generation is inheriting a poverty of spirit and resolve to match the debt, squandered liberty, and indenture they will get from us.

At least the LGBT has been more forthright in many regards, even re-taking control of flagship events.

It's a damn shame no one else is.

But maybe one day the phone will ring and there will be someone on the other end, taking the future of the next generation as seriously as the future of the next generation.

John
707-623-6005

________________________________
From: "Marcy Berry amarcyb@... [lpsf-discuss]" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
To: "lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 3:23 PM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

Good questions. Too bad you have not offered any answers.

BTW, I liked your message about out of control teens whose parents do not take away the keys and the credit card.

Marcy

________________________________
To: Freed-M@yahoogroups.com; lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com; bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com
From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 12:50:06 -0700
Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

We know the captain and officers of the ship are boobs.

How much longer will we talk about it before we do something? Or will we continue to talk about the boobs until we hit the rocks for real?

There is an entirely different conversation required, if we want to avoid the shipwreck. There is no room in that conversation, for any mention of the boobs or their failures.

The only subject that is relevant to survival is control of the ship. Without that conversation, it is the same as suicide.

To illustrate the concept with another analogy, the continued conversation about the pilot flying into the mountains is suicidal.

The survival conversation is about control of the aircraft:
Where is the cockpit?
Where is the stick?
Where are the engine controls?
Who will take the stick?
Who will help?
Who moves first, second, third?
What actions will be taken?

________________________________
From: "Nina Ortega ortegan@... [Freed-M]" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>
To: "bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com" <bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com>; "lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>; "Freed-M@yahoogroups.com" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 12:21 PM
Subject: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

http://www.blacklistednews.com/The_Most_Destructive_Presidencies_in_American_History%2C_Part_2%3A_The_Fatal_Incoherence_of_the_BushObama_Foreign_Policy/36013/0/0/0/Y/M.html

The Most Destructive Presidencies in American History, Part 2: The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy
June 18, 2014
       
Source: Charles Hugh Smith

The tragic reality is the Bush II/Obama administrations have made the world a far more dangerous place.

A great many rationales have been floated for the most destructive foreign policy in American history, i.e. the fatally incoherent policies of the Bush II/Obama presidencies.

These rationales come in several flavors:

1. The official administration (public relations) rationales

2. The not-so-secret rationales of Empire and realpolitik

3. Conspiracy-type rationales proposed by outsiders

The official rationale has two basic variations:

1. The (now repudiated) Neoconservative agenda of remaking the world in our image (i.e. neoliberal democracy) with military force and nation-building.

2. The longstanding policy of hemming in hostile ideologies and empires with alliances, mutually beneficial trade arrangements and the threat of overwhelming military response to any over-reach by hostile nation-states and/or alliances.

The unspoken goal of maintaining U.S. military, diplomatic, economic and cultural dominance is the not-so-secret rationale of Global Empire. From the point of view ofrealpolitik, the official rationales serve as the PR facades of Empire.

Realpolitik is the unspoken underbelly of both official rationales: the essence ofrealpolitik is the ends justify the means: if we have to kiss up to psychopathic dictators, kleptocrats, brutal juntas, extremist groups, unsavory guns-for-hire and even regimes that are visibly

hostile to American values and dominance to reach operational goals (for
example kill the bad guys), so be it: we will do anything necessary to further our short-term operational goals.

The problem with this kind of short-term thinking in an incoherent strategy is that it only serves expediency: without a coherent strategy based on core values and deeply informed, clearly defined national interests based on those values, expediency inevitably leads to blowback.

In incoherent policies such as those pursued by Bush II/Obama, expedient operations lead to failures that trigger more secrecy and expediency, and there is no end to the failure born of expediency and avoidance of accountability.

Examples of conspiracy-type rationales include One-World agendas fostered by elite groups such as Bilderburg. I find these much less persuasive than good old Empire (i.e. global dominance), because we have

to remember that the leadership has to have a narrative that "sells" the tens
of thousands of people who are the operational core of the Empire an idealistic and idealized rationale for their sacrifice of morals, values and often their lives.

Serving an Elite agenda isn't persuasive, and neither is neocon nation-building. What sells is "fighting the enemy before they bring the battle to our Homeland" and the broad service of American Interests, i.e. #2 above: the fostering of democracy and Neoliberal Capitalism with soft power (alliances, trade, loans, etc.) and striking devastating blows to potential enemies before they can organize a strike against us.

The fundamental incoherence arises from the conflicting narratives and goals of these rationales. Precisely how can we serve American Interests by trashing the values we espouse and supporting the very psychopaths, juntas and extremists who foment the sort of instability that

threaten American Interests?

If the

Master Narrative of U.S. foreign policy is the ends justify the means, then clearly we have chosen our means very poorly.

This raises the larger question of whether a foreign policy that requires actively undermining our values and purported goals of democracy, open markets, stability and prosperity for all can possibly achieve its goal of maintaining Imperial dominance. if the victims of our realpolitik policies and those we have tasked with implementing them both lose faith in the American Project, then it is operationally impossible to win hearts and minds with more drone strikes, more laser-guided bombs and more alliances with the dregs of humanity.

Simplistic ideologies such as Neoconservatism fail in the complex environment of the real world. We might profitably recall that the 1960s equivalent of Neoconservatism was the "domino theory" that held

that all small nation-states in a region were prone
to "falling like dominoes" to Communist insurgencies, regardless of their history, culture, society, economy and form of government.

In other words, the stubborn ignorance of U.S. foreign policy based on ideological simplicities is near-infinite.

The second source of incoherence is the legalistic mindset that everything can be finessed with more words and policy refinements. This legalistic approach--so clearly the dominant mindset of the Obama administration--is one manifestation of American Exceptionalism: that not only can we remake the world in our astonishingly parochial image, but that we can control the world like we control the power structure at home: by finessing problems with legalistic subtleties ("it depends on the definition of is") and threatening overwhelming violence (just lace demonstrators with pepper spray and threaten whistleblowers with life in

prison) to make the problem go away.

That

this legalistic mindset guarantees failure in the real world is lost on those devoted to legalizing all of their extra-legal policies--if not in principle then in name.

Legalizing secrecy, ignorance and killing does not make magically transform these abuses of power into a successful policy. This may well summarize the Bush II/Obama administrations in history.

The vast ignorance at the heart of the Bush II/Obama foreign policy is breath-taking. We can argue about the ignorance of these two destructive presidents, but I see little to contest the ignorance of the policies and the institutions that make the operational decisions.

There are smart, well-informed and globally experienced people in the U.S. government, but they are ignored, dismissed or marginalized precisely because their knowledge threatens the incoherent mess that passes for

foreign policy in these catastrophically inept presidencies.

The

defining characteristic of the Bush II/Obama administrations is the reliance on secrecy--not to protect "national security" but to avoid accountability. If the operation is secret, its failure can be safely buried. This is the reason why everything is classified in the Bush II/Obama administrations: transparency and public knowledge are anathema because they enable scrutiny and analysis and eventually, accountability.

Secrecy is all about avoiding accountability. "National security" is the facade.

Secrecy is the refuge of every dictatorship, totalitarian regime and fascist junta on the planet. We need only look at the savage response of the Obama administration to whistleblowers who have risked their careers and livelihoods, not to mention their freedom, to expose the most egregious violations of the Constitution and American values to see just how dependent the Obama

administration is on secrecy to avoid
accountability.

Bush II was no better: using proxies (private contractors, local militia, etc.) has a long history in the U.S. Imperial Project as a way of avoiding accountability and scrutiny, but the Bush II/Obama foreign policy is totally dependent on proxies of one kind or another (consider the explosive rise in the use of killer drones, Obama's favored proxy).

The real world is not as forgiving as a bought-and-paid-for media; blowback takes many forms. The incoherence of the Bush II/Obama administrations is not only reaping horrendous harvests in the playgrounds of their Imperial ambitions, it is eroding the American public's trust in their government and the institutions that claim to protect them in a dangerous world.

The tragic reality is the Bush II/Obama administrations have made the world a far more dangerous place. That is blowback

writ large.

None of this is new; it's all well-documented in the

public record. The list of books written about the destructive consequences of the Bush II/Obama foreign policies is long; here is a short list of worthy titles to explore:

Yes, I am asking you to spell out the specific plans you have in mind. No, spelling out specific strategy is not narcissistic or foolish. It simply means you have a plan.

Let me give you an example. Lots of posts on this list complain about police misconduct. Just complain, no plan to remedy the situation. Starchild's post alluded to a specific plan: police need to become afraid that if they misbehave they will be sued. That's a plan. Belonging to "Cop Watch" is a plan. Keeping the phone number of Institute for Justice in your pocket is a plan.

http://www.ij.org/ Police misconduct is just one challenge. And for each challenge there is an equally specific plan of action to combat it. As I said innumerable times, lack of remedies is not the problem. Lack of people willing to avail themselves of them is. The specific actions I enumerated in my posts provide the added benefit of acquainting the general public with the fact that the status quo they cling to so desperately gives to them with one hand and takes from them with the other. I am hoping that if enough people understand that, then folks like Ron Paul, or Gary Johnson, or John Dennis will have a better chance to implement their specific strategies. Well, I realize I am wrong asking for specific plans just because I find them essential. I should let everybody do whatever floats their boat. Marcy_____________________________________________________

You are totally missing the point.
I have been advocating and conducting a very specific plan since I first met the LPSF.

The plan is to build networks and communications. I even posted once about creating voice communications networks. But nobody understood what that meant.

Would it make more sense if I said, "I have a $1,000,000 for the LPSF if somebody will give me a call to discuss what we will do with it?"

Does that help to illustrate the point? Without a more in-depth understanding of what my resources and ambitions are, your plans are irrelevant to anyone but yourself. The same is true for mine.

This condition is multiplied times the number of people who have no idea who the others are, what they want, what they can do, etc.

And the notion is insane, that this condition can be remedied by a few people, meeting, for a few hours, once a month. It falls way short of the sustained critical mass needed to be anything robust.

John
707-623-6005

John
707-623-6005

________________________________
From: "Marcy Berry amarcyb@... [lpsf-discuss]" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
To: "lpsf-discuss@...m" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:02 PM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

Yes, I am asking you to spell out the specific plans you have in mind. No, spelling out specific strategy is not narcissistic or foolish. It simply means you have a plan.

Let me give you an example. Lots of posts on this list complain about police misconduct. Just complain, no plan to remedy the situation. Starchild's post alluded to a specific plan: police need to become afraid that if they misbehave they will be sued. That's a plan. Belonging to "Cop Watch" is a plan. Keeping the phone number of Institute for Justice in your pocket is a plan.

http://www.ij.org/

Police misconduct is just one challenge. And for each challenge there is an equally specific plan of action to combat it.

As I said innumerable times, lack of remedies is not the problem. Lack of people willing to avail themselves of them is. The specific actions I enumerated in my posts provide the added benefit of acquainting the general public with the fact that the status quo they cling to so desperately gives to them with one hand and takes from them with the other. I am hoping that if enough people understand that, then folks like Ron Paul, or Gary Johnson, or John Dennis will have a better chance to implement their specific strategies.

Well, I realize I am wrong asking for specific plans just because I find them essential. I should let everybody do whatever floats their boat.

Marcy
_____________________________________________________
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 21:31:33 -0700
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

You are asking me to spell-out what my plan for you and your resources is; what my plan for everyone else is.

There is no sane way for me to do that. And it would be totally narcissistic for me to engage the circumstances in that way.

What are the combined resources? Who can do what? Who knows who? Where are sensitive positions? How much money is there?

Who would join us if we quit acting like narcissistic fools?

________________________________
From: "Marcy Berry amarcyb@... [lpsf-discuss]" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
To: "lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 8:32 PM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

I could not agree more that we libertarians are outnumbered. But, at least I spelled out my specific plan of action. Yours?

Marcy

________________________________
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 20:23:00 -0700
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

How can you possibly have action at the basic level? You have never discussed anything with me or determined what resources we can muster. You might as well throw yourself in front of a bus, hoping something will intervene; charge the legion with your pitchfork.

Why anyone would go to a supervisor's meeting is beyond me, when the numbers are hugely adversarial. Face to face in the office, the balance is 1 to 1.

Which Libertarian candidate can win? Others are a waste of time.
Gary Johnson squandered a NM senate seat to run for president, taking the best ideology to a resounding and pathetic defeat.

Is this to demonstrate how stupid we can be? What would you have Gary Johnson, do if your life depended on winning? Run for president??? Hell no!

________________________________
From: "Marcy Berry amarcyb@hotmail.com [lpsf-discuss]" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
To: "lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:39 PM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

John, that's a heartfelt email. I hear you. I agree that the general public does not give a s**t as long as the "safety nets" (bread and circus), subsidies (corporate welfare), and endless printing of fiat money to support the house of cards stays in place. I agree that constant whining about abuses solves absolutely nothing. However, I am doubtful that your "solution" to this mess is workable. Human nature prefers concrete paths to ephemeral ideas as basis for action. Oh sure, fun to discuss interesting political approaches, but does that lead to action? I have not seen that it does.

Personally, I am a fan of targeted action at the most basic level. I have posted what those basic levels are -- precinct walking for libertarian candidates, writing ballot arguments and paying for ads against egregious legislation, attending Board of

Supervisor meetings and blasting out against their idiotic (from our point of view) proposals, etc. Sounds mediocre, right? It is. I would much prefer conversations about grandiose plans myself -- if I thought they worked.

Anyway, John, thanks for your input, always. I just would love to hear more focused and concrete ideas from you.

Marcy

________________________________
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
CC: chdeist@gmail.com
From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 16:52:23 -0700
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M]

The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

I have offered a solution. I have called lots of people to begin a conversation about planning something...anything...building a society that has enough stones to say "NO" and "take away the keys and credit card"...no one calls me back.

I can only assume no one actually gives a s***, beyond complaining, submitting to the unfavorable conditions, and meeting occasionally to share misery.

Of course this is hyperbole, and I know there has been massive psychological damage and emotional conditioning/abuse to prevent anything else but supplication and submission.

But still, it is clear there will be no one else to change things, besides us, but we do not make arrangements with each other, at a pace and level to remodel a birdbath, much less build a robust society.

So far, the next generation is inheriting a poverty of spirit and resolve to match the debt, squandered liberty, and indenture they will get from us.

At least the LGBT has been more forthright in many regards, even re-taking control of flagship events.

It's a damn shame no one else is.

But maybe one day the phone will ring and there will be someone on the other end, taking the future of the next generation as seriously as the future of the next generation.

John
707-623-6005

________________________________
From: "Marcy Berry amarcyb@... [lpsf-discuss]" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
To: "lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com" <lpsf-discuss@...m>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 3:23 PM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

Good questions. Too bad you have not offered any answers.

BTW, I liked your message about out of control teens whose parents do not take away the keys and the credit card.

Marcy

________________________________
To: Freed-M@yahoogroups.com; lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com; bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com
From: lpsf-discuss@...m
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 12:50:06 -0700
Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

We know the captain and officers of the ship are boobs.

How much longer will we talk about it before we do something? Or will we continue to talk about the boobs until we hit the rocks for real?

There is an entirely different conversation required, if we want to avoid the shipwreck. There is no room in that conversation, for any mention of the boobs or their failures.

The only subject that is relevant to survival is control of the ship. Without that conversation, it is the same as suicide.

To illustrate the concept with another analogy, the continued conversation about the pilot flying into the mountains is suicidal.

The survival conversation is about control of the aircraft:
Where is the cockpit?
Where is the stick?
Where are the engine controls?
Who will take the stick?
Who will help?
Who moves first, second, third?
What actions will be taken?

________________________________
From: "Nina Ortega ortegan@... [Freed-M]" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>
To: "bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com" <bayareapatriots2@yahoogroups.com>; "lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>; "Freed-M@yahoogroups.com" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 12:21 PM
Subject: [Freed-M] The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy

http://www.blacklistednews.com/The_Most_Destructive_Presidencies_in_American_History%2C_Part_2%3A_The_Fatal_Incoherence_of_the_BushObama_Foreign_Policy/36013/0/0/0/Y/M.html

The Most Destructive Presidencies in American History, Part 2: The Fatal Incoherence of the Bush/Obama Foreign Policy
June 18, 2014
       
Source: Charles Hugh Smith

The tragic reality is the Bush II/Obama administrations have made the world a far more dangerous place.

A great many rationales have been floated for the most destructive foreign policy in American history, i.e. the fatally incoherent policies of the Bush II/Obama presidencies.

These rationales come in several flavors:

1. The official administration (public relations) rationales

2. The not-so-secret rationales of Empire and realpolitik

3. Conspiracy-type rationales proposed by outsiders

The official rationale has two basic variations:

1. The (now repudiated) Neoconservative agenda of remaking the world in our image (i.e. neoliberal democracy) with military force and nation-building.

2. The longstanding policy of hemming in hostile ideologies and empires with alliances, mutually beneficial trade arrangements and the threat of overwhelming military response to any over-reach by hostile nation-states and/or alliances.

The unspoken goal of maintaining U.S. military, diplomatic, economic and cultural dominance is the not-so-secret rationale of Global Empire. From the point of view ofrealpolitik, the official rationales serve as the PR facades of Empire.

Realpolitik is the unspoken underbelly of both official rationales: the essence ofrealpolitik is the ends justify the means: if we have to kiss up to psychopathic dictators, kleptocrats, brutal juntas, extremist groups, unsavory guns-for-hire and even regimes that are visibly

hostile to American values and dominance to reach operational goals (for
example kill the bad guys), so be it: we will do anything necessary to further our short-term operational goals.

The problem with this kind of short-term thinking in an incoherent strategy is that it only serves expediency: without a coherent strategy based on core values and deeply informed, clearly defined national interests based on those values, expediency inevitably leads to blowback.

In incoherent policies such as those pursued by Bush II/Obama, expedient operations lead to failures that trigger more secrecy and expediency, and there is no end to the failure born of expediency and avoidance of accountability.

Examples of conspiracy-type rationales include One-World agendas fostered by elite groups such as Bilderburg. I find these much less persuasive than good old Empire (i.e. global dominance), because we have

to remember that the leadership has to have a narrative that "sells" the tens
of thousands of people who are the operational core of the Empire an idealistic and idealized rationale for their sacrifice of morals, values and often their lives.

Serving an Elite agenda isn't persuasive, and neither is neocon nation-building. What sells is "fighting the enemy before they bring the battle to our Homeland" and the broad service of American Interests, i.e. #2 above: the fostering of democracy and Neoliberal Capitalism with soft power (alliances, trade, loans, etc.) and striking devastating blows to potential enemies before they can organize a strike against us.

The fundamental incoherence arises from the conflicting narratives and goals of these rationales. Precisely how can we serve American Interests by trashing the values we espouse and supporting the very psychopaths, juntas and extremists who foment the sort of instability that

threaten American Interests?

If the

Master Narrative of U.S. foreign policy is the ends justify the means, then clearly we have chosen our means very poorly.

This raises the larger question of whether a foreign policy that requires actively undermining our values and purported goals of democracy, open markets, stability and prosperity for all can possibly achieve its goal of maintaining Imperial dominance. if the victims of our realpolitik policies and those we have tasked with implementing them both lose faith in the American Project, then it is operationally impossible to win hearts and minds with more drone strikes, more laser-guided bombs and more alliances with the dregs of humanity.

Simplistic ideologies such as Neoconservatism fail in the complex environment of the real world. We might profitably recall that the 1960s equivalent of Neoconservatism was the "domino theory" that held

that all small nation-states in a region were prone
to "falling like dominoes" to Communist insurgencies, regardless of their history, culture, society, economy and form of government.

In other words, the stubborn ignorance of U.S. foreign policy based on ideological simplicities is near-infinite.

The second source of incoherence is the legalistic mindset that everything can be finessed with more words and policy refinements. This legalistic approach--so clearly the dominant mindset of the Obama administration--is one manifestation of American Exceptionalism: that not only can we remake the world in our astonishingly parochial image, but that we can control the world like we control the power structure at home: by finessing problems with legalistic subtleties ("it depends on the definition of is") and threatening overwhelming violence (just lace demonstrators with pepper spray and threaten whistleblowers with life in

prison) to make the problem go away.

That

this legalistic mindset guarantees failure in the real world is lost on those devoted to legalizing all of their extra-legal policies--if not in principle then in name.

Legalizing secrecy, ignorance and killing does not make magically transform these abuses of power into a successful policy. This may well summarize the Bush II/Obama administrations in history.

The vast ignorance at the heart of the Bush II/Obama foreign policy is breath-taking. We can argue about the ignorance of these two destructive presidents, but I see little to contest the ignorance of the policies and the institutions that make the operational decisions.

There are smart, well-informed and globally experienced people in the U.S. government, but they are ignored, dismissed or marginalized precisely because their knowledge threatens the incoherent mess that passes for

foreign policy in these catastrophically inept presidencies.

The

defining characteristic of the Bush II/Obama administrations is the reliance on secrecy--not to protect "national security" but to avoid accountability. If the operation is secret, its failure can be safely buried. This is the reason why everything is classified in the Bush II/Obama administrations: transparency and public knowledge are anathema because they enable scrutiny and analysis and eventually, accountability.

Secrecy is all about avoiding accountability. "National security" is the facade.

Secrecy is the refuge of every dictatorship, totalitarian regime and fascist junta on the planet. We need only look at the savage response of the Obama administration to whistleblowers who have risked their careers and livelihoods, not to mention their freedom, to expose the most egregious violations of the Constitution and American values to see just how dependent the Obama

administration is on secrecy to avoid
accountability.

Bush II was no better: using proxies (private contractors, local militia, etc.) has a long history in the U.S. Imperial Project as a way of avoiding accountability and scrutiny, but the Bush II/Obama foreign policy is totally dependent on proxies of one kind or another (consider the explosive rise in the use of killer drones, Obama's favored proxy).

The real world is not as forgiving as a bought-and-paid-for media; blowback takes many forms. The incoherence of the Bush II/Obama administrations is not only reaping horrendous harvests in the playgrounds of their Imperial ambitions, it is eroding the American public's trust in their government and the institutions that claim to protect them in a dangerous world.

The tragic reality is the Bush II/Obama administrations have made the world a far more dangerous place. That is blowback

writ large.

None of this is new; it's all well-documented in the

public record. The list of books written about the destructive consequences of the Bush II/Obama foreign policies is long; here is a short list of worthy titles to explore: