Survey on philosophical positions in the libertarian movement

Starchild · May 27, 2023, 12:05am

An interesting “survey” I just came across… I changed the title to focus on the ideas – the original (?) version I saw asked “which side are you on?” and was titled “libertarian infighting” which didn’t seem super helpful, but I like the survey itself. You don’t have to identify as libertarian to fill it out, and some of the positions are arguably not libertarian, but this seems like a fair survey of philosophical issues on which there does tend to be some degree of disagreement among self-identified libertarians:

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

FRNP · May 27, 2023, 2:43am

Surveys are neat & nifty but divisive virtual reality gimmicks — especially when they focus on the most vague & abstract & contrived ideals, Starchild. It would more helpful to drill down to specifics on not just what folks think or feel or what they put in writing in pixels, or say, but whether Libertarians actually “WALK THE TALK” & Stand Up — not only for their Own Liberty but — to advocate on behalf of others’. “Virtual Reality is not Reality.”

We have real [ small ‘L’ ] libertarians who #JoinTheFun for Our local & National & International World Naked Bike Rides who :

Believe in Inalienable #BodyAutonomy & the Right to “Bare Arms” etc.
Do not believe any govt has any authority to mandate or dictate what We wear or don’t wear.
Put Our Bodies on the line & demonstrate in Public Space Our Values, Ideals for All to recognize & understand.
Protest against interweb tyrants who undermine our Inalienable & codified 1st Amendment Freedoms & nannie state elected officials ( aka #TheTemps ) who would — IF they could — do Us harm ( under deadly threat of armed arrest, judicial tarring & feathering, & caging worse than wild animals ) if We dare defy disobey & disregard their dumb laws which We never agreed to specifically.

Come Out & #JoinTheFun #BareAsYouDare on Sunday 11 June 2023 for the “International Classic” & “Woody Miller Memorial Ride” #WNBRsf2023 & as We tell the space cadet who misruns the twitterverse that marginalizing those he doesn’t like or agree with is bigotry & “un-american” ( it’s actually, sadly, very “american” if one checks the record for the #USgovt on genociding 100 Millions Natives, marginalizing Women, enslaving & still caging AAs/Blacks et al over non-aggressive/non-violent behaviors,& systematically overthrowing the entire UnderClass on behalf of elitist billionaires marionettists inc, etc ).

For the past two years, at least, more “libertarians” have attended the @SFWNBR than any & all of the in-person meetings of the @SanFranciscoLP ( perhaps combined ). It’s fertile grounds for recruitment.

11am Gathering
12pm/Noon Start
Rincon “Cupid’s Arrow” Park
The Embarcadero & Folsom Street
San Francisco USA .

Jeff_Chan · May 27, 2023, 8:44am

This survey may be totally innocent, depending on who’s doing it and
for what purpose, but be aware that surveys in general can be used for
psychometric profiling to figure out how to market to you more
effectively, and the result can be sold on indefinitely. It can
become sort of like a personality fingerprint associated with your
identity. That can end up being more data about you for marketers,
governments, spy agencies, credit bureaus, law enforcement, etc.

Some of the puzzles, questionnaires, surveys, tests, contests, etc.,
in online ads are for such purposes also.

Cheers,

Jeff C,

···

On Friday, May 26, 2023, 5:05:14 PM, Starchild Starchild wrote:

    An interesting "survey" I just came across… I changed the
title to focus on the ideas – the original (?) version I saw asked
“which side are you on?” and was titled “libertarian infighting”
which didn’t seem super helpful, but I like the survey itself. You
don’t have to identify as libertarian to fill it out, and some of
the positions are arguably not libertarian, but this seems like a
fair survey of philosophical issues on which there does tend to be
some degree of disagreement among self-identified libertarians:

Starchild · May 27, 2023, 10:45am

That’s a very good point, Jeff. Thank you for bringing it up. I still think the Libertarian Party keeping info about people’s political/philosophical beliefs on file and up to date for paid staffers and people with roles setting party policy is desirable from the standpoint of maintaining the party as a sustainably libertarian organization, as well as modeling the kind of governance we want to see in the world so that the public and voters will have reason to trust us, by being able to see that we’re already practicing what we preach in our own groups. “Be the change you want to see in the world.”

But I should have thought about people posting their answers to these surveys with regard to data harvesting, especially by big institutions trying to track and manipulate, if not outright control people in the case of government. Perhaps I’ll make a new version of the graphic with a warning at the bottom about disclosing your information. That could help raise awareness of the big data/surveillance problem. I’m actually quite aware of the issues that you mention, but somehow overlooked them in this context.

There’s definitely a conundrum though. In a global information society, where we may interact with large numbers of people we don’t know well, especially online where there can be all manner of deceptions, trust mechanisms are needed, and that means having some kind of assurance about the people you’re dealing with, which usually means information about them. But the collection of this information has real risks and dangers. I’d like to see each of us have a lot more control over our information, from our medical records to our shopping habits to our fingerprints, facial images, and genomes, and limits on institutional access to and use of this information on a mass basis.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

···

On May 27, 2023, at 1:44 AM, Jeff Chan webmaster@rkba.org wrote:

On Friday, May 26, 2023, 5:05:14 PM, Starchild Starchild wrote:
   An interesting "survey" I just came across… I changed the
title to focus on the ideas – the original (?) version I saw asked
“which side are you on?” and was titled “libertarian infighting”
which didn’t seem super helpful, but I like the survey itself. You
don’t have to identify as libertarian to fill it out, and some of
the positions are arguably not libertarian, but this seems like a
fair survey of philosophical issues on which there does tend to be
some degree of disagreement among self-identified libertarians:
This survey may be totally innocent, depending on who’s doing it and
for what purpose, but be aware that surveys in general can be used for
psychometric profiling to figure out how to market to you more
effectively, and the result can be sold on indefinitely. It can
become sort of like a personality fingerprint associated with your
identity. That can end up being more data about you for marketers,
governments, spy agencies, credit bureaus, law enforcement, etc.

Some of the puzzles, questionnaires, surveys, tests, contests, etc.,
in online ads are for such purposes also.

Cheers,

Jeff C,

Katie_Hingle · May 27, 2023, 1:44pm

I wish the pro-life vs pro-choice wasn’t about babies. I am pro-life way
beyond babies.

···

On Sat, May 27, 2023 at 3:45 AM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:

That’s a very good point, Jeff. Thank you for bringing it up. I still
think the Libertarian Party keeping info about people’s
political/philosophical beliefs on file and up to date for paid staffers
and people with roles setting party policy is desirable from the
standpoint of maintaining the party as a sustainably libertarian
organization, as well as modeling the kind of governance we want to see in
the world so that the public and voters will have reason to trust us, by
being able to see that we’re already practicing what we preach in our own
groups. “Be the change you want to see in the world.”

But I should have thought about people posting their answers to these
surveys with regard to data harvesting, especially by big institutions
trying to track and manipulate, if not outright control people in the case
of government. Perhaps I’ll make a new version of the graphic with a
warning at the bottom about disclosing your information. That could help
raise awareness of the big data/surveillance problem. I’m actually quite
aware of the issues that you mention, but somehow overlooked them in this
context.

There’s definitely a conundrum though. In a global information society,
where we may interact with large numbers of people we don’t know well,
especially online where there can be all manner of deceptions, trust
mechanisms are needed, and that means having some kind of assurance
about the people you’re dealing with, which usually means information about
them. But the collection of this information has real risks and dangers.
I’d like to see each of us have a lot more control over our information,
from our medical records to our shopping habits to our fingerprints, facial
images, and genomes, and limits on institutional access to and use of this
information on a mass basis.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

On May 27, 2023, at 1:44 AM, Jeff Chan webmaster@rkba.org wrote:

On Friday, May 26, 2023, 5:05:14 PM, Starchild Starchild wrote:
   An interesting "survey" I just came across… I changed the
title to focus on the ideas – the original (?) version I saw asked
“which side are you on?” and was titled “libertarian infighting”
which didn’t seem super helpful, but I like the survey itself. You
don’t have to identify as libertarian to fill it out, and some of
the positions are arguably not libertarian, but this seems like a
fair survey of philosophical issues on which there does tend to be
some degree of disagreement among self-identified libertarians:

This survey may be totally innocent, depending on who’s doing it and
for what purpose, but be aware that surveys in general can be used for
psychometric profiling to figure out how to market to you more
effectively, and the result can be sold on indefinitely. It can
become sort of like a personality fingerprint associated with your
identity. That can end up being more data about you for marketers,
governments, spy agencies, credit bureaus, law enforcement, etc.

Some of the puzzles, questionnaires, surveys, tests, contests, etc.,
in online ads are for such purposes also.

Cheers,

Jeff C,

dennz · May 27, 2023, 2:05pm

Glad to hear it Katie…you are right, “pro-Life” is more than babies. Here’s an interesting article laying out the history of eugenics by the ruling class going back generations. And of course, the euthanasia movement gathering steam around the world especially Canada. See meme below.

Why are they doing it? Eugenics to Pandemics Documentary https://sashalatypova.substack.com/p/why-are-they-doing-it-eugenics-to?u

Note there is also a Pro-Life movement within the LP. I don’t have the link right now but can share with you lagerf.

Please contact me directly to discuss further. I am active in Pro-Life and would like to know you better.

Mike@Dennz.com
415-608-0269

[/uploads/default/original/2X/0/0329ede1281c2985230f922f55ff9875bbd8a90f.jpeg]

···

From: Katie Hingle via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2023 6:47 AM
To: mike@dennz.com mike@dennz.com
Subject: Re: [LPSF Forum] [Discussion] Survey on philosophical positions in the libertarian movement

[https://forum.lpsf.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/a4c791/45.png] Katie_Hinglehttps://forum.lpsf.org/u/katie_hingle
May 27

I wish the pro-life vs pro-choice wasn’t about babies. I am pro-life way
beyond babies.

··· (click for more details)https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/5

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FRNP · May 27, 2023, 3:13pm

Real Freedom Fighters are never in the least bit inhibited about govt tools understanding Our opposition to their tyranny; the whole point of a ProTest/Demonstration ( unlike the nefarious interweb data bank survey schemes ) is that We Are Using Our Individual & Collective Vox & Bodies to Defy their tyranny BOLDLY without Face ( or Body ) MASKS ( unlike doing it in a cowardly way from closets & basements purportedly anonyMOUSEly behind computer screens. ).

robert_goodwyn · May 27, 2023, 8:00pm

Who says that pro-life and pro-choice are opposites?
That’s the old ploy from the anti-choice crowd.

···

On Sat May 27 2023 06:45:09 GMT-0700 (PDT), Katie Hingle katie.hingle2@gmail.com wrote:

I wish the pro-life vs pro-choice wasn’t about babies. I am pro-life way beyond babies.
On Sat, May 27, 2023 at 3:45 AM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:

That’s a very good point, Jeff. Thank you for bringing it up. I still think the Libertarian Party keeping info about people’s political/philosophical beliefs on file and up to date for paid staffers and people with roles setting party policy is desirable from the standpoint of maintaining the party as a sustainably libertarian organization, as well as modeling the kind of governance we want to see in the world so that the public and voters will have reason to trust us, by being able to see that we’re already practicing what we preach in our own groups. “Be the change you want to see in the world.”
But I should have thought about people posting their answers to these surveys with regard to data harvesting, especially by big institutions trying to track and manipulate, if not outright control people in the case of government. Perhaps I’ll make a new version of the graphic with a warning at the bottom about disclosing your information. That could help raise awareness of the big data/surveillance problem. I’m actually quite aware of the issues that you mention, but somehow overlooked them in this context.
There’s definitely a conundrum though. In a global information society, where we may interact with large numbers of people we don’t know well, especially online where there can be all manner of deceptions, trust mechanisms are needed, and that means having some kind of assurance about the people you’re dealing with, which usually means information about them. But the collection of this information has real risks and dangers. I’d like to see each of us have a lot more control over our information, from our medical records to our shopping habits to our fingerprints, facial images, and genomes, and limits on institutional access to and use of this information on a mass basis.

Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))

On May 27, 2023, at 1:44 AM, Jeff Chan webmaster@rkba.org wrote:
On Friday, May 26, 2023, 5:05:14 PM, Starchild Starchild wrote:

    An interesting "survey" I just came across… I changed the

title to focus on the ideas – the original (?) version I saw asked
“which side are you on?” and was titled “libertarian infighting”
which didn’t seem super helpful, but I like the survey itself. You
don’t have to identify as libertarian to fill it out, and some of
the positions are arguably not libertarian, but this seems like a
fair survey of philosophical issues on which there does tend to be
some degree of disagreement among self-identified libertarians:

This survey may be totally innocent, depending on who’s doing it and
for what purpose, but be aware that surveys in general can be used for
psychometric profiling to figure out how to market to you more
effectively, and the result can be sold on indefinitely. It can
become sort of like a personality fingerprint associated with your
identity. That can end up being more data about you for marketers,
governments, spy agencies, credit bureaus, law enforcement, etc.

Some of the puzzles, questionnaires, surveys, tests, contests, etc.,
in online ads are for such purposes also.

Cheers,

Jeff C,

Katie_Hingle · May 27, 2023, 9:12pm

It’s how it’s being displayed on that survey

···

On Sat, May 27, 2023 at 1:02 PM robert goodwyn via LPSF Forum < noreply@forum.lpsf.org> wrote:

robert_goodwyn https://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 27

Who says that pro-life and pro-choice are opposites?
That’s the old ploy from the anti-choice crowd.
··· (click for more details)
https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/8

dennz · May 27, 2023, 9:54pm

Pro-Life believes life is sacred and abortion is murder.
Pro-choice says life is not sacred and can be legally and morally terminated by choice.

That seems different.

Michael Denny

···

From: robert goodwyn via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2023 1:02 PM
To: mike@dennz.com mike@dennz.com
Subject: Re: [LPSF Forum] [Discussion] Survey on philosophical positions in the libertarian movement

[https://forum.lpsf.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/45.png] robert_goodwynhttps://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 27

Who says that pro-life and pro-choice are opposites?
That’s the old ploy from the anti-choice crowd.

··· (click for more details)https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/8

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If you were forwarded this email and want to subscribe, click herehttps://forum.lpsf.org/signup.

robert_goodwyn · May 28, 2023, 2:09am

Not opposites. You can choose to not abort.

···

On Sat May 27 2023 14:56:25 GMT-0700 (PDT), mike@dennz.com via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:

dennz
May 27 |

Pro-Life believes life is sacred and abortion is murder.
Pro-choice says life is not sacred and can be legally and morally terminated by choice.

That seems different.

Michael Denny
··· (click for more details) @media () {#yiv5532619684 html {background:#151515 !important;}#yiv5532619684 h1, #yiv5532619684 h2, #yiv5532619684 h3, #yiv5532619684 h4, #yiv5532619684 h5, #yiv5532619684 h6, #yiv5532619684 p, #yiv5532619684 span, #yiv5532619684 td {color:inherit !important;}#yiv5532619684 .yiv5532619684filtered99999 {border-color:#454545 !important;}#yiv5532619684 .yiv5532619684filtered99999 {border-color:#454545 !important;}#yiv5532619684 {color:#dddddd;}#yiv5532619684 {background:#151515 !important;}#yiv5532619684 {background:#151515 !important;border-bottom:1px solid #454545 !important;}#yiv5532619684 {border-top-color:#151515 !important;}#yiv5532619684 {background:#222222 !important;color:#dddddd !important;}#yiv5532619684 {background:#062e3d !important;color:#dddddd !important;}#yiv5532619684 {background:#323232 !important;border-color:#454545 !important;}}

dennz · May 28, 2023, 2:26am

That position was never in question or controversial.

Mike

···

Get Outlook for Androidhttps://aka.ms/ghei36

From: robert goodwyn via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2023 9:11:36 PM
To: mike@dennz.com mike@dennz.com
Subject: Re: [LPSF Forum] [Discussion] Survey on philosophical positions in the libertarian movement

[https://forum.lpsf.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/45.png] robert_goodwynhttps://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 28

Not opposites. You can choose to not abort.

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robert_goodwyn · May 28, 2023, 4:28am

Interesting: all I’m asking is to accurately define the question, and that’s a problem for you.

···

On Sat May 27 2023 19:28:55 GMT-0700 (PDT), mike@dennz.com via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:

dennz
May 28 |

That position was never in question or controversial.

Mike
··· (click for more details) @media () {#yiv7326909846 html {background:#151515 !important;}#yiv7326909846 h1, #yiv7326909846 h2, #yiv7326909846 h3, #yiv7326909846 h4, #yiv7326909846 h5, #yiv7326909846 h6, #yiv7326909846 p, #yiv7326909846 span, #yiv7326909846 td {color:inherit !important;}#yiv7326909846 .yiv7326909846filtered99999 {border-color:#454545 !important;}#yiv7326909846 .yiv7326909846filtered99999 {border-color:#454545 !important;}#yiv7326909846 {color:#dddddd;}#yiv7326909846 {background:#151515 !important;}#yiv7326909846 {background:#151515 !important;border-bottom:1px solid #454545 !important;}#yiv7326909846 {border-top-color:#151515 !important;}#yiv7326909846 {background:#222222 !important;color:#dddddd !important;}#yiv7326909846 {background:#062e3d !important;color:#dddddd !important;}#yiv7326909846 {background:#323232 !important;border-color:#454545 !important;}}

Starchild · May 28, 2023, 4:29am

To me, the term pro-life applies well to ending the unnecessary mass slaughter of animals kept in horrible factory farming conditions, as well as to seeking to prevent government wars, democides, and genocides.

Although my views on abortion have shifted a couple times, I’m now pretty firmly in the pro-choice camp (sorry Mike). In the case of fetuses (feti?), I don’t think they merit our protection simply as a consequence of being biologically alive. If preserving all independently living human matter were the correct stance, then we would need to embrace in seriousness the view satirically proclaimed by Monty Python, “Every sperm is sacred”:

In the political (as opposed to biological) realm, I see disapproval of abortion as part of a larger pattern of sex-negative bias that also manifests in opposition to a whole range of things including masturbation, pornography, prostitution, homosexuality, promiscuity (allowing as they do the enjoyment of sexuality for pleasure rather than procreation) and yes even nudity.

Speaking of which, thanks Marty for the heads-up on the SF World Nude Bike Ride happening June 11. I’ve put it on my calendar and hope to attend this year. (You don’t have to go nude to attend and support!) I just wish you would promote your cause without so many gratuitous digs at other libertarians.

Euthanasia, also known as death with dignity, seems to me in keeping with a pro-life appreciation of our time on this mortal coil. As a oenophile Mike, you don’t feel compelled to finish drinking every bottle of wine that’s gone bad, right?

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

···

On May 27, 2023, at 7:07 AM, mike@dennz.com via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:

dennz https://forum.lpsf.org/u/dennz
May 27
Glad to hear it Katie…you are right, “pro-Life” is more than babies. Here’s an interesting article laying out the history of eugenics by the ruling class going back generations. And of course, the euthanasia movement gathering steam around the world especially Canada. See meme below.

Why are they doing it? Eugenics to Pandemics Documentary https://sashalatypova.substack.com/p/why-are-they-doing-it-eugenics-to?Why are they doing it? Eugenics to Pandemics Documentary https://sashalatypova.substack.com/p/why-are-they-doing-it-eugenics-to?u
Note there is also a Pro-Life movement within the LP. I don’t have the link right now but can share with you lagerf.

Please contact me directly to discuss further. I am active in Pro-Life and would like to know you better.

Mike@Dennz.com mailto:Mike@Dennz.com
415-608-0269

[/uploads/default/original/2X/0/0329ede1281c2985230f922f55ff9875bbd8a90f.jpeg]

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Visit Topic https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/6 or reply to this email to respond.

In Reply To

Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 27
That’s a very good point, Jeff. Thank you for bringing it up. I still think the Libertarian Party keeping info about people’s political/philosophical beliefs on file and up to date for paid staffers and people with roles setting party policy is desirable from the standpoint of maintaining the party …
Previous Replies

Katie_Hingle https://forum.lpsf.org/u/katie_hingle
May 27
I wish the pro-life vs pro-choice wasn’t about babies. I am pro-life way
beyond babies.

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/5
Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 27
That’s a very good point, Jeff. Thank you for bringing it up. I still think the Libertarian Party keeping info about people’s political/philosophical beliefs on file and up to date for paid staffers and people with roles setting party policy is desirable from the standpoint of maintaining the party as a sustainably libertarian organization, as well as modeling the kind of governance we want to see in the world so that the public and voters will have reason to trust us, by being able to see that we’re already practicing what we preach in our own groups. “Be the change you want to see in the world.”

But I should have thought about people posting their answers to these surveys with regard to data harvesting, especially by big institutions trying to track and manipulate, if not outright control people in the case of government. Perhaps I’ll make a new version of the graphic with a warning at the bottom about disclosing your information. That could help raise awareness of the big data/surveillance problem. I’m actually quite aware of the issues that you mention, but somehow overlooked them in this context.

There’s definitely a conundrum though. In a global information society, where we may interact with large numbers of people we don’t know well, especially online where there can be all manner of deceptions, trust mechanisms are needed, and that means having some kind of assurance about the people you’re dealing with, which usually means information about them. But the collection of this information has real risks and dangers. I’d like to see each of us have a lot more control over our information, from our medical records to our shopping habits to our fingerprints, facial images, and genomes, and limits on institutional access to and use of this information on a mass basis.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/4
Jeff_Chan https://forum.lpsf.org/u/jeff_chan
May 27
This survey may be totally innocent, depending on who’s doing it and
for what purpose, but be aware that surveys in general can be used for
psychometric profiling to figure out how to market to you more
effectively, and the result can be sold on indefinitely. It can
become sort of like a personality fingerprint associated with your
identity. That can end up being more data about you for marketers,
governments, spy agencies, credit bureaus, law enforcement, etc.

Some of the puzzles, questionnaires, surveys, tests, contests, etc.,
in online ads are for such purposes also.

Cheers,

Jeff C,

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/3
FRNP https://forum.lpsf.org/u/frnp
May 27
Surveys are neat & nifty but divisive virtual reality gimmicks — especially when they focus on the most vague & abstract & contrived ideals, Starchild. It would more helpful to drill down to specifics on not just what folks think or feel or what they put in writing in pixels, or say, but whether Libertarians actually “WALK THE TALK”& Stand Up — not only for their Own Liberty but — to advocate on behalf of others’. “Virtual Reality is not Reality.”

We have real [ small ‘L’ ] libertarians who #JoinTheFun for Our local & National & International World Naked Bike Rides who :

Believe in Inalienable #BodyAutonomy & the Right to “Bare Arms” etc.
Do not believe any govt has any authority to mandate or dictate what We wear or don’t wear.
Put Our Bodies on the line & demonstrate in Public Space Our Values, Ideals for All to recognize & understand.
Protest against interweb tyrants who undermine our Inalienable & codified 1st Amendment Freedoms & nannie state elected officials ( aka #TheTemps ) who would — IF they could — do Us harm ( under deadly threat of armed arrest, judicial tarring & feathering, & caging worse than wild animals ) if We dare defy disobey & disregard their dumb laws which We never agreed to specifically.
Come Out & #JoinTheFun #BareAsYouDare on Sunday 11 June 2023 for the “International Classic” & “Woody Miller Memorial Ride” #WNBRsf2023 & as We tell the space cadet who misruns the twitterverse that marginalizing those he doesn’t like or agree with is bigotry & “un-american” ( it’s actually, sadly, very “american” if one checks the record for the #USgovt on genociding 100 Millions Natives, marginalizing Women, enslaving & still caging AAs/Blacks et al over non-aggressive/non-violent behaviors,& systematically overthrowing the entire UnderClass on behalf of elitist billionaires marionettists inc, etc ).

For the past two years, at least, more “libertarians” have attended the @SFWNBR https://twitter.com/sfwnbr than any & all of the in-person meetings of the @SanFranciscoLP ( perhaps combined ). It’s fertile grounds for recruitment.

11am Gathering
12pm/Noon Start
Rincon “Cupid’s Arrow” Park
The Embarcadero & Folsom Street
San Francisco USA .

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Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 27
An interesting “survey” I just came across… I changed the title to focus on the ideas – the original (?) version I saw asked “which side are you on?” and was titled “libertarian infighting” which didn’t seem super helpful, but I like the survey itself. You don’t have to identify as libertarian to fill it out, and some of the positions are arguably not libertarian, but this seems like a fair survey of philosophical issues on which there does tend to be some degree of disagreement among self-identified libertarians:

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

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Starchild · May 28, 2023, 4:44am

By the way, thanks for weighing in Katie. I don’t recall seeing you here before – are you new to the LPSF or other libertarian lists? Do you live in San Francisco? I’m curious to hear your background in the movement or how you heard about us or came to libertarian ideas, if you don’t mind sharing. And please consider yourself invited to attend (in person or remotely) our next meeting if you can make it. Please feel free to call me directly if you have questions or concerns, or just to say hi!

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))
Chair, Libertarian Party of San Francisco
(415) 573-7997

···

On May 27, 2023, at 2:14 PM, Katie Hingle via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:

Katie_Hingle https://forum.lpsf.org/u/katie_hingle
May 27
It’s how it’s being displayed on that survey

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In Reply To

Katie_Hingle https://forum.lpsf.org/u/katie_hingle
May 27
I wish the pro-life vs pro-choice wasn’t about babies. I am pro-life way beyond babies. ··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/5
Previous Replies

robert_goodwyn https://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 27
Who says that pro-life and pro-choice are opposites?
That’s the old ploy from the anti-choice crowd.

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/8
FRNP https://forum.lpsf.org/u/frnp
May 27
Real Freedom Fighters are never in the least bit inhibited about govt tools understanding Our opposition to their tyranny; the whole point of a ProTest/Demonstration ( unlike the nefarious interweb data bank survey schemes ) is that We Are Using Our Individual & Collective Vox & Bodies to Defy their tyranny BOLDLY without Face ( or Body ) MASKS ( unlike doing it in a cowardly way from closets & basements purportedly anonyMOUSEly behind computer screens. ).

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dennz https://forum.lpsf.org/u/dennz
May 27
Glad to hear it Katie…you are right, “pro-Life” is more than babies. Here’s an interesting article laying out the history of eugenics by the ruling class going back generations. And of course, the euthanasia movement gathering steam around the world especially Canada. See meme below.

Why are they doing it? Eugenics to Pandemics Documentary https://sashalatypova.substack.com/p/why-are-they-doing-it-eugenics-to?Why are they doing it? Eugenics to Pandemics Documentary https://sashalatypova.substack.com/p/why-are-they-doing-it-eugenics-to?u
Note there is also a Pro-Life movement within the LP. I don’t have the link right now but can share with you lagerf.

Please contact me directly to discuss further. I am active in Pro-Life and would like to know you better.

Mike@Dennz.com mailto:Mike@Dennz.com
415-608-0269

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Katie_Hingle https://forum.lpsf.org/u/katie_hingle
May 27
I wish the pro-life vs pro-choice wasn’t about babies. I am pro-life way
beyond babies.

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/5
Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 27
That’s a very good point, Jeff. Thank you for bringing it up. I still think the Libertarian Party keeping info about people’s political/philosophical beliefs on file and up to date for paid staffers and people with roles setting party policy is desirable from the standpoint of maintaining the party as a sustainably libertarian organization, as well as modeling the kind of governance we want to see in the world so that the public and voters will have reason to trust us, by being able to see that we’re already practicing what we preach in our own groups. “Be the change you want to see in the world.”

But I should have thought about people posting their answers to these surveys with regard to data harvesting, especially by big institutions trying to track and manipulate, if not outright control people in the case of government. Perhaps I’ll make a new version of the graphic with a warning at the bottom about disclosing your information. That could help raise awareness of the big data/surveillance problem. I’m actually quite aware of the issues that you mention, but somehow overlooked them in this context.

There’s definitely a conundrum though. In a global information society, where we may interact with large numbers of people we don’t know well, especially online where there can be all manner of deceptions, trust mechanisms are needed, and that means having some kind of assurance about the people you’re dealing with, which usually means information about them. But the collection of this information has real risks and dangers. I’d like to see each of us have a lot more control over our information, from our medical records to our shopping habits to our fingerprints, facial images, and genomes, and limits on institutional access to and use of this information on a mass basis.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

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Starchild · May 28, 2023, 4:49am

P.S. – I do think the history of eugenics that Mike raises is good to know about – one of a number of dark sides to the historical progressive movement that shares a commonality with the ideology of modern progressives in terms of its willingness to override individual freedom and choice in the name of the “common good”.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

···

On May 27, 2023, at 9:31 PM, Starchild via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:

Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 28
To me, the term pro-life applies well to ending the unnecessary mass slaughter of animals kept in horrible factory farming conditions, as well as to seeking to prevent government wars, democides, and genocides.

Although my views on abortion have shifted a couple times, I’m now pretty firmly in the pro-choice camp (sorry Mike). In the case of fetuses (feti?), I don’t think they merit our protection simply as a consequence of being biologically alive. If preserving all independently living human matter were the correct stance, then we would need to embrace in seriousness the view satirically proclaimed by Monty Python, “Every sperm is sacred”:

Every Sperm is Sacred - Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk
In the political (as opposed to biological) realm, I see disapproval of abortion as part of a larger pattern of sex-negative bias that also manifests in opposition to a whole range of things including masturbation, pornography, prostitution, homosexuality, promiscuity (allowing as they do the enjoyment of sexuality for pleasure rather than procreation) and yes even nudity.

Speaking of which, thanks Marty for the heads-up on the SF World Nude Bike Ride happening June 11. I’ve put it on my calendar and hope to attend this year. (You don’t have to go nude to attend and support!) I just wish you would promote your cause without so many gratuitous digs at other libertarians.

Euthanasia, also known as death with dignity, seems to me in keeping with a pro-life appreciation of our time on this mortal coil. As a oenophile Mike, you don’t feel compelled to finish drinking every bottle of wine that’s gone bad, right?

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

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In Reply To

Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 27
That’s a very good point, Jeff. Thank you for bringing it up. I still think the Libertarian Party keeping info about people’s political/philosophical beliefs on file and up to date for paid staffers and people with roles setting party policy is desirable from the standpoint of maintaining the party …
Previous Replies

robert_goodwyn https://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 28
Interesting: all I’m asking is to accurately define the question, and that’s a problem for you.

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/13
dennz https://forum.lpsf.org/u/dennz
May 28
That position was never in question or controversial.

Mike

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/12
robert_goodwyn https://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 28
Not opposites. You can choose to not abort.

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/11
dennz https://forum.lpsf.org/u/dennz
May 27
Pro-Life believes life is sacred and abortion is murder.
Pro-choice says life is not sacred and can be legally and morally terminated by choice.

That seems different.

Michael Denny

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/10
Katie_Hingle https://forum.lpsf.org/u/katie_hingle
May 27
It’s how it’s being displayed on that survey

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dennz · May 28, 2023, 4:51am

Human life is especially sacred. It is a gift from God we should respect and be grateful from the moment of conception until natural death. To see it in any other way is to treat the sacred as profane. And that is a shame for those who miss the incredible wonder and joy in the miracle of human life.

Mike

···

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From: Starchild via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2023 11:31:35 PM
To: mike@dennz.com mike@dennz.com
Subject: Re: [LPSF Forum] [Discussion] Survey on philosophical positions in the libertarian movement

[https://forum.lpsf.org/user_avatar/forum.lpsf.org/starchild/45/533_2.png] Starchildhttps://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 28

To me, the term pro-life applies well to ending the unnecessary mass slaughter of animals kept in horrible factory farming conditions, as well as to seeking to prevent government wars, democides, and genocides.

Although my views on abortion have shifted a couple times, I’m now pretty firmly in the pro-choice camp (sorry Mike). In the case of fetuses (feti?), I don’t think they merit our protection simply as a consequence of being biologically alive. If preserving all independently living human matter were the correct stance, then we would need to embrace in seriousness the view satirically proclaimed by Monty Python, “Every sperm is sacred”:

Every Sperm is Sacred - Monty Python’s The Meaning of Lifehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk

In the political (as opposed to biological) realm, I see disapproval of abortion as part of a larger pattern of sex-negative bias that also manifests in opposition to a whole range of things including masturbation, pornography, prostitution, homosexuality, promiscuity (allowing as they do the enjoyment of sexuality for pleasure rather than procreation) and yes even nudity.

Speaking of which, thanks Marty for the heads-up on the SF World Nude Bike Ride happening June 11. I’ve put it on my calendar and hope to attend this year. (You don’t have to go nude to attend and support!) I just wish you would promote your cause without so many gratuitous digs at other libertarians.

Euthanasia, also known as death with dignity, seems to me in keeping with a pro-life appreciation of our time on this mortal coil. As a oenophile Mike, you don’t feel compelled to finish drinking every bottle of wine that’s gone bad, right?

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

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robert_goodwyn · May 28, 2023, 7:30pm

Look upon me, St. Mike, I don’t have a right to life.

I have a right to be free from aggression and fraud. That covers all the living to which I’m entitled.

Sorry, but I’m pretty sure that you are lying whey you boast about seeing all human life as sacred. We look at the policies you would be supporting if you really believed that. You would not only promote every coercive law to maximize the quantity of human lives, but you would also voluntarily give away all your own wealth to that end.

No Mike, I think you are a fake. You are fine with all kinds of killing and death. You just sought out the expedient exception.

Here is the basic morality of the abortion issue: being conceived and carried are gifts to which you are not entitled. If you die from being deprived of them, it is sad, but it is not murder.

They are gifts, and there is absolutely nothing generous about you forcing someone else to give those gifts. It only makes you a thief.

I would be happy enough with you if you would strip away the sophistry and be honest about your position. Tell the truth, St. Mike.

The truth is that you seek to coerce women to carry pregnancies to term. That’s your position. Say it.

Bob

···

On Sat May 27 2023 21:53:37 GMT-0700 (PDT), mike@dennz.com via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:

dennz
May 28 |

Human life is especially sacred. It is a gift from God we should respect and be grateful from the moment of conception until natural death. To see it in any other way is to treat the sacred as profane. And that is a shame for those who miss the incredible wonder and joy in the miracle of human life.

Mike
··· (click for more details) @media () {#yiv6283819653 html {background:#151515 !important;}#yiv6283819653 h1, #yiv6283819653 h2, #yiv6283819653 h3, #yiv6283819653 h4, #yiv6283819653 h5, #yiv6283819653 h6, #yiv6283819653 p, #yiv6283819653 span, #yiv6283819653 td {color:inherit !important;}#yiv6283819653 .yiv6283819653filtered99999 {border-color:#454545 !important;}#yiv6283819653 .yiv6283819653filtered99999 {border-color:#454545 !important;}#yiv6283819653 {color:#dddddd;}#yiv6283819653 {background:#151515 !important;}#yiv6283819653 {background:#151515 !important;border-bottom:1px solid #454545 !important;}#yiv6283819653 {border-top-color:#151515 !important;}#yiv6283819653 {background:#222222 !important;color:#dddddd !important;}#yiv6283819653 {background:#062e3d !important;color:#dddddd !important;}#yiv6283819653 {background:#323232 !important;border-color:#454545 !important;}}

Starchild · May 28, 2023, 9:57pm

Robert,

Let’s try to avoid personal attacks please, and keep discussion here civil. Mike Denny is a longtime activist and committed to the freedom cause, and I’ve never known him to promote coercive laws. We may not all see eye-to-eye on everything, but a little goodwill and respect goes a long way toward minimizing counter-productive infighting.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

···

On May 28, 2023, at 12:35 PM, robert goodwyn via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:

robert_goodwyn https://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 28
Look upon me, St. Mike, I don’t have a right to life.

I have a right to be free from aggression and fraud. That covers all the living to which I’m entitled.

Sorry, but I’m pretty sure that you are lying whey you boast about seeing all human life as sacred. We look at the policies you would be supporting if you really believed that. You would not only promote every coercive law to maximize the quantity of human lives, but you would also voluntarily give away all your own wealth to that end.

No Mike, I think you are a fake. You are fine with all kinds of killing and death. You just sought out the expedient exception.

Here is the basic morality of the abortion issue: being conceived and carried are gifts to which you are not entitled. If you die from being deprived of them, it is sad, but it is not murder.

They are gifts, and there is absolutely nothing generous about you forcing someone else to give those gifts. It only makes you a thief.

I would be happy enough with you if you would strip away the sophistry and be honest about your position. Tell the truth, St. Mike.

The truth is that you seek to coerce women to carry pregnancies to term. That’s your position. Say it.

Bob

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/18
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In Reply To

Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 27
That’s a very good point, Jeff. Thank you for bringing it up. I still think the Libertarian Party keeping info about people’s political/philosophical beliefs on file and up to date for paid staffers and people with roles setting party policy is desirable from the standpoint of maintaining the party …
Previous Replies

dennz https://forum.lpsf.org/u/dennz
May 28
Human life is especially sacred. It is a gift from God we should respect and be grateful from the moment of conception until natural death. To see it in any other way is to treat the sacred as profane. And that is a shame for those who miss the incredible wonder and joy in the miracle of human life.

Mike

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/17
Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 28
P.S. – I do think the history of eugenics that Mike raises is good to know about – one of a number of dark sides to the historical progressive movement that shares a commonality with the ideology of modern progressives in terms of its willingness to override individual freedom and choice in the name of the “common good”.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/16
Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 28
By the way, thanks for weighing in Katie. I don’t recall seeing you here before – are you new to the LPSF or other libertarian lists? Do you live in San Francisco? I’m curious to hear your background in the movement or how you heard about us or came to libertarian ideas, if you don’t mind sharing. And please consider yourself invited to attend (in person or remotely) our next meeting if you can make it. Please feel free to call me directly if you have questions or concerns, or just to say hi!

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))
Chair, Libertarian Party of San Francisco
(415) 573-7997

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/15
Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 28
To me, the term pro-life applies well to ending the unnecessary mass slaughter of animals kept in horrible factory farming conditions, as well as to seeking to prevent government wars, democides, and genocides.

Although my views on abortion have shifted a couple times, I’m now pretty firmly in the pro-choice camp (sorry Mike). In the case of fetuses (feti?), I don’t think they merit our protection simply as a consequence of being biologically alive. If preserving all independently living human matter were the correct stance, then we would need to embrace in seriousness the view satirically proclaimed by Monty Python, “Every sperm is sacred”:

Every Sperm is Sacred - Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk
In the political (as opposed to biological) realm, I see disapproval of abortion as part of a larger pattern of sex-negative bias that also manifests in opposition to a whole range of things including masturbation, pornography, prostitution, homosexuality, promiscuity (allowing as they do the enjoyment of sexuality for pleasure rather than procreation) and yes even nudity.

Speaking of which, thanks Marty for the heads-up on the SF World Nude Bike Ride happening June 11. I’ve put it on my calendar and hope to attend this year. (You don’t have to go nude to attend and support!) I just wish you would promote your cause without so many gratuitous digs at other libertarians.

Euthanasia, also known as death with dignity, seems to me in keeping with a pro-life appreciation of our time on this mortal coil. As a oenophile Mike, you don’t feel compelled to finish drinking every bottle of wine that’s gone bad, right?

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/14
robert_goodwyn https://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 28
Interesting: all I’m asking is to accurately define the question, and that’s a problem for you.

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/13
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dennz · May 28, 2023, 10:07pm

Robert…from the sound of your post, I was Libertarian since before you were born. You know nothing about me or my position on Pro-Life or Libertarian issues. Maybe that might change if we have a drink together.

It will probably take more than that to deal with what appears to be your extreme native arrogance…specially in a friendly forum as this. But we can try.

Michael Denny

···

From: robert goodwyn via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2023 12:35 PM
To: mike@dennz.com mike@dennz.com
Subject: Re: [LPSF Forum] [Discussion] Survey on philosophical positions in the libertarian movement

[https://forum.lpsf.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/45.png] robert_goodwynhttps://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 28

Look upon me, St. Mike, I don’t have a right to life.

I have a right to be free from aggression and fraud. That covers all the living to which I’m entitled.

Sorry, but I’m pretty sure that you are lying whey you boast about seeing all human life as sacred. We look at the policies you would be supporting if you really believed that. You would not only promote every coercive law to maximize the quantity of human lives, but you would also voluntarily give away all your own wealth to that end.

No Mike, I think you are a fake. You are fine with all kinds of killing and death. You just sought out the expedient exception.

Here is the basic morality of the abortion issue: being conceived and carried are gifts to which you are not entitled. If you die from being deprived of them, it is sad, but it is not murder.

They are gifts, and there is absolutely nothing generous about you forcing someone else to give those gifts. It only makes you a thief.

I would be happy enough with you if you would strip away the sophistry and be honest about your position. Tell the truth, St. Mike.

The truth is that you seek to coerce women to carry pregnancies to term. That’s your position. Say it.

Bob

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