Survey on philosophical positions in the libertarian movement

[dennz]

Glad to hear it Katie…you are right, “pro-Life” is more than babies. Here’s an interesting article laying out the history of eugenics by the ruling class going back generations. And of course, the euthanasia movement gathering steam around the world especially Canada. See meme below.

Why are they doing it? Eugenics to Pandemics Documentaryhttps://sashalatypova.substack.com/p/why-are-they-doing-it-eugenics-to?u

Note there is also a Pro-Life movement within the LP. I don’t have the link right now but can share with you lagerf.

Please contact me directly to discuss further. I am active in Pro-Life and would like to know you better.

Mike@Dennz.com
415-608-0269

[/uploads/default/original/2X/0/0329ede1281c2985230f922f55ff9875bbd8a90f.jpeg]

···

---

From: Katie Hingle via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2023 6:47 AM
To: mike@dennz.com mike@dennz.com
Subject: Re: [LPSF Forum] [Discussion] Survey on philosophical positions in the libertarian movement

[https://forum.lpsf.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/a4c791/45.png] Katie_Hinglehttps://forum.lpsf.org/u/katie_hingle
May 27

I wish the pro-life vs pro-choice wasn’t about babies. I am pro-life way
beyond babies.

··· (click for more details)https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/5

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[FRNP]

Real Freedom Fighters are never in the least bit inhibited about govt tools understanding Our opposition to their tyranny; the whole point of a ProTest/Demonstration ( unlike the nefarious interweb data bank survey schemes ) is that We Are Using Our Individual & Collective Vox & Bodies to Defy their tyranny BOLDLY without Face ( or Body ) MASKS ( unlike doing it in a cowardly way from closets & basements purportedly anonyMOUSEly behind computer screens. ).

[robert_goodwyn]

Who says that pro-life and pro-choice are opposites?
That’s the old ploy from the anti-choice crowd.

···

On Sat May 27 2023 06:45:09 GMT-0700 (PDT), Katie Hingle katie.hingle2@gmail.com wrote:

I wish the pro-life vs pro-choice wasn’t about babies. I am pro-life way beyond babies.
On Sat, May 27, 2023 at 3:45 AM Starchild sfdreamer@earthlink.net wrote:

That’s a very good point, Jeff. Thank you for bringing it up. I still think the Libertarian Party keeping info about people’s political/philosophical beliefs on file and up to date for paid staffers and people with roles setting party policy is desirable from the standpoint of maintaining the party as a sustainably libertarian organization, as well as modeling the kind of governance we want to see in the world so that the public and voters will have reason to trust us, by being able to see that we’re already practicing what we preach in our own groups. “Be the change you want to see in the world.”
But I should have thought about people posting their answers to these surveys with regard to data harvesting, especially by big institutions trying to track and manipulate, if not outright control people in the case of government. Perhaps I’ll make a new version of the graphic with a warning at the bottom about disclosing your information. That could help raise awareness of the big data/surveillance problem. I’m actually quite aware of the issues that you mention, but somehow overlooked them in this context.
There’s definitely a conundrum though. In a global information society, where we may interact with large numbers of people we don’t know well, especially online where there can be all manner of deceptions, trust mechanisms are needed, and that means having some kind of assurance about the people you’re dealing with, which usually means information about them. But the collection of this information has real risks and dangers. I’d like to see each of us have a lot more control over our information, from our medical records to our shopping habits to our fingerprints, facial images, and genomes, and limits on institutional access to and use of this information on a mass basis.

Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))

On May 27, 2023, at 1:44 AM, Jeff Chan webmaster@rkba.org wrote:
On Friday, May 26, 2023, 5:05:14 PM, Starchild Starchild wrote:

    An interesting "survey" I just came across… I changed the

title to focus on the ideas – the original (?) version I saw asked
“which side are you on?” and was titled “libertarian infighting”
which didn’t seem super helpful, but I like the survey itself. You
don’t have to identify as libertarian to fill it out, and some of
the positions are arguably not libertarian, but this seems like a
fair survey of philosophical issues on which there does tend to be
some degree of disagreement among self-identified libertarians:

This survey may be totally innocent, depending on who’s doing it and
for what purpose, but be aware that surveys in general can be used for
psychometric profiling to figure out how to market to you more
effectively, and the result can be sold on indefinitely. It can
become sort of like a personality fingerprint associated with your
identity. That can end up being more data about you for marketers,
governments, spy agencies, credit bureaus, law enforcement, etc.

Some of the puzzles, questionnaires, surveys, tests, contests, etc.,
in online ads are for such purposes also.

Cheers,

Jeff C,

[Katie_Hingle]

It’s how it’s being displayed on that survey

···

On Sat, May 27, 2023 at 1:02 PM robert goodwyn via LPSF Forum < noreply@forum.lpsf.org> wrote:

robert_goodwyn https://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 27

Who says that pro-life and pro-choice are opposites?
That’s the old ploy from the anti-choice crowd.
··· (click for more details)
https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/8

[dennz]

Pro-Life believes life is sacred and abortion is murder.
Pro-choice says life is not sacred and can be legally and morally terminated by choice.

That seems different.

Michael Denny

···

---

From: robert goodwyn via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2023 1:02 PM
To: mike@dennz.com mike@dennz.com
Subject: Re: [LPSF Forum] [Discussion] Survey on philosophical positions in the libertarian movement

[https://forum.lpsf.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/45.png] robert_goodwynhttps://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 27

Who says that pro-life and pro-choice are opposites?
That’s the old ploy from the anti-choice crowd.

··· (click for more details)https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/8

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[robert_goodwyn]

Not opposites. You can choose to not abort.

···

On Sat May 27 2023 14:56:25 GMT-0700 (PDT), mike@dennz.com via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:

dennz
May 27 |

Pro-Life believes life is sacred and abortion is murder.
Pro-choice says life is not sacred and can be legally and morally terminated by choice.

That seems different.

Michael Denny
··· (click for more details) @media () {#yiv5532619684 html {background:#151515 !important;}#yiv5532619684 h1, #yiv5532619684 h2, #yiv5532619684 h3, #yiv5532619684 h4, #yiv5532619684 h5, #yiv5532619684 h6, #yiv5532619684 p, #yiv5532619684 span, #yiv5532619684 td {color:inherit !important;}#yiv5532619684 .yiv5532619684filtered99999 {border-color:#454545 !important;}#yiv5532619684 .yiv5532619684filtered99999 {border-color:#454545 !important;}#yiv5532619684 {color:#dddddd;}#yiv5532619684 {background:#151515 !important;}#yiv5532619684 {background:#151515 !important;border-bottom:1px solid #454545 !important;}#yiv5532619684 {border-top-color:#151515 !important;}#yiv5532619684 {background:#222222 !important;color:#dddddd !important;}#yiv5532619684 {background:#062e3d !important;color:#dddddd !important;}#yiv5532619684 {background:#323232 !important;border-color:#454545 !important;}}

[dennz]

That position was never in question or controversial.

Mike

···

Get Outlook for Androidhttps://aka.ms/ghei36

---

From: robert goodwyn via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2023 9:11:36 PM
To: mike@dennz.com mike@dennz.com
Subject: Re: [LPSF Forum] [Discussion] Survey on philosophical positions in the libertarian movement

[https://forum.lpsf.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/45.png] robert_goodwynhttps://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 28

Not opposites. You can choose to not abort.

··· (click for more details)https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/11

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[robert_goodwyn]

Interesting: all I’m asking is to accurately define the question, and that’s a problem for you.

···

On Sat May 27 2023 19:28:55 GMT-0700 (PDT), mike@dennz.com via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:

dennz
May 28 |

That position was never in question or controversial.

Mike
··· (click for more details) @media () {#yiv7326909846 html {background:#151515 !important;}#yiv7326909846 h1, #yiv7326909846 h2, #yiv7326909846 h3, #yiv7326909846 h4, #yiv7326909846 h5, #yiv7326909846 h6, #yiv7326909846 p, #yiv7326909846 span, #yiv7326909846 td {color:inherit !important;}#yiv7326909846 .yiv7326909846filtered99999 {border-color:#454545 !important;}#yiv7326909846 .yiv7326909846filtered99999 {border-color:#454545 !important;}#yiv7326909846 {color:#dddddd;}#yiv7326909846 {background:#151515 !important;}#yiv7326909846 {background:#151515 !important;border-bottom:1px solid #454545 !important;}#yiv7326909846 {border-top-color:#151515 !important;}#yiv7326909846 {background:#222222 !important;color:#dddddd !important;}#yiv7326909846 {background:#062e3d !important;color:#dddddd !important;}#yiv7326909846 {background:#323232 !important;border-color:#454545 !important;}}

[Starchild]

To me, the term pro-life applies well to ending the unnecessary mass slaughter of animals kept in horrible factory farming conditions, as well as to seeking to prevent government wars, democides, and genocides.

Although my views on abortion have shifted a couple times, I’m now pretty firmly in the pro-choice camp (sorry Mike). In the case of fetuses (feti?), I don’t think they merit our protection simply as a consequence of being biologically alive. If preserving all independently living human matter were the correct stance, then we would need to embrace in seriousness the view satirically proclaimed by Monty Python, “Every sperm is sacred”:

Every Sperm is Sacred - Monty Python's The Meaning of Life

In the political (as opposed to biological) realm, I see disapproval of abortion as part of a larger pattern of sex-negative bias that also manifests in opposition to a whole range of things including masturbation, pornography, prostitution, homosexuality, promiscuity (allowing as they do the enjoyment of sexuality for pleasure rather than procreation) and yes even nudity.

Speaking of which, thanks Marty for the heads-up on the SF World Nude Bike Ride happening June 11. I’ve put it on my calendar and hope to attend this year. (You don’t have to go nude to attend and support!) I just wish you would promote your cause without so many gratuitous digs at other libertarians.

Euthanasia, also known as death with dignity, seems to me in keeping with a pro-life appreciation of our time on this mortal coil. As a oenophile Mike, you don’t feel compelled to finish drinking every bottle of wine that’s gone bad, right?

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

···

On May 27, 2023, at 7:07 AM, mike@dennz.com via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:

dennz https://forum.lpsf.org/u/dennz
May 27
Glad to hear it Katie…you are right, “pro-Life” is more than babies. Here’s an interesting article laying out the history of eugenics by the ruling class going back generations. And of course, the euthanasia movement gathering steam around the world especially Canada. See meme below.

Why are they doing it? Eugenics to Pandemics Documentary https://sashalatypova.substack.com/p/why-are-they-doing-it-eugenics-to?Why are they doing it? Eugenics to Pandemics Documentary https://sashalatypova.substack.com/p/why-are-they-doing-it-eugenics-to?u
Note there is also a Pro-Life movement within the LP. I don’t have the link right now but can share with you lagerf.

Please contact me directly to discuss further. I am active in Pro-Life and would like to know you better.

Mike@Dennz.com mailto:Mike@Dennz.com
415-608-0269

[/uploads/default/original/2X/0/0329ede1281c2985230f922f55ff9875bbd8a90f.jpeg]

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In Reply To

Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 27
That’s a very good point, Jeff. Thank you for bringing it up. I still think the Libertarian Party keeping info about people’s political/philosophical beliefs on file and up to date for paid staffers and people with roles setting party policy is desirable from the standpoint of maintaining the party …
Previous Replies

Katie_Hingle https://forum.lpsf.org/u/katie_hingle
May 27
I wish the pro-life vs pro-choice wasn’t about babies. I am pro-life way
beyond babies.

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/5
Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 27
That’s a very good point, Jeff. Thank you for bringing it up. I still think the Libertarian Party keeping info about people’s political/philosophical beliefs on file and up to date for paid staffers and people with roles setting party policy is desirable from the standpoint of maintaining the party as a sustainably libertarian organization, as well as modeling the kind of governance we want to see in the world so that the public and voters will have reason to trust us, by being able to see that we’re already practicing what we preach in our own groups. “Be the change you want to see in the world.”

But I should have thought about people posting their answers to these surveys with regard to data harvesting, especially by big institutions trying to track and manipulate, if not outright control people in the case of government. Perhaps I’ll make a new version of the graphic with a warning at the bottom about disclosing your information. That could help raise awareness of the big data/surveillance problem. I’m actually quite aware of the issues that you mention, but somehow overlooked them in this context.

There’s definitely a conundrum though. In a global information society, where we may interact with large numbers of people we don’t know well, especially online where there can be all manner of deceptions, trust mechanisms are needed, and that means having some kind of assurance about the people you’re dealing with, which usually means information about them. But the collection of this information has real risks and dangers. I’d like to see each of us have a lot more control over our information, from our medical records to our shopping habits to our fingerprints, facial images, and genomes, and limits on institutional access to and use of this information on a mass basis.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/4
Jeff_Chan https://forum.lpsf.org/u/jeff_chan
May 27
This survey may be totally innocent, depending on who’s doing it and
for what purpose, but be aware that surveys in general can be used for
psychometric profiling to figure out how to market to you more
effectively, and the result can be sold on indefinitely. It can
become sort of like a personality fingerprint associated with your
identity. That can end up being more data about you for marketers,
governments, spy agencies, credit bureaus, law enforcement, etc.

Some of the puzzles, questionnaires, surveys, tests, contests, etc.,
in online ads are for such purposes also.

Cheers,

Jeff C,

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/3
FRNP https://forum.lpsf.org/u/frnp
May 27
Surveys are neat & nifty but divisive virtual reality gimmicks — especially when they focus on the most vague & abstract & contrived ideals, Starchild. It would more helpful to drill down to specifics on not just what folks think or feel or what they put in writing in pixels, or say, but whether Libertarians actually “WALK THE TALK”& Stand Up — not only for their Own Liberty but — to advocate on behalf of others’. “Virtual Reality is not Reality.”

We have real [ small ‘L’ ] libertarians who #JoinTheFun for Our local & National & International World Naked Bike Rides who :

Believe in Inalienable #BodyAutonomy & the Right to “Bare Arms” etc.
Do not believe any govt has any authority to mandate or dictate what We wear or don’t wear.
Put Our Bodies on the line & demonstrate in Public Space Our Values, Ideals for All to recognize & understand.
Protest against interweb tyrants who undermine our Inalienable & codified 1st Amendment Freedoms & nannie state elected officials ( aka #TheTemps ) who would — IF they could — do Us harm ( under deadly threat of armed arrest, judicial tarring & feathering, & caging worse than wild animals ) if We dare defy disobey & disregard their dumb laws which We never agreed to specifically.
Come Out & #JoinTheFun #BareAsYouDare on Sunday 11 June 2023 for the “International Classic” & “Woody Miller Memorial Ride” #WNBRsf2023 & as We tell the space cadet who misruns the twitterverse that marginalizing those he doesn’t like or agree with is bigotry & “un-american” ( it’s actually, sadly, very “american” if one checks the record for the #USgovt on genociding 100 Millions Natives, marginalizing Women, enslaving & still caging AAs/Blacks et al over non-aggressive/non-violent behaviors,& systematically overthrowing the entire UnderClass on behalf of elitist billionaires marionettists inc, etc ).

For the past two years, at least, more “libertarians” have attended the @SFWNBR https://twitter.com/sfwnbr than any & all of the in-person meetings of the @SanFranciscoLP ( perhaps combined ). It’s fertile grounds for recruitment.

11am Gathering
12pm/Noon Start
Rincon “Cupid’s Arrow” Park
The Embarcadero & Folsom Street
San Francisco USA .

https://forum.lpsf.org/uploads/default/original/2X/c/c007f49005e76d3627cce307e709924eef3bd21f.jpeg

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Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 27
An interesting “survey” I just came across… I changed the title to focus on the ideas – the original (?) version I saw asked “which side are you on?” and was titled “libertarian infighting” which didn’t seem super helpful, but I like the survey itself. You don’t have to identify as libertarian to fill it out, and some of the positions are arguably not libertarian, but this seems like a fair survey of philosophical issues on which there does tend to be some degree of disagreement among self-identified libertarians:

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

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[Starchild]

By the way, thanks for weighing in Katie. I don’t recall seeing you here before – are you new to the LPSF or other libertarian lists? Do you live in San Francisco? I’m curious to hear your background in the movement or how you heard about us or came to libertarian ideas, if you don’t mind sharing. And please consider yourself invited to attend (in person or remotely) our next meeting if you can make it. Please feel free to call me directly if you have questions or concerns, or just to say hi!

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))
Chair, Libertarian Party of San Francisco
(415) 573-7997

···

On May 27, 2023, at 2:14 PM, Katie Hingle via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:

Katie_Hingle https://forum.lpsf.org/u/katie_hingle
May 27
It’s how it’s being displayed on that survey

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In Reply To

Katie_Hingle https://forum.lpsf.org/u/katie_hingle
May 27
I wish the pro-life vs pro-choice wasn’t about babies. I am pro-life way beyond babies. ··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/5
Previous Replies

robert_goodwyn https://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 27
Who says that pro-life and pro-choice are opposites?
That’s the old ploy from the anti-choice crowd.

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/8
FRNP https://forum.lpsf.org/u/frnp
May 27
Real Freedom Fighters are never in the least bit inhibited about govt tools understanding Our opposition to their tyranny; the whole point of a ProTest/Demonstration ( unlike the nefarious interweb data bank survey schemes ) is that We Are Using Our Individual & Collective Vox & Bodies to Defy their tyranny BOLDLY without Face ( or Body ) MASKS ( unlike doing it in a cowardly way from closets & basements purportedly anonyMOUSEly behind computer screens. ).

https://forum.lpsf.org/uploads/default/original/2X/d/d1175e2d52a8b6ae600d946da067ef3b1a0d4d46.jpeg

https://forum.lpsf.org/uploads/default/original/2X/d/d40d07908b145d21052c7d307848793ec22f00bc.jpeg

https://forum.lpsf.org/uploads/default/original/2X/1/180ef1bc8fcf61697450f44082112f713bb57157.jpeg

dennz https://forum.lpsf.org/u/dennz
May 27
Glad to hear it Katie…you are right, “pro-Life” is more than babies. Here’s an interesting article laying out the history of eugenics by the ruling class going back generations. And of course, the euthanasia movement gathering steam around the world especially Canada. See meme below.

Why are they doing it? Eugenics to Pandemics Documentary https://sashalatypova.substack.com/p/why-are-they-doing-it-eugenics-to?Why are they doing it? Eugenics to Pandemics Documentary https://sashalatypova.substack.com/p/why-are-they-doing-it-eugenics-to?u
Note there is also a Pro-Life movement within the LP. I don’t have the link right now but can share with you lagerf.

Please contact me directly to discuss further. I am active in Pro-Life and would like to know you better.

Mike@Dennz.com mailto:Mike@Dennz.com
415-608-0269

[/uploads/default/original/2X/0/0329ede1281c2985230f922f55ff9875bbd8a90f.jpeg]

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/6
Katie_Hingle https://forum.lpsf.org/u/katie_hingle
May 27
I wish the pro-life vs pro-choice wasn’t about babies. I am pro-life way
beyond babies.

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/5
Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 27
That’s a very good point, Jeff. Thank you for bringing it up. I still think the Libertarian Party keeping info about people’s political/philosophical beliefs on file and up to date for paid staffers and people with roles setting party policy is desirable from the standpoint of maintaining the party as a sustainably libertarian organization, as well as modeling the kind of governance we want to see in the world so that the public and voters will have reason to trust us, by being able to see that we’re already practicing what we preach in our own groups. “Be the change you want to see in the world.”

But I should have thought about people posting their answers to these surveys with regard to data harvesting, especially by big institutions trying to track and manipulate, if not outright control people in the case of government. Perhaps I’ll make a new version of the graphic with a warning at the bottom about disclosing your information. That could help raise awareness of the big data/surveillance problem. I’m actually quite aware of the issues that you mention, but somehow overlooked them in this context.

There’s definitely a conundrum though. In a global information society, where we may interact with large numbers of people we don’t know well, especially online where there can be all manner of deceptions, trust mechanisms are needed, and that means having some kind of assurance about the people you’re dealing with, which usually means information about them. But the collection of this information has real risks and dangers. I’d like to see each of us have a lot more control over our information, from our medical records to our shopping habits to our fingerprints, facial images, and genomes, and limits on institutional access to and use of this information on a mass basis.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

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[Starchild]

P.S. – I do think the history of eugenics that Mike raises is good to know about – one of a number of dark sides to the historical progressive movement that shares a commonality with the ideology of modern progressives in terms of its willingness to override individual freedom and choice in the name of the “common good”.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

···

On May 27, 2023, at 9:31 PM, Starchild via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:

Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 28
To me, the term pro-life applies well to ending the unnecessary mass slaughter of animals kept in horrible factory farming conditions, as well as to seeking to prevent government wars, democides, and genocides.

Although my views on abortion have shifted a couple times, I’m now pretty firmly in the pro-choice camp (sorry Mike). In the case of fetuses (feti?), I don’t think they merit our protection simply as a consequence of being biologically alive. If preserving all independently living human matter were the correct stance, then we would need to embrace in seriousness the view satirically proclaimed by Monty Python, “Every sperm is sacred”:

Every Sperm is Sacred - Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk
In the political (as opposed to biological) realm, I see disapproval of abortion as part of a larger pattern of sex-negative bias that also manifests in opposition to a whole range of things including masturbation, pornography, prostitution, homosexuality, promiscuity (allowing as they do the enjoyment of sexuality for pleasure rather than procreation) and yes even nudity.

Speaking of which, thanks Marty for the heads-up on the SF World Nude Bike Ride happening June 11. I’ve put it on my calendar and hope to attend this year. (You don’t have to go nude to attend and support!) I just wish you would promote your cause without so many gratuitous digs at other libertarians.

Euthanasia, also known as death with dignity, seems to me in keeping with a pro-life appreciation of our time on this mortal coil. As a oenophile Mike, you don’t feel compelled to finish drinking every bottle of wine that’s gone bad, right?

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/14
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In Reply To

Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 27
That’s a very good point, Jeff. Thank you for bringing it up. I still think the Libertarian Party keeping info about people’s political/philosophical beliefs on file and up to date for paid staffers and people with roles setting party policy is desirable from the standpoint of maintaining the party …
Previous Replies

robert_goodwyn https://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 28
Interesting: all I’m asking is to accurately define the question, and that’s a problem for you.

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/13
dennz https://forum.lpsf.org/u/dennz
May 28
That position was never in question or controversial.

Mike

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/12
robert_goodwyn https://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 28
Not opposites. You can choose to not abort.

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/11
dennz https://forum.lpsf.org/u/dennz
May 27
Pro-Life believes life is sacred and abortion is murder.
Pro-choice says life is not sacred and can be legally and morally terminated by choice.

That seems different.

Michael Denny

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/10
Katie_Hingle https://forum.lpsf.org/u/katie_hingle
May 27
It’s how it’s being displayed on that survey

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[dennz]

Human life is especially sacred. It is a gift from God we should respect and be grateful from the moment of conception until natural death. To see it in any other way is to treat the sacred as profane. And that is a shame for those who miss the incredible wonder and joy in the miracle of human life.

Mike

···

Get Outlook for Androidhttps://aka.ms/ghei36

---

From: Starchild via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2023 11:31:35 PM
To: mike@dennz.com mike@dennz.com
Subject: Re: [LPSF Forum] [Discussion] Survey on philosophical positions in the libertarian movement

[https://forum.lpsf.org/user_avatar/forum.lpsf.org/starchild/45/533_2.png] Starchildhttps://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 28

To me, the term pro-life applies well to ending the unnecessary mass slaughter of animals kept in horrible factory farming conditions, as well as to seeking to prevent government wars, democides, and genocides.

Although my views on abortion have shifted a couple times, I’m now pretty firmly in the pro-choice camp (sorry Mike). In the case of fetuses (feti?), I don’t think they merit our protection simply as a consequence of being biologically alive. If preserving all independently living human matter were the correct stance, then we would need to embrace in seriousness the view satirically proclaimed by Monty Python, “Every sperm is sacred”:

Every Sperm is Sacred - Monty Python’s The Meaning of Lifehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk

In the political (as opposed to biological) realm, I see disapproval of abortion as part of a larger pattern of sex-negative bias that also manifests in opposition to a whole range of things including masturbation, pornography, prostitution, homosexuality, promiscuity (allowing as they do the enjoyment of sexuality for pleasure rather than procreation) and yes even nudity.

Speaking of which, thanks Marty for the heads-up on the SF World Nude Bike Ride happening June 11. I’ve put it on my calendar and hope to attend this year. (You don’t have to go nude to attend and support!) I just wish you would promote your cause without so many gratuitous digs at other libertarians.

Euthanasia, also known as death with dignity, seems to me in keeping with a pro-life appreciation of our time on this mortal coil. As a oenophile Mike, you don’t feel compelled to finish drinking every bottle of wine that’s gone bad, right?

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

··· (click for more details)https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/14

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[robert_goodwyn]

Look upon me, St. Mike, I don’t have a right to life.

I have a right to be free from aggression and fraud. That covers all the living to which I’m entitled.

Sorry, but I’m pretty sure that you are lying whey you boast about seeing all human life as sacred. We look at the policies you would be supporting if you really believed that. You would not only promote every coercive law to maximize the quantity of human lives, but you would also voluntarily give away all your own wealth to that end.

No Mike, I think you are a fake. You are fine with all kinds of killing and death. You just sought out the expedient exception.

Here is the basic morality of the abortion issue: being conceived and carried are gifts to which you are not entitled. If you die from being deprived of them, it is sad, but it is not murder.

They are gifts, and there is absolutely nothing generous about you forcing someone else to give those gifts. It only makes you a thief.

I would be happy enough with you if you would strip away the sophistry and be honest about your position. Tell the truth, St. Mike.

The truth is that you seek to coerce women to carry pregnancies to term. That’s your position. Say it.

Bob

···

On Sat May 27 2023 21:53:37 GMT-0700 (PDT), mike@dennz.com via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:

dennz
May 28 |

Human life is especially sacred. It is a gift from God we should respect and be grateful from the moment of conception until natural death. To see it in any other way is to treat the sacred as profane. And that is a shame for those who miss the incredible wonder and joy in the miracle of human life.

Mike
··· (click for more details) @media () {#yiv6283819653 html {background:#151515 !important;}#yiv6283819653 h1, #yiv6283819653 h2, #yiv6283819653 h3, #yiv6283819653 h4, #yiv6283819653 h5, #yiv6283819653 h6, #yiv6283819653 p, #yiv6283819653 span, #yiv6283819653 td {color:inherit !important;}#yiv6283819653 .yiv6283819653filtered99999 {border-color:#454545 !important;}#yiv6283819653 .yiv6283819653filtered99999 {border-color:#454545 !important;}#yiv6283819653 {color:#dddddd;}#yiv6283819653 {background:#151515 !important;}#yiv6283819653 {background:#151515 !important;border-bottom:1px solid #454545 !important;}#yiv6283819653 {border-top-color:#151515 !important;}#yiv6283819653 {background:#222222 !important;color:#dddddd !important;}#yiv6283819653 {background:#062e3d !important;color:#dddddd !important;}#yiv6283819653 {background:#323232 !important;border-color:#454545 !important;}}

[Starchild]

Robert,

Let’s try to avoid personal attacks please, and keep discussion here civil. Mike Denny is a longtime activist and committed to the freedom cause, and I’ve never known him to promote coercive laws. We may not all see eye-to-eye on everything, but a little goodwill and respect goes a long way toward minimizing counter-productive infighting.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

···

On May 28, 2023, at 12:35 PM, robert goodwyn via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:

robert_goodwyn https://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 28
Look upon me, St. Mike, I don’t have a right to life.

I have a right to be free from aggression and fraud. That covers all the living to which I’m entitled.

Sorry, but I’m pretty sure that you are lying whey you boast about seeing all human life as sacred. We look at the policies you would be supporting if you really believed that. You would not only promote every coercive law to maximize the quantity of human lives, but you would also voluntarily give away all your own wealth to that end.

No Mike, I think you are a fake. You are fine with all kinds of killing and death. You just sought out the expedient exception.

Here is the basic morality of the abortion issue: being conceived and carried are gifts to which you are not entitled. If you die from being deprived of them, it is sad, but it is not murder.

They are gifts, and there is absolutely nothing generous about you forcing someone else to give those gifts. It only makes you a thief.

I would be happy enough with you if you would strip away the sophistry and be honest about your position. Tell the truth, St. Mike.

The truth is that you seek to coerce women to carry pregnancies to term. That’s your position. Say it.

Bob

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/18
Visit Topic https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/18 or reply to this email to respond.

In Reply To

Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 27
That’s a very good point, Jeff. Thank you for bringing it up. I still think the Libertarian Party keeping info about people’s political/philosophical beliefs on file and up to date for paid staffers and people with roles setting party policy is desirable from the standpoint of maintaining the party …
Previous Replies

dennz https://forum.lpsf.org/u/dennz
May 28
Human life is especially sacred. It is a gift from God we should respect and be grateful from the moment of conception until natural death. To see it in any other way is to treat the sacred as profane. And that is a shame for those who miss the incredible wonder and joy in the miracle of human life.

Mike

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/17
Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 28
P.S. – I do think the history of eugenics that Mike raises is good to know about – one of a number of dark sides to the historical progressive movement that shares a commonality with the ideology of modern progressives in terms of its willingness to override individual freedom and choice in the name of the “common good”.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/16
Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 28
By the way, thanks for weighing in Katie. I don’t recall seeing you here before – are you new to the LPSF or other libertarian lists? Do you live in San Francisco? I’m curious to hear your background in the movement or how you heard about us or came to libertarian ideas, if you don’t mind sharing. And please consider yourself invited to attend (in person or remotely) our next meeting if you can make it. Please feel free to call me directly if you have questions or concerns, or just to say hi!

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))
Chair, Libertarian Party of San Francisco
(415) 573-7997

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/15
Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 28
To me, the term pro-life applies well to ending the unnecessary mass slaughter of animals kept in horrible factory farming conditions, as well as to seeking to prevent government wars, democides, and genocides.

Although my views on abortion have shifted a couple times, I’m now pretty firmly in the pro-choice camp (sorry Mike). In the case of fetuses (feti?), I don’t think they merit our protection simply as a consequence of being biologically alive. If preserving all independently living human matter were the correct stance, then we would need to embrace in seriousness the view satirically proclaimed by Monty Python, “Every sperm is sacred”:

Every Sperm is Sacred - Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk
In the political (as opposed to biological) realm, I see disapproval of abortion as part of a larger pattern of sex-negative bias that also manifests in opposition to a whole range of things including masturbation, pornography, prostitution, homosexuality, promiscuity (allowing as they do the enjoyment of sexuality for pleasure rather than procreation) and yes even nudity.

Speaking of which, thanks Marty for the heads-up on the SF World Nude Bike Ride happening June 11. I’ve put it on my calendar and hope to attend this year. (You don’t have to go nude to attend and support!) I just wish you would promote your cause without so many gratuitous digs at other libertarians.

Euthanasia, also known as death with dignity, seems to me in keeping with a pro-life appreciation of our time on this mortal coil. As a oenophile Mike, you don’t feel compelled to finish drinking every bottle of wine that’s gone bad, right?

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/14
robert_goodwyn https://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 28
Interesting: all I’m asking is to accurately define the question, and that’s a problem for you.

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/13
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[dennz]

Robert…from the sound of your post, I was Libertarian since before you were born. You know nothing about me or my position on Pro-Life or Libertarian issues. Maybe that might change if we have a drink together.

It will probably take more than that to deal with what appears to be your extreme native arrogance…specially in a friendly forum as this. But we can try.

Michael Denny

···

---

From: robert goodwyn via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2023 12:35 PM
To: mike@dennz.com mike@dennz.com
Subject: Re: [LPSF Forum] [Discussion] Survey on philosophical positions in the libertarian movement

[https://forum.lpsf.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/45.png] robert_goodwynhttps://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 28

Look upon me, St. Mike, I don’t have a right to life.

I have a right to be free from aggression and fraud. That covers all the living to which I’m entitled.

Sorry, but I’m pretty sure that you are lying whey you boast about seeing all human life as sacred. We look at the policies you would be supporting if you really believed that. You would not only promote every coercive law to maximize the quantity of human lives, but you would also voluntarily give away all your own wealth to that end.

No Mike, I think you are a fake. You are fine with all kinds of killing and death. You just sought out the expedient exception.

Here is the basic morality of the abortion issue: being conceived and carried are gifts to which you are not entitled. If you die from being deprived of them, it is sad, but it is not murder.

They are gifts, and there is absolutely nothing generous about you forcing someone else to give those gifts. It only makes you a thief.

I would be happy enough with you if you would strip away the sophistry and be honest about your position. Tell the truth, St. Mike.

The truth is that you seek to coerce women to carry pregnancies to term. That’s your position. Say it.

Bob

··· (click for more details)https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/18

---

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[FRNP]

As the ONLY Libertarian who has ever exceeded ALL others winning Libertarian Democrat & Republican Votes — unlike others on this thread — articulating the only Principled Libertarian ProChoice&ProLife OPTION, a potential #WinWinWin for babe, Mom-in-Crisis, potential Loving Parents/Family I despise surveys & contrived referendums that only perpetuate nonsense polarizing options that empower govts & neglect both common sense & history.

Even keeping abortion on the table, #ADOPTION is the most popular choice among Women&Girls in pregnancy crises ( often left holding the bag by the deadbeat abortive sperm donor ) because it potentially ENRICHES Women&Girls with US$40,000 to US$100,000+ ( often with free room & board from the Adoptive Parents who want to ensure a Safe & Healthy & Low Stress pregnancy/birth ) — instead of empowering & enriching govts & their #IndustrialPrisonComplex or #MedicalMurderComplex cronies which has been the status quo since RvW was handed via memo to #TheTemps by their corporatist marionettists.

[Starchild]

Marty,

Adoption, especially if there is compensation for mothers undergoing pregnancies that are to them unwanted, is indeed a solution that many people in both abortion camps should be able to get behind.

I don’t really understand your objection to surveys. Your post included a graphic stating that the U.S. medical system kills 225,000 people a year. But you likely wouldn’t have this data to share if someone (probably multiple someones) had not at some point collected and compiled the information by surveying deaths at different institutions.

How does asking people where they stand on controversial issues “perpetuate nonsense polarizing options”? You ask Libertarian figures where they stand on the nudity issue. Are you suggesting that you should stop doing that?

Finally, I don’t think it’s true that you received more votes in your race than has any other Libertarian running for office. Not that it really matters. But to the extent it does matter, and to the extent you did well as a candidate, surely it matters as a basis for drawing lessons from your campaign for DC mayor, not just as something to brag about. I don’t recall you talking in detail about your run. What did you do? How many doors did you knock on? How much money did you spend? What issues did you run on? How many volunteers were involved? To what do you attribute your showing? For the information of the votes you got to be really useful, we need more information than just some variation on, “I was great, and (by implication) all the other Libertarians sucked”.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

···

On May 29, 2023, at 4:37 PM, iMRMosLV! via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:

FRNP https://forum.lpsf.org/u/frnp
May 29
As the ONLY Libertarian who has ever exceeded ALL others winning Libertarian Democrat & Republican Votes — unlike others on this thread — articulating the only Principled Libertarian ProChoice&ProLife OPTION, a potential #WinWinWin for babe, Mom-in-Crisis, potential Loving Parents/Family I despise surveys & contrived referendums that only perpetuate nonsense polarizing options that empower govts & neglect both common sense & history.

Even keeping abortion on the table, #ADOPTION is the most popular choice among Women&Girls in pregnancy crises ( often left holding the bag by the deadbeat abortive sperm donor ) because it potentially ENRICHES Women&Girls with US$40,000 to US$100,000+ ( often with free room & board from the Adoptive Parentswho want to ensure a Safe & Healthy & Low Stress pregnancy/birth ) — instead of empowering & enriching govts & their #IndustrialPrisonComplex or #MedicalMurderComplex cronies which has been the status quo since RvW was handed via memo to #TheTemps by their corporatist marionettists.

https://forum.lpsf.org/uploads/default/original/2X/0/007389c68741b6b85e464ba76378df8fdf84fc66.jpeg

https://forum.lpsf.org/uploads/default/original/1X/b7f5465238086927447f6ab3f6edafe30478d14d.jpeg

Visit Topic https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/21 or reply to this email to respond.

Previous Replies

dennz https://forum.lpsf.org/u/dennz
May 28
Robert…from the sound of your post, I was Libertarian since before you were born. You know nothing about me or my position on Pro-Life or Libertarian issues. Maybe that might change if we have a drink together.

It will probably take more than that to deal with what appears to be your extreme native arrogance…specially in a friendly forum as this. But we can try.

Michael Denny

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/20
Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 28
Robert,

Let’s try to avoid personal attacks please, and keep discussion here civil. Mike Denny is a longtime activist and committed to the freedom cause, and I’ve never known him to promote coercive laws. We may not all see eye-to-eye on everything, but a little goodwill and respect goes a long way toward minimizing counter-productive infighting.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/19
robert_goodwyn https://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 28
Look upon me, St. Mike, I don’t have a right to life.

I have a right to be free from aggression and fraud. That covers all the living to which I’m entitled.

Sorry, but I’m pretty sure that you are lying whey you boast about seeing all human life as sacred. We look at the policies you would be supporting if you really believed that. You would not only promote every coercive law to maximize the quantity of human lives, but you would also voluntarily give away all your own wealth to that end.

No Mike, I think you are a fake. You are fine with all kinds of killing and death. You just sought out the expedient exception.

Here is the basic morality of the abortion issue: being conceived and carried are gifts to which you are not entitled. If you die from being deprived of them, it is sad, but it is not murder.

They are gifts, and there is absolutely nothing generous about you forcing someone else to give those gifts. It only makes you a thief.

I would be happy enough with you if you would strip away the sophistry and be honest about your position. Tell the truth, St. Mike.

The truth is that you seek to coerce women to carry pregnancies to term. That’s your position. Say it.

Bob

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/18
dennz https://forum.lpsf.org/u/dennz
May 28
Human life is especially sacred. It is a gift from God we should respect and be grateful from the moment of conception until natural death. To see it in any other way is to treat the sacred as profane. And that is a shame for those who miss the incredible wonder and joy in the miracle of human life.

Mike

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/17
Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 28
P.S. – I do think the history of eugenics that Mike raises is good to know about – one of a number of dark sides to the historical progressive movement that shares a commonality with the ideology of modern progressives in terms of its willingness to override individual freedom and choice in the name of the “common good”.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

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[FRNP]

Because Your/The survey did not include ADOPTION ( pro-ADOPTION v
anti-ADOPTION as an option for Libertarians & others.

Scientific studies are by definition not contrived or polarized or
polarizing; they simply collect data from credible & certifiable available
clinical records as Dr Starfield clearly did before making such a damning
declaration about Her own field/career & colleagues & industry, which
nonetheless has withstood the test of several decades & defied credible
criticism from those who perpetuate the MYTH thad MDs ( little more than drug
pushers & butchers in fancier white coats ) are worthy of their pop
cult/ure strategic marketing & deceptive pr.

···

On Mon, May 29, 2023 at 6:59 PM Starchild via LPSF Forum < noreply@forum.lpsf.org> wrote:

Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 30

Marty,

Adoption, especially if there is compensation for mothers undergoing
pregnancies that are to them unwanted, is indeed a solution that many
people in both abortion camps should be able to get behind.

I don’t really understand your objection to surveys. Your post included a
graphic stating that the U.S. medical system kills 225,000 people a year.
But you likely wouldn’t have this data to share if someone (probably
multiple someones) had not at some point collected and compiled the
information by surveying deaths at different institutions.

How does asking people where they stand on controversial issues
“perpetuate nonsense polarizing options”? You ask Libertarian figures where
they stand on the nudity issue. Are you suggesting that you should stop
doing that?

Finally, I don’t think it’s true that you received more votes in your race
than has any other Libertarian running for office. Not that it really
matters. But to the extent it does matter, and to the extent you did well
as a candidate, surely it matters as a basis for drawing lessons from your
campaign for DC mayor, not just as something to brag about. I don’t recall
you talking in detail about your run. What did you do? How many doors did
you knock on? How much money did you spend? What issues did you run on? How
many volunteers were involved? To what do you attribute your showing? For
the information of the votes you got to be really useful, we need more
information than just some variation on, “I was great, and (by implication)
all the other Libertarians sucked”.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))
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–
Thank you. Have a great day!

---

Martin Moulton
2018 DC Libertarian Party Candidate for District of Columbia Mayor
#LiberateDC | LP.org

[Starchild]

I don’t know who originated the survey or chart I posted, Marty. As I believe I noted, I just came across it on Twitter. It seems honest and useful to me because I myself have noticed intellectual differences of opinion among self-identified libertarians on most, maybe all, of the issues for which it lists sliders. But my guess is that adoption is not listed because it is not known as an area of intellectual disagreement among libertarians. I don’t know of any who are against adoption, do you? I don’t think simply noting differences of opinion and asking where people stand, especially in a format that allows people to choose a middle or neutral position, is inherently polarizing. While the original title did seem likely to me to contribute to exacerbating polarization, that is why I changed it.

Regarding the medical industry, my view of it may not be quite as cynical as yours – calling them “little more than drug pushers & butchers in fancier white coats” sets a pretty high bar! – but I think it’s safe to say I’m less trusting of the medical establishment than most people. I am not a big believer in credentials, and certainly don’t think anyone is automatically wise, honest, or knowledgeable about any particular health care specifics just because they wear a white coat or have an “MD” after their name. The health care industry in this country is badly screwed up in many ways, no question.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

···

On May 29, 2023, at 9:04 PM, iMRMosLV! via LPSF Forum noreply@forum.lpsf.org wrote:

FRNP https://forum.lpsf.org/u/frnp
May 30
Because Your/The survey did not include ADOPTION ( pro-ADOPTION v
anti-ADOPTION as an option for Libertarians & others.

Scientific studies are by definition not contrived or polarized or
polarizing; they simply collect data from credible & certifiable available
clinical records as Dr Starfield clearly did before making such a damning
declaration about Her own field/career & colleagues & industry, which
nonetheless has withstood the test of several decades & defied credible
criticism from those who perpetuate the MYTH thad MDs ( little more than drug
pushers & butchers in fancier white coats ) are worthy of their pop
cult/ure strategic marketing & deceptive pr.

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/23
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In Reply To

Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 27
An interesting “survey” I just came across… I changed the title to focus on the ideas – the original (?) version I saw asked “which side are you on?” and was titled “libertarian infighting” which didn’t seem super helpful, but I like the survey itself. You don’t have to identify as libertarian to fi…
Previous Replies

Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 30
Marty,

Adoption, especially if there is compensation for mothers undergoing pregnancies that are to them unwanted, is indeed a solution that many people in both abortion camps should be able to get behind.

I don’t really understand your objection to surveys. Your post included a graphic stating that the U.S. medical system kills 225,000 people a year. But you likely wouldn’t have this data to share if someone (probably multiple someones) had not at some point collected and compiled the information by surveying deaths at different institutions.

How does asking people where they stand on controversial issues “perpetuate nonsense polarizing options”? You ask Libertarian figures where they stand on the nudity issue. Are you suggesting that you should stop doing that?

Finally, I don’t think it’s true that you received more votes in your race than has any other Libertarian running for office. Not that it really matters. But to the extent it does matter, and to the extent you did well as a candidate, surely it matters as a basis for drawing lessons from your campaign for DC mayor, not just as something to brag about. I don’t recall you talking in detail about your run. What did you do? How many doors did you knock on? How much money did you spend? What issues did you run on? How many volunteers were involved? To what do you attribute your showing? For the information of the votes you got to be really useful, we need more information than just some variation on, “I was great, and (by implication) all the other Libertarians sucked”.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/22
FRNP https://forum.lpsf.org/u/frnp
May 29
As the ONLY Libertarian who has ever exceeded ALL others winning Libertarian Democrat & Republican Votes — unlike others on this thread — articulating the only Principled Libertarian ProChoice&ProLife OPTION, a potential #WinWinWin for babe, Mom-in-Crisis, potential Loving Parents/Family I despise surveys & contrived referendums that only perpetuate nonsense polarizing options that empower govts & neglect both common sense & history.

Even keeping abortion on the table, #ADOPTION is the most popular choice among Women&Girls in pregnancy crises ( often left holding the bag by the deadbeat abortive sperm donor ) because it potentially ENRICHES Women&Girls with US$40,000 to US$100,000+ ( often with free room & board from the Adoptive Parentswho want to ensure a Safe & Healthy & Low Stress pregnancy/birth ) — instead of empowering & enriching govts & their #IndustrialPrisonComplex or #MedicalMurderComplex cronies which has been the status quo since RvW was handed via memo to #TheTemps by their corporatist marionettists.

https://forum.lpsf.org/uploads/default/original/2X/0/007389c68741b6b85e464ba76378df8fdf84fc66.jpeg

https://forum.lpsf.org/uploads/default/original/1X/b7f5465238086927447f6ab3f6edafe30478d14d.jpeg

dennz https://forum.lpsf.org/u/dennz
May 28
Robert…from the sound of your post, I was Libertarian since before you were born. You know nothing about me or my position on Pro-Life or Libertarian issues. Maybe that might change if we have a drink together.

It will probably take more than that to deal with what appears to be your extreme native arrogance…specially in a friendly forum as this. But we can try.

Michael Denny

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/20
Starchild https://forum.lpsf.org/u/starchild
May 28
Robert,

Let’s try to avoid personal attacks please, and keep discussion here civil. Mike Denny is a longtime activist and committed to the freedom cause, and I’ve never known him to promote coercive laws. We may not all see eye-to-eye on everything, but a little goodwill and respect goes a long way toward minimizing counter-productive infighting.

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

··· (click for more details) https://forum.lpsf.org/t/survey-on-philosophical-positions-in-the-libertarian-movement/21825/19
robert_goodwyn https://forum.lpsf.org/u/robert_goodwyn
May 28
Look upon me, St. Mike, I don’t have a right to life.

I have a right to be free from aggression and fraud. That covers all the living to which I’m entitled.

Sorry, but I’m pretty sure that you are lying whey you boast about seeing all human life as sacred. We look at the policies you would be supporting if you really believed that. You would not only promote every coercive law to maximize the quantity of human lives, but you would also voluntarily give away all your own wealth to that end.

No Mike, I think you are a fake. You are fine with all kinds of killing and death. You just sought out the expedient exception.

Here is the basic morality of the abortion issue: being conceived and carried are gifts to which you are not entitled. If you die from being deprived of them, it is sad, but it is not murder.

They are gifts, and there is absolutely nothing generous about you forcing someone else to give those gifts. It only makes you a thief.

I would be happy enough with you if you would strip away the sophistry and be honest about your position. Tell the truth, St. Mike.

The truth is that you seek to coerce women to carry pregnancies to term. That’s your position. Say it.

Bob

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[jeff]

I really like this idea. It covers a lot of the important issues.

However, I think it misses a few of the biggest issues that drive the
current conflict. For example, some people like libertarianism because
they think it will lead to a society that is more tolerant of
controversial speech and alternative lifestyles, while others like
libertarianism because they think it will be more effective at
eradicating nontraditional speech and lifestyles.

I like the simplicity of the icons, but they don’t capture the nuances
that are central to some of the issues (like abortion).

I’m happy to see people using the infighting to further our
understanding of libertarian theory and application!

Life & Liberty,
Jeff

···

On 26 May 2023, at 20:07, Starchild via LPSF Forum wrote:

An interesting “survey” I just came across… I changed the title to
focus on the ideas – the original (?) version I saw asked “which
side are you on?” and was titled “libertarian infighting” which
didn’t seem super helpful, but I like the survey itself. You don’t
have to identify as libertarian to fill it out, and some of the
positions are arguably not libertarian, but this seems like a fair
survey of philosophical issues on which there does tend to be some
degree of disagreement among self-identified libertarians:

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

---

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