RE: UNIONS [lpsf-discuss] Re: Prop. 75

Franklin....

What part(s) of Mr. Wood's article do you disagree with? Do you have a
different version of labor history? If so, we'd rather hear that than a
threat to leave if some happen to agree with Mr. Woods.

In an earlier message you said to me "You have my respect but not my
support. I won't support you unless you support me."

It might seem strange we don't do more politicking as we are a political
party. Maybe we should. But this is a party of principle first. While
there are probably many cases to be made for your position of "no
support", vote trading (you support me and I'll support you whether we
agree or not) isn't really what we're about at the SFLP. I can't say for
sure about other LPs around the country.

So far everyone seems to be enjoying the dialogue and its sincerity. No
matter what the outcome, Libertarians always enjoy a lively discussion.
From that perspective alone, you'd fit right in.

You asked if I considered the protection of your person and property to
be a right (protected by the courts)? And then you stated that "This is
the right that you are "alienating" when doing business with a limited
liability company."

I don't consider the protection of my person and property to be a right
protected by the courts. Rights are inalienable and not subject to what
the courts say about them. I'm responsible for my own protection as is
everyone else. This discussion is about a contractual understanding
between trading partners enforced like any other contractual
relationship. In this situation, the business states their position on
this critically important issue when the company is first organized.

The concept of limited liability is not about protecting me as a
business owner. The party most protected by limited liability is the
consumer who buys goods or services at a reduced cost. It's the way we
in transactions can measure and apply cost to the outer limits of risk.

You said "Unlimited liability would raise these insurance costs and
would cause more pressure on companies to be careful about what they
sell, which would eliminate the need for government regulations in this
area."

I'd rather the consumer made that decision rather that prohibiting them
from the option. A consumer can have as much protection as possible by
doing business with full liability sole proprietorships and
partnerships. Also, customers are free (and often do in larger business
deals) demand extra insurance protection. This isn't practical to do for
the average Joe walking in off the street and buying a pack of
cigarettes or other less pedestrian transaction. What you are proposing
would restrict sales to only those who signed contracts agreeing to give
up their rights to claim liability or making the goods or services so
expensive only rich people could buy them.

I'm not grasping the logic or the benefit of a business environment
without the possibility of limited liability organizations. The idea
that the law should outlaw this form of business doesn't seem like
freedom or a path to moving us from the current mercantilism we all
abhor to something better.

Am I missing something?

Mike

Dear Everyone;

Some articles on unions which you may find useful all
came from postings on the Mises Institute. And I am
afraid Franklin won't like a single one of them.

Yes, it is true there were sweat houses run by large
corporations. Yet in an economy which was expanding
through the Industrial Revolution free market forces
would have forced those employers to change their
tactics or lose their employees.

Secondly, for Franklin, true Libertarians do not
condemn the right of workers to form unions to gain
better working conditions, pay or benefits. These are
rights of free association. It is when those free
rights of association are abrogated in the name of
unions in power plays by union bosses to GET worker
rights through force.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

Markets, Not Unions, Gave us Leisure
by Thomas DiLorenzo

http://www.mises.org/story/1590

The Myth of Voluntary Unions
by Thomas DiLorenzo

http://www.mises.org/story/1604

Do Capitalists Have Superior Bargaining Power?
by Thomas DiLorenzo

http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?control=1602

--- Mike Denny <mike@...> wrote:

What part(s) of Mr. Wood's article do you disagree with?

I am not an expert on labor history but I know that there were
numerous instances where corporations used to government to inflict
violence on union members. And the improvement in working conditions
that we enjoy today were first brought about as a result of unions.
It is obvious that if employers are organized and employees are not
organized, then employees are at a terrible disadvantage in
negotiating their working conditions. Unions simply give workers a
chance at parity in negotiating power.

The Norris-La Guardia Act was designed to prevent companies from using
the government to attack unions. It was an extremely pro- free market
piece of legislation and should be supported by anyone who values
freedom and small government. The Wagner Act was regulation favoring
unions and the Taft-Hartley Act was regulation against unions. I
oppose both, since I favor freedom and small government. But this
article actually praises Taft-Hartley which shows that the author
would rather attack unions than defend freedom. Taft-Hartley is
nothing but government regulation.

In an earlier message you said to me "You have my respect but not my
support. I won't support you unless you support me."

It might seem strange we don't do more politicking as we are a political
party. Maybe we should. But this is a party of principle first.

What principle? We both support more freedom and less government. We
just disagree about the details of what that means. We don't disagree
about broad principles. I think libertarians mix up details with
general principles.

It is worth remembering that in the 1800's the left consisted of
socialists and anarchists. The anarchists where a significant force
on the left and were against big government.

I find it sad that people who support freedom can't put aside their
differences and work on points of agreement. That is why freedom is
losing out in the practical world of politics.

I don't consider the protection of my person and property to be a right
protected by the courts. Rights are inalienable and not subject to what
the courts say about them. I'm responsible for my own protection as is
everyone else.

I don't understand. If someone punches you in the nose, who will you
turn to for redress?

You said "Unlimited liability would raise these insurance costs and
would cause more pressure on companies to be careful about what they
sell, which would eliminate the need for government regulations in this
area."

I'd rather the consumer made that decision rather than prohibiting them
from the option. A consumer can have as much protection as possible by
doing business with full liability sole proprietorships and
partnerships. Also, customers are free (and often do in larger business
deals) demand extra insurance protection. This isn't practical to do for
the average Joe walking in off the street and buying a pack of
cigarettes or other less pedestrian transaction. What you are proposing
would restrict sales to only those who signed contracts agreeing to give
up their rights to claim liability or making the goods or services so
expensive only rich people could buy them.

I answered this here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lpsf-discuss/message/5932

I'm not grasping the logic or the benefit of a business environment
without the possibility of limited liability organizations. The idea
that the law should outlaw this form of business doesn't seem like
freedom or a path to moving us from the current mercantilism we all
abhor to something better.

The law wouldn't outlaw this form of business. It would simply cease
to recognize it. This is how the law was in the early days of our
country. What I am suggesting is a simplification of government and
law, not new regulation.