RE: [lpsf-discuss] URGENT ACTION ITEM: Libertarian-sounding group needs help fig

Dear David,

You are free to pursue your personal feelings and agendas regarding
animals in any way you chose. Once you seek to use the power of
government to advance your personal mission at the expense of someone
else's freedom who isn't infringing on other human beings, it ceases to
be a libertarian activity. One's personal fear of pit bulls or dislike
of certain breed characteristics doesn't change that.

There can be no government protection against "fear" or "stress or
danger". Teaching kids and others that animals are unpredictable and
cannot be counted on to respect individual rights is a good thing IMHO.
That's where the Breed vs Deed is important. Once the deed is done, the
owner is responsible and sanctions are appropriate. Holding the breed
responsible is assigning responsibility to an entity incapable of acting
responsibly. You might as well ask a cat to bark.

People, on the other hand, can be expected to act responsibly or to
accept the consequences of their irresponsible behavior. Choosing to
have a pit bull or crazy looking cat isn't necessarily irresponsible
behavior and it shouldn't be sanctioned by government in a world that
respects liberty and a peaceful civil society.

Best regards,

Mike

On Behalf Of DAVID GOGGIN

Hello:
I feel compelled to respond to this issue. Yes, Pit Bulls were bred to be aggressive. However, who is responsible for this and all other selective breeding? Homo Sapiens. Since we as a race are responsible for the beginning, then we should be responsible for the out-come. It is not as though the dogs asked for this, so why should they suffer for another one of our attempts to un-successfully "play god"? Humans are adept at manipulating things to accomplish their own ends, but when disaster strikes as inevitably it will, we wish to apportion the blame away from the real culpable parties, namely ourselves.
Leilani
(Oh no! Let us kill them!)

Mike Denny <mike@...> wrote:
Dear David,

You are free to pursue your personal feelings and agendas regarding
animals in any way you chose. Once you seek to use the power of
government to advance your personal mission at the expense of someone
else's freedom who isn't infringing on other human beings, it ceases to
be a libertarian activity. One's personal fear of pit bulls or dislike
of certain breed characteristics doesn't change that.

There can be no government protection against "fear" or "stress or
danger". Teaching kids and others that animals are unpredictable and
cannot be counted on to respect individual rights is a good thing IMHO.
That's where the Breed vs Deed is important. Once the deed is done, the
owner is responsible and sanctions are appropriate. Holding the breed
responsible is assigning responsibility to an entity incapable of acting
responsibly. You might as well ask a cat to bark.

People, on the other hand, can be expected to act responsibly or to
accept the consequences of their irresponsible behavior. Choosing to
have a pit bull or crazy looking cat isn't necessarily irresponsible
behavior and it shouldn't be sanctioned by government in a world that
respects liberty and a peaceful civil society.

Best regards,

Mike

On Behalf Of DAVID GOGGIN

It is not as though the dogs asked for this, so why should they suffer for another one of our >attempts to un-successfully "play god"?

Well said.

But one must differentiate between a particular pit bull (who may well be innocent until proven guilty, being already born and deserving, like a baby human, of many rights and duties of care as a member of civil society) and the breed as a whole.

Humans are adept at manipulating things to accomplish their own ends, but when disaster strikes >as inevitably it will

Inevitably?

DG

Mike and David,

  Of course I am also a vegetarian, and I'm rather surprised to hear that people in the local vegetarian community favor breed-specific legislation regulating pit bulls. Do they believe that individual rights exist only for humans, and that when it comes to animals, it's OK to brand entire groups as dangerous?

  I do agree that sentient beings have the right not to be intentionally brought into the world with genetic defects, and I would consider a predisposition toward violence to be such a defect. Once such an animal is in the world, however, do we assume that he or she cannot exist without engaging in inappropriate violence? For all the pit bull incidents that there are, I assume they still represent a small percentage of the pit bulls that are out there. So most pit bulls are behaving responsibly -- whether you want to give the credit to them or simply to their human companions.

  Put the average human male in a certain situation, and there is a fair chance that *he* will react in a violent and irresponsible manner. For example, arrange for him to walk into to his bedroom and find his life partner in bed with another man. Does this mean that men are dangerous animals who need to be controlled just by virtue of being who they are? Many statists think so.

  Dogs may not be able to think rationally as humans can, but they are capable of restraint, and of learning to control their violent tendencies. As with humans, some individuals do not have strong violent tendencies to begin with. And some humans have been known to make statements like, "A man who is friendly and docile when he finds his wife with another man is not a real man." And the capacity to think rationally obviously does not stop many humans from committing violent, irrational acts, while many dogs do succeed in avoiding such acts despite lacking the capacity for rational thought. So it makes little sense to me to use that capacity as the standard by which a human or non-human animal is judged to be worthy of having individual rights and not prima facie declared unacceptably dangerous to polite society.

Yours in liberty,
          <<< Starchild >>>

P.S. - See also the response below from a libertarian on another list:

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This is a very interesting discussion and one that has helped me conceptualize my views more clearly!
Thus far, I think Starchild is exactly on point.

Do they believe that individual rights exist only for humans, and that when it comes to animals, it's OK to brand entire groups as dangerous?

No.

I think the belief is that individual pit bulls have a right to be deemed innocent until proven guilty and also enjoy the same duty of care we'd expect for a baby human.

I do agree that sentient beings have the right not to be intentionally brought into the world with genetic defects, and I would consider a predisposition toward violence to be such a defect.

I would too, though not as such, but perhaps because the being's natural desire to run around having fun attacking things is always thwarted, or its tendency is used to its own harm (e.g. in intentionally staged dog fights)

Once such an animal is in the world, however, do we assume that he or she cannot exist without engaging in inappropriate violence?

I don't know enough about pit bulls (my fancy is cats not dogs) to say. But I have heard stories of some friendly pit bulls, so it is not impossible. And your argument from statistics is compelling.

The question is whether the risk to public safety outweighs the freedom to have a presumably friendly or controllable pit bull as a pet.

And the capacity to think rationally obviously does not stop many humans from committing violent, irrational acts, while many dogs do succeed in avoiding such acts despite lacking the capacity for rational thought. So it makes little sense to me to use that capacity as the standard by which a human or non-human animal is judged to be worthy of having individual rights and not prima facie declared unacceptably dangerous to polite society.

Well said!

DG

Inevitably. As a holder of a recent doctorate awarded in Mediaeval Archaeology, I feel extremely qualified to make this statement. Again, I re-iterate, inevitably.
Leilani

DAVID GOGGIN <dg2222@...> wrote:

It is not as though the dogs asked for this, so why should they suffer for
another one of our >attempts to un-successfully "play god"?

Well said.

But one must differentiate between a particular pit bull (who may well be
innocent until proven guilty, being already born and deserving, like a baby
human, of many rights and duties of care as a member of civil society) and
the breed as a whole.

Humans are adept at manipulating things to accomplish their own ends, but
when disaster strikes >as inevitably it will

Inevitably?

DG

Here, here!
Leilani

Starchild <sfdreamer@...> wrote:
Mike and David,

Of course I am also a vegetarian, and I'm rather surprised to hear
that people in the local vegetarian community favor breed-specific
legislation regulating pit bulls. Do they believe that individual
rights exist only for humans, and that when it comes to animals, it's
OK to brand entire groups as dangerous?

I do agree that sentient beings have the right not to be intentionally
brought into the world with genetic defects, and I would consider a
predisposition toward violence to be such a defect. Once such an animal
is in the world, however, do we assume that he or she cannot exist
without engaging in inappropriate violence? For all the pit bull
incidents that there are, I assume they still represent a small
percentage of the pit bulls that are out there. So most pit bulls are
behaving responsibly -- whether you want to give the credit to them or
simply to their human companions.

Put the average human male in a certain situation, and there is a fair
chance that *he* will react in a violent and irresponsible manner. For
example, arrange for him to walk into to his bedroom and find his life
partner in bed with another man. Does this mean that men are dangerous
animals who need to be controlled just by virtue of being who they are?
Many statists think so.

Dogs may not be able to think rationally as humans can, but they are
capable of restraint, and of learning to control their violent
tendencies. As with humans, some individuals do not have strong violent
tendencies to begin with. And some humans have been known to make
statements like, "A man who is friendly and docile when he finds his
wife with another man is not a real man." And the capacity to think
rationally obviously does not stop many humans from committing violent,
irrational acts, while many dogs do succeed in avoiding such acts
despite lacking the capacity for rational thought. So it makes little
sense to me to use that capacity as the standard by which a human or
non-human animal is judged to be worthy of having individual rights and
not prima facie declared unacceptably dangerous to polite society.

Yours in liberty,
<<< Starchild >>>

P.S. - See also the response below from a libertarian on another list:

-I know most of this list knows that I serve two incredibly wonderful
retired racing injury adoptee Greyhounds. What this list may not know
is that a dear friend of mine owns AKC Triquetra Whippets, my mom's
kennel was AKC Never Complain Dalmatians, and I have had several other
friends who are or were breeders. So I've had some pretty wide
exposure to the canine world.

There is no such thing as a dangerous breed.

When I first adopted Blue (D.J.'s BlueBird)-- I was astonished to find
out that I had supposedly adopted a "vicious" dog. Apparently because
racing dogs wear a muzzle when racing (which is not because they are
prone to fighting, it is mostly to help the camera during photo
finishes) people think Greyhounds are vicious. Al contraire. John has
done some pretty outrageous things to Blue without harm. They are
definitely pretty sensitive and intelligent sweethearts.

I have also met a Doberman named Cara who was the biggest marshmallow
you can think of (oh, yeah, soooo dangerous. Would walk up to you and
put her head up so her jaw was resting on top of your leg and beg for
attention) perfectly normal pit bull terriers, etc.

I've also seen psychotic Italian Greyhounds, brainless Doxies, and
badly treated Greyhounds (sadly enough). The difference always comes
back to two things. First, good, responsible breeding always produces a
better dog. Second, good responsible training by the owner makes a
tremendous difference.

There are no dangerous breeds. There are only badly bred dogs and badly
trained dogs. (and of course, those that are abused or trained to fight)
Lidia Seebeck
lidia@...

Much of the problem revolves around drug prohibition. In a market
removed from the protection of law,violence or the immenent threat of
violence is an every day tool of business. Violent pot bulls are
therfore prized. Corellary illegal activities are also incorporated
into the business culture, including pit bull fighting. In many areas
where the business is well entrenched law enforcement is completely
absent. thus any ban would have minimal effect on the problem.The only
way to make a significant impact on the problem is to normalize the
drug trade and bring into a market regulated under a system of law.
Outright legalization is preferred by libertarians. But even a system
of tightly controlled regulation may be preferable to the current
outright ban of popular recreational drugs. Under the present ban, the
drug trade flourishes amidst ever escalating violence.

When I lived in Arkansas I visited a tiger and lion rescue farm in the
ozarks. They had over a hundred of the very large cats. A few came
from old circuses, but half of the remainder came from drug dealers,
and the other half from Cops who tried to raise cubs taken from
dealers. A small object lesson in how the entire system is at risk.
the poor pits are just another in a long list of victims of our
present policy towards the trade in mind altering substances.