RE: [lpsf-discuss] Ten Commandments, now this ....

Thanks Steve,

You are right. There is severe judgment in both the Old Testament and
New Testament (Christian testament to some). The judgments often
described in the Old Testament are often sanctions implemented by human
beings. The sanctions suggested in these New Testament quotes refer to
the fire and brimstone that awaits those who do not accept that G_d is
Love. As a Christian, we go further and believe that we can only be
saved by accepting Jesus as our Savior. The New Testament is very clear.
There IS SEVERE PUNISHMENT AWAITING THOSE WHO DO NOT ACCEPT JESUS AS
YOUR SAVIOR. Once again, what this means is that we are to take the
message of Jesus to heart.

We do have a choice however. But the choice is not "walk the tightrope
of life without the lifeline of Jesus but if you fall, you will be
lifted from certain death by the hand of G_d despite your disobedience."
The message is this, "walk the tightrope of life without the lifeline of
Jesus, something we have been told time and time again is not a wise
decision, but if we make that choice and when we fall which we will
certainly do eventually in this state of denial, we will be crushed in
pain, suffering and death."

Is G_d cruel and not worthy of our Love if the Lord makes it clear to us
time and time again what is expected and that we are told time and time
again that the child of G_d is the ONLY path to our salvation, yet we
chose to disobey? Or are those who disobey just silly self-destructive
individuals who have chosen their own fate? You be the judge.

The god of godless communists and statists of all sorts is one that
promises all gain for everyone with no or hardly any pain. The G_d of
Christians promises that gain comes ONLY through pain. The fire and
brimstone referred to below is truly what awaits those who do not take
the word of the Lord to heart. Read 'em and weep. This is not the pain
and suffering provided by healthy human existence. This is the paid and
suffering one experiences when they distance themselves from G_d. What
we are being told is that it is an extremely terrible experience and I
believe it.

Of course there are many chapters referring to the joys of accepting the
word of G_d too. But let's be clear, there is some real judgment going
on here. Once again, as humans, we are not the judges. We are only here
to love each other and serve the Lord and make good choices. G_d is
doing the judging. We are being clearly told that the penalties for
violation are severe and the rewards for obedience are exhilarating. The
choice is ours. I find that message extremely clear and ultimately fair.

Thanks for bringing this to the attention of the list. By the way Steve,
I am very pleased that you take this subject so seriously. It shows that
you are really thinking about it. You might not be aware that your
skepticism closely resembles that of St. Augustine. He used to hate
Christians and even regularly stood outside churches and hurled insults
at them as they left the Mass. But later he had a conversion experience
and became a great saint.

It may sound strange, but the Lord loves this kind of person. It is said
"Be thou either hot or cold. But if thou art lukewarm, I shall vomit
thee from my mouth.". The Lord loves a skeptic. The Lord hates those who
chose to live an unexamined life. I consider you among the former.

Peace be with you.

Michael Denny

Mike Denny wrote:

The judgments often described in the Old Testament are often sanctions
implemented by human beings.

The god of the Torah promotes or demands extravagant worship, dietary
taboos, animal sacrifice, repressive sexual codes, human mutilation,
monarchy, subjugation of women, slavery, human sacrifice [Lev 27:29, Jud
11:30-39, cf. Heb 11:17, Jam 2:21], and mass murder of even infants [Gen
6:7, 7:21, Ex 11:5, 12:29, 1 Sam 15:3, cf. Heb 11:7,28]. In the gospels
Jesus affirms the Torah [Mt 5:18, Jn 10:35], endorses the murderous flood of
Noah [Mt 24:38, Lk 17:27], and promises sinners not a thousand years'
unrelenting torture, nor a million or a billion, but an eternity of
excruciating torture by fire [Mk 9:43, Mt 18:8, 25:41, 25:46]. It is
implausible that a competent and benevolent deity would in his revelation
allow the endorsement of such heinous crimes and evil policies.

Is G_d cruel and not worthy of our Love if the Lord makes it clear to us
time and time again what is expected

The god(s) of Abraham did not effect a competent revelation of what is
expected concerning salvation, hell, divorce, circumcision, or diet, leading
to millennia of infamous disputes among those who believe that the creator
of 100 billion galaxies was so intensely interested in ancient Palestine and
the fertility problems of a nomad from Mesopotamia.

Of course there are many chapters referring to the joys of accepting the
word of G_d too.

Actually, they myths about Heaven are conveniently vague -- which is the
only way they can hope to obfuscate their absurdity. For a series of
questions that tease out this absurdity, see
http://humanknowledge.net/Philosophy/Metaphysics/Theology/TheistQuestions.ht
m#Heaven.

The Lord loves a skeptic. The Lord hates those who chose to live an
unexamined life.

If the New Testament has any kind words for human rationality, I'd love to
see them cited. Examples denigrating human rationality abound; I append some
below.

For a summary of the arguments against Christianity, see
http://humanknowledge.net/Philosophy/Metaphysics/Theology/Christianity.html.

For a bibliography of the best arguments for and against theism and
Christianity, see
http://humanknowledge.net/Philosophy/Metaphysics/Theology/ChristianityIndex.
html.

P.S. If your deity is truly worried about whether you use ASCII 95 vs. ASCII
111 for the middle letter of the word 'God', you might consider upgrading to
a deity with a little more poise and self-esteem. :slight_smile:

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