RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Sheehan

Dear Derek;

Okay so no more extrapolation on the "Sayings Of Derek". NOW - how
about that challenge???

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Derek Jensen <derekj72@g...>
wrote:

Ron:

I didn't espouse anything. I just remarked that that was how I'm
wired. Be careful not to extrapolate.

> Dear Derek;
>
> Since you espouse America First then ideology how would you

answer

> this question?
>
> What will a "Victory in Iraq" mean for America and Americans?
>
> Cheney was asked this by a Marine when he was there a week or so

ago

> and Cheney dodged the answer.
>
> Derek - You are given complete freedom to define the

words "Victory

> in Iraq". Then provide the answer to the question based on your
> definition of "Victory In Iraq".
>
> Be careful of how you define "Victory in Iraq" keeping in mind

the

> PR types who dreamed up the banner " Mission Accomplished" for

Bush.

>
> On May 1 that'll be 3 years ago - 2,200 KIA's - 15,000 wounded

half

> (!!!) of whom have had to be medically discharged including some
> 1,000 with losses of arms and legs and several hundreds with

severe

> facial and cranial disfigurements - some 20,000 plus Iraqi
> collateral damage casualties and a couple hundred billion in
> additional national debt.
>
> For setting the stage I include this url for an article title:

Ron

> Kovic: The Forgotten Wounded of Iraq - and what it meant to him

to

> be only wounded. It should be required reading of every armchair
> general in the Bush administration.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20060119/cm_huffpost/014056
>
> Enjoy the challenge!!!!!
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
> --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Derek Jensen <derekj72@g...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Starchild:
> >
> > The plotters who tried to assassinate Hitler were indeed

traitors

> to
> > the Third Reich, but heroes nonetheless.
> >
> > Here's the thing which I have concluded through these recent
> debates:
> > At my core, I am an American first and a libertarian second.

My

> > patriotism comes before my ideology. So, my first reaction

toward

> > events tends to be that which advances American interests. This
> > probably has to do in part with growing up in a lower middle

class

> > town during the Reagan era (I was 8 when he beat Carter) I

would

> > surmise that most of the people on this board place ideology

over

> > loyalty to one's country.
> >
> > -Derek
> >
> > > Derek,
> > >
> > > Doesn't it depend on who the enemy is, and on the

nature

> of the
> > > government being "betrayed?" For instance, the plotters who
> tried to
> > > assassinate Adolf Hitler shouldn't have been punished for
> treason,
> > > should they?
> > >
> > > Or what if someone started a libertarian country

called

> Oceania, the
> > > U.S. government (USgov) reacted hostilely toward it, and an
> Oceanian
> > > sympathizer in the U.S. military gave USgov battle plans to

the

> > > Oceanian government, or a married libertarian couple gave the
> Oceanians
> > > classified USgov information on building nuclear weapons?

Should

> > > American libertarians regard such individuals as traitors, or
> heros?
> > > I'd say the latter.
> > >
> > > Yours in liberty,
> > > <<< starchild >>>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Starchild:
> > > >
> > > > This will take some time to answer properly.
> > > >
> > > > I do think that for instance, the Rosenbergs committed

treason.

> > > > Because I don't believe a state has the moral authority to
> execute
> > > > someone,(although I think victims' families do in the case

of

> a 1st
> > > > degree capital crime) I would support life in prison for
> similar acts
> > > > to what the Rosenbergs did.
> > > >
> > > > There may be other treasonous circumstance, but this is a

very

> > > > complicated topic so I need a few days to think it through.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe also a soldier who gives battle plans to the enemy.
> > > >
> > > > There may be others. Give me some time.
> > > >
> > > > > Derek,
> > > > >
> > > > > So you believe that laws against "treason" should be
> repealed?
> > > > If not,
> > > > > what acts should legally be considered "treason" and

remain

> against
> > > > the
> > > > > law, and how would you justify such laws in libertarian
> terms?
> > > > >
> > > > > Yours in liberty,
> > > > > <<< starchild >>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Allen:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't think what I said implies that freedom of

speech

> is at all
> > > > > > somehow granted by the government.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I believe one really does have a responsibility to act
> differently
> > > > > > when one is outside the USA. When one is abroad, one

is a

> > > > > > representative of the USA as a whole and should act

that

> way. And,
> > > > > > certain limits should be respected by civilized people
> even with
> > > > the
> > > > > > USA -- such as not burning American flags. I would not
> support
> > > > > > government restrictions on any of these things though.

It

> seems
> > > > that
> > > > > > some people on this board are making the mistake of
> confusing
> > > > > > positions I espouse with supporting government
> restrictions of the
> > > > > > same.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > People should be free to make asses of themselves even
> overseas,
> > > > just
> > > > > > as Cindy Sheehan is proving over and over.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes I consider Sheehan a traitor and yes I think her
> actions are
> > > > > > probably giving encouragement and relief to the enemy

and

> causing
> > > > many
> > > > > > more Casey Sheehans to be killed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All that said, I certainly agree that it is not per se
> unpatriotic
> > > > to
> > > > > > oppose and protest a war.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Derek
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > This presumption, that a citizen of the United States
> may speak
> > > > > > > freely within the confines of the United States, but

not

> outside
> > > > > > > them, implies rather strongly that "freedom of

speech",

> whatever
> > > > > > > that is, is _granted_ by the _Government_ of the

United

> States,
> > > > and
> > > > > > > somehow disappears if one leaves the country.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That diverges radically from my understanding

of "rights"

> > > > (whatever
> > > > > > > those are), which I had heretofore presumed

originated

> with the
> > > > > > > _individual_, with the First Amendment of the US
> Constitution
> > > > only
> > > > > > > attempting to guarantee that the US government would

not

> infringe
> > > > > > > upon the particular one of "freedom of speech".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ms. Sheehan is a well-intentioned woman whose son has
> been
> > > > killed,
> > > > > > > in a cause which she considers wrong, and she is

trying

> to make
> > > > his
> > > > > > > death matter. Let her talk. Wrong or right, her words
> will
> > > > have to
> > > > > > > survive in the marketplace of ideas.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Just to reveal my own personal bias, if her
> presentations at all
> > > > > > > undermine the massive propaganda machinery of the

whole

> US
> > > > > > > government, I say good for her.]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > Allen Rice
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Derek Jensen
> <derekj72@g...>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Michael:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm glad you asked the question you did. I'm

horrified

> that I
> > > > may
> > > > > > > > have given the impression you apparently got. I

should

> have
> > > > been
> > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > clear.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For me, the key factor is whether it's done on
> America's
> > > > shores or
> > > > > > > > not. To me there is a HUGE difference between
> criticizing a
> > > > war
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > one believes to be unjust, and taking such

criticism

> overseas,
> > > > as
> > > > > > > > Sheehan has done. I have near-unlimited tolerance

for

> the
> > > > former,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > very very little for the latter. When she was doing
> her thing
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > Crawford, she was just another annoying war

protestor.

> Seeing
> > > > her
> > > > > > > > appear outside the US Embassy in Madrid, and

alongside

> Hugo
> > > > Chavez
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > Caracas is another matter entirely, and to me,

comes

> very very
> > > > > > > close
> > > > > > > > to giving encouragement to America's enemies - the
> same enemies
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > killed her son. How long until she shows up in
> Havana? - note,
> > > > > > > I'm in
> > > > > > > > favor of greatly relaxing the embargo against Cuba,
> since it
> > > > should
> > > > > > > > hasten the arrival of the day when Cubans do to

Castro

> what the
> > > > > > > > Romanians did to Ceauºescu.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No, I absolutely do not believe all wars are
> justified. For
> > > > > > > instance,
> > > > > > > > I believe we should not have been involved in the
> Bosnian
> > > > conflict,
> > > > > > > > and we should not be involved in Sudan or the Ivory
> Coast,
> > > > because
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > don't believe American interests were or are at

stake.

> > > > Whereas in
> > > > > > > > Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, and North Korea I believe
> American
> > > > > > > interests
> > > > > > > > are at stake.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Consider Vietnam. While I would have disagreed with
> all the
> > > > > > > > protestors trying to end that conflict, I don't
> necessarily
> > > > > > > consider
> > > > > > > > any of them unpatriotic for trying to end it, as I
> admit there
> > > > were
> > > > > > > > some valid viewpoints. However, working within the

US

> to raise
> > > > > > > > consciousness about why one believes a war to be
> unjust is
> > > > entirely
> > > > > > > > different from what for instance, Jane Fonda did.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -Derek
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > View my blog at http://derekj72.blogspot.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > <image.tiff>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > > > >
> > > > > > + Visit your group "lpsf-discuss" on the web.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > > > lpsf-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

Terms

> of
> > > > Service.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > <image.tiff>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > View my blog at http://derekj72.blogspot.com
> > > >
> > > <image.tiff>
> > > >
> > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > >
> > > > + Visit your group "lpsf-discuss" on the web.
> > > >
> > > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > lpsf-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

Terms