RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Prop 73 - unlike Franklin

Well Ron...you already know I am an anarchist. And you know me well
enough to appreciate I feel nothing's wrong with sex (in marriage),
drugs (aside from our learning experiences) and rock and roll (love it).
Aside from these personal views, government has nothing to say about any
of it.

But you already know...certainly.

Mike

Mike,

  I hope you're not saying there's something wrong with sex *outside* marriage! Admittedly marital sex is clearly something special, given how much difficulty many married people seem to have engaging in it, let alone making it hot. But the relative rarity and mediocrity of sex within marriage might lead a cynical person to conclude that groups which frown on sex outside of marriage (e.g. the Catholic Church) have something against sex in general, although the frequency with which Catholic priests seem to be involved in sexual liaisons is a potent counter-argument! Anyway, although I'm not currently married myself, I do often help married people have hotter and more enjoyable sex than they would probably be getting otherwise. :wink:

Yours in liberty,
        <<< Starchild >>>

Well Ron…you already know I am an anarchist. And you know me well enough to appreciate I feel nothing’s wrong with sex (in marriage), drugs (aside from our learning experiences) and rock and roll (love it). Aside from these personal views, government has nothing to say about any of it.

But you already know…certainly.

Mike

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From:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf OfRon Getty
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 11:27 PM
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Prop 73 - unlike Franklin

Dear Mike;

I certainly hope it doesn't drive you to think about joining one of those Radical Anarchist groups I keep hearing so much about you know like those Libertarians that party of : sex - drugs - rock and roll.

Ron Getty

SF Libertarian

Mike Denny <mike@...> wrote:

Oh….and Starchild,

Unlike Franklin, in case you were worried, this disagreement isn’t going to drive me to the Democrats…or the Republicans.

Mike

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From:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf OfMike Denny
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 11:04 PM
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Prop 73

You are right about the language Starchild. I agree the LPC’s position is correct. While I respect your decision to vote against it, as a parent I will chose to go the other direction. I trust we can feel good about our Libertarian relationship despite our differences.

Mike

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From:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf OfStarchild
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 10:59 PM
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Prop 73

Mike,

I'm not sure it's true that Proposition 73 takes no position on the morality of abortion. I recall seeing it mentioned in an opinion piece that the language of Prop. 73 refers to "the unborn child." The op-ed writer(s) argued that this language is inflammatory and unnecessary to the alleged purpose of the initiative, and that it shows an intent by the measure's sponsors to insert wording into the law that could in the future undermine a woman's legal right to choose abortion. While there are some types of abortions I *would* like to see banned, I do not want to see a blanket prohibition of the kind that could be supported by vague references to unborn children.

I do agree with you that we are presented with imperfect choices here. If it is currently illegal to inform the parents of a dependent minor that she is seeking an abortion on the basis of "privacy," as I believe you indicated the CA Supreme Court has ruled, then the status quo in my opinion is flawed and legislation is needed. However I also find Morey's comment about the responsibility of service providers persuasive, among other arguments, and am not convinced that Prop. 73 as written would provide a fairer solution. On the whole it is a grey enough area that I think the LPC was probably correct to take no position, but at this point I expect to vote against the measure myself.

Yours in liberty,

<<< Starchild >>>

Sorry Morey...you are right in every way except when the child is a

minor. There are some contracts a minor cannot make. The law and courts

have held this view for longer than anyone can say.

As a decision about having an abortion is not likely about life or death

(meaning one will die if a decision is made one way as opposed to the

other) the decision is very appropriately left to the parents.

Regardless of whether one thinks abortion is good or bad, this decision

is for parents and children to make together. It is not up to an outside

entity to make. Any outside interference especially that backed by the

state is illegal. Prop 73 appropriately asserts the rights of parents

although not perfectly from a Libertarian perspective.

Prop 73 makes no obvious comment on whether abortion is good or evil.

The only place one could challenge this view is where it removes the

right of parents to force their child to have an abortion. While I would

never personally require an objecting minor to one, I think the measure

would be better legislation if this section was changed to allow parents

to insist the child have one.

From a political perspective, whether one supports abortion or not,

government should not have the right to intervene on behalf of a minor

over the interests of their parents because of some doctrine of

"privacy".

Mike

From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of Morey Straus

Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 9:58 PM

To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Prop 73, or Libertarianism 101

The issue is not that complicated. As the parent, *you* have bottom

line responsibility for every action your child makes. You decide

whether they go outside, whether they have money, and whether or not

to let them out of your sight at all. If your child betrays your

trust, for example, by skipping school and going to the clinic or

having sex, then it is due to your failure as a parent. You have

*all* of the control. The buck stops with YOU.

It is not my responsibility as a vendor or service provider to verify

the authenticity of ID cards or to refuse service to *anyone* able to

pay. Prop 73 takes a big dump on free trade and forces sellers to

join you in parenting.

-Morey

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