RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage

To be honest....after years of passionate activism...I don't care any
more. It seems as productive as swimming against the tide. You can't
beat it so the best you can do is hold on and take care until the tide
turns. My way of holding on and taking care is to move one part of my
business out of SF and another part out of the state. I'm planning to
move my residence out of California. That's how I'm going to create more
freedom for myself. Politics seems to be a waste of time right now.

When the tide turns in the right direction, then I'll start swimming
with it again. Until then, I'm just clinging to this rock and keeping my
strength up for another day.

Mike

Hi Mike D.,

Yours is not an unusual approach: Live the life of resistance and
liberty yourself, regardless of what others do or not do (Bart feels
that way too. You should have seen him at the airport going to
Portland, refusing to take his shoes off!! I was very proud of him.)

He also serves who stands and waits.

Marcy

To be honest....after years of passionate activism...I don't care

any

more. It seems as productive as swimming against the tide. You can't
beat it so the best you can do is hold on and take care until the

tide

turns. My way of holding on and taking care is to move one part of

my

business out of SF and another part out of the state. I'm planning

to

move my residence out of California. That's how I'm going to create

more

freedom for myself. Politics seems to be a waste of time right now.

When the tide turns in the right direction, then I'll start swimming
with it again. Until then, I'm just clinging to this rock and

keeping my

strength up for another day.

Mike

________________________________

From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-

discuss@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of dredelstein@...
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 1:06 PM
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage

Mike D.,

I don't understand.

How would "ignoring and laughing at it" devolve Govt? Do you

sincerely

believe a politician accruing power would realize how "silly" he is

and

just quit?

You may try to ignore Govt, but the iron fist of the state with its

guns

and prisons does not ignore you.

But perhaps you were only adding some levity to the discussion. If

so,

I'm still interested in your response to my original question.

Best, Michael

From: Mike Denny <mailto:mike@…>

To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:15 AM

Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage

By ignoring and laughing at it until it realizes just how silly it

is.

Mike

________________________________

From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-

discuss@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of dredelstein@...
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 10:38 AM
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage

Mike,

Interesting article, thanks.

I have one question regarding how this applies to us: If our ideas

don't

infiltrate and become part of the state, how do we devolve state

power

and create an anarcho-libertarian society?

Best, Michael

From: Mike Denny <mailto:mike@…>

To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 10:47 PM

Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage

A good article here. As being a State is a recipe for disaster, it

may

seem that anyone who expects to be the state can expect to fail.

That's

the reason the LP is failing right along side the Dems and Repubs.

Unlike the beginning of the LP, the party is attracting people who
actually think obtaining state power is a good thing. That's a bad

thing

for the LP.

What we are seeing is that attachment to the state and its apparatus
will lose for Liberty. Avoiding the state and its apparatus will

win for

Liberty.

Ron Paul has done as good a job as possible within the context of
political power. Anyone locally who wants to lobby for his

positions and

participate in that side of activism even as a Republican will have

my

full support.

For the rest of us...with apologies to Joanie Mitchell..."We don't

need

some piece of paper from the" LP "to keep us tried and true" to

Liberty.

Mike

To Be or Not To Be a State?

by William S. Lind <mailto:dkern@…>
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/lind/lind100.html##>
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/lind/lind100.html##>
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/lind/lind100.html##>

When Hamas won the Palestinian elections, a highly successful Fourth
Generation entity became a state. No doubt that was one of Hamas's
highest aspirations. But by becoming a state, it became far more
vulnerable to other states than it was as a non-state entity. How

Hamas

deals with this problem may say a great deal about the future of

Fourth

Generation war.

Hamas may have presumed that once it won a free election, other

states,

including the United States and Israel, would have to recognize its
legitimacy. Great expectations are seldom fulfilled in the amoral

world

of international politics. When the Washington Establishment calls

for

"free elections," what it means is elections that elect the people

it

wants to deal with. Hamas does not fall into that category.

Washington

therefore greeted Hamas's electoral victory with a full-court press

to

destroy the new Hamas leadership of the Palestinian Authority,

a "state"

that bears a state's burdens with none of a state's assets. Both
Machiavelli and Metternich were no doubt delighted by this act of
Wilsonian hypocrisy, a variety that often exceeds their own and

does so

with a straight face, an act they could never quite master, being
gentlemen.

In cooperation with Israel (can Washington now do anything except in
cooperation with Israel?) the U.S. imposed a starvation blockade on

the

Palestinian territories. Instead of British armored cruisers, the
blockaders this time are U.S. banking laws, plus Israeli-

withholding of

Palestinian tax receipts. As the government of a quasi-state, Hamas
found itself with no money. PA employees went unpaid and PA

services,

such as they were, largely collapsed. The burden, as always, fell on
average Palestinians.

In the past week, Israel has upped the ante by threatening a full-

scale

military attack on Gaza. The Israelis had already been escalating
quietly: a raid here, a missile there, artillery shells somewhere

else.

With Palestinian civilians dying, Hamas had to respond. It did so

with a

raid on an Israeli army post, a legitimate military target.

(Attacks on

military targets are not "terrorism.") The well-planned and

brilliantly

conducted raid (so well done as to suggest Hezbollah assistance)

killed

two Israeli soldiers and captured one.

Normally, that captured Israeli would be a Hamas asset. But now that
Hamas is a state, it has discovered Cpl. Gilad Shalit is a major
liability. Israel is refusing all deals for his return. If Hamas

returns

him without a deal, it will be humiliated. If it continues to hold

him,

Israel will up the military pressure; it is already destroying PA
targets such as government offices and arresting PA cabinet

members. If

it kills him, the Israeli public will back whatever revenge strikes

the

Israeli military wants. Hamas is now far more targetable than it

was as

a non-state entity, but is no better able to defend itself or

Palestine

than it was as Fourth Generation force. 4GW forces are generally

unable

to defend territory or fixed targets against state armed forces, but
they have no reason to do so. Now, as a quasi-state, Hamas must do

so or

appear to be defeated.

Does the sign really say "No Exit" for Hamas? It may, so long as

Hamas

remains a state, or has aspirations to be one. Washington's and Tel
Aviv's obvious goal is to push the Hamas government to the point

where

it must choose between a humanitarian catastrophe for the

Palestinian

people and resignation, with the return of corrupt and compliant

Fatah

to power. Either way, Hamas will have suffered an enormous defeat,

to

the point where it is unlikely to be a serious alternative ever

again.

There is, however, another way out for Hamas. It can call and raise
Washington's and Tel Aviv's bets. How? By voting to dissolve the
Palestinian Authority. Ending the PA would dump the Palestinian
territories and their inhabitants right back in Israel's lap. Under
international law, as the occupying power, Israel would be

responsible

for everything in the territories: security, human services,

utilities

and infrastructure, the economy, the whole megillah (oy!). Israel

could

try to restore the PA in cooperation with Fatah, but if Fatah joined
Israel in doing so, it would destroy what legitimacy it has left.

Hamas

could meanwhile return to a 4GW war against Israel, unencumbered

with

the dubious assets of a state, and with lots more targets as Israel
attempted to run the Palestinian Territories itself.

Hamas faces what may be a defining moment, not only for itself but

for

Fourth Generation entities elsewhere. Does it want the trappings of

a

state so much that it will render itself targetable as a state, or

can

it see through the glitter of being "cabinet ministers" and the

like and

go instead for substance by retaining non-state status? To be or

not to

be a state, that is the question - for Hamas and soon enough for

other

4GW entities as well.

July 6, 2006

William Lind [send him mail <mailto:dkern@…> ] is
Director of the Center for Cultural Conservatism at the Free

Congress

Foundation. The views expressed in this article are those of Mr.

Lind,

writing in his personal capacity.

Copyright (c) 2006 William S. Lind

From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-

discuss@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of Amarcy D. Berry
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 10:16 PM
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage

Morphing into "San Francisco Libertarians" is just fine, if the

intent is to be an orginization of like-minded individuals doing

whatever they decide to do (debate, activism, publishing LTE's and

other writings, for example). As long as the organization does not

take in any money, there would be no need to register with any

government agency. Or if money is desired, maybe an educational non-

profit status could be sought from the IRS. Paralell to that

organization, an LPSF would continue as a political party

affiliated

with the LPCA, if there is enough interest.

Another alternative, of course, would be a brand new political

party

with another name (can't use "Libertarian").

Marcy

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Morey Straus"

<morey.straus@> wrote:

>

> Maybe it's time to revisit Allen Rice's idea of morphing into

the "San

> Francisco Libertarians" as an unaffiliated group.

>

>

> >

> > A worthwhile question, Justin. A number of people are

already

pointing

> > out the possibility of state platforms. In our case, that

doesn't help,

> > because Starr was the one who moved to delete all the remaining

planks.

> > There's no reason I know of why we couldn't go ahead and

develop

a local

> > platform, though I confess my own enthusiasm is limited by

wanting to

> > distance myself from the national and state parties.

> >

> > ------------------------------

> > *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-

discuss@...m]

> > *On Behalf Of *Justin T. Sampson

> > *Sent:* Thursday, July 06, 2006 12:41 PM

> >

> > *To:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com

> > *Subject:* Re: [lpsf-discuss] Convention Carnage

> >

> > Howdy,

> >

> > Would there be any interest in a local LPSF Platform? We have

our

> > own unique mix of anarchist, minarchist, and reformist members

> > with many valued contributions over the years. Such a Platform

> > could cover specific local issues as well as national and global

> > issues. Having a face-to-face dialogue may be worthwhile.

> >

> > Cheers,

> > Justin

> >

> >

> > > The takeover of the LP by conservatives that I have been

> > > predicting for 10 years (even if the LP News has declined to

> > > publish my letters and articles warning about that) has

finally

> > > occurred. Owing to a fluke of circumstances, it wasn't

complete;

> > > we are left with a bizarre fragment of a platform which

pleases

> > > no one, but that will soon be eliminated as well. I see no

> > > chance that anything like the original platform will ever be

> > > restored, just because conservatives already outnumber

> > > libertarians in the Party, and there are vastly more of them

> > > potentially to be recruited. What I haven't figured out is why

> > > they want to take over the LP and change it, rather than

working

> > > with a more conservative party to start with, like the

> > > Constitution Party. Can anyone clue me in?

> > >

> > > Starchild is right to make a conceptual distinction between

> > > conservatism and reformism, but it is no accident that the two

> > > groups are so largely overlapping. Reformism is the embodiment

> > > of the conservative spirit or style. Temperamentally,

> > > conservatives are non-boat-rockers; they fear large, sudden

> > > changes, even if they are in the right direction. However,

while

> > > we see governments growing incrementally almost everywhere, it

> > > is hard to find examples of governments gradually shrinking.

> > > Ignorance and denial pretty much guarantee that government

power

> > > will increase until it reaches a tipping point where most

> > > citizens begin to feel seriously oppressed; then there will be

> > > either a revolution or a collapse, depending on the sympathies

> > > of the enforcing agents. I see no reason to expect the U.S. to

> > > depart from this pattern. Thus there will come a time--it will

> > > appear as sudden--when the general population is angrily

> > > demanding the abolition of the IRS--and the Libertarian Party,

> > > behind the curve, is calling, with idiotic and grotesque

> > > irrelevance, for a 10% tax cut.

> > >

> > > I know that some reformers regard the Statement of Principles

as

> > > an adequate guide for candidates in preparing their own

campaign

> > > platforms. But the generalities of the Statement of Principles

> > > are as subject to interpretation as the Bible; terms like

> > > freedom and individual rights pervade the rhetoric of

Democrats

> > > and Republicans. The proud distinction of the LP was in

spelling

> > > out the specific implications of these principles for various

> > > concrete issues. The Statement of Principles might suffice if

> > > our members were libertarian; it won't, given that most of

them

> > > are not. But, like the Constitution, it offers no protection

if

A generous sentiment, Marcy, though I'm not sure "standing and waiting"
does justice to Michael. There are ways of furthering liberty, for all
of us and not just ourselves, than activism within the Libertarian
Party.

When Michael leaves SF, incidentally, we'll need to pick up the $40 or
so that he has been paying for years for our phone.

Hi Mike A.,

The passage from Pasternak's Dr. Zhivago comes to my mind, "and who
does more for a nation, the one who makes a fuss about it or the one
who, without thinking of it, raises it to universality by the beauty
and greatness of his actions." You are entirely right, there are a
great many ways to further liberty than activism within the LP!!!

And, yes, $40 a month for voice mail, hundreds of dollars for Public
Access tapes, contributions when something comes up....

Marcy

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Acree, Michael" <acreem@...>
wrote:

A generous sentiment, Marcy, though I'm not sure "standing and

waiting"

does justice to Michael. There are ways of furthering liberty, for

all

of us and not just ourselves, than activism within the Libertarian
Party.

When Michael leaves SF, incidentally, we'll need to pick up the $40

or

so that he has been paying for years for our phone.

________________________________

From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-

discuss@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of Amarcy D. Berry
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:22 PM
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage

Hi Mike D.,

Yours is not an unusual approach: Live the life of resistance and
liberty yourself, regardless of what others do or not do (Bart

feels

that way too. You should have seen him at the airport going to
Portland, refusing to take his shoes off!! I was very proud of him.)

He also serves who stands and waits.

Marcy

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:lpsf-discuss%40yahoogroups.com> , "Mike Denny" <mike@>

wrote:

>
> To be honest....after years of passionate activism...I don't care
any
> more. It seems as productive as swimming against the tide. You

can't

> beat it so the best you can do is hold on and take care until the
tide
> turns. My way of holding on and taking care is to move one part

of

my
> business out of SF and another part out of the state. I'm

planning

to
> move my residence out of California. That's how I'm going to

create

more
> freedom for myself. Politics seems to be a waste of time right

now.

>
>
>
> When the tide turns in the right direction, then I'll start

swimming

> with it again. Until then, I'm just clinging to this rock and
keeping my
> strength up for another day.
>
>
>
> Mike
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:lpsf-discuss%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lpsf-
discuss@yahoogroups.com <mailto:discuss%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> On Behalf Of dredelstein@
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 1:06 PM
> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:lpsf-discuss%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage
>
>
>
> Mike D.,
>
>
>
> I don't understand.
>
>
>
> How would "ignoring and laughing at it" devolve Govt? Do you
sincerely
> believe a politician accruing power would realize how "silly" he

is

and
> just quit?
>
>
>
> You may try to ignore Govt, but the iron fist of the state with

its

guns
> and prisons does not ignore you.
>
>
>
> But perhaps you were only adding some levity to the discussion.

If

so,
> I'm still interested in your response to my original question.
>
>
> Best, Michael
>
>
>
>
> From: Mike Denny <mailto:mike@>
>
> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:lpsf-discuss%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:15 AM
>
> Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage
>
>
>
> By ignoring and laughing at it until it realizes just how silly

it

is.
>
>
>
> Mike
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:lpsf-discuss%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lpsf-
discuss@yahoogroups.com <mailto:discuss%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> On Behalf Of dredelstein@
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 10:38 AM
> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:lpsf-discuss%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage
>
>
>
> Mike,
>
>
>
> Interesting article, thanks.
>
>
>
> I have one question regarding how this applies to us: If our

ideas

don't
> infiltrate and become part of the state, how do we devolve state
power
> and create an anarcho-libertarian society?
>
>
> Best, Michael
>
>
>
>
> From: Mike Denny <mailto:mike@>
>
> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:lpsf-discuss%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 10:47 PM
>
> Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage
>
>
>
> A good article here. As being a State is a recipe for disaster,

it

may
> seem that anyone who expects to be the state can expect to fail.
That's
> the reason the LP is failing right along side the Dems and

Repubs.

>
>
>
> Unlike the beginning of the LP, the party is attracting people who
> actually think obtaining state power is a good thing. That's a

bad

thing
> for the LP.
>
>
>
> What we are seeing is that attachment to the state and its

apparatus

> will lose for Liberty. Avoiding the state and its apparatus will
win for
> Liberty.
>
>
>
> Ron Paul has done as good a job as possible within the context of
> political power. Anyone locally who wants to lobby for his
positions and
> participate in that side of activism even as a Republican will

have

my
> full support.
>
>
>
> For the rest of us...with apologies to Joanie Mitchell..."We

don't

need
> some piece of paper from the" LP "to keep us tried and true" to
Liberty.
>
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> To Be or Not To Be a State?
>
>
> by William S. Lind <mailto:dkern@>
> <http://www.lewrockwell.com/lind/lind100.html##
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/lind/lind100.html##> >
> <http://www.lewrockwell.com/lind/lind100.html##
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/lind/lind100.html##> >
> <http://www.lewrockwell.com/lind/lind100.html##
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/lind/lind100.html##> >
>
> When Hamas won the Palestinian elections, a highly successful

Fourth

> Generation entity became a state. No doubt that was one of Hamas's
> highest aspirations. But by becoming a state, it became far more
> vulnerable to other states than it was as a non-state entity. How
Hamas
> deals with this problem may say a great deal about the future of
Fourth
> Generation war.
>
> Hamas may have presumed that once it won a free election, other
states,
> including the United States and Israel, would have to recognize

its

> legitimacy. Great expectations are seldom fulfilled in the amoral
world
> of international politics. When the Washington Establishment

calls

for
> "free elections," what it means is elections that elect the

people

it
> wants to deal with. Hamas does not fall into that category.
Washington
> therefore greeted Hamas's electoral victory with a full-court

press

to
> destroy the new Hamas leadership of the Palestinian Authority,
a "state"
> that bears a state's burdens with none of a state's assets. Both
> Machiavelli and Metternich were no doubt delighted by this act of
> Wilsonian hypocrisy, a variety that often exceeds their own and
does so
> with a straight face, an act they could never quite master, being
> gentlemen.
>
> In cooperation with Israel (can Washington now do anything except

in

> cooperation with Israel?) the U.S. imposed a starvation blockade

on

the
> Palestinian territories. Instead of British armored cruisers, the
> blockaders this time are U.S. banking laws, plus Israeli-
withholding of
> Palestinian tax receipts. As the government of a quasi-state,

Hamas

> found itself with no money. PA employees went unpaid and PA
services,
> such as they were, largely collapsed. The burden, as always, fell

on

> average Palestinians.
>
> In the past week, Israel has upped the ante by threatening a full-
scale
> military attack on Gaza. The Israelis had already been escalating
> quietly: a raid here, a missile there, artillery shells somewhere
else.
> With Palestinian civilians dying, Hamas had to respond. It did so
with a
> raid on an Israeli army post, a legitimate military target.
(Attacks on
> military targets are not "terrorism.") The well-planned and
brilliantly
> conducted raid (so well done as to suggest Hezbollah assistance)
killed
> two Israeli soldiers and captured one.
>
> Normally, that captured Israeli would be a Hamas asset. But now

that

> Hamas is a state, it has discovered Cpl. Gilad Shalit is a major
> liability. Israel is refusing all deals for his return. If Hamas
returns
> him without a deal, it will be humiliated. If it continues to

hold

him,
> Israel will up the military pressure; it is already destroying PA
> targets such as government offices and arresting PA cabinet
members. If
> it kills him, the Israeli public will back whatever revenge

strikes

the
> Israeli military wants. Hamas is now far more targetable than it
was as
> a non-state entity, but is no better able to defend itself or
Palestine
> than it was as Fourth Generation force. 4GW forces are generally
unable
> to defend territory or fixed targets against state armed forces,

but

> they have no reason to do so. Now, as a quasi-state, Hamas must

do

so or
> appear to be defeated.
>
> Does the sign really say "No Exit" for Hamas? It may, so long as
Hamas
> remains a state, or has aspirations to be one. Washington's and

Tel

> Aviv's obvious goal is to push the Hamas government to the point
where
> it must choose between a humanitarian catastrophe for the
Palestinian
> people and resignation, with the return of corrupt and compliant
Fatah
> to power. Either way, Hamas will have suffered an enormous

defeat,

to
> the point where it is unlikely to be a serious alternative ever
again.
>
> There is, however, another way out for Hamas. It can call and

raise

> Washington's and Tel Aviv's bets. How? By voting to dissolve the
> Palestinian Authority. Ending the PA would dump the Palestinian
> territories and their inhabitants right back in Israel's lap.

Under

> international law, as the occupying power, Israel would be
responsible
> for everything in the territories: security, human services,
utilities
> and infrastructure, the economy, the whole megillah (oy!). Israel
could
> try to restore the PA in cooperation with Fatah, but if Fatah

joined

> Israel in doing so, it would destroy what legitimacy it has left.
Hamas
> could meanwhile return to a 4GW war against Israel, unencumbered
with
> the dubious assets of a state, and with lots more targets as

Israel

> attempted to run the Palestinian Territories itself.
>
> Hamas faces what may be a defining moment, not only for itself

but

for
> Fourth Generation entities elsewhere. Does it want the trappings

of

a
> state so much that it will render itself targetable as a state,

or

can
> it see through the glitter of being "cabinet ministers" and the
like and
> go instead for substance by retaining non-state status? To be or
not to
> be a state, that is the question - for Hamas and soon enough for
other
> 4GW entities as well.
>
> July 6, 2006
>
> William Lind [send him mail <mailto:dkern@> ] is
> Director of the Center for Cultural Conservatism at the Free
Congress
> Foundation. The views expressed in this article are those of Mr.
Lind,
> writing in his personal capacity.
>
> Copyright (c) 2006 William S. Lind
>
>
>
>
>
> From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:lpsf-discuss%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lpsf-
discuss@yahoogroups.com <mailto:discuss%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> On Behalf Of Amarcy D. Berry
> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 10:16 PM
> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:lpsf-discuss%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage
>
>
>
> Morphing into "San Francisco Libertarians" is just fine, if the
>
> intent is to be an orginization of like-minded individuals doing
>
> whatever they decide to do (debate, activism, publishing LTE's

and

>
> other writings, for example). As long as the organization does

not

>
> take in any money, there would be no need to register with any
>
> government agency. Or if money is desired, maybe an educational

non-

>
> profit status could be sought from the IRS. Paralell to that
>
> organization, an LPSF would continue as a political party
affiliated
>
> with the LPCA, if there is enough interest.
>
>
>
> Another alternative, of course, would be a brand new political
party
>
> with another name (can't use "Libertarian").
>
>
>
> Marcy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:lpsf-discuss%40yahoogroups.com> , "Morey Straus"
>
> <morey.straus@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Maybe it's time to revisit Allen Rice's idea of morphing into
>
> the "San
>
> > Francisco Libertarians" as an unaffiliated group.
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
> > >
>
> > > A worthwhile question, Justin. A number of people are
already
>
> pointing
>
> > > out the possibility of state platforms. In our case, that
>
> doesn't help,
>
> > > because Starr was the one who moved to delete all the

remaining

>
> planks.
>
> > > There's no reason I know of why we couldn't go ahead and
develop
>
> a local
>
> > > platform, though I confess my own enthusiasm is limited by
>
> wanting to
>
> > > distance myself from the national and state parties.
>
> > >
>
> > > ------------------------------
>
> > > *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:lpsf-discuss%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lpsf-
>
> discuss@yahoogroups.com <mailto:discuss%40yahoogroups.com> ]
>
> > > *On Behalf Of *Justin T. Sampson
>
> > > *Sent:* Thursday, July 06, 2006 12:41 PM
>
> > >
>
> > > *To:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:lpsf-discuss%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> > > *Subject:* Re: [lpsf-discuss] Convention Carnage
>
> > >
>
> > > Howdy,
>
> > >
>
> > > Would there be any interest in a local LPSF Platform? We have
our
>
> > > own unique mix of anarchist, minarchist, and reformist members
>
> > > with many valued contributions over the years. Such a Platform
>
> > > could cover specific local issues as well as national and

global

>
> > > issues. Having a face-to-face dialogue may be worthwhile.
>
> > >
>
> > > Cheers,
>
> > > Justin
>
> > >
>
>
> > >
>
> > > > The takeover of the LP by conservatives that I have been
>
> > > > predicting for 10 years (even if the LP News has declined to
>
> > > > publish my letters and articles warning about that) has
finally
>
> > > > occurred. Owing to a fluke of circumstances, it wasn't
complete;
>
> > > > we are left with a bizarre fragment of a platform which
pleases
>
> > > > no one, but that will soon be eliminated as well. I see no
>
> > > > chance that anything like the original platform will ever be
>
> > > > restored, just because conservatives already outnumber
>
> > > > libertarians in the Party, and there are vastly more of them
>
> > > > potentially to be recruited. What I haven't figured out is

why

>
> > > > they want to take over the LP and change it, rather than
working
>
> > > > with a more conservative party to start with, like the
>
> > > > Constitution Party. Can anyone clue me in?
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Starchild is right to make a conceptual distinction between
>
> > > > conservatism and reformism, but it is no accident that the

two

>
> > > > groups are so largely overlapping. Reformism is the

embodiment

>
> > > > of the conservative spirit or style. Temperamentally,
>
> > > > conservatives are non-boat-rockers; they fear large, sudden
>
> > > > changes, even if they are in the right direction. However,
while
>
> > > > we see governments growing incrementally almost everywhere,

it

>
> > > > is hard to find examples of governments gradually shrinking.
>
> > > > Ignorance and denial pretty much guarantee that government
power
>
> > > > will increase until it reaches a tipping point where most
>
> > > > citizens begin to feel seriously oppressed; then there will

be

>
> > > > either a revolution or a collapse, depending on the

sympathies

>
> > > > of the enforcing agents. I see no reason to expect the U.S.

to

>
> > > > depart from this pattern. Thus there will come a time--it

will

>
> > > > appear as sudden--when the general population is angrily
>
> > > > demanding the abolition of the IRS--and the Libertarian

Party,

>
> > > > behind the curve, is calling, with idiotic and grotesque
>
> > > > irrelevance, for a 10% tax cut.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > I know that some reformers regard the Statement of

Principles

as
>
> > > > an adequate guide for candidates in preparing their own
campaign
>
> > > > platforms. But the generalities of the Statement of

Principles

>
> > > > are as subject to interpretation as the Bible; terms like
>
> > > > freedom and individual rights pervade the rhetoric of
Democrats
>
> > > > and Republicans. The proud distinction of the LP was in
spelling
>
> > > > out the specific implications of these principles for

various

>
> > > > concrete issues. The Statement of Principles might suffice

if

>
> > > > our members were libertarian; it won't, given that most of
them
>
> > > > are not. But, like the Constitution, it offers no

protection

if
>
> > > > the majority want something else.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > I may continue to support individual candidates like Bruce
>
> > > > Guthrie or David Nolan, but the LP in its present form is

not

>
> > > > anything I want to be associated with.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> > http://morey.wordpress.com
>
> > http://FreeStateProject.org
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lpsf-discuss/
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lpsf-discuss/>
>
>
>
> lpsf-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:lpsf-discuss-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>

Dear Marcy and Mike A.,

Just out of curiosity what are the ways of furthering Liberty which you would have in mind which does not require activism in the LP?

Marcy - ???
Mike A. - ???

Inquiring minds need to know!!!

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

Dear Ron,

Huuuuummmm....I am having trouble determining whether you are serious
or not this time. Mike A.'s post was a response to my specific
example of action on behalf of liberty completely outside of
any "activism" in the LP or anywhere else.

Marcy

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...>
wrote:

Dear Marcy and Mike A.,

Just out of curiosity what are the ways of furthering Liberty which

you would have in mind which does not require activism in the LP?

Marcy - ???
Mike A. - ???

Inquiring minds need to know!!!

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

From: Amarcy D. Berry <amarcyb@...>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 7, 2006 6:02:50 PM
Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage

Hi Mike A.,

The passage from Pasternak's Dr. Zhivago comes to my mind, "and who
does more for a nation, the one who makes a fuss about it or the

one

who, without thinking of it, raises it to universality by the

beauty

and greatness of his actions." You are entirely right, there are a
great many ways to further liberty than activism within the LP!!!

And, yes, $40 a month for voice mail, hundreds of dollars for

Public

Access tapes, contributions when something comes up....

Marcy

--- In lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com, "Acree, Michael" <acreem@>
wrote:
>
> A generous sentiment, Marcy, though I'm not sure "standing and
waiting"
> does justice to Michael. There are ways of furthering liberty,

for

all
> of us and not just ourselves, than activism within the Libertarian
> Party.
>
> When Michael leaves SF, incidentally, we'll need to pick up the

$40

or
> so that he has been paying for years for our phone.
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
>
> From: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:lpsf-
discuss@yahoogroups .com]
> On Behalf Of Amarcy D. Berry
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:22 PM
> To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage
>
>
>
> Hi Mike D.,
>
> Yours is not an unusual approach: Live the life of resistance and
> liberty yourself, regardless of what others do or not do (Bart
feels
> that way too. You should have seen him at the airport going to
> Portland, refusing to take his shoes off!! I was very proud of

him.)

>
> He also serves who stands and waits.
>
> Marcy
>
> --- In lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:lpsf- discuss%40yahoog roups.com> , "Mike Denny" <mike@>
wrote:
> >
> > To be honest....after years of passionate activism...I don't

care

> any
> > more. It seems as productive as swimming against the tide. You
can't
> > beat it so the best you can do is hold on and take care until

the

> tide
> > turns. My way of holding on and taking care is to move one part
of
> my
> > business out of SF and another part out of the state. I'm
planning
> to
> > move my residence out of California. That's how I'm going to
create
> more
> > freedom for myself. Politics seems to be a waste of time right
now.
> >
> >
> >
> > When the tide turns in the right direction, then I'll start
swimming
> > with it again. Until then, I'm just clinging to this rock and
> keeping my
> > strength up for another day.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> >
> > From: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:lpsf- discuss%40yahoog roups.com> [mailto:lpsf-
> discuss@yahoogroups .com <mailto:discuss% 40yahoogroups. com> ]
> > On Behalf Of dredelstein@
> > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 1:06 PM
> > To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:lpsf- discuss%40yahoog roups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike D.,
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't understand.
> >
> >
> >
> > How would "ignoring and laughing at it" devolve Govt? Do you
> sincerely
> > believe a politician accruing power would realize how "silly"

he

is
> and
> > just quit?
> >
> >
> >
> > You may try to ignore Govt, but the iron fist of the state with
its
> guns
> > and prisons does not ignore you.
> >
> >
> >
> > But perhaps you were only adding some levity to the discussion.
If
> so,
> > I'm still interested in your response to my original question.
> >
> >
> > Best, Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Mike Denny <mailto:mike@ >
> >
> > To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:lpsf- discuss%40yahoog roups.com>
> >
> > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:15 AM
> >
> > Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage
> >
> >
> >
> > By ignoring and laughing at it until it realizes just how silly
it
> is.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> >
> > From: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:lpsf- discuss%40yahoog roups.com> [mailto:lpsf-
> discuss@yahoogroups .com <mailto:discuss% 40yahoogroups. com> ]
> > On Behalf Of dredelstein@
> > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 10:38 AM
> > To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:lpsf- discuss%40yahoog roups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> >
> >
> > Interesting article, thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have one question regarding how this applies to us: If our
ideas
> don't
> > infiltrate and become part of the state, how do we devolve

state

> power
> > and create an anarcho-libertarian society?
> >
> >
> > Best, Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Mike Denny <mailto:mike@ >
> >
> > To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:lpsf- discuss%40yahoog roups.com>
> >
> > Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 10:47 PM
> >
> > Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage
> >
> >
> >
> > A good article here. As being a State is a recipe for disaster,
it
> may
> > seem that anyone who expects to be the state can expect to

fail.

> That's
> > the reason the LP is failing right along side the Dems and
Repubs.
> >
> >
> >
> > Unlike the beginning of the LP, the party is attracting people

who

> > actually think obtaining state power is a good thing. That's a
bad
> thing
> > for the LP.
> >
> >
> >
> > What we are seeing is that attachment to the state and its
apparatus
> > will lose for Liberty. Avoiding the state and its apparatus

will

> win for
> > Liberty.
> >
> >
> >
> > Ron Paul has done as good a job as possible within the context

of

> > political power. Anyone locally who wants to lobby for his
> positions and
> > participate in that side of activism even as a Republican will
have
> my
> > full support.
> >
> >
> >
> > For the rest of us...with apologies to Joanie Mitchell..." We
don't
> need
> > some piece of paper from the" LP "to keep us tried and true" to
> Liberty.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > To Be or Not To Be a State?
> >
> >
> > by William S. Lind <mailto:dkern@ >
> > <http://www.lewrockw ell.com/lind/ lind100.html# #
> <http://www.lewrockw ell.com/lind/ lind100.html# #> >
> > <http://www.lewrockw ell.com/lind/ lind100.html# #
> <http://www.lewrockw ell.com/lind/ lind100.html# #> >
> > <http://www.lewrockw ell.com/lind/ lind100.html# #
> <http://www.lewrockw ell.com/lind/ lind100.html# #> >
> >
> > When Hamas won the Palestinian elections, a highly successful
Fourth
> > Generation entity became a state. No doubt that was one of

Hamas's

> > highest aspirations. But by becoming a state, it became far more
> > vulnerable to other states than it was as a non-state entity.

How

> Hamas
> > deals with this problem may say a great deal about the future

of

> Fourth
> > Generation war.
> >
> > Hamas may have presumed that once it won a free election, other
> states,
> > including the United States and Israel, would have to recognize
its
> > legitimacy. Great expectations are seldom fulfilled in the

amoral

> world
> > of international politics. When the Washington Establishment
calls
> for
> > "free elections," what it means is elections that elect the
people
> it
> > wants to deal with. Hamas does not fall into that category.
> Washington
> > therefore greeted Hamas's electoral victory with a full-court
press
> to
> > destroy the new Hamas leadership of the Palestinian Authority,
> a "state"
> > that bears a state's burdens with none of a state's assets. Both
> > Machiavelli and Metternich were no doubt delighted by this act

of

> > Wilsonian hypocrisy, a variety that often exceeds their own and
> does so
> > with a straight face, an act they could never quite master,

being

> > gentlemen.
> >
> > In cooperation with Israel (can Washington now do anything

except

in
> > cooperation with Israel?) the U.S. imposed a starvation

blockade

on
> the
> > Palestinian territories. Instead of British armored cruisers,

the

> > blockaders this time are U.S. banking laws, plus Israeli-
> withholding of
> > Palestinian tax receipts. As the government of a quasi-state,
Hamas
> > found itself with no money. PA employees went unpaid and PA
> services,
> > such as they were, largely collapsed. The burden, as always,

fell

on
> > average Palestinians.
> >
> > In the past week, Israel has upped the ante by threatening a

full-

> scale
> > military attack on Gaza. The Israelis had already been

escalating

> > quietly: a raid here, a missile there, artillery shells

somewhere

> else.
> > With Palestinian civilians dying, Hamas had to respond. It did

so

> with a
> > raid on an Israeli army post, a legitimate military target.
> (Attacks on
> > military targets are not "terrorism." ) The well-planned and
> brilliantly
> > conducted raid (so well done as to suggest Hezbollah

assistance)

> killed
> > two Israeli soldiers and captured one.
> >
> > Normally, that captured Israeli would be a Hamas asset. But now
that
> > Hamas is a state, it has discovered Cpl. Gilad Shalit is a major
> > liability. Israel is refusing all deals for his return. If

Hamas

> returns
> > him without a deal, it will be humiliated. If it continues to
hold
> him,
> > Israel will up the military pressure; it is already destroying

PA

> > targets such as government offices and arresting PA cabinet
> members. If
> > it kills him, the Israeli public will back whatever revenge
strikes
> the
> > Israeli military wants. Hamas is now far more targetable than

it

> was as
> > a non-state entity, but is no better able to defend itself or
> Palestine
> > than it was as Fourth Generation force. 4GW forces are

generally

> unable
> > to defend territory or fixed targets against state armed

forces,

but
> > they have no reason to do so. Now, as a quasi-state, Hamas must
do
> so or
> > appear to be defeated.
> >
> > Does the sign really say "No Exit" for Hamas? It may, so long

as

> Hamas
> > remains a state, or has aspirations to be one. Washington's and
Tel
> > Aviv's obvious goal is to push the Hamas government to the

point

> where
> > it must choose between a humanitarian catastrophe for the
> Palestinian
> > people and resignation, with the return of corrupt and

compliant

> Fatah
> > to power. Either way, Hamas will have suffered an enormous
defeat,
> to
> > the point where it is unlikely to be a serious alternative ever
> again.
> >
> > There is, however, another way out for Hamas. It can call and
raise
> > Washington's and Tel Aviv's bets. How? By voting to dissolve the
> > Palestinian Authority. Ending the PA would dump the Palestinian
> > territories and their inhabitants right back in Israel's lap.
Under
> > international law, as the occupying power, Israel would be
> responsible
> > for everything in the territories: security, human services,
> utilities
> > and infrastructure, the economy, the whole megillah (oy!).

Israel

> could
> > try to restore the PA in cooperation with Fatah, but if Fatah
joined
> > Israel in doing so, it would destroy what legitimacy it has

left.

> Hamas
> > could meanwhile return to a 4GW war against Israel,

unencumbered

> with
> > the dubious assets of a state, and with lots more targets as
Israel
> > attempted to run the Palestinian Territories itself.
> >
> > Hamas faces what may be a defining moment, not only for itself
but
> for
> > Fourth Generation entities elsewhere. Does it want the

trappings

of
> a
> > state so much that it will render itself targetable as a state,
or
> can
> > it see through the glitter of being "cabinet ministers" and the
> like and
> > go instead for substance by retaining non-state status? To be

or

> not to
> > be a state, that is the question - for Hamas and soon enough

for

> other
> > 4GW entities as well.
> >
> > July 6, 2006
> >
> > William Lind [send him mail <mailto:dkern@ > ] is
> > Director of the Center for Cultural Conservatism at the Free
> Congress
> > Foundation. The views expressed in this article are those of

Mr.

> Lind,
> > writing in his personal capacity.
> >
> > Copyright (c) 2006 William S. Lind
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:lpsf- discuss%40yahoog roups.com> [mailto:lpsf-
> discuss@yahoogroups .com <mailto:discuss% 40yahoogroups. com> ]
> > On Behalf Of Amarcy D. Berry
> > Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 10:16 PM
> > To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:lpsf- discuss%40yahoog roups.com>
> > Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Convention Carnage
> >
> >
> >
> > Morphing into "San Francisco Libertarians" is just fine, if the
> >
> > intent is to be an orginization of like-minded individuals

doing

> >
> > whatever they decide to do (debate, activism, publishing LTE's
and
> >
> > other writings, for example). As long as the organization does
not
> >
> > take in any money, there would be no need to register with any
> >
> > government agency. Or if money is desired, maybe an educational
non-
> >
> > profit status could be sought from the IRS. Paralell to that
> >
> > organization, an LPSF would continue as a political party
> affiliated
> >
> > with the LPCA, if there is enough interest.
> >
> >
> >
> > Another alternative, of course, would be a brand new political
> party
> >
> > with another name (can't use "Libertarian" ).
> >
> >
> >
> > Marcy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:lpsf- discuss%40yahoog roups.com> , "Morey Straus"
> >
> > <morey.straus@ > wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Maybe it's time to revisit Allen Rice's idea of morphing into
> >
> > the "San
> >
> > > Francisco Libertarians" as an unaffiliated group.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > A worthwhile question, Justin. A number of people are
> already
> >
> > pointing
> >
> > > > out the possibility of state platforms. In our case, that
> >
> > doesn't help,
> >
> > > > because Starr was the one who moved to delete all the
remaining
> >
> > planks.
> >
> > > > There's no reason I know of why we couldn't go ahead and
> develop
> >
> > a local
> >
> > > > platform, though I confess my own enthusiasm is limited by
> >
> > wanting to
> >
> > > > distance myself from the national and state parties.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > ------------ --------- ---------
> >
> > > > *From:* lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:lpsf- discuss%40yahoog roups.com> [mailto:lpsf-
> >
> > discuss@yahoogroups .com <mailto:discuss% 40yahoogroups. com> ]
> >
> > > > *On Behalf Of *Justin T. Sampson
> >
> > > > *Sent:* Thursday, July 06, 2006 12:41 PM
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > *To:* lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:lpsf- discuss%40yahoog roups.com>
> >
> > > > *Subject:* Re: [lpsf-discuss] Convention Carnage
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Howdy,
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Would there be any interest in a local LPSF Platform? We

have

> our
> >
> > > > own unique mix of anarchist, minarchist, and reformist

members

> >
> > > > with many valued contributions over the years. Such a

Platform

> >
> > > > could cover specific local issues as well as national and
global
> >
> > > > issues. Having a face-to-face dialogue may be worthwhile.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Cheers,
> >
> > > > Justin
> >
> > > >
> >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > > The takeover of the LP by conservatives that I have been
> >
> > > > > predicting for 10 years (even if the LP News has declined

to

> >
> > > > > publish my letters and articles warning about that) has
> finally
> >
> > > > > occurred. Owing to a fluke of circumstances, it wasn't
> complete;
> >
> > > > > we are left with a bizarre fragment of a platform which
> pleases
> >
> > > > > no one, but that will soon be eliminated as well. I see no
> >
> > > > > chance that anything like the original platform will ever

be

> >
> > > > > restored, just because conservatives already outnumber
> >
> > > > > libertarians in the Party, and there are vastly more of

them

> >
> > > > > potentially to be recruited. What I haven't figured out

is

why
> >
> > > > > they want to take over the LP and change it, rather than
> working
> >
> > > > > with a more conservative party to start with, like the
> >
> > > > > Constitution Party. Can anyone clue me in?
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Starchild is right to make a conceptual distinction

between

> >
> > > > > conservatism and reformism, but it is no accident that

the

two
> >
> > > > > groups are so largely overlapping. Reformism is the
embodiment
> >
> > > > > of the conservative spirit or style. Temperamentally,
> >
> > > > > conservatives are non-boat-rockers; they fear large,

sudden

> >
> > > > > changes, even if they are in the right direction.

However,

> while
> >
> > > > > we see governments growing incrementally almost

everywhere,

it
> >
> > > > > is hard to find examples of governments gradually

shrinking.

> >
> > > > > Ignorance and denial pretty much guarantee that

government

> power
> >
> > > > > will increase until it reaches a tipping point where most
> >
> > > > > citizens begin to feel seriously oppressed; then there

will

be
> >
> > > > > either a revolution or a collapse, depending on the
sympathies
> >
> > > > > of the enforcing agents. I see no reason to expect the

U.S.

to
> >
> > > > > depart from this pattern. Thus there will come a time--it
will
> >
> > > > > appear as sudden--when the general population is angrily
> >
> > > > > demanding the abolition of the IRS--and the Libertarian
Party,
> >
> > > > > behind the curve, is calling, with idiotic and grotesque
> >
> > > > > irrelevance, for a 10% tax cut.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > I know that some reformers regard the Statement of
Principles
> as
> >
> > > > > an adequate guide for candidates in preparing their own
> campaign
> >
> > > > > platforms. But the generalities of the Statement of
Principles
> >
> > > > > are as subject to interpretation as the Bible; terms like
> >
> > > > > freedom and individual rights pervade the rhetoric of
> Democrats
> >
> > > > > and Republicans. The proud distinction of the LP was in
> spelling
> >
> > > > > out the specific implications of these principles for
various
> >
> > > > > concrete issues. The Statement of Principles might

suffice

if
> >
> > > > > our members were libertarian; it won't, given that most

of