RE: [lpsf-discuss] FW: [gaylibertarian] First the Ten Commandments, now this ....

"Jundge not lest ye be judged"...and there's clearly too much judging going on around here.

This whole thing makes me sick...

Mike

Someone was reputed to have said, " Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

I guess Preacher Phelps never read that. Or maybe he does selective preaching using selective sections of the Bible. As it fits his selective needs to be selective about who he condemns.

The article is another valid reason why there has to be a separation of church and state. Just look at the weasel out the wimpy court handed down to the wascals on the town council.

What wretchedness will the wrathful wheezy windbag Phelps whip up next as he worships at the altar of the wayward whackos reaping the whirlwind of the woeful witless.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

Mike Denny <mike@...> wrote:
"Jundge not lest ye be judged"...and there's clearly too much judging going on around here.

This whole thing makes me sick...

Mike

Rob,

One is about the Ten Commandments, and one is about a
statue of a person. Since I'm a math teacher (or try
to be), I know I can't combine unlike terms, such as
2x and 3y.

Dave Barker.

They are both assertions of religious belief. One is, "God set forth these laws," the other is, "homosexuals, and specifically Matthew Shepard, burn in hell." The government can not support any one religious expression above another; if the government is granting space for religious expression, then it must allow all equally, however noxious. Better to stay out of it altogether.

BTW, don't give Fred Phelps any more credit than he deserves. His "congregation" is a group of a little over a dozen folks, mostly related to him, and it's only the media attention he gets that keeps him going. The best response he's had so far was a bar that organized a pledge drive, raising money for (I think) AIDS treatment based on how many hours his picket lasted. He never showed up (though most of the pledgers donated money anyway).

~Chris

Hey Chris,

What the heck are you talking about? I never even
mentioned this dude's name.

It's you and Rob that are sending and responding to
messages regarding this guy's agenda, which does give
him credit.

Actually, in my opinion, comparing this guy's agenda
to the Ten Commandments is actually giving him a lot
of credit. I don't even see the similarity between the
two, but you stated that you do. I never even
mentioned his name.

The Ten commandments, in my opinion, as far as I can
see, is a document that wasn't written by any human
being, but was used by human beings to help them
create this great man-made document called the
Constitution and the Bill of Rights, intended to
promote freedom and liberty, which is probably why it
is still displayed in governmnet offices. I don't see
any hateful references to homosexuality in the Ten
Commandments, and I certainly don't see any similarity
to comparing it to an individual trying to erect a
staue with his own personal opinion about another
human being inscribed on it. What else can I say on
this except that I think the Ten Commandments being
displayed in government offices is to remind us of
it's value to achieving liberty and freedom, not to
promote a homophobic agenda. This is my opinion, and I
hope we'll all be living happily ever after in New
Hampshire!

Dave Barker.

--- "Christopher R. Maden" <crism@...> wrote:

A few points.

The 1st commandment is something of a condemnation of other religions:
"I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me..."
At least, that's how I'd take it if I saw a big display of it in a government court house.

Some of the others are specific religious laws:
"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain...
"Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image..."
"Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day..."
(The Taliban took some of these quite seriously)

And even if you don't find any of them particularly offensive, the fact that they are part of a larger document suggests that quoting them endorses the document as a whole, which contains the following:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gay/long.htm
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

I'm sure there are innocuous passages in Mein Kampf, but how would you feel about a monument quoting them in a positive light?

-- Steve

Dear Everyone;

The simple fact is if Jesus had known what Christians would do to other people in his name - Jesus would still be spinning in his grave.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

P. S. Was Jesus Jewish? Let me see - He was 30 years old - still single - living at his parents place - working in his fathers business and his mother thought he was god. Now tell me Jesus wasn't Jewish.

Steve Dekorte <steve@...> wrote:

The Ten commandments, in my opinion, as far as I can
see, is a document that wasn't written by any human
being, but was used by human beings to help them
create this great man-made document called the
Constitution and the Bill of Rights, intended to
promote freedom and liberty, which is probably why it
is still displayed in governmnet offices. I don't see
any hateful references to homosexuality in the Ten
Commandments

A few points.

The 1st commandment is something of a condemnation of other religions:
"I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me..."
At least, that's how I'd take it if I saw a big display of it in a
government court house.

Some of the others are specific religious laws:
"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain...
"Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image..."
"Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day..."
(The Taliban took some of these quite seriously)

And even if you don't find any of them particularly offensive, the fact
that they are part of a larger document suggests that quoting them
endorses the document as a whole, which contains the following:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gay/long.htm
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

I'm sure there are innocuous passages in Mein Kampf, but how would you
feel about a monument quoting them in a positive light?

-- Steve

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Steve,

At least I put in my e-mail; "in my opinion..." This
last e-mail of yours, to me, is your opinion.

Also in my opinon, I don't see the connection between
the Ten Commandments and Mein Kampf. Actually, I'm a
little surprised and offended by this, but that's OK.
Similarly, many people have drawn the connection
between Libertarians and "right-wing extremist
wackos," just as an example. As a Libertarian, I've
always been surprised by this comparison, and
offended, as well, because I don't see the connection
between the two.

As a Libertarian, I always appreciate what we all have
in common, and that is the belief in individual
liberties, personal freedom, limited government,
property rights, etc. and that it doesn't matter how
much money you have, what religion you are, whether
you belive in a Creator or not, "pro-choice" or not,
etc... we can all 'hang-out' together as Libertrians
with a shared political belief not use force against
people to get our way, and that's great!

I never shared my opinion on whether or not I support
the Ten Commandments being displayed in a government
building. You might be surprised. I did share a little
of my opinion on of the history regarding the Ten
commandments, such as how the Founders referred to it
to promote freedom and liberty. Mein Kampf nor the
Taliban promote freedom and/or liberty, nor do they
have visions to. The Founders did. I just pointed out
this historical fact, and my personal opinion, and I
never mentioned the dude's name that Rob was talking
about. I see, many times, people tend to get off-track
in their discussions and start philosophizing and
such. To me, it's about the central, federal
government dictating to the States how to manage their
affairs, not how I feel personally.

Also, you left out some things in the Ten Commandments
such as "Thou Shalt not Murder." I don't think the
Taliban, or the dude that wrote Main Kampf took this
part too seriously, and another reason why I see a
complete disctinction between the Ten Commandments and
them, not a similarity, as you do. Of course, this is
my opinion.

Dave B.

--- Steve Dekorte <steve@...> wrote:

Dave,

  I'm curious how you believe the Ten Commandments helped with the creation of the U.S. Constitution. The Constitution certainly relies on the notion that rights are inherent or "god-given," but the Ten Commandments weren't about giving rights.

  If anything, those tablets associated with Moses seem to be about taking rights away -- revoking the free will that the Biblical God allegedly granted to human beings. After all, are you really feel free to exercise your right to free will if an entity capable of sending you to eternal torture or eternal bliss lays out in no uncertain terms what he (it?) thinks you *ought* to be doing? Isn't there an implied threat there?

  BTW, I just noticed your cover story on being an Oakland government school teacher in last month's California Liberty (the state LP newsletter). Great job!

Yours in liberty,
              <<< Starchild >>>

Starchild,

You just answered your own question. The rest of your
e-mail is your own personal opinion.

I think we tend to stray away from the main point of
these discussions, which is the limited role of the
federal government, and instead focus on our own
opinions and philosophies and hypotheical situations,
which are secondary.

I think the main point here is about the role of the
federal government dictating to the states what to do,
not arguing over religion.

Thanks for the congrats. regarding my article. It was
my first political article, and my first article in a
newspaper outside of a college campus. I was kind of
nervous, not knowing how it would come out and what
people would say. There are so many things I could
talk and complain about regarding the dynamics of the
public education system. Anytime anybody wants to know
something about it, please e-mail me. I'd be happy to
respond.

Dave Barker.

--- Starchild <sfdreamer@...> wrote:

Also in my opinon, I don't see the connection between
the Ten Commandments and Mein Kampf.

The connection is that they both contain ideas that many people would consider "hateful". After examining the links I sent, do you see the case for this point of view?

Actually, I'm a little surprised and offended by this, but that's OK.

It wasn't my intent to offend you, just to explain why people would find government endorsement of the Bible to be offensive.

Mein Kampf nor the Taliban promote freedom and/or liberty, nor do they
have visions to.

The Taliban is a Islamic government and Islam is significantly based on the Old Testament, which includes the Ten Commandments. Apparently, they had a different interpretation.

Founders referred to it to promote freedom and liberty.

Perhaps. Though I do know that Jefferson and Franklin had misgivings about religion:
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
  - Thomas Jefferson

Also, you left out some things in the Ten Commandments
such as "Thou Shalt not Murder." I don't think the
Taliban, or the dude that wrote Main Kampf took this
part too seriously

You assume that commandment is consistent with the rest of the text. But in the Bible, God is constantly ordering murder of the innocent and genocide or executing such acts himself. It's not hard to see how people would follow this example:

"Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
http://www.ffrf.org/pennstation/hitler.html

As a whole, the Bible seems quite comfortable with the use of violence. And so has most every major religion that I know of that is based on it (in deed, if not in word). However, I don't think this is a problem unique to the Bible, but rather with dogma in general. Religion just happens to be a powerful bastion of dogma.

-- Steve

To be clear, I meant the connection between the Bible and Mein Kampf.

-- Steve