RE: [lpsf-discuss] A Great Article On "Lawless" Somalia

You are right on nearly all accounts. A huge part of the wealth transfer
goes to politically powerful "administrators" to these programs who skim
off a thick layer of money off the top. Much is fed to union workers.
Corporate welfare and the like are also huge. So the game is that
everyone pays somewhat equally but the rich and powerful get the money
back in the form of subsidies, government grants and contracts. Saps
without power like us only get to pay...without the getting all the
kickbacks that comes with being rich and powerful.

Mike

Dear Mike and derek;
   
  Then I say it is definitely time for a new Revolution! Viva La Revoluciones!!! For the poor sapped taxed out middle class workers who got guns!!! And everyone else who wants to join on in!!!
   
  Ron Getty
  SF Libertarian

Mike Denny <mike@...> wrote:
        v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } You are right on nearly all accounts. A huge part of the wealth transfer goes to politically powerful �administrators� to these programs who skim off a thick layer of money off the top. Much is fed to union workers. Corporate welfare and the like are also huge. So the game is that everyone pays somewhat equally but the rich and powerful get the money back in the form of subsidies, government grants and contracts. Saps without power like us only get to pay�without the getting all the kickbacks that comes with being rich and powerful.
   
  Mike

[ Attachment content not displayed ]

Dear Derek;

What? You don't want to overthrow the current regime and replace it
with something Libertarian wise???

How else do you propose to get rid of the bloated bureacracy and the
bloated tax structure and all those Socialistic social security -
medicare - welfare - housing programs and the taxes sucked out of
everyones wallets it takes to support them???

You can't make an omelot without breaking some eggs.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@...>
wrote:

Ron:

We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out

>
> Dear Mike and derek;
>
> Then I say it is definitely time for a new Revolution! Viva La
> Revoluciones!!! For the poor sapped taxed out middle class

workers who got

> guns!!! And everyone else who wants to join on in!!!
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
> *Mike Denny <mike@...>* wrote:
>
> You are right on nearly all accounts. A huge part of the wealth

transfer

> goes to politically powerful "administrators" to these programs

who skim off

> a thick layer of money off the top. Much is fed to union

workers. Corporate

> welfare and the like are also huge. So the game is that everyone

pays

> somewhat equally but the rich and powerful get the money back in

the form of

> subsidies, government grants and contracts. Saps without power

like us only

> get to pay…without the getting all the kickbacks that comes with

being rich

> and powerful.
>
> Mike
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-

discuss@yahoogroups.com]

> *On Behalf Of *Derek Jensen
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:50 PM
> *To:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [lpsf-discuss] A Great Article On "Lawless"

Somalia

>
> Mike:
>
> I agree with you that the government tends to protect itself

first.

> Certainly next on the list is the protection of moneyed

corporate interests

> through forced monopolies, tarrifs, "licensing" schemes,

corporate welfare,

> and so on and so on. It's the small-business owning and salaried
> upper-middle class employee schmucks that in my opinion get

shafted the

> most.
>
> Otherwise, how do you explain the large wealth transfer that is

social

> security, medicare, medicaid, and welfare payments in general?

To me, these

> are obviously a way for the politicians to buy the votes of the

poor.

>
> I think the "progressive" income tax structure is certainly

evidence that

> the government is stealing from the "rich" to buy the votes of

the poor.

> The top 10% of taxpayers are paying 70% of all tax receipts in

this

> country. If that's the coffee I'm supposed to be smelling, then

I want some

> other flavor.
>
> -Derek
>
>
>
>
> Charity or they can buy the best defense they can afford…

whatever it is.

> I can't even do that here.
>
> The idea that government protects the poor is common but

certainly a

> misconception. The government always protects itself first. Then

it protects

> the rich and powerful. Anyone who thinks the poor are going to

beat the rich

> and powerful in government need to wake up and smell the coffee.
>
> Mike
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-

discuss@yahoogroups.com]

> *On Behalf Of *Derek Jensen
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:27 PM
>
> *To:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [lpsf-discuss] A Great Article On "Lawless"

Somalia

>
> Mike:
>
> Most of the people reading this are established, able-bodied

gun-owning

> men, with high incomes. We'd probably do just fine in an

anarchist setting.

>
>
> What about the poor and weak? What are they to rely upon for

their

> defense? Charity?
>
> -Derek
>
>
>
> Yes Sarosh…it may not be pleasant but their GDP and services

indicate

> it's working better than the "nominal fairness" of surrounding

governments.

> So it's all relative. Personlly, I find the "nominal fairness"

of our

> government oppressive to an extreme level. Our violence is

wrapped in the

> cloth of "justice" and "democracy" but it is certainly violent

too. Just ask

> someone who is thinking about defending his property from tax

collectors

> with guns. Our way is also WAY WAY more expensive. Picking

peoples' pockets

> without them knowing it is violence too…but harder for the

victim to

> identify the source of the theft.
>
> Mike
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-

discuss@yahoogroups.com]

> *On Behalf Of *saroshk@...
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:06 PM
> *To:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [lpsf-discuss] A Great Article On "Lawless"

Somalia

>
> In a message dated 2/21/2006 12:52:52 P.M. Pacific Standard

Time,

> tradergroupe@... writes:
>
> Dear Everyone;
>
> This Mises article on "lawless" Somalia is very insightful as it
> describes a country surviving without a central government and

doing quite

> nicely. Thank You.
>
> Anarchy does mean a country can survive if it has an underlying

means for

> ajudicating disputes without formal court procedures. In this

case Somali's

> Tribal Affiliations.
>
> Even the CIA acknowledges how well off Somalia in its CIA

factbook<http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/so.html#Ec

:
>
> "Despite the seeming anarchy, Somalia's service sector has

managed to

> survive and grow. Telecommunication firms provide wireless

services in most

> major cities and offer the lowest international call rates on

the continent.

> In the absence of a formal banking sector, money exchange

services have

> sprouted throughout the country, handling between $500 million

and $1

> billion in remittances annually. Mogadishu's main market offers

a variety of

> goods from food to the newest electronic gadgets. Hotels

continue to

> operate, and militias provide security."
>
> http://www.mises.org/story/2066
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
> while any people, country or region can survive under anarchy,

it is not

> necessarily a pleasant or desirable way to live.
>
> in somalia, warlords (ie private militias) control local

regions, but the

> struggle for power exploits ordinary citizens who often have to

pay multiple

> warlords (ie government, enforcers) for "protection", so they

can survive.

>
> governments arose in reaction to anarchy -- you only have to

pay one

> "warlord" (ie government) for protection, and there is a formula

(tax

> system) in place so there is nominal fairness in paying for

protection

> services.
>
> Sarosh D. Kumana
> www.sfrent.net
> Tel: 415-861-4554
> Fax: 415-931-4004
> Cell: 415-425-5184
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> U s government grant<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?

t=ms&k=U+s+government+grant&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+pa
rty&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&s=107&.
sig=-TEWz9xDSTBwp7pUOuLHAA>

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The ballot box?

Dear Derek;

Like the ballot boxes of Ohio??? Or the previous ballot boxes of
Florida??? Love those ballot boxes.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@...>
wrote:

The ballot box?

> Dear Derek;
>
> What? You don't want to overthrow the current regime and replace

it

> with something Libertarian wise???
>
> How else do you propose to get rid of the bloated bureacracy and

the

> bloated tax structure and all those Socialistic social security -
> medicare - welfare - housing programs and the taxes sucked out of
> everyones wallets it takes to support them???
>
> You can't make an omelot without breaking some eggs.
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
>
> — In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ron:
> >
> > We all want to change the world
> > But when you talk about destruction
> > Don't you know that you can count me out
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Dear Mike and derek;
> > >
> > > Then I say it is definitely time for a new Revolution! Viva

La

> > > Revoluciones!!! For the poor sapped taxed out middle class
> workers who got
> > > guns!!! And everyone else who wants to join on in!!!
> > >
> > > Ron Getty
> > > SF Libertarian
> > >
> > > *Mike Denny <mike@>* wrote:
> > >
> > > You are right on nearly all accounts. A huge part of the

wealth

> transfer
> > > goes to politically powerful "administrators" to these

programs

> who skim off
> > > a thick layer of money off the top. Much is fed to union
> workers. Corporate
> > > welfare and the like are also huge. So the game is that

everyone

> pays
> > > somewhat equally but the rich and powerful get the money

back in

> the form of
> > > subsidies, government grants and contracts. Saps without

power

> like us only
> > > get to pay…without the getting all the kickbacks that comes

with

> being rich
> > > and powerful.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-
> discuss@yahoogroups.com]
> > > *On Behalf Of *Derek Jensen
> > > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:50 PM
> > > *To:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> > > *Subject:* Re: [lpsf-discuss] A Great Article On "Lawless"
> Somalia
> > >
> > > Mike:
> > >
> > > I agree with you that the government tends to protect itself
> first.
> > > Certainly next on the list is the protection of moneyed
> corporate interests
> > > through forced monopolies, tarrifs, "licensing" schemes,
> corporate welfare,
> > > and so on and so on. It's the small-business owning and

salaried

> > > upper-middle class employee schmucks that in my opinion get
> shafted the
> > > most.
> > >
> > > Otherwise, how do you explain the large wealth transfer

that is

> social
> > > security, medicare, medicaid, and welfare payments in

general?

> To me, these
> > > are obviously a way for the politicians to buy the votes of

the

> poor.
> > >
> > > I think the "progressive" income tax structure is certainly
> evidence that
> > > the government is stealing from the "rich" to buy the votes

of

> the poor.
> > > The top 10% of taxpayers are paying 70% of all tax receipts

in

> this
> > > country. If that's the coffee I'm supposed to be smelling,

then

> I want some
> > > other flavor.
> > >
> > > -Derek
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Charity or they can buy the best defense they can afford…
> whatever it is.
> > > I can't even do that here.
> > >
> > > The idea that government protects the poor is common but
> certainly a
> > > misconception. The government always protects itself first.

Then

> it protects
> > > the rich and powerful. Anyone who thinks the poor are going

to

> beat the rich
> > > and powerful in government need to wake up and smell the

coffee.

> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-
> discuss@yahoogroups.com]
> > > *On Behalf Of *Derek Jensen
> > > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:27 PM
> > >
> > > *To:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> > > *Subject:* Re: [lpsf-discuss] A Great Article On "Lawless"
> Somalia
> > >
> > > Mike:
> > >
> > > Most of the people reading this are established, able-bodied
> gun-owning
> > > men, with high incomes. We'd probably do just fine in an
> anarchist setting.
> > >
> > >
> > > What about the poor and weak? What are they to rely upon

for

> their
> > > defense? Charity?
> > >
> > > -Derek
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes Sarosh…it may not be pleasant but their GDP and services
> indicate
> > > it's working better than the "nominal fairness" of

surrounding

> governments.
> > > So it's all relative. Personlly, I find the "nominal

fairness"

> of our
> > > government oppressive to an extreme level. Our violence is
> wrapped in the
> > > cloth of "justice" and "democracy" but it is certainly

violent

> too. Just ask
> > > someone who is thinking about defending his property from tax
> collectors
> > > with guns. Our way is also WAY WAY more expensive. Picking
> peoples' pockets
> > > without them knowing it is violence too…but harder for the
> victim to
> > > identify the source of the theft.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-
> discuss@yahoogroups.com]
> > > *On Behalf Of *saroshk@
> > > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:06 PM
> > > *To:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> > > *Subject:* Re: [lpsf-discuss] A Great Article On "Lawless"
> Somalia
> > >
> > > In a message dated 2/21/2006 12:52:52 P.M. Pacific Standard
> Time,
> > > tradergroupe@ writes:
> > >
> > > Dear Everyone;
> > >
> > > This Mises article on "lawless" Somalia is very insightful

as it

> > > describes a country surviving without a central government

and

> doing quite
> > > nicely. Thank You.
> > >
> > > Anarchy does mean a country can survive if it has an

underlying

> means for
> > > ajudicating disputes without formal court procedures. In this
> case Somali's
> > > Tribal Affiliations.
> > >
> > > Even the CIA acknowledges how well off Somalia in its CIA
>

factbook<http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/so.html#Ec

> >:
> > >
> > > "Despite the seeming anarchy, Somalia's service sector has
> managed to
> > > survive and grow. Telecommunication firms provide wireless
> services in most
> > > major cities and offer the lowest international call rates on
> the continent.
> > > In the absence of a formal banking sector, money exchange
> services have
> > > sprouted throughout the country, handling between $500

million

> and $1
> > > billion in remittances annually. Mogadishu's main market

offers

> a variety of
> > > goods from food to the newest electronic gadgets. Hotels
> continue to
> > > operate, and militias provide security."
> > >
> > > http://www.mises.org/story/2066
> > >
> > > Ron Getty
> > > SF Libertarian
> > >
> > > while any people, country or region can survive under

anarchy,

> it is not
> > > necessarily a pleasant or desirable way to live.
> > >
> > > in somalia, warlords (ie private militias) control local
> regions, but the
> > > struggle for power exploits ordinary citizens who often have

to

> pay multiple
> > > warlords (ie government, enforcers) for "protection", so they
> can survive.
> > >
> > > governments arose in reaction to anarchy -- you only have to
> pay one
> > > "warlord" (ie government) for protection, and there is a

formula

> (tax
> > > system) in place so there is nominal fairness in paying for
> protection
> > > services.
> > >
> > > Sarosh D. Kumana
> > > www.sfrent.net
> > > Tel: 415-861-4554
> > > Fax: 415-931-4004
> > > Cell: 415-425-5184
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > U s government grant<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=U+s+government+grant&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+pa

>

rty&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&s=107&.

> sig=-TEWz9xDSTBwp7pUOuLHAA>
> > > Libertarian party<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=Libertarian+party&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+party

>

&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&s=107&.sig

> =GhiTfRFcmqxbzfuEtgS-Ow>
> > > U s government student loan<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=U+s+government+student+loan&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Liberta

>

rian+party&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&

> s=107&.sig=at21uQxzQxCrqYBHvl-9-w>
> > > California politics<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=California+politics&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+par

>

ty&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&s=107&.s

> ig=XR3mel2ZuJZkr4i7oNUS-A>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > >
> > > - Visit your group "lpsf-discuss
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lpsf-discuss>" on the web.
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> > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > U s government grant<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=U+s+government+grant&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+pa

>

rty&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&s=107&.

> sig=-TEWz9xDSTBwp7pUOuLHAA>
> > > Libertarian party<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=Libertarian+party&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+party

>

&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&s=107&.sig

> =GhiTfRFcmqxbzfuEtgS-Ow>
> > > U s government student loan<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=U+s+government+student+loan&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Liberta

>

rian+party&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&

> s=107&.sig=at21uQxzQxCrqYBHvl-9-w>
> > > California politics<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=California+politics&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+par

>

ty&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&s=107&.s

> ig=XR3mel2ZuJZkr4i7oNUS-A>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > >
> > > - Visit your group "lpsf-discuss
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lpsf-discuss>" on the web.
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> > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > >
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> > > ------------------------------
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> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > U s government grant<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=U+s+government+grant&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+pa

>

rty&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&s=107&.

> sig=-TEWz9xDSTBwp7pUOuLHAA>
> > > Libertarian party<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=Libertarian+party&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+party

>

&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&s=107&.sig

> =GhiTfRFcmqxbzfuEtgS-Ow>
> > > U s government student loan<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=U+s+government+student+loan&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Liberta

>

rian+party&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&

> s=107&.sig=at21uQxzQxCrqYBHvl-9-w>
> > > California politics<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=California+politics&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+par

>

ty&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&s=107&.s

> ig=XR3mel2ZuJZkr4i7oNUS-A>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > >
> > > - Visit your group "lpsf-
> discuss<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lpsf-discuss>"
> > > on the web.
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> > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > U s government grant<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=U+s+government+grant&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+pa

>

rty&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&s=107&.

> sig=-TEWz9xDSTBwp7pUOuLHAA> Libertarian
> > > party<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=Libertarian+party&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+party

>

&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&s=107&.sig

> =GhiTfRFcmqxbzfuEtgS-Ow> U
> > > s government student loan<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=U+s+government+student+loan&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Liberta

>

rian+party&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&

> s=107&.sig=at21uQxzQxCrqYBHvl-9-w> California
> > > politics<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=California+politics&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+par

>

ty&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&s=107&.s

> ig=XR3mel2ZuJZkr4i7oNUS-A>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > U s government grant<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=U+s+government+grant&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+pa

>

rty&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&s=107&.

> sig=-TEWz9xDSTBwp7pUOuLHAA> Libertarian
> > > party<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=Libertarian+party&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+party

>

&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&s=107&.sig

> =GhiTfRFcmqxbzfuEtgS-Ow> U
> > > s government student loan<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=U+s+government+student+loan&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Liberta

>

rian+party&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&

> s=107&.sig=at21uQxzQxCrqYBHvl-9-w> California
> > > politics<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

t=ms&k=California+politics&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+par

>

ty&w3=U+s+government+student+loan&w4=California+politics&c=4&s=107&.s

> ig=XR3mel2ZuJZkr4i7oNUS-A>
> > > ------------------------------
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > >
> > > - Visit your group "lpsf-
> discuss<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lpsf-discuss>"
> > > on the web.
> > >
> > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > lpsf-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<lpsf-discuss-
> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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