RE: [lpsf-discuss] 1,000 SF Elders Get Monthly Food Boxes CUT!! NOW WHAT!!!

Ron,

  I don't know about nationally, but there are places in San Francisco where one can get free meals. There is even "Meals on Wheels" which delivers (see http://006425e.netsolhost.com/services_HDM.htm). I would urge elderly poor who have no other realistic options to turn to programs like this for help.

  Do you have any specific individuals in mind who are being affected by this situation?

Yours in liberty,
        <<< starchild >>>

Dear Starchild;

To do away with the taxpayer funded food box program costing $128 million nationally what are your recommendations to replace this program for those who were receiving the food boxes - TODAY - and providing the supplemenatl food - TODAY?

Your commentez vous is encouraged with real world alternatives as to how this could be done.

For the nonce let's leave out the supposition that ALL 10,000 Elders receiving food boxes are heavy smoking and heavy drinking and heavy lottery ticket buyers.

By California law none are eligible for Food Stamps.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

If they're only paying $400 a month rent (Ron's example, which doesn't
seem like an unreasonable assumption if they've been here a while),
moving to another city might not necessarily save them much money.

I certainly agree that the programs should be discontinued, although
there are many, many other government cuts I would prefer to see made
first, if I got to pick and choose. I've also got a potential litmus
test as to whether one's sympathies are fundamentally more Republican
or Libertarian, which goes something like this:

You hear that an elderly person living on $800 a month with half her
money going to rent is about to have her government food subsidy cut
and may not be able to afford to eat properly. Which of the following
do you feel is a more desirable mental reaction to this news:

-It's her choice to live in an expensive city, and it was her choice
not to save money; quite likely she's still smoking or drinking or
buying lottery tickets with money that could be used for food. I don't
feel sorry for her.

-Damn the statists and their government for bleeding the civil sector
and private charity while discouraging personal responsibility and
fostering government dependency to the point that elderly people are
reduced to such straits!

Yours in liberty,
<<< starchild >>>

> How many of these elders drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes? How many
> of them buy lottery scratch tickets or go to feed the slot-machines in
> the casinos? Life is full of trade-offs. Each of these old persons
> has decided to live in expensive San Francisco than move to a lower
> cost of living area. I don't feel sorry for them at all.
>
> Another problem with continuing these programs is that it gives
> current people a perverse incentive to NOT save for the future.

>
> Dear Derek;
>
> If you have an elderly person living on $800 a month and half goes
> to rent and the other half goes to gas/electric and Medicare and
> medicine not covered by Medicare and medicare premiums and clothing
> and laundry and food and what the heck is going to be left over to
> cut from a budget??? Are you talking literally penny pinching?
>
> As far as expensive to live here to move from here to another less
> expensive place is going to take how much money??? And what kind of
> a first and last deposit and security payment? Secondly what will
> the support services needed by an elder be like in comparison??? Etc
> etc etc. Please cite examples of how this could be done by an Elder
> living on $800 a month with no net dispoable left over???
>
> I asked for real world responses to a real world situation not a
> response which seems to be a little bit to much in the cavalier
> vein.
>
> Now try again and come up with a real world response on how to
> replace food boxes cut from elders who could use the extra can of
> tuna fish and stretch it for a week???
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
> --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com , "Derek Jensen"
> wrote:
> >
> > I volunteer to give one hour of personal financial advice to
> anyone that
> > this affects. I will show them other places in their budget that
> they can
> > cut in order to continue eating healthy meals.
> >
> > Another option is for them to beg their adult children for money.
> This is
> > far more honorable than taking stolen money from the taxpayers.
> >
> > -Derek
> >
> > >
> > > Every penny being paid to any government worker or any worker
> at a
> > > company in a division funded by tax money making over $100K
> should have
> > > their salary reduced and all funds collected should go to this
> feeding
> > > program.
> > >
> > > What do you say?
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-
> discuss@yahoogroups.com]
> > > *On Behalf Of *Ron Getty
> > > *Sent:* Saturday, March 25, 2006 1:00 PM
> > > *To:* Libertarian Yahoo Group
> > > *Subject:* [lpsf-discuss] 1,000 SF Elders Get Monthly Food Boxes
> CUT!! NOW
> > > WHAT!!!
> > >
> > > Dear Everyone;
> > >
> > > This article in todays Examiner prompts me to ask SF
> Libertarians how to
> > > solve this problem - TODAY - RIGHT HERE - IMMEDIATELY because it
> requires an
> > > immediate response.
> > >
> > > Based on budget cuts 1,000 SF seniors who receive a monthly food
> box will
> > > have to be cut from the food box program. These are Elders
> living on - more
> > > likely existing on - social security at about $800 - $1000 a
> month. Think
> > > rent food medical etc first and what if anything is left over.
> > >
> > > Question: What can we as tax-cut approving Libertarians propose
> to do
> > > TODAY - RIGHT NOW - to get food boxes to those Elders who will
> be cut from
> > > the program? Or better yet all the 500,000 Elders on the program
> nationally
> > > so $128 million can be cut from the budget.
> > >
> > > BTW I am not interested in hearing what these Elders could have
> should
> > > have didn't of have done so they would be in those
> circumstances. It is a
> > > currently existing situation - discussing past events of what
> should have
> > > been done will not be considered and is immaterial if your are
> facing going
> > > hungry.....
> > >
> > > http://www.examiner.com/US-
> a58009~1_000_fewer_seniors_to_receive_food_boxes_due_to_federal_budge
> t_cuts.html
> > >
> > > Ron Getty
> > >
> > > SF Libertarian
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > U s government grant< http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=U+s+government+grant&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+pa
> rty&w3=California+politics&c=3&s=74&.sig=5K3E1g4nmGAVDNRdiNIwSg>
> Libertarian
> > > party
> t=ms&k=Libertarian+party&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+party
> &w3=California+politics&c=3&s=74&.sig=GvNXevqD3Tr1DNuuPmVv5w>
> California
> > > politics
> t=ms&k=California+politics&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+par
> ty&w3=California+politics&c=3&s=74&.sig=e8QviIvjQi9cnDhgMOSVng>
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > > - Visit your group "lpsf-
> discuss< http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lpsf-discuss>"
> > > on the web.
> > >
> > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > lpsf-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > > Service .
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> >
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> + Visit your group "lpsf-discuss" on the web.
>
> + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>

>

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Dear Starchild;
   
  Currently 10,000 Elders receive the monthly Food Boxes soem 29,000 are presumed to be eligible. Based on budget cuts 1,000 will have to be cut from the program. And none of the other 19,000 supposed eligible will be considered for the program.
   
  Meals On Wheels would be overwhelmed with having to come up with another 1,000 meals even once a month with enough to stretch out someones dollars for food. The eligibility requirements tend towards the really infirm and housebound. Not the Food Box elderly type.
   
  Any other recommendations on coming up with a plan to replace 10,000 tax payer funded Food Boxes?
   
  Ron Getty
  SF Libertarian
   
WHO WE SERVE
    In order to receive meals and social services from MOWSF a senior must:
   be over 60
   live in San Francisco
   have a physical impairment or medical condition that inhibits shopping for or preparing meals
  Many of the elderly men and women on our program are incapacitated by chronic illnesses that keep them homebound; others are incapable of manipulating the knobs on their stoves because of blindness or arthritis. 75% of our clients live alone and 75% live below the poverty line which means they are living on less than $9,000 a year. Our clients are 61% female, 39% male, 45% Caucasian, 32% African American, 10% Latino, 7% Asian/Pacific Islander and 6% other. 86% of clients are older than 75 and MOWSF is currently serving 6 clients over the age of 100.
   
Starchild <sfdreamer@...> wrote:
  Ron,

I don't know about nationally, but there are places in San Francisco
where one can get free meals. There is even "Meals on Wheels" which
delivers (see http://006425e.netsolhost.com/services_HDM.htm). I would
urge elderly poor who have no other realistic options to turn to
programs like this for help.

Do you have any specific individuals in mind who are being affected by
this situation?

Yours in liberty,
<<< starchild >>>

Derek,

  Wouldn't you feel sorry for someone you thought was losing his or her soul?

  To the extent the person him/herself is responsible, I'd see it as a tragedy that ought to evoke sympathy, and to the extent an outside entity (government) is responsible, I'd see it as an outrage that ought to evoke anger.

      <<< starchild >>>

Starchild:

However, while I agree with each of those statements, each of us must make the best out of whatever situation we find ourselves in, given our own unique talents and abilities. I for one will never allow myself to be dependent on Big Daddy Government. Those who accept the dole end up losing their soul.

-Derek

Starchild:

I agree with both of these statements simultaneously.

   If they&#39;re only paying $400 a month rent \(Ron&#39;s example, which doesn&#39;t

seem like an unreasonable assumption if they've been here a while),
moving to another city might not necessarily save them much money.

   I certainly agree that the programs should be discontinued, although

there are many, many other government cuts I would prefer to see made
first, if I got to pick and choose. I've also got a potential litmus
test as to whether one's sympathies are fundamentally more Republican
or Libertarian, which goes something like this:

   You hear that an elderly person living on $800 a month with half her

money going to rent is about to have her government food subsidy cut
and may not be able to afford to eat properly. Which of the following
do you feel is a more desirable mental reaction to this news:

-It's her choice to live in an expensive city, and it was her choice
not to save money; quite likely she's still smoking or drinking or
buying lottery tickets with money that could be used for food. I don't
feel sorry for her.

-Damn the statists and their government for bleeding the civil sector
and private charity while discouraging personal responsibility and
fostering government dependency to the point that elderly people are
reduced to such straits!

Yours in liberty,
<<< starchild >>>

> How many of these elders drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes? How many
> of them buy lottery scratch tickets or go to feed the slot-machines in
> the casinos? Life is full of trade-offs. Each of these old persons
> has decided to live in expensive San Franciscothan move toa lower

> cost of living area. I don't feel sorry for them at all.
>
> Another problem with continuing these programs is that it gives
> current peoplea perverse incentive to NOT save for the future.

>
> Dear Derek;
>
> If you have an elderly person living on $800 a month and half goes
> to rent and the other half goes to gas/electric and Medicare and
> medicine not covered by Medicare and medicare premiums and clothing
> and laundry and food and what the heck is going to be left over to
> cut from a budget??? Are you talking literally penny pinching?
>
> As far as expensive to live here to move from here to another less
> expensive place is going to take how much money??? And what kind of
> a first and last deposit and security payment? Secondly what will
> the support services needed by an elder be like in comparison??? Etc
> etc etc. Please cite examples of how this could be done by an Elder
> living on $800 a month with no net dispoable left over???
>
> I asked for real world responses to a real world situation not a
> response which seems to be a little bit to much in the cavalier
> vein.
>
> Now try again and come up with a real world response on how to
> replace food boxes cut from elders who could use the extra can of
> tuna fish and stretch it for a week???
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
> --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com , "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I volunteer to give one hour of personal financial advice to
> anyone that
> > this affects.I will show them other places in their budget that
> they can
> > cut in order to continue eating healthy meals.
> >
> > Another option is for them to beg their adult children for money.
> This is
> > far more honorable than taking stolen money from the taxpayers.
> >
> > -Derek
> >
> > >
> > >Every penny being paid to any government worker or any worker
> at a
> > > company in a division funded by tax money making over $100K
> should have
> > > their salary reduced and all funds collected should go to this
> feeding
> > > program.
> > >
> > > What do you say?
> > >
> > >------------------------------
> > >
> > > *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto: lpsf-
> discuss@yahoogroups.com ]
> > > *On Behalf Of *Ron Getty
> > > *Sent:* Saturday, March 25, 2006 1:00 PM
> > > *To:* Libertarian Yahoo Group
> > > *Subject:* [lpsf-discuss] 1,000 SF Elders Get Monthly Food Boxes
> CUT!! NOW
> > > WHAT!!!
> > >
> > > Dear Everyone;
> > >
> > > This article in todays Examiner prompts me to ask SF
> Libertarians how to
> > > solve this problem - TODAY - RIGHT HERE - IMMEDIATELY because it
> requires an
> > > immediate response.
> > >
> > > Based on budget cuts 1,000 SF seniors who receive a monthly food
> box will
> > > have to be cut from the food box program. These are Elders
> living on - more
> > > likely existing on - social security at about $800 - $1000 a
> month. Think
> > > rent food medical etc first and what if anything is left over.
> > >
> > > Question: What can we as tax-cut approving Libertarians propose
> to do
> > > TODAY - RIGHT NOW - to get food boxes to those Elders who will
> be cut from
> > > the program? Or better yet all the 500,000 Elders on the program
> nationally
> > > so $128 million can be cut from the budget.
> > >
> > > BTW I am not interested in hearing what these Elders could have
> should
> > > have didn't of have done so they would be in those
> circumstances. It is a
> > > currently existing situation - discussing past events of what
> should have
> > > been done will not be considered and is immaterial if your are
> facing going
> > > hungry.....
> > >
> > > http://www.examiner.com/US-
> a58009~1_000_fewer_seniors_to_receive_food_boxes_due_to_federal_budge
> t_cuts.html
> > >
> > > Ron Getty
> > >
> > > SF Libertarian
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > U s government grant< http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=U+s+government+grant&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+pa
> rty&w3=California+politics&c=3&s=74&.sig=5K3E1g4nmGAVDNRdiNIwSg>
> Libertarian
> > > party< http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=Libertarian+party&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+party
> &w3=California+politics&c=3&s=74&.sig=GvNXevqD3Tr1DNuuPmVv5w>
> California
> > > politics< http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=California+politics&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+par
> ty&w3=California+politics&c=3&s=74&.sig=e8QviIvjQi9cnDhgMOSVng>
> > >
> > >------------------------------
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > >-Visit your group "lpsf-
> discuss< http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lpsf-discuss>"
> > >on the web.
> > >
> > >-To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > lpsf-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<lpsf-discuss-
> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe >
> > >
> > >-Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > >Service < http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > >
> > >------------------------------
> > >
> >
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
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>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> + Visit your group "lpsf-discuss" on the web.
>
> + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> lpsf-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
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>

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YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

+ Visit your group "lpsf-discuss" on the web.

+ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Dear Derek and Starchild;
   
  After Katrina drove out thousands from their home Dr. Phil who is from the South went and visited with several families who were now HAVING to accept a handout because they had nothing - AT THIS TIME.
   
  The men of the household were extremely embarassed and ashamed because they couldn't provide for their familes like they felt a Southern man was supposed to.
   
  Would you put these men in the accept the dole and lose your soul category?
   
  If so I believe you need to try having some empathy NOT sympathy. Because I can guarantee you as soon as they could they would be the man providing for their familes like they felt a Southern man should.
   
  Ron Getty
  SF Libertarian

Starchild <sfdreamer@...> wrote:
  Derek,

Wouldn't you feel sorry for someone you thought was losing his or her
soul?

To the extent the person him/herself is responsible, I'd see it as a
tragedy that ought to evoke sympathy, and to the extent an outside
entity (government) is responsible, I'd see it as an outrage that ought
to evoke anger.

<<< starchild >>>

Dear Starchild;
   
  Great!!
   
  Now how do we get the word to the 10,000 Elders receiving the Food Boxes and the other 19,000 eligible - with the necessary word breaks and locations and times and eligibility standards and transportation factors etc etc etc???
   
  Ron Getty
  SF Libertarian

Starchild <sfdreamer@...> wrote:
  Ron,

If the people in question do not have conditions that inhibit them
from shopping or preparing meals, then there are many more resources
available to them. Here is one page that lists a bunch (why the person
who laid out the page didn't use any line breaks or tabs I'm not sure,
but there's some good resources here nevertheless):
http://www.csrsf.com/Community/Food.html .

Yours in liberty,
<<< starchild >>>

Ron,

  If the people in question do not have conditions that inhibit them from shopping or preparing meals, then there are many more resources available to them. Here is one page that lists a bunch (why the person who laid out the page didn't use any line breaks or tabs I'm not sure, but there's some good resources here nevertheless): http://www.csrsf.com/Community/Food.html .

Yours in liberty,
        <<< starchild >>>

Dear Starchild;

Currently 10,000 Elders receive the monthly Food Boxes soem 29,000 are presumed to be eligible. Based on budget cuts 1,000 will have to be cut from the program. And none of the other 19,000 supposed eligible will be considered for the program.

Meals On Wheels would be overwhelmed with having to come up with another 1,000 meals even once a month with enough to stretch out someones dollars for food. The eligibility requirements tend towards the really infirm and housebound. Not the Food Box elderly type.

Any other recommendations on coming up with a plan to replace 10,000 tax payer funded Food Boxes?

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

WHO WE SERVE

In order to receive meals and social services from MOWSF a senior must:

• be over 60
• live in San Francisco
• have a physical impairment or medical condition that inhibits shopping for or preparing meals

Many of the elderly men and women on our program are incapacitated by chronic illnesses that keep them homebound; others are incapable of manipulating the knobs on their stoves because of blindness or arthritis. 75% of our clients live alone and 75% live below the poverty line which means they are living on less than $9,000 a year.

Our clients are 61% female, 39% male, 45% Caucasian, 32% African American, 10% Latino, 7% Asian/Pacific Islander and 6% other. 86% of clients are older than 75 and MOWSF is currently serving 6 clients over the age of 100.

Starchild <sfdreamer@...> wrote:

Ron,

I don't know about nationally, but there are places in San Francisco
where one can get free meals. There is even "Meals on Wheels" which
delivers (see http://006425e.netsolhost.com/services_HDM.htm). I would
urge elderly poor who have no other realistic options to turn to
programs like this for help.

Do you have any specific individuals in mind who are being affected by
this situation?

Yours in liberty,
<<< starchild >>>

> Dear Starchild;
>
> To do away with the taxpayer funded food box program costing $128
> million nationally what are your recommendations to replace this
> program for those who were receiving the food boxes - TODAY - and
> providing the supplemenatl food - TODAY?
>
> Your commentez vous is encouraged with real world alternatives as to
> how this could be done.
>
> For the nonce let's leave out the supposition that ALL 10,000 Elders
> receiving food boxes are heavy smoking and heavy drinking and heavy
> lottery ticket buyers.
>
> By California law none are eligible for Food Stamps.
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
> Starchild wrote:
>
> If they're only paying $400 a month rent (Ron's example, which doesn't
> seem like an unreasonable assumption if they've been here a while),
> moving to another city might not necessarily save them much money.
>
> I certainly agree that the programs should be discontinued, although
> there are many, many other government cuts I would prefer to see made
> first, if I got to pick and choose. I've also got a potential litmus
> test as to whether one's sympathies are fundamentally more Republican
> or Libertarian, which goes something like this:
>
> You hear that an elderly person living on $800 a month with half her
> money going to rent is about to have her government food subsidy cut
> and may not be able to afford to eat properly. Which of the following
> do you feel is a more desirable mental reaction to this news:
>
> -It's her choice to live in an expensive city, and it was her choice
> not to save money; quite likely she's still smoking or drinking or
> buying lottery tickets with money that could be used for food. I don't
> feel sorry for her.
>
> -Damn the statists and their government for bleeding the civil sector
> and private charity while discouraging personal responsibility and
> fostering government dependency to the point that elderly people are
> reduced to such straits!
>
> Yours in liberty,
> <<< starchild >>>
>
> > How many of these elders drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes? How many
> > of them buy lottery scratch tickets or go to feed the slot-machines
> in
> > the casinos? Life is full of trade-offs. Each of these old persons
> > has decided to live in expensive San Francisco than move to a lower
> > cost of living area. I don't feel sorry for them at all.
> >
> > Another problem with continuing these programs is that it gives
> > current people a perverse incentive to NOT save for the future.
>
> >
> > Dear Derek;
> >
> > If you have an elderly person living on $800 a month and half goes
> > to rent and the other half goes to gas/electric and Medicare and
> > medicine not covered by Medicare and medicare premiums and clothing
> > and laundry and food and what the heck is going to be left over to
> > cut from a budget??? Are you talking literally penny pinching?
> >
> > As far as expensive to live here to move from here to another less
> > expensive place is going to take how much money??? And what kind of
> > a first and last deposit and security payment? Secondly what will
> > the support services needed by an elder be like in comparison??? Etc
> > etc etc. Please cite examples of how this could be done by an Elder
> > living on $800 a month with no net dispoable left over???
> >
> > I asked for real world responses to a real world situation not a
> > response which seems to be a little bit to much in the cavalier
> > vein.
> >
> > Now try again and come up with a real world response on how to
> > replace food boxes cut from elders who could use the extra can of
> > tuna fish and stretch it for a week???
> >
> > Ron Getty
> > SF Libertarian
> >
> > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com , "Derek Jensen"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I volunteer to give one hour of personal financial advice to
> > anyone that
> > > this affects. I will show them other places in their budget that
> > they can
> > > cut in order to continue eating healthy meals.
> > >
> > > Another option is for them to beg their adult children for money.
> > This is
> > > far more honorable than taking stolen money from the taxpayers.
> > >
> > > -Derek
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Every penny being paid to any government worker or any worker
> > at a
> > > > company in a division funded by tax money making over $100K
> > should have
> > > > their salary reduced and all funds collected should go to this
> > feeding
> > > > program.
> > > >
> > > > What do you say?
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-
> > discuss@yahoogroups.com]
> > > > *On Behalf Of *Ron Getty
> > > > *Sent:* Saturday, March 25, 2006 1:00 PM
> > > > *To:* Libertarian Yahoo Group
> > > > *Subject:* [lpsf-discuss] 1,000 SF Elders Get Monthly Food Boxes
> > CUT!! NOW
> > > > WHAT!!!
> > > >
> > > > Dear Everyone;
> > > >
> > > > This article in todays Examiner prompts me to ask SF
> > Libertarians how to
> > > > solve this problem - TODAY - RIGHT HERE - IMMEDIATELY because it
> > requires an
> > > > immediate response.
> > > >
> > > > Based on budget cuts 1,000 SF seniors who receive a monthly food
> > box will
> > > > have to be cut from the food box program. These are Elders
> > living on - more
> > > > likely existing on - social security at about $800 - $1000 a
> > month. Think
> > > > rent food medical etc first and what if anything is left over.
> > > >
> > > > Question: What can we as tax-cut approving Libertarians propose
> > to do
> > > > TODAY - RIGHT NOW - to get food boxes to those Elders who will
> > be cut from
> > > > the program? Or better yet all the 500,000 Elders on the program
> > nationally
> > > > so $128 million can be cut from the budget.
> > > >
> > > > BTW I am not interested in hearing what these Elders could have
> > should
> > > > have didn't of have done so they would be in those
> > circumstances. It is a
> > > > currently existing situation - discussing past events of what
> > should have
> > > > been done will not be considered and is immaterial if your are
> > facing going
> > > > hungry.....
> > > >
> > > > http://www.examiner.com/US-
> > a58009~1_000_fewer_seniors_to_receive_food_boxes_due_to_federal_budge
> > t_cuts.html
> > > >
> > > > Ron Getty
> > > >
> > > > SF Libertarian
> > > >
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > U s government grant< http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > t=ms&k=U+s+government+grant&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+pa
> > rty&w3=California+politics&c=3&s=74&.sig=5K3E1g4nmGAVDNRdiNIwSg>
> > Libertarian
> > > > party
> > t=ms&k=Libertarian+party&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+party
> > &w3=California+politics&c=3&s=74&.sig=GvNXevqD3Tr1DNuuPmVv5w>
> > California
> > > > politics
> > t=ms&k=California+politics&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+par
> > ty&w3=California+politics&c=3&s=74&.sig=e8QviIvjQi9cnDhgMOSVng>
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
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> > discuss< http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lpsf-discuss>"
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> > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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> > > > Service .
> > > >
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> > >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
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> >
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > + Visit your group "lpsf-discuss" on the web.
> >
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> Service.
> >
>
> >
>

>
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> + Visit your group "lpsf-discuss" on the web.
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My point was that just because someone has a small income, it doesn't mean they do not have wasteful spending habits which Derek might help them identify.

More importantly, I agree with the point Derek made about moving to an area with a lower cost of living. For example, looking at craigslist, I see average prices for rentals in Fresno are about half that in San Francisco. And prices in Oklahoma City are about half that of Fresno.

If someone is spending half of their income on rent, it looks like such a move might be a savings of 25%-37% of their income. Would that be enough to make of for the loss of a food program?

-- Steve

Dear Steve;
   
  Great!!! Now how do you get someone of limited income to okalhoma city or even Fresno and come up with the first last and security deposits?? Small but minor details???
   
  BTW having been through Fresno my memories of Fresno are it's 11:00 PM at night and it's 90 degrees out!!!!!!!!! If the Elders moved to Fresno you'd bettah hope the rent included air-conditioning and enough income to pay a super-charged electric bill. Whooo Hooo!
   
  If an Elder is on a small income and they are willing to go through the embarassment of standing in line for food boxes I'm gonna guess they are not rashly spending their money on wine women and song.
   
  Maybe those casino coach trips to Cache Creek but luxuries like cigarettes at $5.00 a box??? Naaahhh!
   
  But we'll know bettah after Derek Jensen does his freeby financial planning seminar with a carefully selected Food Box Elder and reports the results back to us on his personal seminar.
   
  Right Derek???
   
  Ron Getty
  SF Libertarian
   
Steve Dekorte <steve@...> wrote:
  

Dear Stve DeKorte;

These people are Elderly and based on California law they are not
eligible for Food Stamps.

The request was for ways in which to replace the tax payer funded
food box program.

What are your ways to do this???

My point was that just because someone has a small income, it doesn't
mean they do not have wasteful spending habits which Derek might help
them identify.

More importantly, I agree with the point Derek made about moving to an
area with a lower cost of living. For example, looking at craigslist, I
see average prices for rentals in Fresno are about half that in San
Francisco. And prices in Oklahoma City are about half that of Fresno.

If someone is spending half of their income on rent, it looks like such
a move might be a savings of 25%-37% of their income. Would that be
enough to make of for the loss of a food program?

-- Steve

  SPONSORED LINKS
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Ron,

  In my comments to Derek, I did not mean to suggest that I believe those who accept the dole will automatically lose their soul. I do think habitual dependence tends to be soul-deadening, but then so does working 90 hours a week, imho! (Of course the two habits are not moral equivalents as far as others are concerned.)

  I think there is a lot of overlap between empathy and sympathy (see definitions below). If there is a difference, I think it is that empathy means being able to see yourself in the other person's shoes. But sympathy should not be underrated. Just because one cannot see oneself in someone else's situation does not necessarily mean one is less loving.

  After all, if you can only love someone (or something) to the extent you can see in it a reflection of yourself, that's not as loving as being able to feel warmhearted toward someone you see as much different from yourself, now is it?

  If I just relied on empathy, I would have less compassion toward the Southern men you describe than by relying on sympathy, since it's hard for me to share their traditional sexist values about males having a duty to be the breadwinners.

Yours in liberty,
        <<< starchild >>>

em·pa·thy
1. Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives. See Synonyms at pity .
2. The attribution of one's own feelings to an object.

sym·pa·thy
1. a. A relationship or an affinity between people or things in which whatever affects one correspondingly affects the other.
  b. Mutual understanding or affection arising from this relationship or affinity.
2. a. The act or power of sharing the feelings of another.
  b. A feeling or an expression of pity or sorrow for the distress of another; compassion or commiseration. Often used in the plural. See Synonyms at pity .
3. Harmonious agreement; accord: He is in sympathy with their beliefs.
4. A feeling of loyalty; allegiance. Often used in the plural: His sympathies lie with his family.
5. Physiology. A relation between parts or organs by which a disease or disorder in one induces an effect in the other.

Dear Derek and Starchild;

After Katrina drove out thousands from their home Dr. Phil who is from the South went and visited with several families who were now HAVING to accept a handout because they had nothing - AT THIS TIME.

The men of the household were extremely embarassed and ashamed because they couldn't provide for their familes like they felt a Southern man was supposed to.

Would you put these men in the accept the dole and lose your soul category?

If so I believe you need to try having some empathy NOT sympathy. Because I can guarantee you as soon as they could they would be the man providing for their familes like they felt a Southern man should.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

Derek,

Wouldn't you feel sorry for someone you thought was losing his or her
soul?

To the extent the person him/herself is responsible, I'd see it as a
tragedy that ought to evoke sympathy, and to the extent an outside
entity (government) is responsible, I'd see it as an outrage that ought
to evoke anger.

<<< starchild >>>

> Starchild:
>
> However, while I agree with each of those statements, each of us must
> make the best out of whatever situation we find ourselves in, given
> our own unique talents and abilities. I for one will never allow
> myself to be dependent on Big Daddy Government. Those who accept the
> dole end up losing their soul.
>
> -Derek
>
>
>
> Starchild:
>
> I agree with both of these statements simultaneously.
>
>
>
> If they're only paying $400 a month rent (Ron's example, which
> doesn't
> seem like an unreasonable assumption if they've been here a while),
> moving to another city might not necessarily save them much money.
>
> I certainly agree that the programs should be discontinued,
> although
> there are many, many other government cuts I would prefer to see made
> first, if I got to pick and choose. I've also got a potential litmus
> test as to whether one's sympathies are fundamentally more Republican
> or Libertarian, which goes something like this:
>
> You hear that an elderly person living on $800 a month with
> half her
> money going to rent is about to have her government food subsidy cut
> and may not be able to afford to eat properly. Which of the following
> do you feel is a more desirable mental reaction to this news:
>
> -It's her choice to live in an expensive city, and it was her choice
> not to save money; quite likely she's still smoking or drinking or
> buying lottery tickets with money that could be used for food. I don't
> feel sorry for her.
>
> -Damn the statists and their government for bleeding the civil sector
> and private charity while discouraging personal responsibility and
> fostering government dependency to the point that elderly people are
> reduced to such straits!
>
> Yours in liberty,
> <<< starchild >>>
>
> > How many of these elders drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes? How many
> > of them buy lottery scratch tickets or go to feed the slot-machines
> in
> > the casinos? Life is full of trade-offs. Each of these old persons
> > has decided to live in expensive San Franciscothan move toa lower
>
> > cost of living area. I don't feel sorry for them at all.
> >
> > Another problem with continuing these programs is that it gives
> > current peoplea perverse incentive to NOT save for the future.
>
> >
> > Dear Derek;
> >
> > If you have an elderly person living on $800 a month and half goes
> > to rent and the other half goes to gas/electric and Medicare and
> > medicine not covered by Medicare and medicare premiums and clothing
> > and laundry and food and what the heck is going to be left over to
> > cut from a budget??? Are you talking literally penny pinching?
> >
> > As far as expensive to live here to move from here to another less
> > expensive place is going to take how much money??? And what kind of
> > a first and last deposit and security payment? Secondly what will
> > the support services needed by an elder be like in comparison??? Etc
> > etc etc. Please cite examples of how this could be done by an Elder
> > living on $800 a month with no net dispoable left over???
> >
> > I asked for real world responses to a real world situation not a
> > response which seems to be a little bit to much in the cavalier
> > vein.
> >
> > Now try again and come up with a real world response on how to
> > replace food boxes cut from elders who could use the extra can of
> > tuna fish and stretch it for a week???
> >
> > Ron Getty
> > SF Libertarian
> >
> > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com , "Derek Jensen"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I volunteer to give one hour of personal financial advice to
> > anyone that
> > > this affects.I will show them other places in their budget that
> > they can
> > > cut in order to continue eating healthy meals.
> > >
> > > Another option is for them to beg their adult children for money.
> > This is
> > > far more honorable than taking stolen money from the taxpayers.
> > >
> > > -Derek
> > >
> > > >
> > > >Every penny being paid to any government worker or any worker
> > at a
> > > > company in a division funded by tax money making over $100K
> > should have
> > > > their salary reduced and all funds collected should go to this
> > feeding
> > > > program.
> > > >
> > > > What do you say?
> > > >
> > > >------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto: lpsf-
> > discuss@yahoogroups.com ]
> > > > *On Behalf Of *Ron Getty
> > > > *Sent:* Saturday, March 25, 2006 1:00 PM
> > > > *To:* Libertarian Yahoo Group
> > > > *Subject:* [lpsf-discuss] 1,000 SF Elders Get Monthly Food Boxes
> > CUT!! NOW
> > > > WHAT!!!
> > > >
> > > > Dear Everyone;
> > > >
> > > > This article in todays Examiner prompts me to ask SF
> > Libertarians how to
> > > > solve this problem - TODAY - RIGHT HERE - IMMEDIATELY because it
> > requires an
> > > > immediate response.
> > > >
> > > > Based on budget cuts 1,000 SF seniors who receive a monthly food
> > box will
> > > > have to be cut from the food box program. These are Elders
> > living on - more
> > > > likely existing on - social security at about $800 - $1000 a
> > month. Think
> > > > rent food medical etc first and what if anything is left over.
> > > >
> > > > Question: What can we as tax-cut approving Libertarians propose
> > to do
> > > > TODAY - RIGHT NOW - to get food boxes to those Elders who will
> > be cut from
> > > > the program? Or better yet all the 500,000 Elders on the program
> > nationally
> > > > so $128 million can be cut from the budget.
> > > >
> > > > BTW I am not interested in hearing what these Elders could have
> > should
> > > > have didn't of have done so they would be in those
> > circumstances. It is a
> > > > currently existing situation - discussing past events of what
> > should have
> > > > been done will not be considered and is immaterial if your are
> > facing going
> > > > hungry.....
> > > >
> > > > http://www.examiner.com/US-
> > a58009~1_000_fewer_seniors_to_receive_food_boxes_due_to_federal_budge
> > t_cuts.html
> > > >
> > > > Ron Getty
> > > >
> > > > SF Libertarian
> > > >
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > U s government grant< http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > t=ms&k=U+s+government+grant&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+pa
> > rty&w3=California+politics&c=3&s=74&.sig=5K3E1g4nmGAVDNRdiNIwSg>
> > Libertarian
> > > > party< http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > t=ms&k=Libertarian+party&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+party
> > &w3=California+politics&c=3&s=74&.sig=GvNXevqD3Tr1DNuuPmVv5w>
> > California
> > > > politics< http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > t=ms&k=California+politics&w1=U+s+government+grant&w2=Libertarian+par
> > ty&w3=California+politics&c=3&s=74&.sig=e8QviIvjQi9cnDhgMOSVng>
> > > >
> > > >------------------------------
> > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > >
> > > >-Visit your group "lpsf-
> > discuss< http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lpsf-discuss>"
> > > >on the web.
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> > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe >
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> > > >Service < http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > > >
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Ron,

  Hopefully the government agency supplying the Food Boxes will inform people who were using the program or who might have been eligible and wanted to use it but not been allowed to do so, of alternate resources. If you can provide their address, I will write them a letter including the link that I found below and ask that they make this information available to people who may be in need of it. I will also suggest that instead of just lobbying to get their funding back, that they suggest and lobby for other government cuts that could be made instead.

Yours in liberty,
        <<< starchild >>>

Dear Starchild;

Great!!

Now how do we get the word to the 10,000 Elders receiving the Food Boxes and the other 19,000 eligible - with the necessary word breaks and locations and times and eligibility standards and transportation factors etc etc etc???

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

Starchild <sfdreamer@...> wrote:

Ron,

If the people in question do not have conditions that inhibit them
from shopping or preparing meals, then there are many more resources
available to them. Here is one page that lists a bunch (why the person
who laid out the page didn't use any line breaks or tabs I'm not sure,
but there's some good resources here nevertheless):
http://www.csrsf.com/Community/Food.html .

Yours in liberty,
<<< starchild >>>

> Dear Starchild;
>
> Currently 10,000 Elders receive the monthly Food Boxes soem 29,000
> are presumed to be eligible. Based on budget cuts 1,000 will have to
> be cut from the program. And none of the other 19,000 supposed
> eligible will be considered for the program.
>
> Meals On Wheels would be overwhelmed with having to come up with
> another 1,000 meals even once a month with enough to stretch out
> someones dollars for food. The eligibility requirements tend towards
> the really infirm and housebound. Not the Food Box elderly type.
>
> Any other recommendations on coming up with a plan to replace 10,000
> tax payer funded Food Boxes?
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
>
> WHO WE SERVE
>
> In order to receive meals and social services from MOWSF a senior must:
>
> • be over 60
> • live in San Francisco
> • have a physical impairment or medical condition that inhibits
> shopping for or preparing meals
>
> Many of the elderly men and women on our program are incapacitated by
> chronic illnesses that keep them homebound; others are incapable of
> manipulating the knobs on their stoves because of blindness or
> arthritis. 75% of our clients live alone and 75% live below the
> poverty line which means they are living on less than $9,000 a year.
>
> Our clients are 61% female, 39% male, 45% Caucasian, 32% African
> American, 10% Latino, 7% Asian/Pacific Islander and 6% other. 86% of
> clients are older than 75 and MOWSF is currently serving 6 clients
> over the age of 100.
>
>
>
> Starchild wrote:
>
> Ron,
>
> I don't know about nationally, but there are places in San Francisco
> where one can get free meals. There is even "Meals on Wheels" which
> delivers (see http://006425e.netsolhost.com/services_HDM.htm). I would
> urge elderly poor who have no other realistic options to turn to
> programs like this for help.
>
> Do you have any specific individuals in mind who are being affected by
> this situation?
>
> Yours in liberty,
> <<< starchild >>>
>
> > Dear Starchild;
> >
> > To do away with the taxpayer funded food box program costing $128
> > million nationally what are your recommendations to replace this
> > program for those who were receiving the food boxes - TODAY - and
> > providing the supplemenatl food - TODAY?
> >
> > Your commentez vous is encouraged with real world alternatives as to
> > how this could be done.
> >
> > For the nonce let's leave out the supposition that ALL 10,000 Elders
> > receiving food boxes are heavy smoking and heavy drinking and heavy
> > lottery ticket buyers.
> >
> > By California law none are eligible for Food Stamps.
> >
> > Ron Getty
> > SF Libertarian
> >
> > Starchild wrote:
> >
> > If they're only paying $400 a month rent (Ron's example, which
> doesn't
> > seem like an unreasonable assumption if they've been here a while),
> > moving to another city might not necessarily save them much money.
> >
> > I certainly agree that the programs should be discontinued, although
> > there are many, many other government cuts I would prefer to see made
> > first, if I got to pick and choose. I've also got a potential litmus
> > test as to whether one's sympathies are fundamentally more Republican
> > or Libertarian, which goes something like this:
> >
> > You hear that an elderly person living on $800 a month with half her
> > money going to rent is about to have her government food subsidy cut
> > and may not be able to afford to eat properly. Which of the following
> > do you feel is a more desirable mental reaction to this news:
> >
> > -It's her choice to live in an expensive city, and it was her choice
> > not to save money; quite likely she's still smoking or drinking or
> > buying lottery tickets with money that could be used for food. I
> don't
> > feel sorry for her.
> >
> > -Damn the statists and their government for bleeding the civil sector
> > and private charity while discouraging personal responsibility and
> > fostering government dependency to the point that elderly people are
> > reduced to such straits!
> >
> > Yours in liberty,
> > <<< starchild >>>
> >
> > > How many of these elders drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes? How
> many
> > > of them buy lottery scratch tickets or go to feed the slot-machines
> > in
> > > the casinos? Life is full of trade-offs. Each of these old
> persons
> > > has decided to live in expensive San Francisco than move to a lower
> > > cost of living area. I don't feel sorry for them at all.
> > >
> > > Another problem with continuing these programs is that it gives
> > > current people a perverse incentive to NOT save for the future.
> >
> > >
> > > Dear Derek;
> > >
> > > If you have an elderly person living on $800 a month and half goes
> > > to rent and the other half goes to gas/electric and Medicare and
> > > medicine not covered by Medicare and medicare premiums and clothing
> > > and laundry and food and what the heck is going to be left over to
> > > cut from a budget??? Are you talking literally penny pinching?
> > >
> > > As far as expensive to live here to move from here to another less
> > > expensive place is going to take how much money??? And what kind of
> > > a first and last deposit and security payment? Secondly what will
> > > the support services needed by an elder be like in comparison???
> Etc
> > > etc etc. Please cite examples of how this could be done by an Elder
> > > living on $800 a month with no net dispoable left over???
> > >
> > > I asked for real world responses to a real world situation not a
> > > response which seems to be a little bit to much in the cavalier
> > > vein.
> > >
> > > Now try again and come up with a real world response on how to
> > > replace food boxes cut from elders who could use the extra can of
> > > tuna fish and stretch it for a week???
> > >
> > > Ron Getty
> > > SF Libertarian
> > >
> > > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com , "Derek Jensen"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I volunteer to give one hour of personal financial advice to
> > > anyone that
> > > > this affects. I will show them other places in their budget that
> > > they can
> > > > cut in order to continue eating healthy meals.
> > > >
> > > > Another option is for them to beg their adult children for money.
> > > This is
> > > > far more honorable than taking stolen money from the taxpayers.
> > > >
> > > > -Derek
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Every penny being paid to any government worker or any worker
> > > at a
> > > > > company in a division funded by tax money making over $100K
> > > should have
> > > > > their salary reduced and all funds collected should go to this
> > > feeding
> > > > > program.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you say?
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-
> > > discuss@yahoogroups.com]
> > > > > *On Behalf Of *Ron Getty
> > > > > *Sent:* Saturday, March 25, 2006 1:00 PM
> > > > > *To:* Libertarian Yahoo Group
> > > > > *Subject:* [lpsf-discuss] 1,000 SF Elders Get Monthly Food
> Boxes
> > > CUT!! NOW
> > > > > WHAT!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Everyone;
> > > > >
> > > > > This article in todays Examiner prompts me to ask SF
> > > Libertarians how to
> > > > > solve this problem - TODAY - RIGHT HERE - IMMEDIATELY because
> it
> > > requires an
> > > > > immediate response.
> > > > >
> > > > > Based on budget cuts 1,000 SF seniors who receive a monthly
> food
> > > box will
> > > > > have to be cut from the food box program. These are Elders
> > > living on - more
> > > > > likely existing on - social security at about $800 - $1000 a
> > > month. Think
> > > > > rent food medical etc first and what if anything is left over.
> > > > >
> > > > > Question: What can we as tax-cut approving Libertarians propose
> > > to do
> > > > > TODAY - RIGHT NOW - to get food boxes to those Elders who will
> > > be cut from
> > > > > the program? Or better yet all the 500,000 Elders on the
> program
> > > nationally
> > > > > so $128 million can be cut from the budget.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW I am not interested in hearing what these Elders could have
> > > should
> > > > > have didn't of have done so they would be in those
> > > circumstances. It is a
> > > > > currently existing situation - discussing past events of what
> > > should have
> > > > > been done will not be considered and is immaterial if your are
> > > facing going
> > > > > hungry.....
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.examiner.com/US-
> > >
> a58009~1_000_fewer_seniors_to_receive_food_boxes_due_to_federal_budge
> > > t_cuts.html
> > > > >
> > > > > Ron Getty
> > > > >
> > > > > SF Libertarian
> > > > >
> > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
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Dear Starchild;
   
  Okie Dokie. I really did not think you thought as Derek thought I just responded that way in the salutation becasue you had responded to Derek and was referring to you as the author of the anti-dole and lost soul Derek missive.
   
  For the Southern guys being bread winners it's their inherited hundreds of years old inculcated blood line culture and they can't help themselves as such. However classifying their traditional inherited cultural beliefs as sexist maleism - why Bubba and Luke and Earl and Boo and Gayle might take umbrage!!!
   
  As the old saying goes about walking a mile in the other guys shoes - don't classify traditional Southern males who are the culturally traditional bread winners as being sexist until you have walked a mile in their sexist Southern shoes as a Southern gentleman breadwinner. ( Hunh???)
   
  What the heck - you know what I mean....
   
  Sympathy is my jam and empathy is my butter and Southern gentleman is my bread - or something like that there Gomer....
   
  Ron Getty
  SF Libertarian

Starchild <sfdreamer@...> wrote:
  Ron,

In my comments to Derek, I did not mean to suggest that I believe
those who accept the dole will automatically lose their soul. I do
think habitual dependence tends to be soul-deadening, but then so does
working 90 hours a week, imho! (Of course the two habits are not moral
equivalents as far as others are concerned.)

I think there is a lot of overlap between empathy and sympathy (see
definitions below). If there is a difference, I think it is that
empathy means being able to see yourself in the other person's shoes.
But sympathy should not be underrated. Just because one cannot see
oneself in someone else's situation does not necessarily mean one is
less loving.

After all, if you can only love someone (or something) to the extent
you can see in it a reflection of yourself, that's not as loving as
being able to feel warmhearted toward someone you see as much different
from yourself, now is it?

If I just relied on empathy, I would have less compassion toward the
Southern men you describe than by relying on sympathy, since it's hard
for me to share their traditional sexist values about males having a
duty to be the breadwinners.

Yours in liberty,
<<< starchild >>>

em�pa�thy
1. Identification with and understanding of another's situation,
feelings, and motives. See Synonyms at pity .
2. The attribution of one's own feelings to an object.

sym�pa�thy
1. a. A relationship or an affinity between people or things in which
whatever affects one correspondingly affects the other.
b. Mutual understanding or affection arising from this relationship or
affinity.
2. a. The act or power of sharing the feelings of another.
b. A feeling or an expression of pity or sorrow for the distress of
another; compassion or commiseration. Often used in the plural. See
Synonyms at pity .
3. Harmonious agreement; accord: He is in sympathy with their beliefs.
4. A feeling of loyalty; allegiance. Often used in the plural: His
sympathies lie with his family.
5. Physiology. A relation between parts or organs by which a disease or
disorder in one induces an effect in the other.

Dear Starchild;
   
  Also when you write try to go easy on the " thou shalt lobby for cuts in other government programs instead " The cuts are being done nationally so of the 500,000 Food Box Elders maybe as many as 50,000 Food Box Elders may be cut from the program.
   
  Of course I would be more delighted if concurrently all tax payer funded Corporate Welfare programs were cut as well. As Cato points out $75 Billion is being spent on Corporate Welfare:
   
  http://www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb105-9.html
   
  While the Food Box for Elders gets $128 Million. Makes you wonder who has the better lobbyists?
   
        San Francisco Food Bank mailing address and contact information:
        
            Paul Ash - Executive Director
            900 Pennsylvania Ave., San Francisco, CA 94107
            Telephone: (415) 282-1900 ext. 0

  http://www.sffoodbank.org/
   
  Ron Getty
  SF Libertarian
  
Starchild <sfdreamer@...> wrote:
  Ron,

Hopefully the government agency supplying the Food Boxes will inform
people who were using the program or who might have been eligible and
wanted to use it but not been allowed to do so, of alternate resources.
If you can provide their address, I will write them a letter including
the link that I found below and ask that they make this information
available to people who may be in need of it. I will also suggest that
instead of just lobbying to get their funding back, that they suggest
and lobby for other government cuts that could be made instead.

Yours in liberty,
<<< starchild >>>

Dear derek;

They did not have because the flood wiped it all out. Their cards
with whatever was on them were used for temporary shelyet until the
credit ran out.

It was no story as I watched the interviews and Dr. Phil asked those
questions.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@...>
wrote:

Ron:

These "Southern men" had zero financial assets to sell? If so,

how could

that be? Did they not have credit cards? If not, how could that

be?

Something in Dr. Phil's story doesn't add up.

-Derek

>
> Dear Derek and Starchild;
>
> After Katrina drove out thousands from their home Dr. Phil who

is from the

> South went and visited with several families who were now

*HAVING* to

> accept a handout because they had nothing - *AT THIS TIME*.
>
> The men of the household were extremely *embarassed and ashamed*

because

> they couldn't provide for their familes like they felt a

Southern man was

> supposed to.
>
> Would you put these men in the accept the dole and lose your soul
> category?
>
> If so I believe you need to try having some empathy NOT

sympathy. Because

> I can guarantee you as soon as they could they would be the man

providing

> for their familes like they felt a Southern man should.
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
>
> *Starchild <sfdreamer@...>* wrote:
>
> Derek,
>
> Wouldn't you feel sorry for someone you thought was losing his

or her

> soul?
>
> To the extent the person him/herself is responsible, I'd see it

as a

> tragedy that ought to evoke sympathy, and to the extent an

outside

> entity (government) is responsible, I'd see it as an outrage

that ought

> to evoke anger.
>
> <<< starchild >>>
>
>
>
> > Starchild:
> >
> > However, while I agree with each of those statements, each of

us must

> > make the best out of whatever situation we find ourselves in,

given

> > our own unique talents and abilities. I for one will never

allow

> > myself to be dependent on Big Daddy Government. Those who

accept the

> > dole end up losing their soul.
> >
> > -Derek
> >
> >
> >
> > Starchild:
> >
> > I agree with both of these statements simultaneously.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > If they're only paying $400 a month rent (Ron's

example, which

> > doesn't
> > seem like an unreasonable assumption if they've been here a

while),

> > moving to another city might not necessarily save them much

money.

> >
> > I certainly agree that the programs should be

discontinued,

> > although
> > there are many, many other government cuts I would prefer to

see made

> > first, if I got to pick and choose. I've also got a potential

litmus

> > test as to whether one's sympathies are fundamentally more

Republican

> > or Libertarian, which goes something like this:
> >
> > You hear that an elderly person living on $800 a month

with

> > half her
> > money going to rent is about to have her government food

subsidy cut

> > and may not be able to afford to eat properly. Which of the

following

> > do you feel is a more desirable mental reaction to this news:
> >
> > -It's her choice to live in an expensive city, and it was her

choice

> > not to save money; quite likely she's still smoking or

drinking or

> > buying lottery tickets with money that could be used for food.

I don't

> > feel sorry for her.
> >
> > -Damn the statists and their government for bleeding the civil

sector

> > and private charity while discouraging personal responsibility

and

> > fostering government dependency to the point that elderly

people are

> > reduced to such straits!
> >
> > Yours in liberty,
> > <<< starchild >>>
> >
> >
> >
> > > How many of these elders drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes?

How many

> > > of them buy lottery scratch tickets or go to feed the slot-

machines

> > in
> > > the casinos? Life is full of trade-offs. Each of these old

persons

> > > has decided to live in expensive San Franciscothan move toa

lower

> >
> > > cost of living area. I don't feel sorry for them at all.
> > >
> > > Another problem with continuing these programs is that it

gives

> > > current peoplea perverse incentive to NOT save for the

future.

> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Dear Derek;
> > >
> > > If you have an elderly person living on $800 a month and

half goes

> > > to rent and the other half goes to gas/electric and Medicare

and

> > > medicine not covered by Medicare and medicare premiums and

clothing

> > > and laundry and food and what the heck is going to be left

over to

> > > cut from a budget??? Are you talking literally penny

pinching?

> > >
> > > As far as expensive to live here to move from here to

another less

> > > expensive place is going to take how much money??? And what

kind of

> > > a first and last deposit and security payment? Secondly what

will

> > > the support services needed by an elder be like in

comparison??? Etc

> > > etc etc. Please cite examples of how this could be done by

an Elder

> > > living on $800 a month with no net dispoable left over???
> > >
> > > I asked for real world responses to a real world situation

not a

> > > response which seems to be a little bit to much in the

cavalier

> > > vein.
> > >
> > > Now try again and come up with a real world response on how

to

> > > replace food boxes cut from elders who could use the extra

can of

> > > tuna fish and stretch it for a week???
> > >
> > > Ron Getty
> > > SF Libertarian
> > >
> > > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com , "Derek Jensen"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I volunteer to give one hour of personal financial advice

to

> > > anyone that
> > > > this affects.I will show them other places in their budget

that

> > > they can
> > > > cut in order to continue eating healthy meals.
> > > >
> > > > Another option is for them to beg their adult children for

money.

> > > This is
> > > > far more honorable than taking stolen money from the

taxpayers.

> > > >
> > > > -Derek
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Every penny being paid to any government worker or any

worker

> > > at a
> > > > > company in a division funded by tax money making over

$100K

> > > should have
> > > > > their salary reduced and all funds collected should go

to this

> > > feeding
> > > > > program.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you say?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto: lpsf-
> > > discuss@yahoogroups.com ]
> > > > > *On Behalf Of *Ron Getty
> > > > > *Sent:* Saturday, March 25, 2006 1:00 PM
> > > > > *To:* Libertarian Yahoo Group
> > > > > *Subject:* [lpsf-discuss] 1,000 SF Elders Get Monthly

Food Boxes

> > > CUT!! NOW
> > > > > WHAT!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Everyone;
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This article in todays Examiner prompts me to ask SF
> > > Libertarians how to
> > > > > solve this problem - TODAY - RIGHT HERE - IMMEDIATELY

because it

> > > requires an
> > > > > immediate response.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Based on budget cuts 1,000 SF seniors who receive a

monthly food

> > > box will
> > > > > have to be cut from the food box program. These are

Elders

> > > living on - more
> > > > > likely existing on - social security at about $800 -

$1000 a

> > > month. Think
> > > > > rent food medical etc first and what if anything is left

over.

> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Question: What can we as tax-cut approving Libertarians

propose

> > > to do
> > > > > TODAY - RIGHT NOW - to get food boxes to those Elders

who will

> > > be cut from
> > > > > the program? Or better yet all the 500,000 Elders on the

program

> > > nationally
> > > > > so $128 million can be cut from the budget.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW I am not interested in hearing what these Elders

could have

> > > should
> > > > > have didn't of have done so they would be in those
> > > circumstances. It is a
> > > > > currently existing situation - discussing past events of

what

> > > should have
> > > > > been done will not be considered and is immaterial if

your are

> > > facing going
> > > > > hungry.....
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.examiner.com/US-
> > >

a58009~1_000_fewer_seniors_to_receive_food_boxes_due_to_federal_budge

> > > t_cuts.html
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ron Getty
> > > > >
> > > > > SF Libertarian
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > >

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Dear Derek;

Prepare it and communicate it to the following person and see what
they have to say about how it may help the Food Box Elders.

   San Francisco Food Bank mailing address and contact information:
      
          Paul Ash - Executive Director
          900 Pennsylvania Ave., San Francisco, CA 94107
          Telephone: (415) 282-1900 ext. 0

http://www.sffoodbank.org/

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

--- In lpsf-discuss@...m, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@...>
wrote:

Ron:

I'm going to prepare a 1 page summary of advice to "elders" who

may be

affected. It will be respectful but also very frank. You can

feel free to

distribute this to anyone who may be affected. If they feel my

advice has

value and wish to take the bull by the horns, I will sit with them

for lunch

(my treat) and help them sort through their budget. I mean it.

-Derek

>
> Dear Steve;
>
> Great!!! Now how do you get someone of limited income to

okalhoma city or

> even Fresno and come up with the first last and security

deposits?? Small

> but minor details???
>
> BTW having been through Fresno my memories of Fresno are it's

11:00 PM at

> night and it's 90 degrees out!!!!!!!!! If the Elders moved to

Fresno you'd

> bettah hope the rent included air-conditioning and enough income

to pay a

> super-charged electric bill. Whooo Hooo!
>
> If an Elder is on a small income and they are willing to go

through the

> embarassment of standing in line for food boxes I'm gonna guess

they are not

> rashly spending their money on wine women and song.
>
> Maybe those casino coach trips to Cache Creek but luxuries like

cigarettes

> at $5.00 a box??? Naaahhh!
>
> But we'll know bettah after Derek Jensen does his freeby

financial

> planning seminar with a carefully selected Food Box Elder and

reports the

> results back to us on his personal seminar.
>
> Right Derek???
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
>
> *Steve Dekorte <steve@...>* wrote:
>
>
> > Dear Stve DeKorte;
> >
> > These people are Elderly and based on California law they are

not

> > eligible for Food Stamps.
> >
> > The request was for ways in which to replace the tax payer

funded

> > food box program.
> >
> > What are your ways to do this???
>
> My point was that just because someone has a small income, it

doesn't

> mean they do not have wasteful spending habits which Derek might

help

> them identify.
>
> More importantly, I agree with the point Derek made about moving

to an

> area with a lower cost of living. For example, looking at

craigslist, I

> see average prices for rentals in Fresno are about half that in

San

> Francisco. And prices in Oklahoma City are about half that of

Fresno.

>
> If someone is spending half of their income on rent, it looks

like such

> a move might be a savings of 25%-37% of their income. Would that

be

> enough to make of for the loss of a food program?
>
> -- Steve
>
>
>
>
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Dear Derek;

I know of no such specific person as my whole "thang" was to find
out what Libertarian alternatives could be done to help the Food Box
Elders without using tax payer dollars.

As as far as the SF Food Bank is concerned each dollar received from
all sources gets increased to about $9.00. The budget for salaries
appears to be about $400,000 and spread across 50 full and part time
people means no one is living high on the hog. 70% of their funding
comes from private donations. The other 30% from a a variety of
state and fed and agricultural food programs.

Talking with Food Box Elders has nothing to do with the SF Food Bank
as they are a distribution center sending food out to 350 non-
profits for distribution to their neediest or some 53,000 people a
day.

By offering to talk to the Food Box Elders about how to budget and
being wise in their spending has nothing to do with the Food
distribution people.

It would seem you could make an offer to speak on budgeting in a
general get together if they have space there at the warehouse for
the Food Box Elders.

Why not try that???

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@...>
wrote:

Ron:

My advice may be too bitter of a pill for even the government

hack, I mean

"executive director" to swallow. People who have learned to

depend on

others for years and years do not take kindly to being told they

have to

tighten their belts, turn off their cable TV subscriptions, stop

taking the

bus to Cache Creek the day the "social security" check comes in,

stop

spending money on cigarettes and booze, etc. etc. (I recognize

that all of

these old people don't fit into every single one of these

categories). I

think my sending a letter such as I envision to this dude and

offering to

help is only going to antagonize them.

However, If you know of a specific person that would like some

financial

counseling in a respectful but frank way and enjoy a lunch at my

cost,

please let them know about my offer. I will even reimburse their

bus fare

to and from the financial district. If after meeting with me, I

can't prove

to them that it is within their budget to replace this

monthly "free" meal,

then I will give them money to buy a year's worth of these meals.

I would prefer to help combat veterans.

-Derek

>
> Dear Derek;
>
> Prepare it and communicate it to the following person and see

what

> they have to say about how it may help the Food Box Elders.
>
> San Francisco Food Bank mailing address and contact

information:

>
> Paul Ash - Executive Director
> 900 Pennsylvania Ave., San Francisco, CA 94107
> Telephone: (415) 282-1900 ext. 0
>
> http://www.sffoodbank.org/
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
> --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ron:
> >
> > I'm going to prepare a 1 page summary of advice to "elders" who
> may be
> > affected. It will be respectful but also very frank. You can
> feel free to
> > distribute this to anyone who may be affected. If they feel my
> advice has
> > value and wish to take the bull by the horns, I will sit with

them

> for lunch
> > (my treat) and help them sort through their budget. I mean it.
> >
> > -Derek
> >
> > >
> > > Dear Steve;
> > >
> > > Great!!! Now how do you get someone of limited income to
> okalhoma city or
> > > even Fresno and come up with the first last and security
> deposits?? Small
> > > but minor details???
> > >
> > > BTW having been through Fresno my memories of Fresno are it's
> 11:00 PM at
> > > night and it's 90 degrees out!!!!!!!!! If the Elders moved

to

> Fresno you'd
> > > bettah hope the rent included air-conditioning and enough

income

> to pay a
> > > super-charged electric bill. Whooo Hooo!
> > >
> > > If an Elder is on a small income and they are willing to go
> through the
> > > embarassment of standing in line for food boxes I'm gonna

guess

> they are not
> > > rashly spending their money on wine women and song.
> > >
> > > Maybe those casino coach trips to Cache Creek but luxuries

like

> cigarettes
> > > at $5.00 a box??? Naaahhh!
> > >
> > > But we'll know bettah after Derek Jensen does his freeby
> financial
> > > planning seminar with a carefully selected Food Box Elder and
> reports the
> > > results back to us on his personal seminar.
> > >
> > > Right Derek???
> > >
> > > Ron Getty
> > > SF Libertarian
> > >
> > >
> > > *Steve Dekorte <steve@>* wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Dear Stve DeKorte;
> > > >
> > > > These people are Elderly and based on California law they

are

> not
> > > > eligible for Food Stamps.
> > > >
> > > > The request was for ways in which to replace the tax payer
> funded
> > > > food box program.
> > > >
> > > > What are your ways to do this???
> > >
> > > My point was that just because someone has a small income, it
> doesn't
> > > mean they do not have wasteful spending habits which Derek

might

> help
> > > them identify.
> > >
> > > More importantly, I agree with the point Derek made about

moving

> to an
> > > area with a lower cost of living. For example, looking at
> craigslist, I
> > > see average prices for rentals in Fresno are about half that

in

> San
> > > Francisco. And prices in Oklahoma City are about half that of
> Fresno.
> > >
> > > If someone is spending half of their income on rent, it looks
> like such
> > > a move might be a savings of 25%-37% of their income. Would

that

> be
> > > enough to make of for the loss of a food program?
> > >
> > > -- Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > U s government grant<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>

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