Quote on failure of libertarianism to seek to build a mass movement

"The modern history of Libertarianism seems to be one of trying to adapt [to] the modern political system of parties and fundraising. It's all about money, which is why they have gone after the "privileged conformists"...This is a big reason they have failed to accomplish anything. They don't seem to realize you can accomplish more with a populist movement... organizing massive numbers of the disaffected poor and lower middle class against an authoritative and oppressive state."

-Roger Kulp on LeftLibertarian list, 8/3/06
(a few superfluous commas removed)

Dear Starchild;

In the statement you sent us by Roger Kulp he said: They don't seem to realize you can accomplish more with a
populist movement... organizing massive numbers of the disaffected poor and lower middle class against an authoritative and oppressive state."

Okay - so how can this be done? What message would you say to these people - tens of thousands of whom are unfortunately reliant on state or federal largesse (at the taxpayers expense I may add) in one way or another - which would attract their support and how would they be organized so they would realize by their actions - if successful - they would lose the largesse they receive in various welfare - housing - medical programs etc etc etc and realize by so doing it would be for their betterment?

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...>
wrote:

Dear Starchild and Ron,

I have suggested several times that the LPSF study its constituency
and potential constituency for just the reason exemplified in
Starchild's and Ron's e-mails. My guess would be that we have been
barking at a lot of wrong trees.

We might want to revisit "Constituency Based Marketing" (or
Constituency Based Outreach).

Marcy

Dear Starchild;

In the statement you sent us by Roger Kulp he said: They don't

seem to realize you can accomplish more with a

populist movement... organizing massive numbers of the disaffected

poor and lower middle class against an authoritative and oppressive
state."

Okay - so how can this be done? What message would you say to these

people - tens of thousands of whom are unfortunately reliant on state
or federal largesse (at the taxpayers expense I may add) in one way
or another - which would attract their support and how would they be
organized so they would realize by their actions - if successful -
they would lose the largesse they receive in various welfare -
housing - medical programs etc etc etc and realize by so doing it
would be for their betterment?

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

From: Starchild <sfdreamer@...>
To: grassrootslibertarians@yahoogroups.com; LPSF Discussion List

<lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Saturday, August 5, 2006 6:51:06 PM
Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism to seek

to build a mass movement

"The modern history of Libertarianism seems to be one of trying to
adapt [to] the modern political system of parties and fundraising.

It's

all about money, which is why they have gone after the "privileged
conformists" ...This is a big reason they have failed to accomplish
anything. They don't seem to realize you can accomplish more with a
populist movement... organizing massive numbers of the disaffected

poor

and lower middle class against an authoritative and oppressive

state."

If I may interject-

I know plenty of people dependant in one way or another on the state. None of them like the system, and most resent its control ovr and indifference to their lives. They support the system tepidly because they know of no other practical choice and know the Republicans whpo represent the ‘free market’ in their eyes would gladly leave them to die. Some of them take benefits from the system more or less for granted- true… mainly because they’ve given up hope as functioning as individuals, usually because various systems of oppression (statism included) have painted them into a spiritual and physial corner.

Tell them they can be free. Shut up about how Teh Welfare State steals from innocent middle class taxpayers, who the poor rightly see as winners in a rigged rage. Tell them instead how the welfare state enriches bureaucrats and steals the opportunities that would permit them a chance of independence. Describe to them how life would be if they could start their own businesses. Support plans for non-state community actions like the South Central farmers in Los Angeles. Stop acting like anyonw who cares deeply about social injustice is about to summon a socialist bogeyman and learn, dammit, to care yourself. Don’t sneer down your nose at the culture, experiences, or value of the poor. Listen to them, and assume they will be right about at least some things they know more about than you do. Don’t balme them for using a welfare system to stay alive.

Poor people deal with hateful, indifference, and manipulative bureaucrats every week. They don;t have to be told what the welfare state is life- but Republcans and Democrats alike tell them their choice is between the welfare state and being thrown to the wolves. Show them the market isn’t about wolves but instead the welfare statists are playing a terrible con game and keeping them in captivity. Show them what freedom feels like.

Protest first not wealth transfers but the controls the welfare state enforces on people. Libertarians should rise in anger when government largesse is used to control peoples lives or serf-farm them out to corporations as ‘workfare’. Don’t tell the poor that they are lazy if they don’t want to work in humiliating jobs at starvation wages- show how our crony capitalist system is at fault for offering them nothing but humiliation and starvation wages. Show how the spirit of liberty is the same spirit which could empower you against everyone who wants to run their lives- whether that be the state, corporate bosses, welfare bureaucrats, criminal gangs, or abusive parents and husbands.

Don’t act like the poor are your natural enemies and the rich are your natural friends. Don’t act like corporatism, rife with privilege and racism, in equivalent to your ideal. Don;t act like the middle class or ‘productive citizens’ are better than them, your first priority, or have their positions because f merit or special virtue in a state capitalist world where the real mechanism of a free market has marginal play. Talk to people. Invite them your meetings. Reach out and understand their concerns and show that libertarianism will help them, not how morality shows they should help you.

Trust people to want a life of their own. I am poor myself, in economic terms. I am a survivor of child abuse and because of that suffer from trauma that has ruined my health. I earn just enough money to live on and have on more than one occasion counted my cash on hand in the low double digits. But I don’t feel poor- because I live free from bosses, from parents- and from state tyranny. Admittedly the nature of my profession and my single existence makes my situation much easier. But I believe the fierce joy I feel every time I remember that I am FREE is something common to the human spirit.

Libertarianism was once a pro-labour, pro-working class philosophy. The orginal classical economists such as Smith and Ricardo turned their fire on mercantilism precisely with an eye to corporate statism institutional exploitation of the poor. The most radical libertarians- such as Benjamin Tucker who edited the orginal liberty, were anarchists who called themselves socialists- socialists because they stood against the exploitation of labour which they saw as made possible my the state. Libertarianism contains a strain of theorists, from Alfred J. Nock to Karl Hess to Roy Childs and Sam Konkin, who protested social injustice no less than state coercion. And the left itself has long had a libertarian wing- from anarchists such as Emma Goldman to countercultural writers such as Paul Goodman and Ellen Willis, which libertarians have not made dialogue with ignored.

Reach out. Act like you believe liberty will improve the life of the living person you are talking too. Act like they want to be free. If they believe a free market will not give them a better life, make sure that you really care about their lfe being better- if you catch yourself thinking their worse life is a price you are willing to pay for the free market then the problem is yours, not theirs. Make sure YOU don’t really believe your philosophy will benefit you and not them. If you think that virtue requires their sacrifices, do not be surprised if they reject your virtue.

Extend your conception of liberty to something more than formal noncoercion. When someeone spelas of the tyranny of their boss, don;t tell them the relationship is ‘voluntary’ and thus the tyranny isn’t real- tell them instead how statism makes possible social and economic relations that always feel like heirarchy and tyranny. If you don’t feel this, maybe you need to learn to rebel against the boss yourslef… and it just might be the reason you don;t feel this, and they do… is because you are bribed well for your corporate serfdom, and they are bribed poorly. In which case it is your love of freedom for its own sake that has been dampened, and theirs which still flares. In a certain sense a poor person who reaches for the state to fight corporate tyranny they deeply resent is more libertarian than the libertarian with perfect theory who meekly submits to the ‘just’ control of bosses micromanaging their lives.

Above all- understand, identify, care. Yes, keep your linear theories of libertarian justice. You are, I suspect, right about them. But your correct theories do not reach the underprivileged. It is time you stop blaming the underprvilieged for this and asked yourself ‘why?’

love and strife,

Lady Aster

{)(*)(}

*Freude, sch�ner G�tterfunken*
*Tochter aus Elysium,*
*Wir betreten feuertrunken,*
*Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!*
*Deine Zauber binden wieder*
*Was die Mode streng geteilt.*
*Alle Menschen werden Br�der*
*Wo dein sanfter Fl�gel weilt.*

email ms_shiris@…

Dear Marcy;

Arf Arf Arf and Woof Woof Woof. With that aside what trees have we been wrongly barking at and what trees should we be barking at? Obviously a major topic for discussion at the next LPSF meeting and should be on the agenda?

ie: what message to whom and why them and how would they be expected to receive the message and convert over to what and when? Good old sales marketing and advertising.

A very special note on this topic. The best minds in business have always stated the following or something really close to this which applies to our LPSF efforts:

Find a viable market first then develop a product or service to sell to that market.

Find a niche market learn everything you can about it and develop a service or marketing materials specifically for that market.

So if as hypothesized we go to the poor and lower middle class is this our niche market???

If it is not our niche market who is our niche market and what do we do to go to that niche market with what kinds of materials or messages to win converts???

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

Dear Lady Aster;

Very well said from your heart and at the heart of the matter.

There is an e-mail in response I sent earlier about how or what we should be doing which you may receive eventually based on yahoo group mail forwarding where I addressed the issue from a sales marketing advertising viewpoint of just whom is our niche market - specifically in good old SF - and once we have definitively identified this niche market how do we approach this niche market and with what message done by whom and under what circumstances and so forth.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

Ron,

  I do appreciate your interest in this approach, but I strongly believe we should avoid taking a sales/marketing/advertising viewpoint. That's the language of the corporate business world, not the language of a mass movement of the people, which is what we are (or should be) aiming to create. There are other terms and phrases we can use which have roughly similar meanings without the negative connotations, such as "outreach," "persuade," "teach," "get the word out," etc.

Love & liberty,
        <<< starchild >>>

Dear Lady Aster;

Very well said from your heart and at the heart of the matter.

There is an e-mail in response I sent earlier about how or what we should be doing which you may receive eventually based on yahoo group mail forwarding where I addressed the issue from a sales marketing advertising viewpoint of just whom is our niche market - specifically in good old SF - and once we have definitively identified this niche market how do we approach this niche market and with what message done by whom and under what circumstances and so forth.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

From: Lady Aster <ms_shiris@hotmail.com>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2006 12:13:12 PM
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism to seek to build a mass movement

If I may interject-

I know plenty of people dependant in one way or another on the state. None of them like the system, and most resent its control ovr and indifference to their lives. They support the system tepidly because they know of no other practical choice and know the Republicans whpo represent the 'free market' in their eyes would gladly leave them to die. Some of them take benefits from the system more or less for granted- true... mainly because they've given up hope as functioning as individuals, usually because various systems of oppression (statism included) have painted them into a spiritual and physial corner.

Tell them they can be free. Shut up about how Teh Welfare State steals from innocent middle class taxpayers, who the poor rightly see as winners in a rigged rage. Tell them instead how the welfare state enriches bureaucrats and steals the opportunities that would permit them a chance of independence. Describe to them how life would be if they could start their own businesses. Support plans for non-state community actions like the South Central farmers in Los Angeles. Stop acting like anyonw who cares deeply about social injustice is about to summon a socialist bogeyman and learn, dammit, to care yourself. Don't sneer down your nose at the culture, experiences, or value of the poor. Listen to them, and assume they will be right about at least some things they know more about than you do. Don't balme them for using a welfare system to stay alive.

Poor people deal with hateful, indifference, and manipulative bureaucrats every week. They don;t have to be told what the welfare state is life- but Republcans and Democrats alike tell them their choice is between the welfare state and being thrown to the wolves. Show them the market isn't about wolves but instead the welfare statists are playing a terrible con game and keeping them in captivity. Show them what freedom feels like.

Protest first not wealth transfers but the controls the welfare state enforces on people. Libertarians should rise in anger when government largesse is used to control peoples lives or serf-farm them out to corporations as 'workfare'. Don't tell the poor that they are lazy if they don't want to work in humiliating jobs at starvation wages- show how our crony capitalist system is at fault for offering them nothing but humiliation and starvation wages. Show how the spirit of liberty is the same spirit which could empower you against everyone who wants to run their lives- whether that be the state, corporate bosses, welfare bureaucrats, criminal gangs, or abusive parents and husbands.

Don't act like the poor are your natural enemies and the rich are your natural friends. Don't act like corporatism, rife with privilege and racism, in equivalent to your ideal. Don;t act like the middle class or 'productive citizens' are better than them, your first priority, or have their positions because f merit or special virtue in a state capitalist world where the real mechanism of a free market has marginal play. Talk to people. Invite them your meetings. Reach out and understand their concerns and show that libertarianism will help them, not how morality shows they should help you.

Trust people to want a life of their own. I am poor myself, in economic terms. I am a survivor of child abuse and because of that suffer from trauma that has ruined my health. I earn just enough money to live on and have on more than one occasion counted my cash on hand in the low double digits. But I don't feel poor- because I live free from bosses, from parents- and from state tyranny. Admittedly the nature of my profession and my single existence makes my situation much easier. But I believe the fierce joy I feel every time I remember that I am FREE is something common to the human spirit.

Libertarianism was once a pro-labour, pro-working class philosophy. The orginal classical economists such as Smith and Ricardo turned their fire on mercantilism precisely with an eye to corporate statism institutional exploitation of the poor. The most radical libertarians- such as Benjamin Tucker who edited the orginal liberty, were anarchists who called themselves socialists- socialists because they stood against the exploitation of labour which they saw as made possible my the state. Libertarianism contains a strain of theorists, from Alfred J. Nock to Karl Hess to Roy Childs and Sam Konkin, who protested social injustice no less than state coercion. And the left itself has long had a libertarian wing- from anarchists such as Emma Goldman to countercultural writers such as Paul Goodman and Ellen Willis, which libertarians have not made dialogue with ignored.

Reach out. Act like you believe liberty will improve the life of the living person you are talking too. Act like they want to be free. If they believe a free market will not give them a better life, make sure that you really care about their lfe being better- if you catch yourself thinking their worse life is a price you are willing to pay for the free market then the problem is yours, not theirs. Make sure YOU don't really believe your philosophy will benefit you and not them. If you think that virtue requires their sacrifices, do not be surprised if they reject your virtue.

Extend your conception of liberty to something more than formal noncoercion. When someeone spelas of the tyranny of their boss, don;t tell them the relationship is 'voluntary' and thus the tyranny isn't real- tell them instead how statism makes possible social and economic relations that always feel like heirarchy and tyranny. If you don't feel this, maybe you need to learn to rebel against the boss yourslef... and it just might be the reason you don;t feel this, and they do... is because you are bribed well for your corporate serfdom, and they are bribed poorly. In which case it is your love of freedom for its own sake that has been dampened, and theirs which still flares. In a certain sense a poor person who reaches for the state to fight corporate tyranny they deeply resent is more libertarian than the libertarian with perfect theory who meekly submits to the 'just' control of bosses micromanaging their lives.

Above all- understand, identify, *care*. Yes, keep your linear theories of libertarian justice. You are, I suspect, right about them. But your correct theories do not reach the underprivileged. It is time you stop blaming the underprvilieged for this and asked yourself 'why?'

love and strife,

Lady Aster <image.tiff>

{)(*)(}

Freude, schöner Götterfunken
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!
Deine Zauber binden wieder
Was die Mode streng geteilt.
Alle Menschen werden Brüder
Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

<image.tiff> email ms_shiris@hotmail. com <image.tiff>

<image.tiff>

Dear Starchild;

Okay - you said in part: There are other terms and phrases we can use which have roughly similar meanings without the negative connotations, such as "outreach," "persuade," "teach," "get the word out," etc.

So in using those words who are our outreach mass movement people in SF? How would you identify the people to whom our Message would provide enlightenment on their exploitation by the government as socialized experiments bought for with tax money? What words we would use to teach and persuade them about the Libertarian message? What means would be used to get the word out? Who or whom would be the Messangers and what Message would they use or adapt when Messaging to the particualr mass movement peoples? Large group - small groups - church groups - social groups - school groups - etc etc etc

We can discuss this at next Saturdays LPSF meeting as new business( ooooops can't use the word business it's too corporate) lets's try the words have a group think touchie feelie - instead of business - talk about the mass movement outreach program.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

Talking about this at our next meeting probably isn't completely pointless, but I think it's much less than 50% of the solution. We just need to get out there and do more stuff. For example, going to the City Hall hearing on the cannabis dispensary legislation on Tuesday. And getting signatures to get the prostitution de-prioritization and anti-redevelopment measures on the ballot. It would be nice to get a group together to do petitioning in parts of the city that don't see that much political activism, like the Bayview, Ingleside, Chinatown, outer Richmond/Sunset, etc.

  I'd also like to propose that the LPSF buy some drums (ATTN: JUSTIN - AGENDA ITEM) for use at rallies and booths and events such as the fundraiser on the 19th. It doesn't take musical talent to bang on a pair of drums and make noise -- anyone can do it. But it does make noise, and gets people to notice whatever else you're doing. A banner outside the venue of the Josh Wolf fundraiser, and someone sitting out there beating a big pair of drums, would draw attention to what's going on inside.

Love & liberty,
        <<< starchild >>>

Dear Starchild;

Getting out there and doing stuff is also much less than 50% of the solution.

Doing stuff to do stuff is meaningless unless it has an overall achievable objective attained by stages.

As an example, from the time Rosa Parks said I am not going to go to the back of the bus no more and the Civil - Voting - Immigration Rights bills signed by Johnson was a time frame of 10 years!!!

An awful lot of little baby steps had to take place in the meantime all of which aimed for the final objective. As Dr. Martin Luther King Jr said I have a Dream and what was the objective of his Dream - To Be Free At Last!!!!!!

What is the objective for Libertarians and the Libertarian message in SF which would be fostered by getting to speak or having a major presence at the cannabis dispensary meeting at City Hall?

What would the objective be in gathering petiton signatures for the anti - Bay View Redevelopment petition which at this time would require enough qualifying signatures to force a special election for the Bay View Project? And most importantly are the legally mandated timelines being met for this to happen?

What would the objective be in gathering signatures for a prostitution de-criminalization initiative when July 10 was the drop dead date for submitting enough qualified signatures for the Nov. 7 ballot and Friday August 11 is the drop dead date for the supervisors to place a supervisors intiative on the Nov. ballot. Are the supporters looking towards next years elections?

What are the objectives for doing these things which would benefit the long term goals of Libertarians in SF and what are those long term goals?

Unless the LP of SF has a set of achievable determined goals which we all can agree on so that anytime we do stuff it draws us that much closer to those goals doing stuff to do stuff is doing stuff for no discernible reason.

We must have reasons for why we would ask the people of LPSF to come on down and Bang On Drums so they would come on down and Bang On Drums because they see a reason why.

In other words we would like you to Bang on Drums because...............

If you don't got no because - then you don't got no because people will involve themselves with for any reason on earth. Get a because!

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

Dear Ron,

I have no problem revisiting marketing/outreach at the next meeting
as you suggest if there is interest. However, I feel that our focus
right now should be on the Police Petition, if we are serious on
getting this effort off the ground. I realize that knowing our
potential constituency *might* help in our Petition efforts, but not
to the extent that would, in my own opinion, make it wise to re-
introduce the topic, which in the past has proven rather challenging.
I stand guilty of mentioning the marketing/outreach subject; I should
not have done so.

Marcy

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...>
wrote:

Dear Starchild;

Okay - you said in part: There are other terms and phrases we can

use which have roughly similar meanings without the negative
connotations, such as "outreach," "persuade," "teach," "get the word
out," etc.

So in using those words who are our outreach mass movement people

in SF? How would you identify the people to whom our Message would
provide enlightenment on their exploitation by the government as
socialized experiments bought for with tax money? What words we would
use to teach and persuade them about the Libertarian message? What
means would be used to get the word out? Who or whom would be the
Messangers and what Message would they use or adapt when Messaging to
the particualr mass movement peoples? Large group - small groups -
church groups - social groups - school groups - etc etc etc

We can discuss this at next Saturdays LPSF meeting as new business(

ooooops can't use the word business it's too corporate) lets's try
the words have a group think touchie feelie - instead of business -
talk about the mass movement outreach program.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

From: Starchild <sfdreamer@...>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2006 2:24:30 PM
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism to

seek to build a mass movement

Ron,

    I do appreciate your interest in this approach, but I strongly

believe

we should avoid taking a sales/marketing/advertising viewpoint.

That's

the language of the corporate business world, not the language of a
mass movement of the people, which is what we are (or should be)

aiming

to create. There are other terms and phrases we can use which have
roughly similar meanings without the negative connotations, such as
"outreach," "persuade," "teach," "get the word out," etc.

Love & liberty,
                <<< starchild >>>

> Dear Lady Aster;
>
> Very well said from your heart and at the heart of the matter.
>
> There is an e-mail in response I sent earlier about how or what

we

> should be doing which you may receive eventually based on yahoo

group

> mail forwarding where I addressed the issue from a sales

marketing

> advertising viewpoint of just whom is our niche market -

specifically

> in good old SF - and once we have definitively identified this

niche

> market how do we approach this niche market and with what message

done

> by whom and under what circumstances and so forth.
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
> From: Lady Aster <ms_shiris@...>
> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2006 12:13:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism to

seek

> to build a mass movement
>
> If I may interject-
>
> I know plenty of people dependant in one way or another on the

state.

> None of them like the system, and most resent its control ovr and
> indifference to their lives. They support the system tepidly

because

> they know of no other practical choice and know the Republicans

whpo

> represent the 'free market' in their eyes would gladly leave them

to

> die. Some of them take benefits from the system more or less for
> granted- true... mainly because they've given up hope as

functioning

> as individuals, usually because various systems of oppression

(statism

> included) have painted them into a spiritual and physial corner.
>
> Tell them they can be free. Shut up about how Teh Welfare State
> steals from innocent middle class taxpayers, who the poor rightly

see

> as winners in a rigged rage. Tell them instead how the welfare

state

> enriches bureaucrats and steals the opportunities that would

permit

> them a chance of independence. Describe to them how life would

be if

> they could start their own businesses. Support plans for non-

state

> community actions like the South Central farmers in Los Angeles.

Stop

> acting like anyonw who cares deeply about social injustice is

about to

> summon a socialist bogeyman and learn, dammit, to care yourself.
> Don't sneer down your nose at the culture, experiences, or value

of

> the poor. Listen to them, and assume they will be right about at
> least some things they know more about than you do. Don't balme

them

> for using a welfare system to stay alive.
>
> Poor people deal with hateful, indifference, and manipulative
> bureaucrats every week. They don;t have to be told what the

welfare

> state is life- but Republcans and Democrats alike tell them their
> choice is between the welfare state and being thrown to the

wolves.

> Show them the market isn't about wolves but instead the welfare
> statists are playing a terrible con game and keeping them in
> captivity. Show them what freedom feels like.
>
> Protest first not wealth transfers but the controls the welfare

state

> enforces on people. Libertarians should rise in anger when

government

> largesse is used to control peoples lives or serf-farm them out

to

> corporations as 'workfare'. Don't tell the poor that they are

lazy if

> they don't want to work in humiliating jobs at starvation wages-

show

> how our crony capitalist system is at fault for offering them

nothing

> but humiliation and starvation wages. Show how the spirit of

liberty

> is the same spirit which could empower you against everyone who

wants

> to run their lives- whether that be the state, corporate bosses,
> welfare bureaucrats, criminal gangs, or abusive parents and

husbands.

>
> Don't act like the poor are your natural enemies and the rich are

your

> natural friends. Don't act like corporatism, rife with privilege

and

> racism, in equivalent to your ideal. Don;t act like the middle

class

> or 'productive citizens' are better than them, your first

priority, or

> have their positions because f merit or special virtue in a state
> capitalist world where the real mechanism of a free market has
> marginal play. Talk to people. Invite them your meetings.

Reach out

> and understand their concerns and show that libertarianism will

help

> them, not how morality shows they should help you.
>
> Trust people to want a life of their own. I am poor myself, in
> economic terms. I am a survivor of child abuse and because of

that

> suffer from trauma that has ruined my health. I earn just enough
> money to live on and have on more than one occasion counted my

cash on

> hand in the low double digits. But I don't feel poor- because I

live

> free from bosses, from parents- and from state tyranny.

Admittedly

> the nature of my profession and my single existence makes my

situation

> much easier. But I believe the fierce joy I feel every time I
> remember that I am FREE is something common to the human spirit.
>
> Libertarianism was once a pro-labour, pro-working class

philosophy.

> The orginal classical economists such as Smith and Ricardo turned
> their fire on mercantilism precisely with an eye to corporate

statism

> institutional exploitation of the poor. The most radical
> libertarians- such as Benjamin Tucker who edited the orginal

liberty,

> were anarchists who called themselves socialists- socialists

because

> they stood against the exploitation of labour which they saw as

made

> possible my the state. Libertarianism contains a strain of

theorists,

> from Alfred J. Nock to Karl Hess to Roy Childs and Sam Konkin,

who

> protested social injustice no less than state coercion. And the

left

> itself has long had a libertarian wing- from anarchists such as

Emma

> Goldman to countercultural writers such as Paul Goodman and Ellen
> Willis, which libertarians have not made dialogue with ignored.
>
> Reach out. Act like you believe liberty will improve the life of

the

> living person you are talking too. Act like they want to be

free. If

> they believe a free market will not give them a better life, make

sure

> that you really care about their lfe being better- if you catch
> yourself thinking their worse life is a price you are willing to

pay

> for the free market then the problem is yours, not theirs. Make

sure

> YOU don't really believe your philosophy will benefit you and not
> them. If you think that virtue requires their sacrifices, do not

be

> surprised if they reject your virtue.
>
> Extend your conception of liberty to something more than formal
> noncoercion. When someeone spelas of the tyranny of their boss,

don;t

> tell them the relationship is 'voluntary' and thus the tyranny

isn't

> real- tell them instead how statism makes possible social and

economic

> relations that always feel like heirarchy and tyranny. If you

don't

> feel this, maybe you need to learn to rebel against the boss
> yourslef... and it just might be the reason you don;t feel this,

and

> they do... is because you are bribed well for your corporate

serfdom,

> and they are bribed poorly. In which case it is your love of

freedom

> for its own sake that has been dampened, and theirs which still
> flares. In a certain sense a poor person who reaches for the

state to

> fight corporate tyranny they deeply resent is more libertarian

than

> the libertarian with perfect theory who meekly submits to

the 'just'

> control of bosses micromanaging their lives.
>
> Above all- understand, identify, *care*. Yes, keep your linear
> theories of libertarian justice. You are, I suspect, right about
> them. But your correct theories do not reach the

underprivileged. It

> is time you stop blaming the underprvilieged for this and asked
> yourself 'why?'
>
> love and strife,
>
> Lady Aster <image.tiff>
>
> {)(*)(}
>
> Freude, schöner Götterfunken
> Tochter aus Elysium,
> Wir betreten feuertrunken,
> Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!
> Deine Zauber binden wieder
> Was die Mode streng geteilt.
> Alle Menschen werden Brüder
> Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.
<image.tiff> email ms_shiris@hotmail. com <image.tiff>
>
<image.tiff>
>
> From: Ron Getty <tradergroupe@ yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism to

seek

> to build a mass movement
> Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 10:19:46 -0700 (PDT)
>
> Dear Starchild;
>
> In the statement you sent us by Roger Kulp he said: They don't

seem

> to realize you can accomplish more with a
> populist movement... organizing massive numbers of the

disaffected

> poor and lower middle class against an authoritative and

oppressive

> state."
>
> Okay - so how can this be done? What message would you say to

these

> people - tens of thousands of whom are unfortunately reliant on

state

> or federal largesse (at the taxpayers expense I may add) in one

way or

> another - which would attract their support and how would they be
> organized so they would realize by their actions - if successful -

> they would lose the largesse they receive in various welfare -

housing

> - medical programs etc etc etc and realize by so doing it would

be for

> their betterment?
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
> From: Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink .net>
> To: grassrootslibertari ans@yahoogroups. com; LPSF Discussion

List

> <lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 5, 2006 6:51:06 PM
> Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism to

seek to

> build a mass movement
>
> "The modern history of Libertarianism seems to be one of trying to
> adapt [to] the modern political system of parties and

fundraising. It's

> all about money, which is why they have gone after the "privileged
> conformists" ...This is a big reason they have failed to

accomplish

> anything. They don't seem to realize you can accomplish more with

a

> populist movement... organizing massive numbers of the

disaffected poor

> and lower middle class against an authoritative and oppressive

state."

>
> -Roger Kulp on LeftLibertarian list, 8/3/06
> (a few superfluous commas removed)
>
>
>
>
>

>
> Check out the future of MSN Spaces! Share with friends and

explore

> new ones.
>
>
>
Ron,

    I do appreciate your interest in this approach, but I strongly
believe we should avoid taking a sales/marketing/advertising
viewpoint. That's the language of the corporate business world, not
the language of a mass movement of the people, which is what we are
(or should be) aiming to create. There are other terms and phrases

we

can use which have roughly similar meanings without the negative
connotations, such as "outreach," "persuade," "teach," "get the word
out," etc.

Love & liberty,

                <<<<<< starchild >>>

<excerpt>Dear Lady Aster;

Very well said from your heart and at the heart of the matter.

There is an e-mail in response I sent earlier about how or what we
should be doing which you may receive eventually based on yahoo

group

mail forwarding where I addressed the issue from a sales marketing
advertising viewpoint of just whom is our niche market -

specifically

in good old SF - and once we have definitively identified this niche
market how do we approach this niche market and with what message

done

by whom and under what circumstances and so forth.

Ron Getty

SF Libertarian

From: Lady Aster <<ms_shiris@...>

To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2006 12:13:12 PM

Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism to

seek

to build a mass movement

If I may interject-

I know plenty of people dependant in one way or another on the

state.

None of them like the system, and most resent its control ovr and
indifference to their lives. They support the system tepidly

because

they know of no other practical choice and know the Republicans whpo
represent the 'free market' in their eyes would gladly leave them to
die. Some of them take benefits from the system more or less for
granted- true... mainly because they've given up hope as functioning
as individuals, usually because various systems of oppression

(statism

included) have painted them into a spiritual and physial corner.

Tell them they can be free. Shut up about how Teh Welfare State
steals from innocent middle class taxpayers, who the poor rightly

see

as winners in a rigged rage. Tell them instead how the welfare

state

enriches bureaucrats and steals the opportunities that would permit
them a chance of independence. Describe to them how life would be

if

they could start their own businesses. Support plans for non-state
community actions like the South Central farmers in Los Angeles.

Stop

acting like anyonw who cares deeply about social injustice is about

to

summon a socialist bogeyman and learn, dammit, to care yourself.
Don't sneer down your nose at the culture, experiences, or value of
the poor. Listen to them, and assume they will be right about at
least some things they know more about than you do. Don't balme

them

for using a welfare system to stay alive.

Poor people deal with hateful, indifference, and manipulative
bureaucrats every week. They don;t have to be told what the welfare
state is life- but Republcans and Democrats alike tell them their
choice is between the welfare state and being thrown to the wolves.
Show them the market isn't about wolves but instead the welfare
statists are playing a terrible con game and keeping them in
captivity. Show them what freedom feels like.

Protest first not wealth transfers but the controls the welfare

state

enforces on people. Libertarians should rise in anger when

government

largesse is used to control peoples lives or serf-farm them out to
corporations as 'workfare'. Don't tell the poor that they are lazy

if

they don't want to work in humiliating jobs at starvation wages-

show

how our crony capitalist system is at fault for offering them

nothing

but humiliation and starvation wages. Show how the spirit of

liberty

is the same spirit which could empower you against everyone who

wants

to run their lives- whether that be the state, corporate bosses,
welfare bureaucrats, criminal gangs, or abusive parents and

husbands.

Don't act like the poor are your natural enemies and the rich are

your

natural friends. Don't act like corporatism, rife with privilege

and

racism, in equivalent to your ideal. Don;t act like the middle

class

or 'productive citizens' are better than them, your first priority,

or

have their positions because f merit or special virtue in a state
capitalist world where the real mechanism of a free market has
marginal play. Talk to people. Invite them your meetings. Reach

out

and understand their concerns and show that libertarianism will help
them, not how morality shows they should help you.

Trust people to want a life of their own. I am poor myself, in
economic terms. I am a survivor of child abuse and because of that
suffer from trauma that has ruined my health. I earn just enough
money to live on and have on more than one occasion counted my cash

on

hand in the low double digits. But I don't feel poor- because I

live

free from bosses, from parents- and from state tyranny. Admittedly
the nature of my profession and my single existence makes my

situation

much easier. But I believe the fierce joy I feel every time I
remember that I am FREE is something common to the human spirit.

Libertarianism was once a pro-labour, pro-working class philosophy.
The orginal classical economists such as Smith and Ricardo turned
their fire on mercantilism precisely with an eye to corporate

statism

institutional exploitation of the poor. The most radical
libertarians- such as Benjamin Tucker who edited the orginal

liberty,

were anarchists who called themselves socialists- socialists because
they stood against the exploitation of labour which they saw as made
possible my the state. Libertarianism contains a strain of

theorists,

from Alfred J. Nock to Karl Hess to Roy Childs and Sam Konkin, who
protested social injustice no less than state coercion. And the

left

itself has long had a libertarian wing- from anarchists such as Emma
Goldman to countercultural writers such as Paul Goodman and Ellen
Willis, which libertarians have not made dialogue with ignored.

Reach out. Act like you believe liberty will improve the life of

the

living person you are talking too. Act like they want to be free.

If

they believe a free market will not give them a better life, make

sure

that you really care about their lfe being better- if you catch
yourself thinking their worse life is a price you are willing to pay
for the free market then the problem is yours, not theirs. Make

sure

YOU don't really believe your philosophy will benefit you and not
them. If you think that virtue requires their sacrifices, do not be
surprised if they reject your virtue.

Extend your conception of liberty to something more than formal
noncoercion. When someeone spelas of the tyranny of their boss,

don;t

tell them the relationship is 'voluntary' and thus the tyranny isn't
real- tell them instead how statism makes possible social and

economic

relations that always feel like heirarchy and tyranny. If you don't
feel this, maybe you need to learn to rebel against the boss
yourslef... and it just might be the reason you don;t feel this, and
they do... is because you are bribed well for your corporate

serfdom,

and they are bribed poorly. In which case it is your love of

freedom

for its own sake that has been dampened, and theirs which still
flares. In a certain sense a poor person who reaches for the state

to

fight corporate tyranny they deeply resent is more libertarian than
the libertarian with perfect theory who meekly submits to the 'just'
control of bosses micromanaging their lives.

Above all- understand, identify, *care*. Yes, keep your linear
theories of libertarian justice. You are, I suspect, right about
them. But your correct theories do not reach the underprivileged.

It

is time you stop blaming the underprvilieged for this and asked
yourself 'why?'

love and strife,

<italic><smaller>L</smaller>ady

<smaller>A</smaller>ster</italic><fontfamily><param>Times</param><smal

<<image.tiff></smaller></fontfamily>

{<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial

Black</param><color><param>FFFF,0000,0000</param>)
(<underline>*</underline>)(</color></fontfamily></bold>}

<italic><color><param>FFFF,0000,9999</param>Freude, schöner
Götterfunken</color></italic>

<italic><color><param>FFFF,0000,9999</param>Tochter aus

Elysium,</color></italic>

<italic><color><param>FFFF,0000,9999</param>Wir betreten

feuertrunken,</color></italic>

<italic><color><param>FFFF,0000,9999</param>Himmlische, dein

Heiligtum!</color></italic>

<italic><color><param>FFFF,0000,9999</param>Deine Zauber binden

wieder</color></italic>

<italic><color><param>FFFF,0000,9999</param>Was die Mode streng
geteilt.</color></italic>

<italic><color><param>FFFF,0000,9999</param>Alle Menschen werden

Brüder</color></italic>

<italic><color><param>FFFF,0000,9999</param>Wo dein sanfter Flügel
weilt.</color></italic>

</excerpt><<image.tiff> email
<underline><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>ms_shiris@hotmail.
com</color></underline> <<image.tiff>

<excerpt>

</excerpt><<image.tiff>

<excerpt>

From: <italic>Ron Getty <<tradergroupe@ yahoo.com>

</italic>Reply-To: <italic>lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com

</italic>To: <italic>lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com

</italic>Subject: <italic>Re: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of
libertarianism to seek to build a mass movement

</italic>Date: <italic>Sun, 6 Aug 2006 10:19:46 -0700 (PDT)

</italic>Dear Starchild;

In the statement you sent us by Roger Kulp he said: They don't seem
to realize you can accomplish more with a

populist movement... organizing massive numbers of the disaffected
poor and lower middle class against an authoritative and oppressive
state."

Okay - so how can this be done? What message would you say to these
people - tens of thousands of whom are unfortunately reliant on

state

or federal largesse (at the taxpayers expense I may add) in one way

or

another - which would attract their support and how would they be
organized so they would realize by their actions - if successful -
they would lose the largesse they receive in various welfare -

housing

- medical programs etc etc etc and realize by so doing it would be

for

their betterment?

Ron Getty

SF Libertarian

From: Starchild <<sfdreamer@earthlink .net>

To: grassrootslibertari ans@yahoogroups. com; LPSF Discussion List
<<lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com>

Sent: Saturday, August 5, 2006 6:51:06 PM

Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism to seek

to

build a mass movement

"The modern history of Libertarianism seems to be one of trying to

adapt [to] the modern political system of parties and fundraising.

It's

all about money, which is why they have gone after the "privileged

conformists" ...This is a big reason they have failed to accomplish

anything. They don't seem to realize you can accomplish more with a

populist movement... organizing massive numbers of the disaffected

poor

and lower middle class against an authoritative and oppressive

state."

-Roger Kulp on LeftLibertarian list, 8/3/06

(a few superfluous commas removed)

</excerpt>

<excerpt>

<underline><color><param>1999,1999,FFFF</param>Check out the future
of MSN Spaces! Share with friends and explore new

ones.</color></underline>

Dear Marcy;

No Problemo Senora. But sometimes it is wise to bring topics to be discussed which should be of interest to many of us as can be noticed from the e-mails about grass roots and other types of grass as well just as long as we don't start grasping at straws.

So as the saying goes I will bang the drum quietly as of course each person marches to the beat of a different drummer as they bark up the wrong tree searching for converts while bonging through the night |;-]

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

Shame on you, meus amicus. Puns are bad form.

Or would that be the pot calling the kettle green?

love and strife,

Lady Aster

{)(*)(}

*Freude, sch�ner G�tterfunken*
*Tochter aus Elysium,*
*Wir betreten feuertrunken,*
*Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!*
*Deine Zauber binden wieder*
*Was die Mode streng geteilt.*
*Alle Menschen werden Br�der*
*Wo dein sanfter Fl�gel weilt.*

email ms_shiris@…

Dear Ron,

I agree that it is good to bring to the table topics "that are of
interest to many of us." However, formulating a realistic,
professional marketing plan ain't one of them with our group, in my
opinion. That is why, for now, I would rather follow Starchild's
approach of working on events as they present themselves.

Marcy

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...>
wrote:

Dear Marcy;

No Problemo Senora. But sometimes it is wise to bring topics to be

discussed which should be of interest to many of us as can be noticed
from the e-mails about grass roots and other types of grass as well
just as long as we don't start grasping at straws.

So as the saying goes I will bang the drum quietly as of course

each person marches to the beat of a different drummer as they bark
up the wrong tree searching for converts while bonging through the
night |;-]

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

From: Amarcy D. Berry <amarcyb@...>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2006 9:46:47 PM
Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Quote on failure of libertarianism to

seek to build a mass movement

Dear Ron,

I have no problem revisiting marketing/outreach at the next meeting
as you suggest if there is interest. However, I feel that our focus
right now should be on the Police Petition, if we are serious on
getting this effort off the ground. I realize that knowing our
potential constituency *might* help in our Petition efforts, but

not

to the extent that would, in my own opinion, make it wise to re-
introduce the topic, which in the past has proven rather

challenging.

I stand guilty of mentioning the marketing/outreach subject; I

should

not have done so.

Marcy

--- In lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com, Ron Getty

<tradergroupe@ ...>

wrote:
>
> Dear Starchild;
>
> Okay - you said in part: There are other terms and phrases we can
use which have roughly similar meanings without the negative
connotations, such as "outreach," "persuade," "teach," "get the

word

out," etc.
>
> So in using those words who are our outreach mass movement people
in SF? How would you identify the people to whom our Message would
provide enlightenment on their exploitation by the government as
socialized experiments bought for with tax money? What words we

would

use to teach and persuade them about the Libertarian message? What
means would be used to get the word out? Who or whom would be the
Messangers and what Message would they use or adapt when Messaging

to

the particualr mass movement peoples? Large group - small groups -
church groups - social groups - school groups - etc etc etc
>
> We can discuss this at next Saturdays LPSF meeting as new business

(

ooooops can't use the word business it's too corporate) lets's try
the words have a group think touchie feelie - instead of business -
talk about the mass movement outreach program.
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
> From: Starchild <sfdreamer@ ..>
> To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2006 2:24:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism to
seek to build a mass movement
>
>
> Ron,
>
> I do appreciate your interest in this approach, but I strongly
believe
> we should avoid taking a sales/marketing/ advertising viewpoint.
That's
> the language of the corporate business world, not the language of

a

> mass movement of the people, which is what we are (or should be)
aiming
> to create. There are other terms and phrases we can use which

have

> roughly similar meanings without the negative connotations, such

as

> "outreach," "persuade," "teach," "get the word out," etc.
>
> Love & liberty,
> <<< starchild >>>
>
>
>
> > Dear Lady Aster;
> >
> > Very well said from your heart and at the heart of the matter.
> >
> > There is an e-mail in response I sent earlier about how or what
we
> > should be doing which you may receive eventually based on yahoo
group
> > mail forwarding where I addressed the issue from a sales
marketing
> > advertising viewpoint of just whom is our niche market -
specifically
> > in good old SF - and once we have definitively identified this
niche
> > market how do we approach this niche market and with what

message

done
> > by whom and under what circumstances and so forth.
> >
> > Ron Getty
> > SF Libertarian
> >
> > From: Lady Aster <ms_shiris@ ..>
> > To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2006 12:13:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism

to

seek
> > to build a mass movement
> >
> > If I may interject-
> >
> > I know plenty of people dependant in one way or another on the
state.
> > None of them like the system, and most resent its control ovr

and

> > indifference to their lives. They support the system tepidly
because
> > they know of no other practical choice and know the Republicans
whpo
> > represent the 'free market' in their eyes would gladly leave

them

to
> > die. Some of them take benefits from the system more or less

for

> > granted- true... mainly because they've given up hope as
functioning
> > as individuals, usually because various systems of oppression
(statism
> > included) have painted them into a spiritual and physial corner.
> >
> > Tell them they can be free. Shut up about how Teh Welfare State
> > steals from innocent middle class taxpayers, who the poor

rightly

see
> > as winners in a rigged rage. Tell them instead how the welfare
state
> > enriches bureaucrats and steals the opportunities that would
permit
> > them a chance of independence. Describe to them how life would
be if
> > they could start their own businesses. Support plans for non-
state
> > community actions like the South Central farmers in Los

Angeles.

Stop
> > acting like anyonw who cares deeply about social injustice is
about to
> > summon a socialist bogeyman and learn, dammit, to care

yourself.

> > Don't sneer down your nose at the culture, experiences, or

value

of
> > the poor. Listen to them, and assume they will be right about

at

> > least some things they know more about than you do. Don't balme
them
> > for using a welfare system to stay alive.
> >
> > Poor people deal with hateful, indifference, and manipulative
> > bureaucrats every week. They don;t have to be told what the
welfare
> > state is life- but Republcans and Democrats alike tell them

their

> > choice is between the welfare state and being thrown to the
wolves.
> > Show them the market isn't about wolves but instead the welfare
> > statists are playing a terrible con game and keeping them in
> > captivity. Show them what freedom feels like.
> >
> > Protest first not wealth transfers but the controls the welfare
state
> > enforces on people. Libertarians should rise in anger when
government
> > largesse is used to control peoples lives or serf-farm them out
to
> > corporations as 'workfare'. Don't tell the poor that they are
lazy if
> > they don't want to work in humiliating jobs at starvation wages-

show
> > how our crony capitalist system is at fault for offering them
nothing
> > but humiliation and starvation wages. Show how the spirit of
liberty
> > is the same spirit which could empower you against everyone who
wants
> > to run their lives- whether that be the state, corporate

bosses,

> > welfare bureaucrats, criminal gangs, or abusive parents and
husbands.
> >
> > Don't act like the poor are your natural enemies and the rich

are

your
> > natural friends. Don't act like corporatism, rife with

privilege

and
> > racism, in equivalent to your ideal. Don;t act like the middle
class
> > or 'productive citizens' are better than them, your first
priority, or
> > have their positions because f merit or special virtue in a

state

> > capitalist world where the real mechanism of a free market has
> > marginal play. Talk to people. Invite them your meetings.
Reach out
> > and understand their concerns and show that libertarianism will
help
> > them, not how morality shows they should help you.
> >
> > Trust people to want a life of their own. I am poor myself, in
> > economic terms. I am a survivor of child abuse and because of
that
> > suffer from trauma that has ruined my health. I earn just

enough

> > money to live on and have on more than one occasion counted my
cash on
> > hand in the low double digits. But I don't feel poor- because I
live
> > free from bosses, from parents- and from state tyranny.
Admittedly
> > the nature of my profession and my single existence makes my
situation
> > much easier. But I believe the fierce joy I feel every time I
> > remember that I am FREE is something common to the human spirit.
> >
> > Libertarianism was once a pro-labour, pro-working class
philosophy.
> > The orginal classical economists such as Smith and Ricardo

turned

> > their fire on mercantilism precisely with an eye to corporate
statism
> > institutional exploitation of the poor. The most radical
> > libertarians- such as Benjamin Tucker who edited the orginal
liberty,
> > were anarchists who called themselves socialists- socialists
because
> > they stood against the exploitation of labour which they saw as
made
> > possible my the state. Libertarianism contains a strain of
theorists,
> > from Alfred J. Nock to Karl Hess to Roy Childs and Sam Konkin,
who
> > protested social injustice no less than state coercion. And the
left
> > itself has long had a libertarian wing- from anarchists such as
Emma
> > Goldman to countercultural writers such as Paul Goodman and

Ellen

> > Willis, which libertarians have not made dialogue with ignored.
> >
> > Reach out. Act like you believe liberty will improve the life

of

the
> > living person you are talking too. Act like they want to be
free. If
> > they believe a free market will not give them a better life,

make

sure
> > that you really care about their lfe being better- if you catch
> > yourself thinking their worse life is a price you are willing

to

pay
> > for the free market then the problem is yours, not theirs. Make
sure
> > YOU don't really believe your philosophy will benefit you and

not

> > them. If you think that virtue requires their sacrifices, do

not

be
> > surprised if they reject your virtue.
> >
> > Extend your conception of liberty to something more than formal
> > noncoercion. When someeone spelas of the tyranny of their boss,
don;t
> > tell them the relationship is 'voluntary' and thus the tyranny
isn't
> > real- tell them instead how statism makes possible social and
economic
> > relations that always feel like heirarchy and tyranny. If you
don't
> > feel this, maybe you need to learn to rebel against the boss
> > yourslef... and it just might be the reason you don;t feel

this,

and
> > they do... is because you are bribed well for your corporate
serfdom,
> > and they are bribed poorly. In which case it is your love of
freedom
> > for its own sake that has been dampened, and theirs which still
> > flares. In a certain sense a poor person who reaches for the
state to
> > fight corporate tyranny they deeply resent is more libertarian
than
> > the libertarian with perfect theory who meekly submits to
the 'just'
> > control of bosses micromanaging their lives.
> >
> > Above all- understand, identify, *care*. Yes, keep your linear
> > theories of libertarian justice. You are, I suspect, right

about

> > them. But your correct theories do not reach the
underprivileged. It
> > is time you stop blaming the underprvilieged for this and asked
> > yourself 'why?'
> >
> > love and strife,
> >
> > Lady Aster <image.tiff>
> >
> > {)(*)(}
> >
> > Freude, schöner Götterfunken
> > Tochter aus Elysium,
> > Wir betreten feuertrunken,
> > Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!
> > Deine Zauber binden wieder
> > Was die Mode streng geteilt.
> > Alle Menschen werden Brüder
> > Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.
> <image.tiff> email ms_shiris@hotmail. com <image.tiff>
> >
> <image.tiff>
> >
> > From: Ron Getty <tradergroupe@ yahoo.com>
> > Reply-To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> > To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> > Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism

to

seek
> > to build a mass movement
> > Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 10:19:46 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> > Dear Starchild;
> >
> > In the statement you sent us by Roger Kulp he said: They don't
seem
> > to realize you can accomplish more with a
> > populist movement... organizing massive numbers of the
disaffected
> > poor and lower middle class against an authoritative and
oppressive
> > state."
> >
> > Okay - so how can this be done? What message would you say to
these
> > people - tens of thousands of whom are unfortunately reliant on
state
> > or federal largesse (at the taxpayers expense I may add) in one
way or
> > another - which would attract their support and how would they

be

> > organized so they would realize by their actions - if

successful -

> > they would lose the largesse they receive in various welfare -
housing
> > - medical programs etc etc etc and realize by so doing it would
be for
> > their betterment?
> >
> > Ron Getty
> > SF Libertarian
> >
> > From: Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlin k .net>
> > To: grassrootslibertari ans@yahoogroups. com; LPSF Discussion
List
> > <lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 5, 2006 6:51:06 PM
> > Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism to
seek to
> > build a mass movement
> >
> > "The modern history of Libertarianism seems to be one of trying

to

> > adapt [to] the modern political system of parties and
fundraising. It's
> > all about money, which is why they have gone after

the "privileged

> > conformists" ...This is a big reason they have failed to
accomplish
> > anything. They don't seem to realize you can accomplish more

with

a
> > populist movement... organizing massive numbers of the
disaffected poor
> > and lower middle class against an authoritative and oppressive
state."
> >
> > -Roger Kulp on LeftLibertarian list, 8/3/06
> > (a few superfluous commas removed)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> > Check out the future of MSN Spaces! Share with friends and
explore
> > new ones.
> >
> >
> >
> Ron,
>
>
> I do appreciate your interest in this approach, but I strongly
> believe we should avoid taking a sales/marketing/ advertising
> viewpoint. That's the language of the corporate business world,

not

> the language of a mass movement of the people, which is what we

are

> (or should be) aiming to create. There are other terms and

phrases

we
> can use which have roughly similar meanings without the negative
> connotations, such as "outreach," "persuade," "teach," "get the

word

> out," etc.
>
>
> Love & liberty,
>
> <<<<<< starchild >>>
>
>
>
>
>
> <excerpt>Dear Lady Aster;
>
>
>
> Very well said from your heart and at the heart of the matter.
>
>
>
> There is an e-mail in response I sent earlier about how or what we
> should be doing which you may receive eventually based on yahoo
group
> mail forwarding where I addressed the issue from a sales marketing
> advertising viewpoint of just whom is our niche market -
specifically
> in good old SF - and once we have definitively identified this

niche

> market how do we approach this niche market and with what message
done
> by whom and under what circumstances and so forth.
>
>
>
> Ron Getty
>
> SF Libertarian
>
>
>
> From: Lady Aster <<ms_shiris@ ...>
>
> To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
>
> Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2006 12:13:12 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism to
seek
> to build a mass movement
>
>
> If I may interject-
>
>
> I know plenty of people dependant in one way or another on the
state.
> None of them like the system, and most resent its control ovr and
> indifference to their lives. They support the system tepidly
because
> they know of no other practical choice and know the Republicans

whpo

> represent the 'free market' in their eyes would gladly leave them

to

> die. Some of them take benefits from the system more or less for
> granted- true... mainly because they've given up hope as

functioning

> as individuals, usually because various systems of oppression
(statism
> included) have painted them into a spiritual and physial corner.
>
>
> Tell them they can be free. Shut up about how Teh Welfare State
> steals from innocent middle class taxpayers, who the poor rightly
see
> as winners in a rigged rage. Tell them instead how the welfare
state
> enriches bureaucrats and steals the opportunities that would

permit

> them a chance of independence. Describe to them how life would be
if
> they could start their own businesses. Support plans for non-state
> community actions like the South Central farmers in Los Angeles.
Stop
> acting like anyonw who cares deeply about social injustice is

about

to
> summon a socialist bogeyman and learn, dammit, to care yourself.
> Don't sneer down your nose at the culture, experiences, or value

of

> the poor. Listen to them, and assume they will be right about at
> least some things they know more about than you do. Don't balme
them
> for using a welfare system to stay alive.
>
>
> Poor people deal with hateful, indifference, and manipulative
> bureaucrats every week. They don;t have to be told what the

welfare

> state is life- but Republcans and Democrats alike tell them their
> choice is between the welfare state and being thrown to the

wolves.

> Show them the market isn't about wolves but instead the welfare
> statists are playing a terrible con game and keeping them in
> captivity. Show them what freedom feels like.
>
>
> Protest first not wealth transfers but the controls the welfare
state
> enforces on people. Libertarians should rise in anger when
government
> largesse is used to control peoples lives or serf-farm them out to
> corporations as 'workfare'. Don't tell the poor that they are

lazy

if
> they don't want to work in humiliating jobs at starvation wages-
show
> how our crony capitalist system is at fault for offering them
nothing
> but humiliation and starvation wages. Show how the spirit of
liberty
> is the same spirit which could empower you against everyone who
wants
> to run their lives- whether that be the state, corporate bosses,
> welfare bureaucrats, criminal gangs, or abusive parents and
husbands.
>
>
> Don't act like the poor are your natural enemies and the rich are
your
> natural friends. Don't act like corporatism, rife with privilege
and
> racism, in equivalent to your ideal. Don;t act like the middle
class
> or 'productive citizens' are better than them, your first

priority,

or
> have their positions because f merit or special virtue in a state
> capitalist world where the real mechanism of a free market has
> marginal play. Talk to people. Invite them your meetings. Reach
out
> and understand their concerns and show that libertarianism will

help

> them, not how morality shows they should help you.
>
>
> Trust people to want a life of their own. I am poor myself, in
> economic terms. I am a survivor of child abuse and because of that
> suffer from trauma that has ruined my health. I earn just enough
> money to live on and have on more than one occasion counted my

cash

on
> hand in the low double digits. But I don't feel poor- because I
live
> free from bosses, from parents- and from state tyranny. Admittedly
> the nature of my profession and my single existence makes my
situation
> much easier. But I believe the fierce joy I feel every time I
> remember that I am FREE is something common to the human spirit.
>
>
> Libertarianism was once a pro-labour, pro-working class

philosophy.

> The orginal classical economists such as Smith and Ricardo turned
> their fire on mercantilism precisely with an eye to corporate
statism
> institutional exploitation of the poor. The most radical
> libertarians- such as Benjamin Tucker who edited the orginal
liberty,
> were anarchists who called themselves socialists- socialists

because

> they stood against the exploitation of labour which they saw as

made

> possible my the state. Libertarianism contains a strain of
theorists,
> from Alfred J. Nock to Karl Hess to Roy Childs and Sam Konkin, who
> protested social injustice no less than state coercion. And the
left
> itself has long had a libertarian wing- from anarchists such as

Emma

> Goldman to countercultural writers such as Paul Goodman and Ellen
> Willis, which libertarians have not made dialogue with ignored.
>
>
> Reach out. Act like you believe liberty will improve the life of
the
> living person you are talking too. Act like they want to be free.
If
> they believe a free market will not give them a better life, make
sure
> that you really care about their lfe being better- if you catch
> yourself thinking their worse life is a price you are willing to

pay

> for the free market then the problem is yours, not theirs. Make
sure
> YOU don't really believe your philosophy will benefit you and not
> them. If you think that virtue requires their sacrifices, do not

be

> surprised if they reject your virtue.
>
>
> Extend your conception of liberty to something more than formal
> noncoercion. When someeone spelas of the tyranny of their boss,
don;t
> tell them the relationship is 'voluntary' and thus the tyranny

isn't

> real- tell them instead how statism makes possible social and
economic
> relations that always feel like heirarchy and tyranny. If you

don't

> feel this, maybe you need to learn to rebel against the boss
> yourslef... and it just might be the reason you don;t feel this,

and

> they do... is because you are bribed well for your corporate
serfdom,
> and they are bribed poorly. In which case it is your love of
freedom
> for its own sake that has been dampened, and theirs which still
> flares. In a certain sense a poor person who reaches for the

state

to
> fight corporate tyranny they deeply resent is more libertarian

than

> the libertarian with perfect theory who meekly submits to

the 'just'

> control of bosses micromanaging their lives.
>
>
> Above all- understand, identify, *care*. Yes, keep your linear
> theories of libertarian justice. You are, I suspect, right about
> them. But your correct theories do not reach the underprivileged.
It
> is time you stop blaming the underprvilieged for this and asked
> yourself 'why?'
>
>
> love and strife,
>
>
> <italic><smaller> L</smaller> ady
>
<smaller>A</ smaller>ster< /italic>< fontfamily>

<param>Times< /param><smal

> <<image.tiff> </smaller> </fontfamily>
>
>
> {<bold><fontfamily> <param>Arial
Black</param> <color><param> FFFF,0000, 0000</param> )
(<underline> *</underline> )(</color> </fontfamily> </bold>}
>
>
> <italic><color> <param>FFFF, 0000,9999< /param>Freude, schöner
> Götterfunken< /color></ italic>
>
> <italic><color> <param>FFFF, 0000,9999< /param>Tochter aus
Elysium,</color> </italic>
>
> <italic><color> <param>FFFF, 0000,9999< /param>Wir betreten
feuertrunken, </color>< /italic>
>
> <italic><color> <param>FFFF, 0000,9999< /param>Himmlisch e, dein
Heiligtum!</ color></italic>
>
> <italic><color> <param>FFFF, 0000,9999< /param>Deine Zauber

binden

wieder</color> </italic>
>
> <italic><color> <param>FFFF, 0000,9999< /param>Was die Mode streng
> geteilt.</color> </italic>
>
> <italic><color> <param>FFFF, 0000,9999< /param>Alle Menschen

werden

Brüder</color> </italic>
>
> <italic><color> <param>FFFF, 0000,9999< /param>Wo dein sanfter

Flügel

> weilt.</color> </italic>
>
> </excerpt><< image.tiff> email
> <underline>< color><param> 0000,0000, 0000</param> ms_shiris@

hotmail.

> com</color>< /underline> <<image.tiff>
>
> <excerpt>
>
> </excerpt><< image.tiff>
>
> <excerpt>
>
> From: <italic>Ron Getty <<tradergroupe@ yahoo.com>
>
> </italic>Reply- To: <italic>lpsf- discuss@ yahoogroups. com
>
> </italic>To: <italic>lpsf- discuss@ yahoogroups. com
>
> </italic>Subject: <italic>Re: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of
> libertarianism to seek to build a mass movement
>
> </italic>Date: <italic>Sun, 6 Aug 2006 10:19:46 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
> </italic>Dear Starchild;
>
>
>
> In the statement you sent us by Roger Kulp he said: They don't

seem

> to realize you can accomplish more with a
>
> populist movement... organizing massive numbers of the disaffected
> poor and lower middle class against an authoritative and

oppressive

> state."
>
>
>
> Okay - so how can this be done? What message would you say to

these

> people - tens of thousands of whom are unfortunately reliant on
state
> or federal largesse (at the taxpayers expense I may add) in one

way

or
> another - which would attract their support and how would they be
> organized so they would realize by their actions - if successful -
> they would lose the largesse they receive in various welfare -
housing
> - medical programs etc etc etc and realize by so doing it would

be

for
> their betterment?
>
>
>
> Ron Getty
>
> SF Libertarian
>
>
>
> From: Starchild <<sfdreamer@ earthlink .net>
>
> To: grassrootslibertari ans@yahoogroups. com; LPSF Discussion List
> <<lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com>
>
> Sent: Saturday, August 5, 2006 6:51:06 PM
>
> Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism to

seek

to
> build a mass movement
>
>
> "The modern history of Libertarianism seems to be one of trying to
>
> adapt [to] the modern political system of parties and

fundraising.

It's
>
> all about money, which is why they have gone after the "privileged
>
> conformists" ...This is a big reason they have failed to

accomplish

>
> anything. They don't seem to realize you can accomplish more with

a

>
> populist movement... organizing massive numbers of the

disaffected

poor
>
> and lower middle class against an authoritative and oppressive
state."
>
>
> -Roger Kulp on LeftLibertarian list, 8/3/06
>
> (a few superfluous commas removed)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> </excerpt>
>
> <excerpt>
>
> <underline>< color><param> 1999,1999, FFFF</param> Check out the

future

Dear Lady Aster;

At this late time of night I can not pass up opportunites to be punny as humor provides a better pillow to sleep on then angst and anger and anxiety - something to do with the humorous bone I believe.

Gute Nacht Fraulein Aster and Boa Noite Signora Berry and Spokoinoi nochi for Everyone Else.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

Dear Marcy;

Please remember the 7 P's of success: Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents P*** Poor Performance. We can do the events as they happen or occur approach but still have some general generic idea in mind of why them events at that time as it pertains to the LPSF and our goals - whatever they may be.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

By all means. Please, I would always want you to sleep with the right words under your pillow.

dream on,

Lady Aster

{)(*)(}

*Freude, sch�ner G�tterfunken*
*Tochter aus Elysium,*
*Wir betreten feuertrunken,*
*Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!*
*Deine Zauber binden wieder*
*Was die Mode streng geteilt.*
*Alle Menschen werden Br�der*
*Wo dein sanfter Fl�gel weilt.*

email ms_shiris@…

Dear Ron,

Thank you for the Words of Wisdom. I agree with them 100%, and of
course would help in any way I can if we as a group decide in the
formulation of a plan.

Marcy

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...>
wrote:

Dear Marcy;

Please remember the 7 P's of success: Proper Planning and

Preparation Prevents P*** Poor Performance. We can do the events as
they happen or occur approach but still have some general generic
idea in mind of why them events at that time as it pertains to the
LPSF and our goals - whatever they may be.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

From: Amarcy D. Berry <amarcyb@...>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2006 10:38:16 PM
Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Quote on failure of libertarianism to

seek to build a mass movement

Dear Ron,

I agree that it is good to bring to the table topics "that are of
interest to many of us." However, formulating a realistic,
professional marketing plan ain't one of them with our group, in my
opinion. That is why, for now, I would rather follow Starchild's
approach of working on events as they present themselves.

Marcy

--- In lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com, Ron Getty

<tradergroupe@ ...>

wrote:
>
> Dear Marcy;
>
> No Problemo Senora. But sometimes it is wise to bring topics to

be

discussed which should be of interest to many of us as can be

noticed

from the e-mails about grass roots and other types of grass as well
just as long as we don't start grasping at straws.
>
> So as the saying goes I will bang the drum quietly as of course
each person marches to the beat of a different drummer as they bark
up the wrong tree searching for converts while bonging through the
night |;-]
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
>
> From: Amarcy D. Berry <amarcyb@ >
> To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2006 9:46:47 PM
> Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Quote on failure of libertarianism to
seek to build a mass movement
>
> Dear Ron,
>
> I have no problem revisiting marketing/outreach at the next

meeting

> as you suggest if there is interest. However, I feel that our

focus

> right now should be on the Police Petition, if we are serious on
> getting this effort off the ground. I realize that knowing our
> potential constituency *might* help in our Petition efforts, but
not
> to the extent that would, in my own opinion, make it wise to re-
> introduce the topic, which in the past has proven rather
challenging.
> I stand guilty of mentioning the marketing/outreach subject; I
should
> not have done so.
>
> Marcy
>
> --- In lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com, Ron Getty
<tradergroupe@ ...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Starchild;
> >
> > Okay - you said in part: There are other terms and phrases we

can

> use which have roughly similar meanings without the negative
> connotations, such as "outreach," "persuade," "teach," "get the
word
> out," etc.
> >
> > So in using those words who are our outreach mass movement

people

> in SF? How would you identify the people to whom our Message

would

> provide enlightenment on their exploitation by the government as
> socialized experiments bought for with tax money? What words we
would
> use to teach and persuade them about the Libertarian message?

What

> means would be used to get the word out? Who or whom would be the
> Messangers and what Message would they use or adapt when

Messaging

to
> the particualr mass movement peoples? Large group - small groups -

> church groups - social groups - school groups - etc etc etc
> >
> > We can discuss this at next Saturdays LPSF meeting as new

business

(
> ooooops can't use the word business it's too corporate) lets's

try

> the words have a group think touchie feelie - instead of

business -

> talk about the mass movement outreach program.
> >
> > Ron Getty
> > SF Libertarian
> >
> > From: Starchild <sfdreamer@ ..>
> > To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2006 2:24:30 PM
> > Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism

to

> seek to build a mass movement
> >
> >
> > Ron,
> >
> > I do appreciate your interest in this approach, but I strongly
> believe
> > we should avoid taking a sales/marketing/ advertising

viewpoint.

> That's
> > the language of the corporate business world, not the language

of

a
> > mass movement of the people, which is what we are (or should

be)

> aiming
> > to create. There are other terms and phrases we can use which
have
> > roughly similar meanings without the negative connotations,

such

as
> > "outreach," "persuade," "teach," "get the word out," etc.
> >
> > Love & liberty,
> > <<< starchild >>>
> >
> >
> >
> > > Dear Lady Aster;
> > >
> > > Very well said from your heart and at the heart of the matter.
> > >
> > > There is an e-mail in response I sent earlier about how or

what

> we
> > > should be doing which you may receive eventually based on

yahoo

> group
> > > mail forwarding where I addressed the issue from a sales
> marketing
> > > advertising viewpoint of just whom is our niche market -
> specifically
> > > in good old SF - and once we have definitively identified

this

> niche
> > > market how do we approach this niche market and with what
message
> done
> > > by whom and under what circumstances and so forth.
> > >
> > > Ron Getty
> > > SF Libertarian
> > >
> > > From: Lady Aster <ms_shiris@ ..>
> > > To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2006 12:13:12 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of

libertarianism

to
> seek
> > > to build a mass movement
> > >
> > > If I may interject-
> > >
> > > I know plenty of people dependant in one way or another on

the

> state.
> > > None of them like the system, and most resent its control ovr
and
> > > indifference to their lives. They support the system tepidly
> because
> > > they know of no other practical choice and know the

Republicans

> whpo
> > > represent the 'free market' in their eyes would gladly leave
them
> to
> > > die. Some of them take benefits from the system more or less
for
> > > granted- true... mainly because they've given up hope as
> functioning
> > > as individuals, usually because various systems of oppression
> (statism
> > > included) have painted them into a spiritual and physial

corner.

> > >
> > > Tell them they can be free. Shut up about how Teh Welfare

State

> > > steals from innocent middle class taxpayers, who the poor
rightly
> see
> > > as winners in a rigged rage. Tell them instead how the

welfare

> state
> > > enriches bureaucrats and steals the opportunities that would
> permit
> > > them a chance of independence. Describe to them how life

would

> be if
> > > they could start their own businesses. Support plans for non-
> state
> > > community actions like the South Central farmers in Los
Angeles.
> Stop
> > > acting like anyonw who cares deeply about social injustice is
> about to
> > > summon a socialist bogeyman and learn, dammit, to care
yourself.
> > > Don't sneer down your nose at the culture, experiences, or
value
> of
> > > the poor. Listen to them, and assume they will be right about
at
> > > least some things they know more about than you do. Don't

balme

> them
> > > for using a welfare system to stay alive.
> > >
> > > Poor people deal with hateful, indifference, and manipulative
> > > bureaucrats every week. They don;t have to be told what the
> welfare
> > > state is life- but Republcans and Democrats alike tell them
their
> > > choice is between the welfare state and being thrown to the
> wolves.
> > > Show them the market isn't about wolves but instead the

welfare

> > > statists are playing a terrible con game and keeping them in
> > > captivity. Show them what freedom feels like.
> > >
> > > Protest first not wealth transfers but the controls the

welfare

> state
> > > enforces on people. Libertarians should rise in anger when
> government
> > > largesse is used to control peoples lives or serf-farm them

out

> to
> > > corporations as 'workfare'. Don't tell the poor that they are
> lazy if
> > > they don't want to work in humiliating jobs at starvation

wages-

> show
> > > how our crony capitalist system is at fault for offering them
> nothing
> > > but humiliation and starvation wages. Show how the spirit of
> liberty
> > > is the same spirit which could empower you against everyone

who

> wants
> > > to run their lives- whether that be the state, corporate
bosses,
> > > welfare bureaucrats, criminal gangs, or abusive parents and
> husbands.
> > >
> > > Don't act like the poor are your natural enemies and the rich
are
> your
> > > natural friends. Don't act like corporatism, rife with
privilege
> and
> > > racism, in equivalent to your ideal. Don;t act like the

middle

> class
> > > or 'productive citizens' are better than them, your first
> priority, or
> > > have their positions because f merit or special virtue in a
state
> > > capitalist world where the real mechanism of a free market

has

> > > marginal play. Talk to people. Invite them your meetings.
> Reach out
> > > and understand their concerns and show that libertarianism

will

> help
> > > them, not how morality shows they should help you.
> > >
> > > Trust people to want a life of their own. I am poor myself,

in

> > > economic terms. I am a survivor of child abuse and because of
> that
> > > suffer from trauma that has ruined my health. I earn just
enough
> > > money to live on and have on more than one occasion counted

my

> cash on
> > > hand in the low double digits. But I don't feel poor- because

I

> live
> > > free from bosses, from parents- and from state tyranny.
> Admittedly
> > > the nature of my profession and my single existence makes my
> situation
> > > much easier. But I believe the fierce joy I feel every time I
> > > remember that I am FREE is something common to the human

spirit.

> > >
> > > Libertarianism was once a pro-labour, pro-working class
> philosophy.
> > > The orginal classical economists such as Smith and Ricardo
turned
> > > their fire on mercantilism precisely with an eye to corporate
> statism
> > > institutional exploitation of the poor. The most radical
> > > libertarians- such as Benjamin Tucker who edited the orginal
> liberty,
> > > were anarchists who called themselves socialists- socialists
> because
> > > they stood against the exploitation of labour which they saw

as

> made
> > > possible my the state. Libertarianism contains a strain of
> theorists,
> > > from Alfred J. Nock to Karl Hess to Roy Childs and Sam

Konkin,

> who
> > > protested social injustice no less than state coercion. And

the

> left
> > > itself has long had a libertarian wing- from anarchists such

as

> Emma
> > > Goldman to countercultural writers such as Paul Goodman and
Ellen
> > > Willis, which libertarians have not made dialogue with

ignored.

> > >
> > > Reach out. Act like you believe liberty will improve the life
of
> the
> > > living person you are talking too. Act like they want to be
> free. If
> > > they believe a free market will not give them a better life,
make
> sure
> > > that you really care about their lfe being better- if you

catch

> > > yourself thinking their worse life is a price you are willing
to
> pay
> > > for the free market then the problem is yours, not theirs.

Make

> sure
> > > YOU don't really believe your philosophy will benefit you and
not
> > > them. If you think that virtue requires their sacrifices, do
not
> be
> > > surprised if they reject your virtue.
> > >
> > > Extend your conception of liberty to something more than

formal

> > > noncoercion. When someeone spelas of the tyranny of their

boss,

> don;t
> > > tell them the relationship is 'voluntary' and thus the

tyranny

> isn't
> > > real- tell them instead how statism makes possible social and
> economic
> > > relations that always feel like heirarchy and tyranny. If you
> don't
> > > feel this, maybe you need to learn to rebel against the boss
> > > yourslef... and it just might be the reason you don;t feel
this,
> and
> > > they do... is because you are bribed well for your corporate
> serfdom,
> > > and they are bribed poorly. In which case it is your love of
> freedom
> > > for its own sake that has been dampened, and theirs which

still

> > > flares. In a certain sense a poor person who reaches for the
> state to
> > > fight corporate tyranny they deeply resent is more

libertarian

> than
> > > the libertarian with perfect theory who meekly submits to
> the 'just'
> > > control of bosses micromanaging their lives.
> > >
> > > Above all- understand, identify, *care*. Yes, keep your

linear

> > > theories of libertarian justice. You are, I suspect, right
about
> > > them. But your correct theories do not reach the
> underprivileged. It
> > > is time you stop blaming the underprvilieged for this and

asked

> > > yourself 'why?'
> > >
> > > love and strife,
> > >
> > > Lady Aster <image.tiff>
> > >
> > > {)(*)(}
> > >
> > > Freude, schöner Götterfunken
> > > Tochter aus Elysium,
> > > Wir betreten feuertrunken,
> > > Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!
> > > Deine Zauber binden wieder
> > > Was die Mode streng geteilt.
> > > Alle Menschen werden Brüder
> > > Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.
> > <image.tiff> email ms_shiris@hotmail. com <image.tiff>
> > >
> > <image.tiff>
> > >
> > > From: Ron Getty <tradergroupe@ yahoo.com>
> > > Reply-To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> > > To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of

libertarianism

to
> seek
> > > to build a mass movement
> > > Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 10:19:46 -0700 (PDT)
> > >
> > > Dear Starchild;
> > >
> > > In the statement you sent us by Roger Kulp he said: They

don't

> seem
> > > to realize you can accomplish more with a
> > > populist movement... organizing massive numbers of the
> disaffected
> > > poor and lower middle class against an authoritative and
> oppressive
> > > state."
> > >
> > > Okay - so how can this be done? What message would you say to
> these
> > > people - tens of thousands of whom are unfortunately reliant

on

> state
> > > or federal largesse (at the taxpayers expense I may add) in

one

> way or
> > > another - which would attract their support and how would

they

be
> > > organized so they would realize by their actions - if
successful -
>
> > > they would lose the largesse they receive in various welfare -

> housing
> > > - medical programs etc etc etc and realize by so doing it

would

> be for
> > > their betterment?
> > >
> > > Ron Getty
> > > SF Libertarian
> > >
> > > From: Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlin k .net>
> > > To: grassrootslibertari ans@yahoogroups. com; LPSF Discussion
> List
> > > <lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 5, 2006 6:51:06 PM
> > > Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism to
> seek to
> > > build a mass movement
> > >
> > > "The modern history of Libertarianism seems to be one of

trying

to
> > > adapt [to] the modern political system of parties and
> fundraising. It's
> > > all about money, which is why they have gone after
the "privileged
> > > conformists" ...This is a big reason they have failed to
> accomplish
> > > anything. They don't seem to realize you can accomplish more
with
> a
> > > populist movement... organizing massive numbers of the
> disaffected poor
> > > and lower middle class against an authoritative and

oppressive

> state."
> > >
> > > -Roger Kulp on LeftLibertarian list, 8/3/06
> > > (a few superfluous commas removed)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > Check out the future of MSN Spaces! Share with friends and
> explore
> > > new ones.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Ron,
> >
> >
> > I do appreciate your interest in this approach, but I strongly
> > believe we should avoid taking a sales/marketing/ advertising
> > viewpoint. That's the language of the corporate business world,
not
> > the language of a mass movement of the people, which is what we
are
> > (or should be) aiming to create. There are other terms and
phrases
> we
> > can use which have roughly similar meanings without the negative
> > connotations, such as "outreach," "persuade," "teach," "get the
word
> > out," etc.
> >
> >
> > Love & liberty,
> >
> > <<<<<< starchild >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <excerpt>Dear Lady Aster;
> >
> >
> >
> > Very well said from your heart and at the heart of the matter.
> >
> >
> >
> > There is an e-mail in response I sent earlier about how or what

we

> > should be doing which you may receive eventually based on yahoo
> group
> > mail forwarding where I addressed the issue from a sales

marketing

> > advertising viewpoint of just whom is our niche market -
> specifically
> > in good old SF - and once we have definitively identified this
niche
> > market how do we approach this niche market and with what

message

> done
> > by whom and under what circumstances and so forth.
> >
> >
> >
> > Ron Getty
> >
> > SF Libertarian
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Lady Aster <<ms_shiris@ ...>
> >
> > To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> >
> > Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2006 12:13:12 PM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism

to

> seek
> > to build a mass movement
> >
> >
> > If I may interject-
> >
> >
> > I know plenty of people dependant in one way or another on the
> state.
> > None of them like the system, and most resent its control ovr

and

> > indifference to their lives. They support the system tepidly
> because
> > they know of no other practical choice and know the Republicans
whpo
> > represent the 'free market' in their eyes would gladly leave

them

to
> > die. Some of them take benefits from the system more or less for
> > granted- true... mainly because they've given up hope as
functioning
> > as individuals, usually because various systems of oppression
> (statism
> > included) have painted them into a spiritual and physial corner.
> >
> >
> > Tell them they can be free. Shut up about how Teh Welfare State
> > steals from innocent middle class taxpayers, who the poor

rightly

> see
> > as winners in a rigged rage. Tell them instead how the welfare
> state
> > enriches bureaucrats and steals the opportunities that would
permit
> > them a chance of independence. Describe to them how life would

be

> if
> > they could start their own businesses. Support plans for non-

state

> > community actions like the South Central farmers in Los

Angeles.

> Stop
> > acting like anyonw who cares deeply about social injustice is
about
> to
> > summon a socialist bogeyman and learn, dammit, to care

yourself.

> > Don't sneer down your nose at the culture, experiences, or

value

of
> > the poor. Listen to them, and assume they will be right about at
> > least some things they know more about than you do. Don't balme
> them
> > for using a welfare system to stay alive.
> >
> >
> > Poor people deal with hateful, indifference, and manipulative
> > bureaucrats every week. They don;t have to be told what the
welfare
> > state is life- but Republcans and Democrats alike tell them

their

> > choice is between the welfare state and being thrown to the
wolves.
> > Show them the market isn't about wolves but instead the welfare
> > statists are playing a terrible con game and keeping them in
> > captivity. Show them what freedom feels like.
> >
> >
> > Protest first not wealth transfers but the controls the welfare
> state
> > enforces on people. Libertarians should rise in anger when
> government
> > largesse is used to control peoples lives or serf-farm them out

to

> > corporations as 'workfare'. Don't tell the poor that they are
lazy
> if
> > they don't want to work in humiliating jobs at starvation wages-

> show
> > how our crony capitalist system is at fault for offering them
> nothing
> > but humiliation and starvation wages. Show how the spirit of
> liberty
> > is the same spirit which could empower you against everyone who
> wants
> > to run their lives- whether that be the state, corporate bosses,
> > welfare bureaucrats, criminal gangs, or abusive parents and
> husbands.
> >
> >
> > Don't act like the poor are your natural enemies and the rich

are

> your
> > natural friends. Don't act like corporatism, rife with

privilege

> and
> > racism, in equivalent to your ideal. Don;t act like the middle
> class
> > or 'productive citizens' are better than them, your first
priority,
> or
> > have their positions because f merit or special virtue in a

state

> > capitalist world where the real mechanism of a free market has
> > marginal play. Talk to people. Invite them your meetings. Reach
> out
> > and understand their concerns and show that libertarianism will
help
> > them, not how morality shows they should help you.
> >
> >
> > Trust people to want a life of their own. I am poor myself, in
> > economic terms. I am a survivor of child abuse and because of

that

> > suffer from trauma that has ruined my health. I earn just enough
> > money to live on and have on more than one occasion counted my
cash
> on
> > hand in the low double digits. But I don't feel poor- because I
> live
> > free from bosses, from parents- and from state tyranny.

Admittedly

> > the nature of my profession and my single existence makes my
> situation
> > much easier. But I believe the fierce joy I feel every time I
> > remember that I am FREE is something common to the human spirit.
> >
> >
> > Libertarianism was once a pro-labour, pro-working class
philosophy.
> > The orginal classical economists such as Smith and Ricardo

turned

> > their fire on mercantilism precisely with an eye to corporate
> statism
> > institutional exploitation of the poor. The most radical
> > libertarians- such as Benjamin Tucker who edited the orginal
> liberty,
> > were anarchists who called themselves socialists- socialists
because
> > they stood against the exploitation of labour which they saw as
made
> > possible my the state. Libertarianism contains a strain of
> theorists,
> > from Alfred J. Nock to Karl Hess to Roy Childs and Sam Konkin,

who

> > protested social injustice no less than state coercion. And the
> left
> > itself has long had a libertarian wing- from anarchists such as
Emma
> > Goldman to countercultural writers such as Paul Goodman and

Ellen

> > Willis, which libertarians have not made dialogue with ignored.
> >
> >
> > Reach out. Act like you believe liberty will improve the life

of

> the
> > living person you are talking too. Act like they want to be

free.

> If
> > they believe a free market will not give them a better life,

make

> sure
> > that you really care about their lfe being better- if you catch
> > yourself thinking their worse life is a price you are willing

to

pay
> > for the free market then the problem is yours, not theirs. Make
> sure
> > YOU don't really believe your philosophy will benefit you and

not

> > them. If you think that virtue requires their sacrifices, do

not

be
> > surprised if they reject your virtue.
> >
> >
> > Extend your conception of liberty to something more than formal
> > noncoercion. When someeone spelas of the tyranny of their boss,
> don;t
> > tell them the relationship is 'voluntary' and thus the tyranny
isn't
> > real- tell them instead how statism makes possible social and
> economic
> > relations that always feel like heirarchy and tyranny. If you
don't
> > feel this, maybe you need to learn to rebel against the boss
> > yourslef... and it just might be the reason you don;t feel

this,

and
> > they do... is because you are bribed well for your corporate
> serfdom,
> > and they are bribed poorly. In which case it is your love of
> freedom
> > for its own sake that has been dampened, and theirs which still
> > flares. In a certain sense a poor person who reaches for the
state
> to
> > fight corporate tyranny they deeply resent is more libertarian
than
> > the libertarian with perfect theory who meekly submits to
the 'just'
> > control of bosses micromanaging their lives.
> >
> >
> > Above all- understand, identify, *care*. Yes, keep your linear
> > theories of libertarian justice. You are, I suspect, right about
> > them. But your correct theories do not reach the

underprivileged.

> It
> > is time you stop blaming the underprvilieged for this and asked
> > yourself 'why?'
> >
> >
> > love and strife,
> >
> >
> > <italic><smaller> L</smaller> ady
> >
> <smaller>A</ smaller>ster< /italic>< fontfamily>
<param>Times< /param><smal
> > <<image.tiff> </smaller> </fontfamily>
> >
> >
> > {<bold><fontfamily> <param>Arial
> Black</param> <color><param> FFFF,0000, 0000</param> )
> (<underline> *</underline> )(</color> </fontfamily> </bold>}
> >
> >
> > <italic><color> <param>FFFF, 0000,9999< /param>Freude,

schöner

> > Götterfunken< /color></ italic>
> >
> > <italic><color> <param>FFFF, 0000,9999< /param>Tochter aus
> Elysium,</color> </italic>
> >
> > <italic><color> <param>FFFF, 0000,9999< /param>Wir betreten
> feuertrunken, </color>< /italic>
> >
> > <italic><color> <param>FFFF, 0000,9999< /param>Himmlisch e,

dein

> Heiligtum!</ color></italic>
> >
> > <italic><color> <param>FFFF, 0000,9999< /param>Deine Zauber
binden
> wieder</color> </italic>
> >
> > <italic><color> <param>FFFF, 0000,9999< /param>Was die Mode

streng

> > geteilt.</color> </italic>
> >
> > <italic><color> <param>FFFF, 0000,9999< /param>Alle Menschen
werden
> Brüder</color> </italic>
> >
> > <italic><color> <param>FFFF, 0000,9999< /param>Wo dein sanfter
Flügel
> > weilt.</color> </italic>
> >
> > </excerpt><< image.tiff> email
> > <underline>< color><param> 0000,0000, 0000</param> ms_shiris@
hotmail.
> > com</color>< /underline> <<image.tiff>
> >
> > <excerpt>
> >
> > </excerpt><< image.tiff>
> >
> > <excerpt>
> >
> > From: <italic>Ron Getty <<tradergroupe@ yahoo.com>
> >
> > </italic>Reply- To: <italic>lpsf- discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> >
> > </italic>To: <italic>lpsf- discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> >
> > </italic>Subject: <italic>Re: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of
> > libertarianism to seek to build a mass movement
> >
> > </italic>Date: <italic>Sun, 6 Aug 2006 10:19:46 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >
> > </italic>Dear Starchild;
> >
> >
> >
> > In the statement you sent us by Roger Kulp he said: They don't
seem
> > to realize you can accomplish more with a
> >
> > populist movement... organizing massive numbers of the

disaffected

> > poor and lower middle class against an authoritative and
oppressive
> > state."
> >
> >
> >
> > Okay - so how can this be done? What message would you say to
these
> > people - tens of thousands of whom are unfortunately reliant on
> state
> > or federal largesse (at the taxpayers expense I may add) in one
way
> or
> > another - which would attract their support and how would they

be

> > organized so they would realize by their actions - if

successful -

> > they would lose the largesse they receive in various welfare -
> housing
> > - medical programs etc etc etc and realize by so doing it would
be
> for
> > their betterment?
> >
> >
> >
> > Ron Getty
> >
> > SF Libertarian
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Starchild <<sfdreamer@ earthlink .net>
> >
> > To: grassrootslibertari ans@yahoogroups. com; LPSF Discussion

List

> > <<lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com>
> >
> > Sent: Saturday, August 5, 2006 6:51:06 PM
> >
> > Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Quote on failure of libertarianism to
seek
> to
> > build a mass movement
> >
> >
> > "The modern history of Libertarianism seems to be one of trying

to

> >
> > adapt [to] the modern political system of parties and
fundraising.
> It's
> >
> > all about money, which is why they have gone after

the "privileged

> >
> > conformists" ...This is a big reason they have failed to
accomplish
> >
> > anything. They don't seem to realize you can accomplish more

with

a
> >
> > populist movement... organizing massive numbers of the
disaffected
> poor
> >
> > and lower middle class against an authoritative and oppressive
> state."
> >
> >
> > -Roger Kulp on LeftLibertarian list, 8/3/06
> >
> > (a few superfluous commas removed)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > </excerpt>
> >
> > <excerpt>
> >
> > <underline>< color><param> 1999,1999, FFFF</param> Check out

the

Dear Marcy;

It does not necessarily have to be a formal plan but some ultimate goal of some kind would be good for us as a group.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

Ron,

  Same objective as the one you quote from Dr. King -- to be free at last.

Love & liberty,
        <<< starchild >>>