Questioning nationalist language and "self"-determination

Starchild, reading your post I thought, on the face of it, the question
seemed like a simple answer was forthcoming but while contemplating a response,
like peeling an onion, I found the response much deeper and interesting and
worthy of introspection. I also learned a new word "hegemony." Thank you for that.

I believe rights are God given and government is there to protect them, not
create or deal them out. I think we agree here.

The question of nationalism seems to be the problem you see in the use of "
we" and "us" as you cite a real fear of national governments and the pain they
have caused. My gut response is to defend nationalism because for years one
worlders and socialist's have been trying to give it a bad name. Unfortunately,
the very word, “nationalism,” evokes negative connotations — associated, as it
can be, with flag-waving, goose-stepping rallies at Nuremberg. However, the
wholly American concept of nationalism — or “Americanism,” to employ a more
appropriate term — is a unifying rather than a divisive force. “Americanism”
gently reminds us that, despite differences in race, religious background, and
ethnic origin, we are all one and the same under the law. We are bound by the
motto “E pluribus unum” (“From the many, one”).

George Orwell wrote a great essay on nationalism back in the 40's. In it, he
warned of that nationalism should not be confused with patriotism. He argued
that nationalism goes hand in hand with the desire for power and prestige where
patriotism is a devotion to a particular place or way of life with no desire
to force it upon others. So maybe, American-Patriatism would be a better thing
for me to argue? American-Patriatism should be comfortable with creative
chaos, understanding that freedom and liberty sometimes are messy. Regardless,
"we" are Americans and should cradle and hold dear the things we believe are
right with this great land and work to change the things we think are wrong. Like
some in this group, hating "our" government, seeing black helicopters
everywhere and finding nothing but fault is not conducive to change or recruitment, it
only attracts the loonies.

Live free or die, Michael S.

In a message dated 10/24/03 8:02:10 AM, sfdreamer@... writes:

<< The earlier post I was referring to is copied below. To further
elaborate -- it's difficult (impossible?) to speak about life without
using a frame of reference. But I feel that a national frame of
reference is just about the worst one we could choose. Why? Because
communicating in a particular frame of reference will strengthen that
worldview in people's minds.

    Given that the worst problems in the world are due to the actions of
national governments, the last thing we ought to be doing is using a
nationalist frame of reference that reinforces their hegemony.
Nationalism is the lifeblood of national governments. Without the sense
of allegiance that "their" peoples tend to feel toward them, what power
would they possess?

    Libertarianism also holds that if such things as rights exist, they
exist universally, i.e. we do not believe that rights are created by
governments. If they exist, they must exist naturally in each of us.
But the nationalist (as opposed to a globalist or universalist) frame
of reference undermines this view of the inherent and universal nature
of rights, and suggest that what rights you have ought to be a function
of which government's jurisdiction you fall under.

Yours in liberty,
                            <<< Starchild >>> >>

Michael,

  Thanks for your thoughtful comments. More responses follow...

Starchild, reading your post I thought, on the face of it, the question
seemed like a simple answer was forthcoming but while contemplating a response,
like peeling an onion, I found the response much deeper and interesting and
worthy of introspection. I also learned a new word "hegemony." Thank you for that.

I believe rights are God given and government is there to protect them, not
create or deal them out. I think we agree here.

  Yes, although I would say innate rather than "God given." If one holds that rights are granted to humans by some divine power, then this deity by implication has the right to revoke those rights -- that it would be OK for an angry deity to slaughter large numbers of people as the Old Testament describes the Biblical god doing. I don't think wanton slaughter of humans is acceptable no matter who the killer is.

The question of nationalism seems to be the problem you see in the use of "
we" and "us" as you cite a real fear of national governments and the pain they
have caused. My gut response is to defend nationalism because for years one
worlders and socialist's have been trying to give it a bad name.

  I understand this emotion. I've sometimes taken a position based on some ideological opponents taking an opposite position, only to find on further reflection that the "enemy of my enemy" wasn't necessarily a good bedfellow.

Unfortunately,
the very word, “nationalism,” evokes negative connotations — associated, as it
can be, with flag-waving, goose-stepping rallies at Nuremberg. However, the
wholly American concept of nationalism — or “Americanism,” to employ a more
appropriate term — is a unifying rather than a divisive force. “Americanism”
gently reminds us that, despite differences in race, religious background, and
ethnic origin, we are all one and the same under the law. We are bound by the
motto “E pluribus unum” (“From the many, one”).

  "Americanism," as you call it, can only be a unifying force *within* the group identified as "Americans." Afrocentrism is similarly unifying to blacks, feminism to women, and so on. On a humanity-wide scale, Americanism (and other nationalisms) are clearly divisive. For every favored and idealogically upgraded "American," there is an excluded and downgraded "foreigner" or "alien."
Nationalism also substitutes the law (of government) for our shared humanity as the force uniting us.

George Orwell wrote a great essay on nationalism back in the 40's. In it, he
warned of that nationalism should not be confused with patriotism. He argued
that nationalism goes hand in hand with the desire for power and prestige where
patriotism is a devotion to a particular place or way of life with no desire
to force it upon others. So maybe, American-Patriatism would be a better thing
for me to argue? American-Patriatism should be comfortable with creative
chaos, understanding that freedom and liberty sometimes are messy. Regardless,
"we" are Americans and should cradle and hold dear the things we believe are
right with this great land and work to change the things we think are wrong. Like
some in this group, hating "our" government, seeing black helicopters
everywhere and finding nothing but fault is not conducive to change or recruitment, it
only attracts the loonies.

  I agree that there is a valuable distinction to be made between "nationalism" and "patriotism," and I'm willing to accept the definition of "patriotism" in an American context as "appreciation of the good (i.e. libertarian) values associated with the United States."

  However I would submit to you that we would still be wise not to take refuge in patriotism. Most (all?) of the things you refer to that "we believe are right with this great land" are qualities whose common denominator is not America, but a libertarian spirit. Qualities like a love of freedom, entrepreneurship, optimism, faith in scientific knowledge and human progress, self-reliance, etc. These values are found distributed throughout the world. It is inarguable that many people who happen to live outside the United States possess these qualities in greater abundance than many people who happen to live within the United States.

  Our goal ought to be rallying people around these values, not rallying people around the flag of a particular country which is also associated with many negative values. By using universal terms such as "libertarian" to define these qualities, rather than nationalist and thus exclusionary terms like "American," we can better spread the philosophy of freedom around the world to as many people as possible.

Yours in liberty,
              <<< Starchild >>>

Starchild wrote:

I believe rights are God given and government is there to protect them, not
create or deal them out. I think we agree here.

Yes, although I would say innate rather than "God given." If one holds that rights are granted to humans by some divine power, then this deity by implication has the right to revoke those rights -- that it would be OK for an angry deity to slaughter large numbers of people as the Old Testament describes the Biblical god doing. I don't think wanton slaughter of humans is acceptable no matter who the killer is.

Because of the usage of the term God in this way, I have a brain filter/rewriter which now equates God with nature, the totality of reality, or the universe, so that the statement "god given rights" essentially means "innate rights".

I agree with Starchild, it is more correct (at least more PC) to say natural or innate.

The coinage motto was missing a letter. It should have been "In Gold We Trust."

-Mike