Question about LP convention

Dear Terry;

A historical correction for a couple of the points you made on the Pledge. You stated:

Most Libertarians know that the Pledge of Allegiance was only adopted in the 1950s to distinguish the U.S. from the "godless communists"

The Pledge was used much earlier and in the 1930's had students holding out there upraised arms at an angle with palms up which so closely resembled the Nazi salute that it was changed to hand over heart. The "under god" part was added by Congress in 1954 after Knights of Columbus campaigned for the addition.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

The Pledge of Allegiance
A Short History
by Dr. John W. Baer
Copyright 1992 by Dr. John W. Baer

Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).
Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.
The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.
In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'
His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]
Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'
In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.
In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.
Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.
What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:
It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...
The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?
Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...
If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.
Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'
A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'

Ron:

Let's not forget that the language used by the founding fathers is
filled with references to God, the Creator, "Nature's God", etc.

The K of C weren't lobbying for anything that didn't have a long
history in this Judeo-Christian nation.

-Derek

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...>
wrote:

Dear Terry;

A historical correction for a couple of the points you made on the

Pledge. You stated:

Most Libertarians know that the Pledge of Allegiance was only

adopted in the 1950s to distinguish the U.S. from the "godless
communists"

The Pledge was used much earlier and in the 1930's had students

holding out there upraised arms at an angle with palms up which so
closely resembled the Nazi salute that it was changed to hand over
heart. The "under god" part was added by Congress in 1954 after
Knights of Columbus campaigned for the addition.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

The Pledge of Allegiance
A Short History
by Dr. John W. Baer
Copyright 1992 by Dr. John W. Baer

Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the

original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his
Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward
Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking
Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in

his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class
could create a planned economy with political, social and economic
equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy
similar to our present military industrial complex.

The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's

Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its
day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as
his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist
church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his
congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded
the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in
downtown Boston.

In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state

superintendents of education in the National Education Association.
As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools'
quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured
this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag
salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my

Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing
the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state
superintendents of education on his committee were against equality
for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]

Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of

the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these
ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three
great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality,
liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often
conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under

the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the
American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the
Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change,
but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus,

added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both
a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this

second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891
because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he
stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he
found there.

What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that

went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his
Pledge:

It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our

national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with
the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War;
with the aspiration of the people...

The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for

which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic
mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One
Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One
Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster
and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?

Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French

Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his
friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too
fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a
nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for
all...

If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be

modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.

Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised

Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of
America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under
God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'

A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's

original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic
for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty
and justice for all.'

From: eric dupree <dupreeconsults@...>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:00:06 AM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Question about LP convention

Cheers on the Gadsden flags!

From: "Terry Floyd"
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Question about LP convention
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 00:20:28 -0700

As one of the convention contractors (with Mike Denny), I suppose I

can answer these questions.

1. No
2. No
3. No

While we sometimes see Old Glory and the California State Flag on

display at the hotels that sponsor our conventions, they are not
officially required to be displayed and I've never seen any group
(ROTC or otherwise) "present" the flags in an official capacity.

I have never observed the Pledge of Allegiance recited at any LP

convention I've ever attended. Most Libertarians know that the
Pledge of Allegiance was only adopted in the 1950s to distinguish the
U.S. from the "godless communists" and was originally used as a
marketing tool to sell flags to public schools as a publicity
campaign by the Christian Socialist publishers of the Youth's
Companion Magazine. See http://history. vineyard. net/pledge. htm
for the whole shocking story, if you haven't already read about it.

At the first LPC convention I attended in 1993, a debate was held

on the issue of keeping or abolishing the Libertarian
Party's "Pledge" or "Non-Initiation of Force agreement" as the matter
was expected to be voted on at the national convention the following
summer. The movement to aboloish the pledge failed to obtain the
necessary 2/3 majority, so we still have the Pledge in our rules. At
that same convention, our former LPC Chair John Vernon read the
Libertarian Party's Statement of Principles to open the official
business meeting, for which he received a standing ovation. John's
booming voice and eloquent diction of the basic principles of our
Party made me extremely proud to be among those delegates. I miss
him very, very much, and I will always treasure that memory.

As we respect the separation of church and state, I have never,

ever seen or heard anyone pray as a part of our "official" business,
and no prayer has ever been included in the official business of any
LP convention I've ever attended. I'm sure many people pray for
us "unofficially" all the time.

As for next month's LPC Convention in San Ramon, we do have a red,

white and blue motif in our official logo, but we do not plan to fly
the flag in any official capacity. The San Ramon Valley Conference
Center does have flagpoles, and may routinely fly the Stars and
Stripes as well as the California flag, but that is their decision,
not ours. We could also fly a Libertarian flag if we wish. I may
see if we can obtain a Gadsden Flag ("Don't Tread on Me") as a
publicity stunt to fly alongside the traditional flags, if it would
get us more media attention!

Terry Floyd

From: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:lpsf- discuss@yahoogro

ups.com] On Behalf Of eric dupree

Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 6:32 PM
To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Question about LP convention

I'd like to know also.

Here's a LP Pledge:

I pledge allegiance to freedom in the United States of America.
In the people's republic, for which we stand, one nation under

human! SMILE

> From: "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@gmail. com>
> To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Question about LP convention
> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:21:21 -0000
>
>
> I have never been to an LP state or national convention. From

those of

> you that have, I'm interested in knowing which of the following

you

> have ever seen done there:
>
> 1. Presentation of colors, (the US flag), such as by some local

ROTC

It is true the Founders were Deists but they had also seen the many
problems relating to the mixing national politics with religion...and
while the founders were Deists, they were not necessarily Catholic or
even Christian. But they rightfully appreciated there were many higher
influences that superseded the importance of politics and national
government that should be encouraged by keeping government firmly out of
the way.

Mike

I've always found that phrase "Nature's God" interesting. It seems to suggest that humanity is separate from nature and its god, or that there are other gods, perhaps that Civilization might have its own god(s).

  But regarding the phrase "Judeo-Christian nation," nations are abstractions that cannot have religious beliefs. To speak of a nation, a collective, as having religion is to elevate national collectivism and undermine individual sovereignty and liberty.

Love & liberty,
        <<< starchild >>>

[ Attachment content not displayed ]

I agree with Mike that our Founding Parents specifically and
intentionally kept religion out of politics; and I hope it stays that
way. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do not recall that they
often (or at all) used the word "God" in any official
documents. "Providence" and other such words, yes. If they did, I
would be surprised.

Marcy

It is true the Founders were Deists but they had also seen the many
problems relating to the mixing national politics with

religion...and

while the founders were Deists, they were not necessarily Catholic

or

even Christian. But they rightfully appreciated there were many

higher

influences that superseded the importance of politics and national
government that should be encouraged by keeping government firmly

out of

the way.

Mike

________________________________

From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-

discuss@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of Starchild
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 11:57 PM
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Beliefs are held by individuals, not

nations

I've always found that phrase "Nature's God" interesting. It seems

to

suggest that humanity is separate from nature and its god, or that

there

are other gods, perhaps that Civilization might have its own god

(s).

But regarding the phrase "Judeo-Christian nation," nations are
abstractions that cannot have religious beliefs. To speak of a

nation, a

collective, as having religion is to elevate national collectivism

and

undermine individual sovereignty and liberty.

Love & liberty,

<<< starchild >>>

  Ron:

  Let's not forget that the language used by the founding

fathers

is

  filled with references to God, the Creator, "Nature's God",

etc.

  The K of C weren't lobbying for anything that didn't have a

long

  history in this Judeo-Christian nation.

  -Derek

  --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty
<tradergroupe@>

  wrote:

  >

  > Dear Terry;

  >

  > A historical correction for a couple of the points you made

on

the

  Pledge. You stated:

  >

  > Most Libertarians know that the Pledge of Allegiance was

only

  adopted in the 1950s to distinguish the U.S. from

the "godless

  communists"

  >

  > The Pledge was used much earlier and in the 1930's had
students

  holding out there upraised arms at an angle with palms up

which

so

  closely resembled the Nazi salute that it was changed to hand
over

  heart. The "under god" part was added by Congress in 1954

after

  Knights of Columbus campaigned for the addition.

  >

  > Ron Getty

  > SF Libertarian

  >

  > The Pledge of Allegiance

  > A Short History

  > by Dr. John W. Baer

  > Copyright 1992 by Dr. John W. Baer

  >

  >

  > Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote

the

  original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist.

In

his

  Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin,

Edward

  Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels,
Looking

  Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

  > Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward

Bellamy

in

  his novels and articles described in detail how the middle

class

  could create a planned economy with political, social and
economic

  equality for all. The government would run a peace time

economy

  similar to our present military industrial complex.

  > The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The
Youth's

  Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest
of its

  day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in
1891 as

  his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his
baptist

  church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member
of his

  congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later
founded

  the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located

in

  downtown Boston.

  > In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee

of

state

  superintendents of education in the National Education
Association.

  As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public

schools'

  quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He
structured

  this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and

a

flag

  salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'

  > His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to
my

  Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation,

  indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered
placing

  the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state

  superintendents of education on his committee were against
equality

  for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October,
1892. ]

  > Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living
founder of

  the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed
these

  ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the

three

  great ideas of the American political tradition

are 'equality,

  liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the
often

  conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'

  > In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under

  the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of

the

  American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to
'the

  Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this
change,

  but his protest was ignored.

  > In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of

Columbus,

  added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was

now

both

  a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

  > Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented

this

  second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church

in

1891

  because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in

Florida,

he

  stopped attending church because he disliked the racial

bigotry

he

  found there.

  > What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the

thoughts

that

  went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words

of

his

  Pledge:

  > It began as an intensive communing with salient points of

our

  national history, from the Declaration of Independence

onwards;

with

  the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the

Civil

War;

  with the aspiration of the people...

  > The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic
for

  which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the

Republic

  mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the

One

  Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that

One

  Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as
Webster

  and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its
future?

  > Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the
French

  Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his

  friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be

too

  fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But

we

as a

  nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice
for

  all...

  > If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will

be

  modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.

  > Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly

revised

  Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States

of

  America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation
under

  God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and
unborn.'

  > A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of

Bellamy's

  original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the
Republic

  for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality,
liberty

  and justice for all.'

  >

  >

  > From: eric dupree <dupreeconsults@>

  > To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com

  > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:00:06 AM

  > Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Question about LP convention

  >

  >

  > Cheers on the Gadsden flags!

  >

  >

  > From: "Terry Floyd"

  > To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com

  > Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Question about LP convention

  > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 00:20:28 -0700

  >

  >

  > As one of the convention contractors (with Mike Denny), I
suppose I

  can answer these questions.

  >

  > 1. No

  > 2. No

  > 3. No

  >

  > While we sometimes see Old Glory and the California State

Flag

on

  display at the hotels that sponsor our conventions, they are

not

  officially required to be displayed and I've never seen any
group

  (ROTC or otherwise) "present" the flags in an official

capacity.

  >

  > I have never observed the Pledge of Allegiance recited at

any

LP

  convention I've ever attended. Most Libertarians know that

the

  Pledge of Allegiance was only adopted in the 1950s to
distinguish the

  U.S. from the "godless communists" and was originally used as

a

  marketing tool to sell flags to public schools as a publicity

  campaign by the Christian Socialist publishers of the Youth's

  Companion Magazine. See http://history. vineyard. net/pledge.
htm

  for the whole shocking story, if you haven't already read

about

it.

  >

  > At the first LPC convention I attended in 1993, a debate was
held

  on the issue of keeping or abolishing the Libertarian

  Party's "Pledge" or "Non-Initiation of Force agreement" as the
matter

  was expected to be voted on at the national convention the
following

  summer. The movement to aboloish the pledge failed to obtain

the

  necessary 2/3 majority, so we still have the Pledge in our
rules. At

  that same convention, our former LPC Chair John Vernon read

the

  Libertarian Party's Statement of Principles to open the

official

  business meeting, for which he received a standing ovation.
John's

  booming voice and eloquent diction of the basic principles of
our

  Party made me extremely proud to be among those delegates. I
miss

  him very, very much, and I will always treasure that memory.

  >

  > As we respect the separation of church and state, I have
never,

  ever seen or heard anyone pray as a part of our "official"
business,

  and no prayer has ever been included in the official business

of

any

  LP convention I've ever attended. I'm sure many people pray

for

  us "unofficially" all the time.

  >

  > As for next month's LPC Convention in San Ramon, we do have

a

red,

  white and blue motif in our official logo, but we do not plan

to

fly

  the flag in any official capacity. The San Ramon Valley
Conference

  Center does have flagpoles, and may routinely fly the Stars

and

  Stripes as well as the California flag, but that is their
decision,

  not ours. We could also fly a Libertarian flag if we wish. I

may

  see if we can obtain a Gadsden Flag ("Don't Tread on Me") as

a

  publicity stunt to fly alongside the traditional flags, if it
would

  get us more media attention!

  >

  > Terry Floyd

  >

  >

  >

  >

  >

  > From: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:lpsf-
discuss@yahoogro

  ups.com] On Behalf Of eric dupree

  > Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 6:32 PM

  > To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com

  > Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Question about LP convention

  >

  >

  > I'd like to know also.

  >

  > Here's a LP Pledge:

  >

  > I pledge allegiance to freedom in the United States of
America.

  > In the people's republic, for which we stand, one nation

under

I think it's a real hoot when I hear folks who deny the separation of
church and state talk about America's "Judeo-Christian" history. It's
proof positive that even conservatives can learn political
correctness. :stuck_out_tongue:

The fact is that these same people only talked about America's
"Christian" history until about half a century ago. Half a century
from now, if this segment of society still exists that wants to blur
religion and government, I have no doubt that they'll have again
changed the term to "Islamo-Judeo-Christian." After all, if their
only justification for this interpretation of history is that the
Founders used words like "endowed by their Creator," then they'll
slowly have to include all monotheistic religions in their
terminology, just as they added Judaism after World War II. If
anything, the Founders' beliefs were much closer to modern Islam than
to modern Christianity or Judaism (e.g., women are perpetual minors,
with guardianship passed directly from their fathers to their husbands).

It's also funny that some people think we should base modern
government on religious doctrine just because some of the Founders did
so more than two centuries ago. (Also note that the Founders' currency
had no mention of religion on it -- that didn't start until a hundred
years later, at the end of the Civil War --
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml
) Would we base modern medicine or science on what the Founders (or
even Lincoln-era politicians) believed in those areas? If modern
money must have "In God We Trust" stamped on each piece of currency
for the sake of tradition, shouldn't every medical procedure start
with bloodletting for the very same reason?

I respect religious people and their beliefs, but I see no reason for
those beliefs to have any bearing whatsoever on modern secular
institutions like science, medicine, and, yes, government. No
religious statements should be included on modern currency, on modern
government buildings or monuments, in modern government laws or acts
(when Kai worked for San Joaquin County, he often attended ribbon
cutting ceremonies for new bridges and stuff, and there was always a
monotheistic prayer at the start), or anywhere else taxpayer dollars
are being spent. If a private church wants to build a 100-foot
steeple with neon lights and a giant 20-foot pump-driven bleeding
statue of the Crucifixion, then let them. As long as I'm not paying
for it, public displays of religious devotion don't bother me one bit.

But I am paying for it when a government schoolteacher takes time out
of the curriculum to have the students recite a pledge "under God",
and I'm also paying for it when religious statements are placed on
government money, buildings, and monuments. So that sort of thing
must stop, regardless of tradition and what the Founders (or
Lincoln-era politicians) did centuries ago.

Rob

Me too...

Mike

If you say that, it's not mixing politics and religion. If Congress
says that, it is.

Christian Fundamentalists started using that term to curry favor with the powerful Jewish community in the USA. As a Jew, I just don't understand the thinking of Jews who think they can unite with fundies to create some "Judeo-Christian society." Once the fundies are successful using the Jews to eliminate their common enemies, I assure you the "Judeo-" prefix will be dropped faster than you can say "Toward Tradition."

Jeremy

"The Government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion."
- John Adams, 2nd President of the United States

"The United States is a Christian nation founded upon Christian principles and beliefs."
- President George W. Bush, 43rd President of the United States

- Steve

Steve:

Of course the Government isn't, but it is written in the people's
hearts. At least outside of the Bay Area.

You mean those flyover states? :stuck_out_tongue:

Jeremy (a native Midwesterner who is pretty glad to have left Detroit)

Derek,

  Saying "we" are a nation is nationalist; I think you know how I feel about nationalism. Saying a nation is "under God" discriminates against those considered a part of that jurisdiction who (a) do not believe in a god, (b) believe in more than one god, and/or (c) do not see god as something that is over and above humans.

  Is it your intention to make second-class citizens out of people with those beliefs? How is expressing belief in a god and attributing an attribute to that god (higher jurisdiction over a nation) *not* a religious statement?

Love & liberty,
        <<< starchild >>>

Mike:

Yes. And saying we are a nation "under God" and leaving it at that is not mixing politics and religion, IMO.

It is true the Founders were Deists but they had also seen the many problems relating to the mixing national politics with religion…and while the founders were Deists, they were not necessarily Catholic or even Christian. But they rightfully appreciated there were many higher influences that superseded the importance of politics and national government that should be encouraged by keeping government firmly out of the way.

Mike

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