Devoted2022
October 13
Hey fellow libertarians,
How are you guys feeling about the face masks and mandatory vaccines for the kids, and for everyone for that matter? I’m a bit freaked that no one is saying much. It goes against every libertarian fiber in my body. Should we be doing something to protest it or something? Forgive me, as you know I’m real new here, but I’d love to hear your thoughts.
Kevin
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In Reply To
FRNP
October 13
“Everybody is a Nudist (some are just ‘in the closet’).” First, #bodymasks, now #smilemasks, will they stop before suffocating all of our respiratory organs? They’ve already blinded so many with their juvenile propaganda.
Previous Replies
FRNP
October 13
“Everybody is a Nudist (some are just ‘in the closet’).”
First, #bodymasks, now #smilemasks, will they stop before suffocating all of our respiratory organs? They’ve already blinded so many with their juvenile propaganda.
ortegan
November 25, 2012
I agree that “the line has to be drawn somewhere” but I disagree about where that line should be drawn. In my perfect world the line would be drawn in favor of anyone who is not initiating aggression and against anyone who is. Therefore, nudity in public places, even self-mutilization in public places, is permitted. If anybody uses aggression to try to stop a person who is doing those things, then aggression is permitted to stop the person who initiated aggression.
Smoking is a form of aggression, IMHO. If a person smokes within the airspace of another person who does not wish to inhale the fumes, it is a physical assault on the lungs of the non-smoker.
In my perfect world there no such thing as a “right” that can trump another person’s freedom.
If you belive that such “trump rights” exist, then where does that slippery slope end? Once you decide in favor of the woman who doesn’t want to expose her children to public nudity, as if she has some kind of “right” to such “freedom” (note the clever choice of words) then what other “trump rights” will you allow society to create?
What then about the poor fellow who feels he has a “right” to have his sexual urges fulfilled by a particular woman? Does his “right” to satisfaction trump her right to control her own body? How are the two cases different? It is only a matter of degree. Both are on the same slippery slope.
Now moving away to the philosophical to the actual case of nudity in the Bay Area . . . I have not been following this thread closely but has anyone already pointed out that in certain cultures nudity is absolutely normal? That there is absolutely nothing wrong or profane with our God-given human bodies?
I admit that I am so indoctrinated by the culture in which I was raised that I did not disrobe when I disembarked from a cruise ship and ended up at a nude beach at the end of a short cab ride. My friends who had been there before insisted that they knew the “best” beach.
What fascinated me most about that experience was how resilient human beings are. At first (that being my first and only experience with public nudity) I was in a mild panic about what to do, where to look, how to behave. (I am sure my friends thought that was utterly amusing.) I took off for an area that looked relatively “safe” and occupied my time by having my hair braided into a zillion cornrows by a local entreprenuer. (The effect was fabulous and I was the envy of all the ladies on the ship.)
From that safe vantage point I looked around and calmed down. By the time a couple of hours had passed I was completely inured to the nudity. A couple hours more and I probably would have taken my bathing suit off myself so as to avoid those dreaded “tan lines” but by then it was time to hail a cab and make our way back to the ship.
Really, it is just a cultural thing. There is nothing inherently wrong with nudity. I firmly believe that one of man’s natural rights is the right to dress (or not) as one pleases. And there are no “rights” that trump natural rights.
Nina
Starchild
November 25, 2012
Dave,
I think people mutilating themselves in public is definitely something most other people (including myself) would find distasteful, but like other things about which this is true (farting, spitting, nose-picking, etc.) I don’t think it should be criminalized. Fortunately public self-mutilation does not seem to be a major issue.
I agree there are many things we shouldn’t do, however many of those things should nevertheless be legal, because one of the things we definitely shouldn’t do is support government violating the rights of some people in order to spare others from being offended.
Parents’ right to raise their children according to their religious or aesthetic standards of what’s offensive or appropriate does not extend to infringing the rights of others. They can require their dependent children to wear clothes in public, or to restrict where their kids can go in public, but they have no right to require other people to wear clothes in order to make enforcing their chosen parental controls easier.
I’m also afraid that with regard to smoking in public, you may be somewhat behind the times in presuming no one gets upset by this. Did you know that people smoking outdoors in public parks in San Francisco has been criminalized?
Anyway, it is as you say an interesting discussion. Thanks for weighing in.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
lpsfactivists
November 23, 2012
Hi Les and All,
I would like to continue LPSF’s rule of never taking a public position on current topic (such as the nudity ban for example) unless a formal vote is taken at the monthly meeting or there is general consensus among those discussing on our lists. Starchild brought up the topic at a meeting, I spoke against opposing the nudity ban, and we did not vote to oppose it. Consensus is certainly not clear on on this topic in our current discussion
I have thoroughly enjoyed our discussion of this topic on this list! and hope we will always feel free to discuss all kinds of stuff in the great spirit of camaraderie that has always characterized our lists.
So Les, I hope there is no resigning around here!
Marcy
dredelstein
November 23, 2012
Hey Les,
We agree nudists have a right to be nude on their own property and no right to be nude on someone else’s property, unless invited by the owner of that property to do so.
We disagree when regarding Govt property.
Who has or does not have rights on Govt property is a murky issue and on which libertarians have always had differing views. I hope you decide against resigning because of this difference within the LPSF. IMO, it’s a minor issue compared to our significant and broad areas of agreement.
Warm regards, Michael
to proposed nudity ban in SF / protest at City Hall (Noon, Weds. 11/14)
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