Origins of modern Turkey [Re: "Why Be Libertarian?" (Murray Rothbard)]

Jeremy - Can you expand on how it is societies and cultures can be 'oppressive' and yet still be considered in violation of NAP? I don't see how this relates to the rights of the individual. I should think that social norms, peer pressures and the like to be akin to situations where one person is offended by another, for what ever reason.
So are you suggesting it is criminal for all others to frown on you for say - 'wearing black socks with shorts'? Hopefully you are not putting that offense in the same boat as a person killed for wearing gang colors? And in that regard, would Ataturk be justified in either - throwing all gang members in jail, not just the murderer...or even throwing all of society in jail to educate protect future victims?
I'm also unconvinced that nationalism is a lesser evil than tribalism, history aside. But more importantly - I think it is somewhat odd that on the one hand, libertarians are on this mission to dismantle the "modern" state, yet you seem to advocate others build it up by hook or by crook to save themselves from social pressures?
hindsight with Turkey is 20/20 of course..
David

Jeremy - Can you expand on how it is societies and cultures can be 'oppressive' and yet still be considered in violation of NAP? I don't see how this relates to the rights of the individual. I should think that social norms, peer pressures and the like to be akin to situations where one person is offended by another, for what ever reason.

I wasn't saying anyone was in violation of the NAP...as I've said numerous times, I think the NAP is junk philosophy and libertarians shouldn't be relying on it to structure our vision of the proper role of government.

So are you suggesting it is criminal for all others to frown on you for say - 'wearing black socks with shorts'? Hopefully you are not putting that offense in the same boat as a person killed for wearing gang colors? And in that regard, would Ataturk be justified in either - throwing all gang members in jail, not just the murderer...or even throwing all of society in jail to educate protect future victims?

I don't think it is criminal to have social norms, even bad ones, but at some point a culture becomes so oppressive that it inevitably takes over the government and imposes its norms by force. Sometimes preventative measures have to be taken to stop such a culture from doing so BEFORE it gets too late and the damage is done. This critical point is likely earlier in societies where there is less respect for individualism and the rule of law than in Western societies where such traditions have a much longer history.

I'm also unconvinced that nationalism is a lesser evil than tribalism, history aside. But more importantly - I think it is somewhat odd that on the one hand, libertarians are on this mission to dismantle the "modern" state, yet you seem to advocate others build it up by hook or by crook to save themselves from social pressures?

Very few societies have been able to modernize in a tribal system. In fact, I can't name one. There is something about modernism that works better in a nation-state than in a tribal culture, I don't know what that is. If all tribal cultures are primitive, might this say something about tribalism in itself? I don't think all libertarians necessarily favor dismantling the entire modern state, only those parts of it which violate people's rights. Even if we claim that libertarians wish to roll back the clock for the federal government of the USA by about 200 years, that is still quite modern as the history of government goes, especially when you consider that the USA was somewhat ahead of its time.

Jeremy