Objection to Objectivism

I just got back from Walter Block's talk. Listening to him speak helped me
to solidify something that has been bugging me for months. It is my
objection to Objectivism.

We are governed by one and only one set of laws. The laws of physics (and
some could argue the abstract laws as well such as math, and even things
like natural selection and chaos theory). These laws cannot be broken, and
are perfectly enforced!

What a lot of libertarians happen to forget is that whenever we talk about
the the rights of men, we are actually in a negotation with each other! Most
every libertarian I have spoken to seems self-righteous and seems to believe
in absolute principle as a truth that we are uncovering, but we haven't quite
uncovered it... but that with effort we will. I wholeheartedly disagree. We
are not exposing universal unbreakable truth! We are stating what makes the
most sense, from our extremely reasonable and well thought out perspectives,
and we want others to hear us, because we think they will agree.

Physicists are uncovering absolute truth (we think, but there are differing
thoughts on that too). What we as libertarians are doing is something quite
else. We are CREATING a notion of rights that appear to us to be very
reasonable for human consumption, causing peace, happiness, and prosperity for
all at the expense of no one. Laws that I find very wise, simple, easy to
work with, and quite utilitarian, and I would enter into gentleman's
agreements to uphold and enforce them.

But please recognize that rights are in fact just gentleman's agreements, as
evidenced by the fact that they can and do get tresspassed upon! They
are not bestowed upon us from on high. Some people believe Earth has rights
and people don't. I hear that Mars believes this quite strongly. Some believe
that humanity is a single organism, and that doing the best thing for humanity
is the thing that is compulsatory for everyone as individuals to do. Whatever.
None of these beliefs are right or wrong. Some may be very ineffective at
getting the most out of life for one or more people, but they are not right or
wrong. There is no such thing as absolute or objective right and wrong. And
the sooner we get that through our heads, the better. Our beliefs are only
representative of a conscious decision to see things from a particular static
viewpoint. A viewpoint that we have consciously chosen. And in making the
conscious choice to see things from one static viewpoint (principle of non-
agression and property rights), we squarely take on the consequences of that,
which I believe are things like having a small ineffectual party.

When you fixate on the belief that your decision about abortion is absolutely
right, arguable to any reasonable man, fully defendable, and objective, you
are completely deluding no one but yourself. If there even IS an objective
reality (and I'm not saying that there isn't), no one can possibly know it,
because each of us can only see our subjective viewpoint. Objectivism is
terribly ineffectual. No one can know the truth, so the philosophy has no
net impact on reality.

What you are doing when you believe in objectivism is alienating those with
other belief systems, those people who have chosen to hold different values,
or to hold their values in a different order (e.g. utilitarianism above
property rights, etc).

That's a very bad negotiation technique. It's clear to me now why there are
so few libertarians.

Most people understand this fact. Most people understand clearly that they
are not God, that they cannot choose values for other people, that there IS
NO PERFECT OBJECTIVE ORDERING OF VALUES. To say that property rights are more
perfect and important than utilitarianism is truly just a whimsical selection
of values. And to enforce your viewpoint of law upon another, in self-
righteousness, is JUST AS EVIL AND CORRUPT as what current lawmakers do in
enforcing their beliefs and laws upon us at gunpoint. Let me say that again,
because that is what this is all about. Believing that the libertarian system
of rights is "right" and enforcing it against people who don't believe the
same way is JUST AS EVIL AND CORRUPT as what current lawmakers and enforcement
branches of government are doing to us right now. (To be even more correct,
I don't believe in the concept of evilness or corruptness. They are illusions
in our minds, not reality.).

We argue from simple sterile situations, and sweep under the carpet stuff that
isn't so easy. Things like determining what the actual facts were. I submit
that NO ONE LIVING REALLY KNOWS whether or not slavery actually occured. We
rely on our beliefs about what we are told. And there will ALWAYS be people
with conspiracy theories about everything. Who is right? No one knows!
Appeal to authority is just as irrelevant as appeal to law or as appeal to
popular vote. It's all just opinion.

So please, let's stick to the matter at hand. Negotiation for our liberty.
We must stop being self-righteous. We must respect other people's belief
systems, even when we have different ones.

We believe that our principles offer a system that is best for everybody
involved, not just for ourselves. However, if we are unconvincing, then we
must move on towards negotiation.

Because in the real world, there is no absolutism. What has the objective
absolutism of Ayn Rand gotten us? Nothing. I think Ayn Rand was misguided.

-Mike Dilger

PS: Having said all of this, I still would like to live in an anarcho-
capitalist society. I value the rights of others as much as I value the
rights of myself, BECAUSE AND ONLY BECAUSE that is the most peacable and
prosperous way to live.

PPS: Due to this critical difference in philosophy, or at least in behavior
of fellow party members, I may soon drop my association with (Capital-L)
Libertarianism.

PPS: Due to this critical difference in philosophy, or at least in

behavior

of fellow party members, I may soon drop my association with (Capital-L)
Libertarianism.

What difference? As far as I know, being a Libertarian doesn't imply that you're an Objectivist or require you take a dogmatic stance in general.

From what I've read and heard so far, the fundemental principle of Libertarian philosophy is the non-initiation of force principle. And since initiation of force is open to interpretation, it's a vague guide at best.

Btw, Walter Block believes it includes *threat* as well as initiation and believes that nukes should be banned for individuals on the grounds that:
1) their existence in itself constitutes a threat
2) their is no practical defensive use for them as they can't target individual aggressors

-- Steve

Steve Dekorte wrote:

Thanks for everyone's replies. I really just wanted to get this off my chest, and maybe hopefully help keep us all real. I'm not leaving the party. I'm glad that all of you are not Randists. Whew. (*wipes sweat off of brow*).

Atlas Shrugged was indeed a good book in many ways.

I am suprised that most libertarians were converted by other libertarians, or by that book. I guess I am the exception. When I was 7 or 8, me and my two brothers (of similar age) shared a bedroom, and divided up our "property" with lincoln logs. And we made an easement at the base of the beds so we could get out. Later, with seperate rooms, we charged 10 cent fines for trespass. In wanting independance, we each made our own "countries", which were self-proclaimed homesteaded parts of our parents ranch, and we put up fences and were our own dictators. Of course, the game didn't last - there was no practical benefit. I remember going through definate cases where one of us was land locked by the other, or some other extreme stretching of the principles. Libertarianism was in our blood when we were born. Whenever we heard or saw how the state was acting, we just knew it was wrong. We would talk for hours (when we were older, about 12) about what we called the self-supporting estate, which was essentially Galt's Gulch. And as far as I know, the idea was instinctual. No one told us. Our parents were not libertarian (Mom didn't vote or seem to care, and dad was republican).

As for the "laws" of physics -- I was speaking of the real ones, that we do not know, whatever they may be, not any theories about them.

I wanted to write more in this email. I can be a critic of Ayn and Walter, but I don't think that discussion is necessary.

-Mike

PS: I never quite asked, but is lpsf-discuss for philosophical discussion or party business? I get the impression that we have 2 camps on this.

Oops, I mean to say "I'm glad that NOT(all of you are Randists)." -Mike

Mike Dilger wrote:

I just got back from Walter Block's talk. Listening to him speak helped me
to solidify something that has been bugging me for months. It is my
objection to Objectivism.

I see we've already clarified that Objectivism is *not* the same as libertarianism, thank goodness. You'll note that "Logan Darrow" (Silly Vally Objectivists) is running for governor as a Republican.

We are governed by one and only one set of laws. The laws of physics (and
some could argue the abstract laws as well such as math, and even things
like natural selection and chaos theory). These laws cannot be broken, and
are perfectly enforced!

What a lot of libertarians happen to forget is that whenever we talk about
the the rights of men, we are actually in a negotation with each other!

True. However, I think there is something to be said for human nature and economic principles being facts as well. One thing I like about libertarianism is that it takes human nature into account, while socialism assumes that humanity will suddenly change, given the right sociopolitical structure.

Most
every libertarian I have spoken to seems self-righteous and seems to believe
in absolute principle as a truth that we are uncovering, but we haven't
quite
uncovered it... but that with effort we will.

This is definitely true of Objectivists (though they believe they *have* uncovered the truth). The name of their philosophy comes from the "fact" that there is an objective right and wrong. While I agree that I cannot be compelled to help those less fortunate, I take great offense at the idea that it is somehow *wrong* to help them.

However, libertarians also often appear self-righteous. I think that's because the non-initiation of force (and freedom in general) appears so obviously good that it's baffling that anyone could think otherwise. And moreover, those who disagree are apparently willing to initiate force on us to make the world run their way; I think it's understandable that we take umbrage. Too often, we react as though they are actually waving a gun at us, rather than considering the possibility that they just haven't thought things through.

Then, at 02:27 28/9/03, Mike Dilger wrote:

Yes, okay. I guess I'm just very uncomfortable at the association with
objectivism and dogmatism I am finding.

I believe that association is called "identity". (-: I recommend doing a Web search for the short play, "Mozart Was a Red".

~Chris