NYTimes.com Article: Op-Ed Contributor: Joining the Debate but Missing the Point

This article from NYTimes.com
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Dear Everone;

A very interesting take on the marriage debate from a very different viewpoint.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

tradergroupe@...

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Op-Ed Contributor: Joining the Debate but Missing the Point

February 29, 2004
By NATHANIEL FRANK

By declaring his support for a constitutional amendment to
ban gay marriage, President Bush has taken sides in an
energetic national debate. Unfortunately, thus far the
debate has often obscured more than it has illuminated.

Supporters and opponents of gay marriage are talking past
each other. Social conservatives argue from the premise
that marriage is important to society - the president
called it "the most fundamental institution of
civilization" - and must be protected. Letting gays wed
will undermine marriage, they say, but they are seldom able
to explain how.

Proponents of same-sex marriage, meanwhile, make a
rights-based argument, insisting that gays deserve the
freedom to marry - but they don't address the possible
impact of gay marriage on society. As a result, they are
open to the valid retort that if marriage is an individual
right (instead of a social good), why not polygamous,
incestuous or child marriages?

For a productive dialogue, we should be asking the question
this way: is giving gays the right to marry good for
society? And to answer that, we must ask what larger social
purpose marriage serves.

The main reason marriage is considered good for society is
that committed relationships help settle individuals into
stable homes and families. Marriage does this by
establishing collective rules of conduct that strengthen
obligations to a spouse and often to children.

This is why the word itself is so important. The power of
"marriage" lies in its symbolic authority to reinforce
monogamy and stability when temptation calls. The hope is
that, having taken vows before family and friends, people
will think twice before breaking them. It is this shared
meaning of marriage that is central to the success of so
many individual unions.

Yet it is precisely this shared definition that causes many
Americans to worry that legalizing gay marriages would
undermine straight ones. By sharing the institution with
couples whose union they don't trust or respect, they fear,
the sanctity of their own bonds could be compromised.

The argument is not so much that individual straight
couples are threatened by gay marriage, but that the
collective rules that define marriage are being undermined.
Instead of feeling part of a greater social project that
demands respect, people will feel that breaking their vows
offends only their spouse, not the whole community. Knowing
that their friends and neighbors no longer hold marriage
sacred can make it easier for people to wander.

Thus it is inadequate to argue that marriage is a basic
civil right because it cannot be extended to all unions -
to the brother who wants to marry his sister, to the man
who wants two wives, to the 10-year-old who wants to marry
her teacher. Marriage could indeed lose some of its current
meaning and power if society legalized unions between
relatives, groups or children.

What about gays? While marriage may not be a universal
civil right, it is a social institution that gays deserve
to join. The best argument for gay marriage is that it
serves the same social function as all other marriages.

It is silly to argue that broadening the definition of
marriage will have no impact on the institution; it will.
But no generalization about the nature and durability of
same-sex unions can justify banning them. After all,
society does not deny marriage rights to divorced,
infertile or impotent people - so long as they are
straight. We offer that right because society generally
tries to encourage as many people as possible to live
stable and productive lives. Marriage - gay or straight -
helps society achieve that goal.

After identifying the social function that marriage serves,
it is easy to allay the fears of those worried about a
slippery slope to an "anything goes" definition of
marriage. Marriages between brother and sister? Incestuous
marriages strike at the core of the bonds of trust and the
functions of care that a family requires. Polygamy? One
husband and numerous wives invites increased jealousy,
deception and subjugation, and mocks the importance of
"forsaking all others," essential components of the
stabilizing function of marriage.

The traditionalists may well be right that a monogamous
relationship between two unrelated, consenting adults makes
a strong foundation for a stable family, and thus for a
vigorous social order. They're just wrong that those two
people have to be of different genders.

Nathaniel Frank teaches history at New School University.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/29/opinion/29FRAN.html?ex=1079078833&ei=1&en=f6fb771983f0ef94

You mean from the viewpoint of a someone who sees homosexuality as evil (in other words, a bigot)?

Btw, does anyone know of an online archive of newspaper articles from the period when interracial marriages were being debated? It might make for some interesting comparisons.

-- Steve

Dear Steve;

Perhaps you missed this sentence in the article:

( What about gays? While marriage may not be a universal civil right, it is a social institution that gays deserve to join. The best argument for gay marriage is that it serves the same social function as all other marriages. )

I did not interpret this statement as someone who saw homosexuality as evil or as a bigot. If so, they would not have been as straightforward in their statement as they were.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

Steve Dekorte <steve@...> wrote:

Yes, the author is not, I should have said some of the views of the people he describes are. I assumed it was those views that you were endorsing by posting it.

-- Steve

Dear Steve;

You have left me befuddled as to how someone could convolute a posting on a positive article for allowing gay marriages to be construed as an endorsement of the anti-gay marriage types described in the article???

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

Steve Dekorte <steve@...> wrote:

I think I may have been confused by your description of it as a "different perspective". If we're all pro-gay marriage, how is it "different" from our perspective?

-- Steve

Dear Steve;

Based on the amount of negativity on gay marriages and the proposed Bush anti-gay amendment endorsement in the national media the New York Times op-ed piece was a different perspective - it was strongly positive. It was also a strong endorsement of gay marriages from outside the San Francisco area.

Not too many op-ed articles anywhere else than San Francisco print such articles which are positive on gay marriages. Have you seen any such positve op-ed articles in the LA Times - Chicago Tribune - Washington Times etc etc etc published?

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

Steve Dekorte <steve@...> wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/25/opinion/25WED1.html
"It would inject meanspiritedness and exclusion into the document embodying our highest principles and aspirations."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3604
"President Bush abandoned the Constitution to election-year politics."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/printedition/chi-0402250123feb25,1,1283074.story?coll=chi-printeditorial-hed
"Were such an amendment to be adopted, it would render moot a process of debate and decision-making that the American public, through their legislatures, must be permitted to have in the years ahead."

Ron, what is your position on gay marriage?

-- Steve

Dear Steve;

Any two people 18 years of age or older can get married. I do not believe there should be any distinction or discrimination or dissension because of sex.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

Steve Dekorte <steve@...> wrote:

Not too many op-ed articles anywhere else than San Francisco print
such articles which are positive on gay marriages. Have you seen any
such positve op-ed articles in the LA Times - Chicago Tribune -
Washington Times etc etc etc published?

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/25/opinion/25WED1.html
"It would inject meanspiritedness and exclusion into the document
embodying our highest principles and aspirations."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3604
"President Bush abandoned the Constitution to election-year politics."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/printedition/chi
-0402250123feb25,1,1283074.story?coll=chi-printeditorial-hed
"Were such an amendment to be adopted, it would render moot a process
of debate and decision-making that the American public, through their
legislatures, must be permitted to have in the years ahead."

Ron, what is your position on gay marriage?

-- Steve

If we're all pro-gay

marriage, how is it
"different" from our perspective?

Steve - I thought 'we' were all just 'pro-freedom'
here? Or are you just referring to those on this list
pushing a pro-gay marriage agenda? I guess I'm still
confused why libertarians would want to push a
pro-anything-else agenda. Or is this a strictly polar
issue of 'you're either with us or against us'?
d.

If we're all pro-gay marriage, how is it

"different" from our perspective?

Steve - I thought 'we' were all just 'pro-freedom'
here?

Yes? Is that somehow in conflict with being pro-gay marriage?

Or are you just referring to those on this list
pushing a pro-gay marriage agenda? I guess I'm still
confused why libertarians would want to push a
pro-anything-else agenda.

I don't understand, do you see equal rights as not being in line with the LP?

Or is this a strictly polar issue of 'you're either with us or against us'?

Is what a "strictly polar issue"?

-- Steve

Dear Steve;

A philosophical take on equality.

Equality can only apply in mathemathics. 2 + 2 = 4. You can not
legislate equality. Humans are too different from each other in
their native talents, opportunities and will to achieve.

The only true equality comes from treating everyone equally without
regard to who they are or what they are under the law.

The reality is legislators chose to create laws to create equality
or create inequality. Legislators being supposedly human this isn't
unexpected. Until this country and the people in it grow up there
will always be inequality. Until humans stop believing there are
other humans who are inferior to themselves because of whatever
reasons there will be inequality. Part of this is unfortunately
inherently genetic in the human psyche and is hardwired into the
brain circuits.

Ultimately at some fine point in the future there will be no need to
discuss equality or inequality. The word will not exist in the
modern lexicon. Because everyone will be treated equally under the
law.

How far in the future this will be I don't have such a crystal ball
to see that far ahead.

For more on this try Frederic Bastiat and some of his writings.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Steve Dekorte <steve@d...>
wrote:

> If we're all pro-gay marriage, how is it
>> "different" from our perspective?
>>
> Steve - I thought 'we' were all just 'pro-freedom'
> here?

Yes? Is that somehow in conflict with being pro-gay marriage?

> Or are you just referring to those on this list
> pushing a pro-gay marriage agenda? I guess I'm still
> confused why libertarians would want to push a
> pro-anything-else agenda.

I don't understand, do you see equal rights as not being in line

with

the LP?

> Or is this a strictly polar issue of 'you're either with us or

against

Ron,

  I think Nathaniel Frank clearly gets it wrong when he says we must ask, "Is giving gays the right to marry good for society?"

  Rights are inherent in individuals; they are not "given" by society, because they are not society's to give. A libertarian would ask, "Is it voluntary?" "Does it involve aggression against others?" Any justification for legal discrimination that might appeal to libertarians ought to evaporate pretty quickly in the face of such questions.

  Fortunately Frank reaches a pro-liberty conclusion with regards to gay marriage, but he makes some awfully tortured arguments against polygamous, incestuous, and age-differential marriages in order to get there.

Yours in liberty,
            <<< Starchild >>>

Dear Starchild;

Individuals have the right to make choices.

SOCIETY in its infinite wisdom has seen fit to define what rights an
individual has to choose from. SOCIETY does this by imposing those
choices through its laws. SOCIETY does not allow the choice of
rights it chooses to take away from individuals.

Witness various discrimination laws of all stripes and colors.
Witness all laws governing ethics, morality and social conduct.
These are rights an individual has to choose from in their daily
life. But SOCIETY says you can't make those choices it's against the
law to choose that right.

If I choose not to wear a seatbelt - if I choose to carry a
concealed weapon - if I choose to smoke pot - if I choose not to pay
taxes I am violating the laws of SOCIETY. SOCIETY demands you must
choose from its imposed rights of choices. You are allowed to select
your choice from all of them. Not some of them but all of them.

Yes it would be nice to have the Libertarian philosophy regarding
rights and choices but " CIVILIZED SOCIETY "(?) unfortunately
demands otherwise. And this shall remain so until we get the
legislators to stop creating laws defining what rights we have. Then
getting the legislators to rescind all the other rights laws.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Starchild <sfdreamer@e...>
wrote:

Ron,

  I think Nathaniel Frank clearly gets it wrong when he says

we must

ask, "Is giving gays the right to marry good for society?"

  Rights are inherent in individuals; they are not "given" by

society,

because they are not society's to give. A libertarian would

ask, "Is it

voluntary?" "Does it involve aggression against others?" Any
justification for legal discrimination that might appeal to
libertarians ought to evaporate pretty quickly in the face of

such

questions.

  Fortunately Frank reaches a pro-liberty conclusion with

regards to gay

marriage, but he makes some awfully tortured arguments against
polygamous, incestuous, and age-differential marriages in order to

get

there.

Yours in liberty,
            <<< Starchild >>>

> This article from NYTimes.com
> has been sent to you by tradergroupe@y...
>
>
> Dear Everone;
>
> A very interesting take on the marriage debate from a very

different

> viewpoint.
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
> tradergroupe@y...
>
>
> /-------------------- advertisement -----------------------\
>
> THE DREAMERS - NOW PLAYING
>
> Set against the turbulent political backdrop of 1968 France when

the

> voice of youth was reverberating around Europe, THE DREAMERS is

a story

> of self-discovery as three students test each other to see just

how far

> they will go. THE DREAMERS is released uncut with an NC-17

rating.