News Alert: Obama Is Said to Replace Plan for 'Car Czar' With a Panel

I guess we really will have cars designed by Committee.

I nominate Cliff Claven and Newman!

Isn't that the same thing a corporation does?

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Philip Berg <philzberg@...>
wrote:

I guess we really will have cars designed by Committee.

> Breaking News Alert
> The New York Times
> Sunday, February 15, 2009 -- 9:55 PM ET
> -----
>
> Obama Is Said to Replace Plan for 'Car Czar' With a Panel
>
> The Obama administration has dropped the idea of appointing a
> "car czar" to oversee the revamping of General Motors and
> Chrysler and will instead put the politically delicate task
> in the hands of a presidential panel, a senior administration
> official with knowledge of the plan said Sunday night.
>
> President Obama is designating the Treasury secretary,
> Timothy F. Geithner, and the chairman of the National
> Economic Council, Lawrence H. Summers, to oversee the group.
>
> Read More:
> http://www.nytimes.com/?emc=na
>
> -----
> Now get the New York Times Breaking News to your mobile phone.

Sign up

> for the alerts by texting NEWSALERTS to 698698 (NYTNYT).
> -----
>
> About This E-Mail
> You received this message because you are signed up to receive
> Breaking News
> Alerts from NYTimes.com.
>
> To unsubscribe, change your e-mail address or to sign up for

daily

a corporations board is typically stocked with cronies, insiders, family
members, politicians, or failed CEO's from other corporations. Now lest you
think I agree with you, rest assured that I find you point nonsensical.

I vote with my pocketbook when I find a board to be ineffective, I won't buy
the companies stock, or their products. Do I wish that there we could
change some aspects of board performance, accountability, executive
pay..............perhaps.

But once again.............Eric and Obama propose WHAT as the
solution.......why the magic bureaucrat.......!

What do you think the labor attorney Obama appointed to be on the panel
overseeing the automotive industry is going to do. Why give that man a
prize........the labor attorney is going to do everything in his power to
see that the auto companies cut cost at union members expense by
mechanizing..............he is bound to be an expert on what amerian auto
consumers demand.................and the innovation......oh the innovation
he is bound to briing to the table.............

Why......because he is the magic bureaucrat..............

and Obama..........who couldn't get a job running a burger king, because he
has really never run anything.............is going to fix GM, Chrysler etc.

I wonder if Obama or that labor attorney know any cost accounting, six
sigma, electrical engineering, supply chain organization, distribution,
could do a simple ROI........but oh.....he sure is articulate.............

and We thought the auto companies stocked their boards with a bunch of
clowns.........

At least the punchlines are going to be funny........albeit expensive

The most successful corporations in the not so distant past encouraged entrepeneurial talent. Leaders with proven track records rose within the ranks and moved portions of the company forward. In the automobile sector, the most famous adherant to that model was Lee Iacocca, who was the force behind the Mustang at Ford and the rebirth of Chrysler. Unfortunately, because of our ponzi financial system that has prevented filure for thirty years, it is now very difficult to distinguish corporate behavioor from bureaucratic behaviour. You are correct to be confused about the difference. In a free market, corporaate behavior would reward productive risk taking, punish mistakes. In a bureaucratic world, the bureaucrat is careful to obey the regulations, and seek minimal risk so as to avoid any accountability if things went wrong.

Glenn's hysterics aside, you're right about this. Also, the
situation is worsened by the fact that most of these corporate
cartels---operating on the fiat money system and insider trading are
controlling entire economic sectors. It's ridiculous for people like
him to speak about 'consumer choice'.

OK, I choose not to buy foreign-made tools, clothes, or parts. Where
do I go to shop for these things now?

I choose not to travel on airlines that treat consumers with
contempt---so I go where?

I choose not to shop at price-gouging supermarkets or buy gas from
price-gouging energy cartels---my alternative is what?

I choose not to listen to the monopoly media---OK, so I listen to
whom?

I choose not to deal with banking cartels because I don't like their
interest rates or the policies---my alternative is dealing with whom?

I choose not to deal with real-estate cartels and pay over-inflated
rents or mortgages---the alternative is what?

I choose not to buy trashy, foreign-made cars---what can I drive
instead?

Lots more could be included on a list like this---the fact is we do
not have a free market. It goes back to what I said earlier: the
corporate looters have all the power and consumers and employees have
none.

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Philip Berg <philzberg@...>
wrote:

The most successful corporations in the not so distant past

encouraged

entrepeneurial talent. Leaders with proven track records rose

within

the ranks and moved portions of the company forward. In the

automobile

sector, the most famous adherant to that model was Lee Iacocca,

who

was the force behind the Mustang at Ford and the rebirth of

Chrysler.

Unfortunately, because of our ponzi financial system that has
prevented filure for thirty years, it is now very difficult to
distinguish corporate behavioor from bureaucratic behaviour. You

are

correct to be confused about the difference. In a free market,
corporaate behavior would reward productive risk taking, punish
mistakes. In a bureaucratic world, the bureaucrat is careful to

obey

Eric:

If the problems you describe are so severe, you must certainly not be
the only consumer bothered by them. Why don't you seek a market-
based solution and start your own airline, toomaker, clothier,
supermarket, bank, media company, etc.?

If you've identified a way to make any of these industries more
efficient or consumer-friendly, then you can outcompete these
existing companies and get rich.

-Derek

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "ERIC" <lincolnproducts@...>
wrote:

Glenn's hysterics aside, you're right about this. Also, the
situation is worsened by the fact that most of these corporate
cartels---operating on the fiat money system and insider trading

are

controlling entire economic sectors. It's ridiculous for people

like

him to speak about 'consumer choice'.

OK, I choose not to buy foreign-made tools, clothes, or parts.

Where

do I go to shop for these things now?

I choose not to travel on airlines that treat consumers with
contempt---so I go where?

I choose not to shop at price-gouging supermarkets or buy gas from
price-gouging energy cartels---my alternative is what?

I choose not to listen to the monopoly media---OK, so I listen to
whom?

I choose not to deal with banking cartels because I don't like

their

interest rates or the policies---my alternative is dealing with

whom?

I choose not to deal with real-estate cartels and pay over-

inflated

rents or mortgages---the alternative is what?

I choose not to buy trashy, foreign-made cars---what can I drive
instead?

Lots more could be included on a list like this---the fact is we

do

not have a free market. It goes back to what I said earlier: the
corporate looters have all the power and consumers and employees

have

Lots of people have thought of just such ideas. The problem:
implementation. The same corporate looters who've erected these
monopolies have done so with the full aid and comfort of the
politicians and judges they control. They, in turn, set up laws,
regulations, and mandates to prevent the free market from operating
against these cartels.

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@...>
wrote:

Eric:

If the problems you describe are so severe, you must certainly not

be

the only consumer bothered by them. Why don't you seek a market-
based solution and start your own airline, toomaker, clothier,
supermarket, bank, media company, etc.?

If you've identified a way to make any of these industries more
efficient or consumer-friendly, then you can outcompete these
existing companies and get rich.

-Derek

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "ERIC" <lincolnproducts@>
wrote:
>
> Glenn's hysterics aside, you're right about this. Also, the
> situation is worsened by the fact that most of these corporate
> cartels---operating on the fiat money system and insider trading
are
> controlling entire economic sectors. It's ridiculous for people
like
> him to speak about 'consumer choice'.
>
> OK, I choose not to buy foreign-made tools, clothes, or parts.
Where
> do I go to shop for these things now?
>
> I choose not to travel on airlines that treat consumers with
> contempt---so I go where?
>
> I choose not to shop at price-gouging supermarkets or buy gas

from

> price-gouging energy cartels---my alternative is what?
>
> I choose not to listen to the monopoly media---OK, so I listen

to

> whom?
>
> I choose not to deal with banking cartels because I don't like
their
> interest rates or the policies---my alternative is dealing with
whom?
>
> I choose not to deal with real-estate cartels and pay over-
inflated
> rents or mortgages---the alternative is what?
>
> I choose not to buy trashy, foreign-made cars---what can I drive
> instead?
>
> Lots more could be included on a list like this---the fact is we
do
> not have a free market. It goes back to what I said earlier: the
> corporate looters have all the power and consumers and employees
have
> none.
>
>
> --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Philip Berg <philzberg@>
> wrote:
> >
> > The most successful corporations in the not so distant past
> encouraged
> > entrepeneurial talent. Leaders with proven track records rose
> within
> > the ranks and moved portions of the company forward. In the
> automobile
> > sector, the most famous adherant to that model was Lee Iacocca,
> who
> > was the force behind the Mustang at Ford and the rebirth of
> Chrysler.
> > Unfortunately, because of our ponzi financial system that has
> > prevented filure for thirty years, it is now very difficult to
> > distinguish corporate behavioor from bureaucratic behaviour.

You

> are
> > correct to be confused about the difference. In a free market,
> > corporaate behavior would reward productive risk taking,

punish

> > mistakes. In a bureaucratic world, the bureaucrat is careful to
> obey
> > the regulations, and seek minimal risk so as to avoid any
> > accountability if things went wrong.
> >
> > > Isn't that the same thing a corporation does?
> > >
> > > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Philip Berg <philzberg@>
> > > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I guess we really will have cars designed by Committee.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Breaking News Alert
> > >>> The New York Times
> > >>> Sunday, February 15, 2009 -- 9:55 PM ET
> > >>> -----
> > >>>
> > >>> Obama Is Said to Replace Plan for 'Car Czar' With a Panel
> > >>>
> > >>> The Obama administration has dropped the idea of appointing

a

> > >>> "car czar" to oversee the revamping of General Motors and
> > >>> Chrysler and will instead put the politically delicate task
> > >>> in the hands of a presidential panel, a senior

administration

> > >>> official with knowledge of the plan said Sunday night.
> > >>>
> > >>> President Obama is designating the Treasury secretary,
> > >>> Timothy F. Geithner, and the chairman of the National
> > >>> Economic Council, Lawrence H. Summers, to oversee the group.
> > >>>
> > >>> Read More:
> > >>> http://www.nytimes.com/?emc=na
> > >>>
> > >>> -----
> > >>> Now get the New York Times Breaking News to your mobile

phone.

> > > Sign up
> > >>> for the alerts by texting NEWSALERTS to 698698 (NYTNYT).
> > >>> -----
> > >>>
> > >>> About This E-Mail
> > >>> You received this message because you are signed up to

receive

Eric:

No doubt what you say is true in many cases. But, I've taken enough
companies to the equity markets in initial public offerings to know
that large companies get lazy and tired, and an upstart can always
come up with a better product and displace them. There are many many
examples of this.

Don't be so defeatist! Recognize the market dislocation and exploit
it to make money!

-Derek

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "ERIC" <lincolnproducts@...>
wrote:

Lots of people have thought of just such ideas. The problem:
implementation. The same corporate looters who've erected these
monopolies have done so with the full aid and comfort of the
politicians and judges they control. They, in turn, set up laws,
regulations, and mandates to prevent the free market from operating
against these cartels.

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@>
wrote:
>
> Eric:
>
> If the problems you describe are so severe, you must certainly

not

be
> the only consumer bothered by them. Why don't you seek a market-
> based solution and start your own airline, toomaker, clothier,
> supermarket, bank, media company, etc.?
>
> If you've identified a way to make any of these industries more
> efficient or consumer-friendly, then you can outcompete these
> existing companies and get rich.
>
> -Derek
>
> --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "ERIC" <lincolnproducts@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Glenn's hysterics aside, you're right about this. Also, the
> > situation is worsened by the fact that most of these corporate
> > cartels---operating on the fiat money system and insider

trading

> are
> > controlling entire economic sectors. It's ridiculous for people
> like
> > him to speak about 'consumer choice'.
> >
> > OK, I choose not to buy foreign-made tools, clothes, or parts.
> Where
> > do I go to shop for these things now?
> >
> > I choose not to travel on airlines that treat consumers with
> > contempt---so I go where?
> >
> > I choose not to shop at price-gouging supermarkets or buy gas
from
> > price-gouging energy cartels---my alternative is what?
> >
> > I choose not to listen to the monopoly media---OK, so I listen
to
> > whom?
> >
> > I choose not to deal with banking cartels because I don't like
> their
> > interest rates or the policies---my alternative is dealing with
> whom?
> >
> > I choose not to deal with real-estate cartels and pay over-
> inflated
> > rents or mortgages---the alternative is what?
> >
> > I choose not to buy trashy, foreign-made cars---what can I

drive

> > instead?
> >
> > Lots more could be included on a list like this---the fact is

we

> do
> > not have a free market. It goes back to what I said earlier:

the

> > corporate looters have all the power and consumers and

employees

> have
> > none.
> >
> >
> > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Philip Berg <philzberg@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > The most successful corporations in the not so distant past
> > encouraged
> > > entrepeneurial talent. Leaders with proven track records rose
> > within
> > > the ranks and moved portions of the company forward. In the
> > automobile
> > > sector, the most famous adherant to that model was Lee

Iacocca,

> > who
> > > was the force behind the Mustang at Ford and the rebirth of
> > Chrysler.
> > > Unfortunately, because of our ponzi financial system that

has

> > > prevented filure for thirty years, it is now very difficult

to

> > > distinguish corporate behavioor from bureaucratic behaviour.
You
> > are
> > > correct to be confused about the difference. In a free

market,

> > > corporaate behavior would reward productive risk taking,
punish
> > > mistakes. In a bureaucratic world, the bureaucrat is careful

to

> > obey
> > > the regulations, and seek minimal risk so as to avoid any
> > > accountability if things went wrong.
> > >
> > > > Isn't that the same thing a corporation does?
> > > >
> > > > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Philip Berg

<philzberg@>

> > > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> I guess we really will have cars designed by Committee.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> Breaking News Alert
> > > >>> The New York Times
> > > >>> Sunday, February 15, 2009 -- 9:55 PM ET
> > > >>> -----
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Obama Is Said to Replace Plan for 'Car Czar' With a Panel
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The Obama administration has dropped the idea of

appointing

a
> > > >>> "car czar" to oversee the revamping of General Motors and
> > > >>> Chrysler and will instead put the politically delicate

task

> > > >>> in the hands of a presidential panel, a senior
administration
> > > >>> official with knowledge of the plan said Sunday night.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> President Obama is designating the Treasury secretary,
> > > >>> Timothy F. Geithner, and the chairman of the National
> > > >>> Economic Council, Lawrence H. Summers, to oversee the

group.

> > > >>>
> > > >>> Read More:
> > > >>> http://www.nytimes.com/?emc=na
> > > >>>
> > > >>> -----
> > > >>> Now get the New York Times Breaking News to your mobile
phone.
> > > > Sign up
> > > >>> for the alerts by texting NEWSALERTS to 698698 (NYTNYT).
> > > >>> -----
> > > >>>
> > > >>> About This E-Mail
> > > >>> You received this message because you are signed up to
receive
> > > >>> Breaking News
> > > >>> Alerts from NYTimes.com.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your e-mail address or to sign up

for

Well, in fact (in spite of the bad economy) I'm working on a plan to
start a second business. I'm not saying that there is no liberty in
the American market, only that it's badly restricted and these 'lazy
and tired' corporations generally turn to government force when
dealing with 'upstarts'.

Even though he's hardly a libertarian, I think Obama will do a lot
of good by turning the public against these cartels, which should
encourage more entrepreurialism and new business approaches.

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@...>
wrote:

Eric:

No doubt what you say is true in many cases. But, I've taken

enough

companies to the equity markets in initial public offerings to know
that large companies get lazy and tired, and an upstart can always
come up with a better product and displace them. There are many

many

examples of this.

Don't be so defeatist! Recognize the market dislocation and

exploit

it to make money!

-Derek

--- In lpsf-discuss@...m, "ERIC" <lincolnproducts@>
wrote:
>
> Lots of people have thought of just such ideas. The problem:
> implementation. The same corporate looters who've erected these
> monopolies have done so with the full aid and comfort of the
> politicians and judges they control. They, in turn, set up laws,
> regulations, and mandates to prevent the free market from

operating

> against these cartels.
>
> --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Eric:
> >
> > If the problems you describe are so severe, you must certainly
not
> be
> > the only consumer bothered by them. Why don't you seek a

market-

> > based solution and start your own airline, toomaker, clothier,
> > supermarket, bank, media company, etc.?
> >
> > If you've identified a way to make any of these industries more
> > efficient or consumer-friendly, then you can outcompete these
> > existing companies and get rich.
> >
> > -Derek
> >
> > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "ERIC" <lincolnproducts@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Glenn's hysterics aside, you're right about this. Also, the
> > > situation is worsened by the fact that most of these

corporate

> > > cartels---operating on the fiat money system and insider
trading
> > are
> > > controlling entire economic sectors. It's ridiculous for

people

> > like
> > > him to speak about 'consumer choice'.
> > >
> > > OK, I choose not to buy foreign-made tools, clothes, or

parts.

> > Where
> > > do I go to shop for these things now?
> > >
> > > I choose not to travel on airlines that treat consumers with
> > > contempt---so I go where?
> > >
> > > I choose not to shop at price-gouging supermarkets or buy

gas

> from
> > > price-gouging energy cartels---my alternative is what?
> > >
> > > I choose not to listen to the monopoly media---OK, so I

listen

> to
> > > whom?
> > >
> > > I choose not to deal with banking cartels because I don't

like

> > their
> > > interest rates or the policies---my alternative is dealing

with

> > whom?
> > >
> > > I choose not to deal with real-estate cartels and pay over-
> > inflated
> > > rents or mortgages---the alternative is what?
> > >
> > > I choose not to buy trashy, foreign-made cars---what can I
drive
> > > instead?
> > >
> > > Lots more could be included on a list like this---the fact

is

we
> > do
> > > not have a free market. It goes back to what I said earlier:
the
> > > corporate looters have all the power and consumers and
employees
> > have
> > > none.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Philip Berg <philzberg@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The most successful corporations in the not so distant past
> > > encouraged
> > > > entrepeneurial talent. Leaders with proven track records

rose

> > > within
> > > > the ranks and moved portions of the company forward. In the
> > > automobile
> > > > sector, the most famous adherant to that model was Lee
Iacocca,
> > > who
> > > > was the force behind the Mustang at Ford and the rebirth of
> > > Chrysler.
> > > > Unfortunately, because of our ponzi financial system that
has
> > > > prevented filure for thirty years, it is now very difficult
to
> > > > distinguish corporate behavioor from bureaucratic

behaviour.

> You
> > > are
> > > > correct to be confused about the difference. In a free
market,
> > > > corporaate behavior would reward productive risk taking,
> punish
> > > > mistakes. In a bureaucratic world, the bureaucrat is

careful

to
> > > obey
> > > > the regulations, and seek minimal risk so as to avoid any
> > > > accountability if things went wrong.
> > > >
> > > > > Isn't that the same thing a corporation does?
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Philip Berg
<philzberg@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I guess we really will have cars designed by Committee.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Breaking News Alert
> > > > >>> The New York Times
> > > > >>> Sunday, February 15, 2009 -- 9:55 PM ET
> > > > >>> -----
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Obama Is Said to Replace Plan for 'Car Czar' With a

Panel

> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> The Obama administration has dropped the idea of
appointing
> a
> > > > >>> "car czar" to oversee the revamping of General Motors

and

> > > > >>> Chrysler and will instead put the politically delicate
task
> > > > >>> in the hands of a presidential panel, a senior
> administration
> > > > >>> official with knowledge of the plan said Sunday night.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> President Obama is designating the Treasury secretary,
> > > > >>> Timothy F. Geithner, and the chairman of the National
> > > > >>> Economic Council, Lawrence H. Summers, to oversee the
group.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Read More:
> > > > >>> http://www.nytimes.com/?emc=na
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> -----
> > > > >>> Now get the New York Times Breaking News to your mobile
> phone.
> > > > > Sign up
> > > > >>> for the alerts by texting NEWSALERTS to 698698 (NYTNYT).
> > > > >>> -----
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> About This E-Mail
> > > > >>> You received this message because you are signed up to
> receive
> > > > >>> Breaking News
> > > > >>> Alerts from NYTimes.com.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your e-mail address or to sign

up

Eric:

Agreed. Corporatism is the dark underbelly of what passes for
conservatism in this country.

-Derek

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "ERIC" <lincolnproducts@...>
wrote:

Well, in fact (in spite of the bad economy) I'm working on a plan

to

start a second business. I'm not saying that there is no liberty in
the American market, only that it's badly restricted and

these 'lazy

and tired' corporations generally turn to government force when
dealing with 'upstarts'.

Even though he's hardly a libertarian, I think Obama will do a lot
of good by turning the public against these cartels, which should
encourage more entrepreurialism and new business approaches.

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@>
wrote:
>
> Eric:
>
> No doubt what you say is true in many cases. But, I've taken
enough
> companies to the equity markets in initial public offerings to

know

> that large companies get lazy and tired, and an upstart can

always

> come up with a better product and displace them. There are many
many
> examples of this.
>
> Don't be so defeatist! Recognize the market dislocation and
exploit
> it to make money!
>
> -Derek
>
>
> --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "ERIC" <lincolnproducts@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Lots of people have thought of just such ideas. The problem:
> > implementation. The same corporate looters who've erected these
> > monopolies have done so with the full aid and comfort of the
> > politicians and judges they control. They, in turn, set up

laws,

> > regulations, and mandates to prevent the free market from
operating
> > against these cartels.
> >
> > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Eric:
> > >
> > > If the problems you describe are so severe, you must

certainly

> not
> > be
> > > the only consumer bothered by them. Why don't you seek a
market-
> > > based solution and start your own airline, toomaker,

clothier,

> > > supermarket, bank, media company, etc.?
> > >
> > > If you've identified a way to make any of these industries

more

> > > efficient or consumer-friendly, then you can outcompete these
> > > existing companies and get rich.
> > >
> > > -Derek
> > >
> > > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "ERIC"

<lincolnproducts@>

> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Glenn's hysterics aside, you're right about this. Also,

the

> > > > situation is worsened by the fact that most of these
corporate
> > > > cartels---operating on the fiat money system and insider
> trading
> > > are
> > > > controlling entire economic sectors. It's ridiculous for
people
> > > like
> > > > him to speak about 'consumer choice'.
> > > >
> > > > OK, I choose not to buy foreign-made tools, clothes, or
parts.
> > > Where
> > > > do I go to shop for these things now?
> > > >
> > > > I choose not to travel on airlines that treat consumers

with

> > > > contempt---so I go where?
> > > >
> > > > I choose not to shop at price-gouging supermarkets or buy
gas
> > from
> > > > price-gouging energy cartels---my alternative is what?
> > > >
> > > > I choose not to listen to the monopoly media---OK, so I
listen
> > to
> > > > whom?
> > > >
> > > > I choose not to deal with banking cartels because I don't
like
> > > their
> > > > interest rates or the policies---my alternative is dealing
with
> > > whom?
> > > >
> > > > I choose not to deal with real-estate cartels and pay over-
> > > inflated
> > > > rents or mortgages---the alternative is what?
> > > >
> > > > I choose not to buy trashy, foreign-made cars---what can I
> drive
> > > > instead?
> > > >
> > > > Lots more could be included on a list like this---the fact
is
> we
> > > do
> > > > not have a free market. It goes back to what I said

earlier:

> the
> > > > corporate looters have all the power and consumers and
> employees
> > > have
> > > > none.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Philip Berg

<philzberg@>

> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The most successful corporations in the not so distant

past

> > > > encouraged
> > > > > entrepeneurial talent. Leaders with proven track records
rose
> > > > within
> > > > > the ranks and moved portions of the company forward. In

the

> > > > automobile
> > > > > sector, the most famous adherant to that model was Lee
> Iacocca,
> > > > who
> > > > > was the force behind the Mustang at Ford and the rebirth

of

> > > > Chrysler.
> > > > > Unfortunately, because of our ponzi financial system

that

> has
> > > > > prevented filure for thirty years, it is now very

difficult

> to
> > > > > distinguish corporate behavioor from bureaucratic
behaviour.
> > You
> > > > are
> > > > > correct to be confused about the difference. In a free
> market,
> > > > > corporaate behavior would reward productive risk taking,
> > punish
> > > > > mistakes. In a bureaucratic world, the bureaucrat is
careful
> to
> > > > obey
> > > > > the regulations, and seek minimal risk so as to avoid

any

> > > > > accountability if things went wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Isn't that the same thing a corporation does?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Philip Berg
> <philzberg@>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I guess we really will have cars designed by Committee.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>> Breaking News Alert
> > > > > >>> The New York Times
> > > > > >>> Sunday, February 15, 2009 -- 9:55 PM ET
> > > > > >>> -----
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Obama Is Said to Replace Plan for 'Car Czar' With a
Panel
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> The Obama administration has dropped the idea of
> appointing
> > a
> > > > > >>> "car czar" to oversee the revamping of General Motors
and
> > > > > >>> Chrysler and will instead put the politically

delicate

> task
> > > > > >>> in the hands of a presidential panel, a senior
> > administration
> > > > > >>> official with knowledge of the plan said Sunday night.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> President Obama is designating the Treasury secretary,
> > > > > >>> Timothy F. Geithner, and the chairman of the National
> > > > > >>> Economic Council, Lawrence H. Summers, to oversee the
> group.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Read More:
> > > > > >>> http://www.nytimes.com/?emc=na
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> -----
> > > > > >>> Now get the New York Times Breaking News to your

mobile

> > phone.
> > > > > > Sign up
> > > > > >>> for the alerts by texting NEWSALERTS to 698698

(NYTNYT).

> > > > > >>> -----
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> About This E-Mail
> > > > > >>> You received this message because you are signed up

to

Derek,

  You sound as though you believe conservatism is a good thing! I'd take that evocative metaphor a step further and say conservatism is the dark underbelly of what (for many) passes for a belief in liberty. I'm not saying the left on the whole is any better, but I will say that the right seems to be the faction most likely to use libertarian, pro-freedom, pro-Constitution rhetoric and then betray it. And too many people who should be fully in the libertarian camp are still seduced.

Love & Liberty,
        ((( starchild )))

Starchild:

Agreed on all points.

Derek

Starchild:

Absolutely! The damage the neocons have done to the cause of liberty
simply by their betrayals and countereits of it is the biggest
challenge we have to face during the next decade. the first and
foremost step is to expose the neocons and the fakelibs for what they
really are.

Derek,

  You sound as though you believe conservatism is a good thing!

I'd

take that evocative metaphor a step further and say conservatism

is

the dark underbelly of what (for many) passes for a belief in
liberty. I'm not saying the left on the whole is any better, but I
will say that the right seems to be the faction most likely to use
libertarian, pro-freedom, pro-Constitution rhetoric and then

betray

it. And too many people who should be fully in the libertarian

camp

are still seduced.

Love & Liberty,
        ((( starchild )))

> Eric:
>
> Agreed. Corporatism is the dark underbelly of what passes for
> conservatism in this country.
>
> -Derek
>
> --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "ERIC" <lincolnproducts@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Well, in fact (in spite of the bad economy) I'm working on a

plan

> to
> > start a second business. I'm not saying that there is no

liberty in

> > the American market, only that it's badly restricted and
> these 'lazy
> > and tired' corporations generally turn to government force when
> > dealing with 'upstarts'.
> >
> > Even though he's hardly a libertarian, I think Obama will do a

lot

> > of good by turning the public against these cartels, which

should

> > encourage more entrepreurialism and new business approaches.
> >
> >
> > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Eric:
> > >
> > > No doubt what you say is true in many cases. But, I've taken
> > enough
> > > companies to the equity markets in initial public offerings to
> know
> > > that large companies get lazy and tired, and an upstart can
> always
> > > come up with a better product and displace them. There are

many

> > many
> > > examples of this.
> > >
> > > Don't be so defeatist! Recognize the market dislocation and
> > exploit
> > > it to make money!
> > >
> > > -Derek
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "ERIC" <lincolnproducts@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Lots of people have thought of just such ideas. The problem:
> > > > implementation. The same corporate looters who've erected

these

> > > > monopolies have done so with the full aid and comfort of the
> > > > politicians and judges they control. They, in turn, set up
> laws,
> > > > regulations, and mandates to prevent the free market from
> > operating
> > > > against these cartels.
> > > >
> > > > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Jensen"

<derekj72@>

> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Eric:
> > > > >
> > > > > If the problems you describe are so severe, you must
> certainly
> > > not
> > > > be
> > > > > the only consumer bothered by them. Why don't you seek a
> > market-
> > > > > based solution and start your own airline, toomaker,
> clothier,
> > > > > supermarket, bank, media company, etc.?
> > > > >
> > > > > If you've identified a way to make any of these industries
> more
> > > > > efficient or consumer-friendly, then you can outcompete

these

> > > > > existing companies and get rich.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Derek
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "ERIC"
> <lincolnproducts@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Glenn's hysterics aside, you're right about this. Also,
> the
> > > > > > situation is worsened by the fact that most of these
> > corporate
> > > > > > cartels---operating on the fiat money system and insider
> > > trading
> > > > > are
> > > > > > controlling entire economic sectors. It's ridiculous for
> > people
> > > > > like
> > > > > > him to speak about 'consumer choice'.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OK, I choose not to buy foreign-made tools, clothes, or
> > parts.
> > > > > Where
> > > > > > do I go to shop for these things now?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I choose not to travel on airlines that treat consumers
> with
> > > > > > contempt---so I go where?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I choose not to shop at price-gouging supermarkets or

buy

> > gas
> > > > from
> > > > > > price-gouging energy cartels---my alternative is what?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I choose not to listen to the monopoly media---OK, so I
> > listen
> > > > to
> > > > > > whom?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I choose not to deal with banking cartels because I

don't

> > like
> > > > > their
> > > > > > interest rates or the policies---my alternative is

dealing

> > with
> > > > > whom?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I choose not to deal with real-estate cartels and pay

over-

> > > > > inflated
> > > > > > rents or mortgages---the alternative is what?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I choose not to buy trashy, foreign-made cars---what

can I

> > > drive
> > > > > > instead?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lots more could be included on a list like this---the

fact

> > is
> > > we
> > > > > do
> > > > > > not have a free market. It goes back to what I said
> earlier:
> > > the
> > > > > > corporate looters have all the power and consumers and
> > > employees
> > > > > have
> > > > > > none.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Philip Berg
> <philzberg@>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The most successful corporations in the not so distant
> past
> > > > > > encouraged
> > > > > > > entrepeneurial talent. Leaders with proven track

records

> > rose
> > > > > > within
> > > > > > > the ranks and moved portions of the company forward.

In

> the
> > > > > > automobile
> > > > > > > sector, the most famous adherant to that model was Lee
> > > Iacocca,
> > > > > > who
> > > > > > > was the force behind the Mustang at Ford and the

rebirth

> of
> > > > > > Chrysler.
> > > > > > > Unfortunately, because of our ponzi financial system
> that
> > > has
> > > > > > > prevented filure for thirty years, it is now very
> difficult
> > > to
> > > > > > > distinguish corporate behavioor from bureaucratic
> > behaviour.
> > > > You
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > correct to be confused about the difference. In a free
> > > market,
> > > > > > > corporaate behavior would reward productive risk

taking,

> > > > punish
> > > > > > > mistakes. In a bureaucratic world, the bureaucrat is
> > careful
> > > to
> > > > > > obey
> > > > > > > the regulations, and seek minimal risk so as to avoid
> any
> > > > > > > accountability if things went wrong.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Isn't that the same thing a corporation does?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Philip Berg
> > > <philzberg@>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> I guess we really will have cars designed by

Committee.

> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>> Breaking News Alert
> > > > > > > >>> The New York Times
> > > > > > > >>> Sunday, February 15, 2009 -- 9:55 PM ET
> > > > > > > >>> -----
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> Obama Is Said to Replace Plan for 'Car Czar' With

a

> > Panel
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> The Obama administration has dropped the idea of
> > > appointing
> > > > a
> > > > > > > >>> "car czar" to oversee the revamping of General

Motors

> > and
> > > > > > > >>> Chrysler and will instead put the politically
> delicate
> > > task
> > > > > > > >>> in the hands of a presidential panel, a senior
> > > > administration
> > > > > > > >>> official with knowledge of the plan said Sunday

night.

> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> President Obama is designating the Treasury

secretary,

> > > > > > > >>> Timothy F. Geithner, and the chairman of the

National

> > > > > > > >>> Economic Council, Lawrence H. Summers, to oversee

the

> > > group.
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> Read More:
> > > > > > > >>> http://www.nytimes.com/?emc=na
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> -----
> > > > > > > >>> Now get the New York Times Breaking News to your
> mobile
> > > > phone.
> > > > > > > > Sign up
> > > > > > > >>> for the alerts by texting NEWSALERTS to 698698
> (NYTNYT).
> > > > > > > >>> -----
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> About This E-Mail
> > > > > > > >>> You received this message because you are signed

up

> to
> > > > receive
> > > > > > > >>> Breaking News
> > > > > > > >>> Alerts from NYTimes.com.
> > > > > > > >>>
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