Donny,
When an LP press release takes a less libertarian position on freedom of movement than the head of "Homeland Security," and the contrast is highlighted right there in the press release, it starts to get a bit disconcerting. Can you show me where in the U.S. Constitution the U.S. federal government is authorized to control who moves across national borders? What happened to "innocent until proven guilty?"
I'm sorry if you only seem to be hearing from me about stuff that's a problem. I heartily wish I didn't keep seeing such things that demanded comment, and that instead I noticed communications where you were strongly and proudly defending radical libertarian principles. Have there been any? Are you doing any outreach designed to appeal to people on the left? What percentage of the total would you say such materials constitute?
Is there anything that concerned Libertarian Party members like myself, who want to see us remain a libertarian party of principle, can do to help?
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Starchild,
What if, this Flu virus had been as severe as that in 1918?
Keeping the border open and allowing millions of people to die needlessly
would have been irresponsible no..? We can say now perhaps, that the
hysteria surrounding this particular virus was overblown..........but that
is hindsight.
Quarantines can be effective.
And since when is a libertarian principle radical..?
Glenn,
The swine flu is already in the United States, haven't you heard? If it makes sense to delay people traveling between countries, then how about between states or cities? Would you like to be stopped every time you head across the bridge to Oakland or Marin? After all, if the flu can be prevented from spreading to another city or region, many lives could be saved, right?
If it's important enough to do at a national border, it's important enough to do everywhere else, since the flu virus can't tell the difference between various types of human borders. If authorities are not willing to apply the same standard everywhere, then this is obviously just another xenophobic, nationalistic attempt to militarize and impose additional controls on national borders.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Starchild,
I thought this was an intellectual discussion?
Yes, I had heard that the swine flu had crossed the border into the US. I
believe they have even identified when and where.
Effective quarantining of a Pandemic flu virus is a scientific discussion.
It has nothing to do with political dogma.
Quarantines have proven successful against flu pandemics in the past. Even
during the 1918 flu pandemic that some say killed 100 million there were in
fact successful quarantines although in fairness they were largely if not
exclusively in island nations.
A good example of this was Australia, who managed to keep the influenza off
their island until a full 3-4 months after the flu had swept thru New
Zealand with a devastating effect.
Although we are not an island nation, with nearly a hundred years of science
and understanding between us and the 1918 pandemic, we could ostensibly
postpone the arrival of the pandemic until it had weakened. Isolate and
treat those diagnosed inside the quarantine with modern isolation techniques
and treatments similar to tamiflu. (although there is resistance building)
This is in fact an appropriate role of a federal government.
Perhaps this was not warranted in this particular instance. If it had been
a flu virus as deadly as 1918 we would have seen deaths in much greater
quantities and an abbreviated time-frame vs. Mexico city currently.
But that is no reason to ignore the scientific aspect of pandemic, or the
potential of saving countless lives if in the case of a severe pandemic.
Conservatives closing borders is certainly an authentic libertarian
issue...........but you've changed the subject.
One can support containment of a pandemic virus like influenza, and still be
an open borders supporter. They are not mutually exclusive ideals.
Glenn,
Did I say something to imply this wasn't an intellectual discussion? Your message doesn't seem to be addressing the question I raised -- why close national borders but not state, city, or local borders? I'm not ignoring the scientific issue; I'm saying if the effort to fight an epidemic is going to proceed scientifically, then do it on the basis of science, and don't let enforcement be influenced by nationalism or other statist agendas.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
There was a tone of sarcasm that clearly was out of the realm of scientific
discussion. "The swine flu is already in the United States, haven't you
heard?"
As far as your question of closing borders by state, city, or local bridges
et.al.
I'm sure that these are at times logical measures........however this
particular pandemic had its origins to the south of our border...so the
logical first step might be to preclude its possible entry thru that
particular border.
Whilst it may have been perceived as Xenophobic by you, or opportunistically
used to further xenophobic policies.........is perhaps an unfortunate
coincidence.
Glenn,
My apologies for the sarcasm. But you appeared to be defending the LP press release calling for refusing entry at the Mexican border to people with swine flu, and that press release appeared AFTER it was well established that swine flu is present in multiple locations in multiple U.S. states.
As for the origins of this swine flu epidemic -- calling it a "pandemic" seems premature to me at this point -- that becomes rather irrelevant to the question of controlling movement after it has already spread outside that area.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
Private efforts and local efforts at quarantining are far more likely to be effective than Government, especially Federal government efforts. The Feds are sure to mess it up and probably deny access at the border to the guy who is needed at Genentech to figure out the last detail for saving Humanity, or some other screw up. Individuals have an interest in protecting themselves and in organizing the community to do so.
It was pretty obvious to anyone with a reasonably skeptical mind to see this thing was being blown out of proportion from the git go
Taking arbitrary militaristic actions is likely to drive desperate travelers underground, making reasonable precautions less effective.
Much of the public health establishment loves to pretend they are in the Fredonian Army, thus the silly uniforms of the Public Health Service, and The Surgeon General.
When I was still practicing Industrial Hygiene I went to a conference on Bioterrorism at Johns Hopkins. The researchers were foaming at the mouth at the hundreds of millions being dangled before them, but they still managed to take off in mass for and anti Iraq war rally. I smiled at the perfection of the hypocracy.