Freedom for all, not just Americans (was Re: Ron Paul On War)

Ron,

To come to the defense of Starchild here, one thing to remember
when analyzing the situation in Iraq is that the resistance is most
certainly not coming from where you're saying it is. The resistance
is almost entirely from outsiders, sent by Syria, the PLO and Al-Queda
primarily. The Iraqi people are overjoyed that we're there and are hoping
we will stay for a very long time.

And your numbers are pretty much off, as well. The ratios between the
US troops and the guerilla forces are much greater in the favor of the
good guys than you postulate are needed.

The Iraqis are perfectly aware of the wonderful benefits a free and
democratic
society can bring them. They're already far better off than they ever were
under
Sadaam and that includes before the first war, Desert Storm.

To argue over these points, however, is to fall into the Left-Right trap.
The correct discussion for Libertarians to have is one of the points of
legality
and of funding. What is the legal and correct way for something like this
to be
done? How should this effort be funded, if at all? Now _those_ are good
discussion points.

The world is clearly a better and safer place after Sadaam has been hurled
from
power. To argue otherwise is to hide one's head in the sand and to lose
credibility
with those listening to the discussion.

For example, the two most wanted terrorists in the world, Abu Abbas and Abu
Nidal
were found there. One dead, and the other alive; singing like a well fed
canary.
Yes, the person who was in charge of kidnapping the Acchille Lauro and
throwing
Leon Klinghoffer into the sea ended his career because of us going into
Iraq.

Now, I agree with you that I don't want the US to be the world's policeman.
I agree with you that we are in far too many places around the world.
I too worry about how we should pay for this effort.
But, we had a little Hitler on our hands, a little Pol Pot. I can't imagine
letting
Sadaam stay in power.

At some point, some people are just too evil and too dangerous to leave be.
Me, I think this was one of those cases.

And yes, I'm still a Libertarian, through and through.

Bruce Cohen
LPCA Board
US Congressional Candidate

Dear Bruce;

The resistance is not coming mainly from outsiders it is internal.
For more on this specific fact see these google websites.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-
8&q=Iraqi+resistance+movement&btnG=Google+Search

The figures I cited for offensive number of troops vs. guerilla
fighters is based on several successful campaigns at varous places
around the world over several years. The ratio of 15 - 20 offensive
troops vs. guerillas is based on these successful campaigns.

I will mention these successful campaigns also included the
government of the respective countries giving the people what the
guerillas were saying they wanted to give to the people. So the
governments did an end run around the guerillas campaign slogans.
This took the wind out of the guerillas sails.

For the US in Iraq this means getting out of Iraq as quickly as
possible. I have a neighborhood corner grocer ( from an un-named
country in Arabia ) who is totally torn up by what is going on since
hostilities were declared as being over in Iraq. His contention is
the sooner the troops are out and the people of Iraq can be allowed
to decide for themselves what they want done in their country the
better everyone will be.

For more on what daily life in Iraq is go to the two blog sites:

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

http://dear_raed.blogspot.com/

These will give you some Iraqi viewpoints of what life is like under
an occupying army - even if the army is as friendly as an armed
puppy dog.

As far as letting Little Hitlers run around and doing something
about them what about the various African dictators and the Serb-
Croatia wars in the Balkans? Things were done but way to late.

When do you decide that you must intervene and who decides who
should do the intervention? You can go nuts making those decisions.
Or as someone said where's the UN when you need them? And I'm not
even going to open that can of worms.

Being the worlds self-appointed policeman isn't an easy job and the
tax payers pay the price. $87 Billion to Halliburton and what could
that amount of money do for US citizens here in the good old USA?

See this web site for what $87 Billion could do in the US.

http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/8857

Ah yes - ain't geo-politics fun?

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian
    
--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "brucedcohen"
<brucedcohen@c...> wrote:

Ron,

To come to the defense of Starchild here, one thing to remember
when analyzing the situation in Iraq is that the resistance is most
certainly not coming from where you're saying it is. The

resistance

is almost entirely from outsiders, sent by Syria, the PLO and Al-

Queda

primarily. The Iraqi people are overjoyed that we're there and

are hoping

we will stay for a very long time.

And your numbers are pretty much off, as well. The ratios between

the

US troops and the guerilla forces are much greater in the favor of

the

good guys than you postulate are needed.

The Iraqis are perfectly aware of the wonderful benefits a free and
democratic
society can bring them. They're already far better off than they

ever were

under
Sadaam and that includes before the first war, Desert Storm.

To argue over these points, however, is to fall into the Left-

Right trap.

The correct discussion for Libertarians to have is one of the

points of

legality
and of funding. What is the legal and correct way for something

like this

to be
done? How should this effort be funded, if at all? Now _those_

are good

discussion points.

The world is clearly a better and safer place after Sadaam has

been hurled

from
power. To argue otherwise is to hide one's head in the sand and

to lose

credibility
with those listening to the discussion.

For example, the two most wanted terrorists in the world, Abu

Abbas and Abu

Nidal
were found there. One dead, and the other alive; singing like a

well fed

canary.
Yes, the person who was in charge of kidnapping the Acchille Lauro

and

throwing
Leon Klinghoffer into the sea ended his career because of us going

into

Iraq.

Now, I agree with you that I don't want the US to be the world's

policeman.

I agree with you that we are in far too many places around the

world.

I too worry about how we should pay for this effort.
But, we had a little Hitler on our hands, a little Pol Pot. I

can't imagine

letting
Sadaam stay in power.

At some point, some people are just too evil and too dangerous to

leave be.

Me, I think this was one of those cases.

And yes, I'm still a Libertarian, through and through.

Bruce Cohen
LPCA Board
US Congressional Candidate
From: "tradergroupe" <tradergroupe@y...>
To: <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 10:33 PM
Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Freedom for all, not just Americans (was

Re: Ron

Paul On War)

> Dear Starchild;
>
> My point was not what you or I would do in giving Libertarian
> principles to the people of Iraq or the Middle East. So they

could

> adapt Libertarian principles to their cultural values.
>
> My grave concern is Bush and his neo-con buddies imposing their
> viewpoint of what democracy means to them on the people of Iraq.
> And if Bush and his buddies can make it happen - the rest of the
> Middle East.
>
> For Bush and his neo-cons are ignoring the reality of the

situation

> in Iraq while trying to install democracy. The battle is not over
> democracy vs. non-democracy. It is Islam throughout the world vs.
> democracy in Iraq, American style. If Islam can defeat Ameican

style

> democracy, culutural values and systems then America is finished
> throughout the Middle East.
>
> Bush and his good old buddies are fighting a war of high

technolgy

> vs. ideology. Just look at the latest donkey cart rocket attack.

All

> the high tech military gizmos couldn't stop a donkey cart rocket
> attack.
>
> Ideology will always win because you can not kill an ideology.

And

> you can not replace an ideology by fiat with democracy. When you
> have an ideology which can get people to be suicide bombers try
> using high tech to stop them.
>
> The simple fact is Bush is in a Revolutionary War in Iraq with
> guerillas being the first step. In succesful fights against a
> guerilla war the ratio of 15 - 20 offensive troops against each
> guerilla is needed. Bush would need three times the 140,000

troops

> he has there to win in Iraq.
>
> This is based on an adult male population of about 12 million.

Then

> taking into account those who were members of the elite

Republican

> Guards and others who did receive military training. You easily

have

> a guerilla force of some 25,000.
>
> Libertarian principles are great to talk about and what they

could

> do for the people of Iraq or the Middle East. But neither you or

I

> have a ghost of a chance of getting up to the plate to even show
> what these principles could mean in a free Iraq.
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
> --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Starchild <sfdreamer@e...>
> wrote:
> > Ron,
> >
> > Since I doubt President Bush will get back to you, I'll give
> you my
> > response. 8) I believe everyone in the world deserves the
> benefits of
> > living in a libertarian society. Within these societies, they
> would be
> > free to form voluntary communities with different values,
> standards,
> > and rules, as long as they did not attempt to force them on
> others. As
> > Chris Maden stated in a previous email, that's a key facet of
> > libertarianism -- it is compatible with all kinds of diverse
> cultures,
> > values and beliefs as long as they are peaceful, whereas

statist

> > systems are not.
> >
> > I don't think individual liberty is an "American" value. It
> is a
> > contradiction in terms to speak of "forcing" libertarianism on
> anyone,
> > imho, because it is by definition the state of affairs in which
> people
> > are not subject to legal coercion. (While it may not be

possible

> to
> > abolish coercion entirely, that ought to be the light by which

we

> set
> > our bearings.) The Japanese have largely embraced "American"
> values of
> > government despite this "foreign value system" being "imposed

by

> force"
> > after WWII, and Japan is now the second-wealthiest country in

the

> world.
> >
> > Property rights, civil liberties like free speech, religious
> > plurality, the right to self defense, the right to self-

medicate,

> and
> > freedom from economic regulations and controls are not

American or

> > Judeo-Christian values any more than they are Arabian or

Islamic

> > values. These values are more prevalent in developed Western
> countries
> > not *because* of the Judeo-Christian tradition, but in spite of
> it. The
> > spirit of scientific enlightenment that flourished in the "Age

of

> > Reason" and the example of Athenian democracy handed down from
> ancient
> > Greece have done much more to help Europe and America escape

the

> > shackles of state oppression than the Judeo-Christian

influence.

> If the
> > popes and rabbis had gotten their way, we'd still be living in

the

> Dark
> > Ages.
> >
> > The governments of Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia should each
> start by
> > writing a good, secular, libertarian-style constitution, and
> seeing
> > that any official who knowingly violates its terms immediately
> loses
> > his or her job and is banned from government employment.

Implement

> a
> > jury system for all offenses, cease prosecuting any victimless
> crimes,
> > and invite non-governmental civics organizations and

libertarians

> from
> > other countries to come in and teach people about exercising

their

> > rights in a free society. Privatize significant state-owned

assets

> such
> > as mosques and Islamic holy sites and give them to peaceful
> religious
> > groups in order to cultivate goodwill among the moderate

religious

> > majority and make it clear that the separation of church and

state

> > isn't an attack on Islam. Meanwhile, defund the extremist

madrasas

> > (religious schools) that are currently teaching jihad, hatred

of

> Jews,
> > and other harmful doctrines, and create incentives for victims

of

> > violence to bring lawsuits against the fundamentalist clerics

and

> > organizations who sponsor and incite such acts. Establish new
> political
> > parties, NGOs, and independent media outlets, with state

support

> at
> > first if necessary to get the ball rolling. After a suitable
> length of
> > time has gone by and these fundamental institutions have

gotten on

> > their feet, start holding elections. Begin at the local level

in

> small
> > jurisdictions, so that people can be taught about the electoral
> process
> > as it is established, and elections can be closely monitored

for

> any
> > abuses, and gradually expand to other areas and to the national
> level.
> >
> > We no longer see "domestic violence" as more acceptable than
> street
> > violence, even within a voluntary marriage -- we urge the

police

> to
> > intervene in true cases of spousal and child abuse. If the
> officers
> > come from a different national, ethnic or cultural background

than

> the
> > family, this is not particularly important. Can there be any

doubt

> of
> > the horrible abuses being perpetrated by various governments,
> including
> > many in the Middle East, against "their" citizens? Why should

an

> entire
> > country be off-limits to outside action to correct serious and
> > systematic abuses, when the validity of external intervention

is

> > recognized even in intimate family situations? What "imperial
> right" do
> > members of the Saudi royal family have to maintain their legal
> > privileges and enforce their statist and strict Islamic views

of

> > government over all the people of Saudi Arabia in violation of
> those
> > peoples' inalienable natural rights?
> >
> > Yours in liberty,
> > <<< Starchild >>>
> >
> >
> >
> > > Dear Everyone;
> > >
> > > Starchild in part said he thought Bush gave a good speech

calling

> > > for greater democracy in the Arab world and reform in Egypt,
> Syria
> > > Saudi Arabia.
> > >
> > > Perhaps Bush or Starchild could explain which version of
> democracy
> > > they would like to see installed in Iraq or Arabia.
> > >
> > > L. Paul Bremer, America's chief postwar Iraq administrator

said

> in
> > > part, " The United States will help write an interim Iraqi
> > > constitution that embodies American values and will lead to

the

> > > creation of a new government. The interim constitution will

also

> > > provide in a limited time, probably two years, for a

permanent

> > > constitution to be written that also embodies American

values."

> > >
> > > How do you impose a foreign cultural value system on another
> people?
> > > What force do you use on other people to make them adapt a
> foreign
> > > cultural value system? Do you also force them to accept new
> moral,
> > > ethical, civil and religious values in their daily lives so

they

> > > will be more eager to agree to a new foreign value system?
> > >
> > > American cultural democracy is based on a Judeo-Christian

value

> > > system which evolved in western Europe over several hundred
> years.
> > > In Iraq you have an Arabic cultural value system which

evolved

> over
> > > several hundred years based on the Muslim religion.
> > >
> > > What imperial right does the Bush administration have to

brush

> aside
> > > several hundred years of Arabic-Muslim cultural values and by
> fiat
> > > or force install an American style democracy value system in
> Iraq?
> > >
> > > Perhaps someone could give an explanation of this.
> > >
> > > This imposition of democracy is the direct antithesis of
> Libertarian
> > > principles. How could someone support the Bush version of
> democracy
> > > in Iraq where it would be forced on the Iraqis whether they
> liked it
> > > or not?
> > >
> > > Ron Getty
> > > SF Libertarian
> > >
> > > --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Starchild

<sfdreamer@e...>

> > > wrote:
> > >> Chris,
> > >>
> > >> I wasn't aware of "us" doing anything in Iraq. I did (and
> > > do) support
> > >> the U.S. government's military action against Saddam

Hussein's

> > > regime.
> > >> My enthusiasm for it was rather lukewarm due to the methods
> used,
> > > the
> > >> funding, and the context of other abuses in the "war on
> > > terrorism," but
> > >> on balance I believe it was a step in the right direction. I
> also
> > >> thought Bush gave a good speech recently calling for greater
> > > democracy
> > >> in the Arab world and specifically mentioning the need for
> reform
> > > in
> > >> Syria, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia.
> > >>
> > >> Yours in liberty,
> > >> <<< Starchild >>>
>
>
>
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