After their ritual torture, they roll the body around in the pool of blood and discuss the situation while his brain dies from hypoxia. They repeat "He was on something. He was on something" as they continue about their "police work".
He endures 7 minutes of torture, crying for help from 15:00 to 22:30, "help me Dad", "help me Daddy", his last cries at 22:49.
And let that be a lesson to you---we are a nation of jailers. If you resist
the police you will be arrested. If you resist arrest you will be beaten. If
you resist a beating you will be shot.
And obviously many of our fellow citizens think that is A-OK. They are
willing to acquit jack boot thugs for murder.
Debbie Schum
Behalf Of John Bechtol
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Do you know if the judge or the jury saw the video? The video clearly shows
the officers to be guilty.
Sam Sloan
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The travesty is probably in the jury instructions that define what murder is. Holocausts are not seen as murders. They are considered legitimate operations by a society that perpetrated them.
We are no other society than that, as we continue to tolerate an inquisition of the mentally ill, users of drugs without blessings, and the non-coformist du jur.
The terrifying and lethal behavior of the police is frequently exonerated. And even when the people of Fullerton rose up to seek justice, they struggled alone as we went about our business.
We have been useless to them and there is no network by which we are anything else but enuchs for the imperial regime.
--- Sent with mail@metro, Real Life Real Time Mobile ---
I tried to research that-it does appear that the jury did see the video.
It's sickening.
Debbie
Behalf Of Sam Sloan
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Well, it appears that the jury just believed the defense attorneys. Hey, the crazy guy said he couldn’t breathe, but he was yelling that, so obviously he could breathe. That’s what one of the jurors said afterwards—kind of misses the point of whether he deserved to be beaten to death, though, doesn’t it? Besides, he must’ve actually done something wrong or they wouldn’t have done this to him, right? (that way we can avoid the fear that it really could actually happen to any one of us for no reason)
All the right winger activists I know in my area (I live in rural western Colorado) yammer on and on about how we are becoming a socialist state—so they can avoid the reality that we already are and have been for a long time a socialist state.
While I certainly don’t condone the beating to death of the mentally ill, this case brings up again the question of what we as a society actually do about it. This is not a shallow question for me—I just divorced, last June, a schizophrenic, after 17 years of marriage. It is easy to sympathize with someone who has cancer or a broken leg. Even Depression. But many mental illnesses (like bi-polar or schizophrenia or personality disorders) are difficult to sympathize with. The delusions are often accompanied by anosognosia (the part of the brain that has insight into your own condition is malfunctioning, but is frequently misidentified as “denial”) as well as a self-centered arrogance and rudeness. Because serious mental illness generally manifests in younger people, before the frontal cortex is fully developed, the mentally ill remain emotionally immature. They are INCREDIBLY annoying at times—and yes, can be prone to violence. Even if not violent, they deeply believe that it is OK for them to do whatever they want to others, but others have to accommodate them endlessly, otherwise they are being “persecuted”. They want to be treated as individuals, but don’t want to treat others as individuals. It’s more than annoying. And it’s not just a personality thing—this is extremely common in mental illness—part of what mental illness actually IS.
But we as a society have said they have rights and we can’t just lock them up in institutions against their will, simply because they are annoying (sometimes they aren’t violent or simply annoying, but they ARE infringing on others property. Not just trespassing, but getting into your car, your trash can, your garage, smashing your stuff because it’s an “alien transmitter” or whatever, etc). OK, that SOUNDS good, but basically that means we have dumped the problem into the hands of the police. The police are not doctors or scientists.
I don’t blame the seriously mentally ill for stopping taking their medications. They not only have wretched side effects, but they don’t really work, don’t make them productive members of society. And anosognosia makes them say “I’m not sick and I don’t need medicine”. But what about something, like say for example, shock. My father told me a story about one of his experiences in Vietnam as a medic, when his ambulance was mortared and the driver got his leg ripped off. He was in such deep shock (when it’s temporary it’s called shock, when it’s more permanent it’s called anosognosia) that he did not realize his leg was gone and he was angrily refusing treatment. He didn’t need treatment—he was fine! Except everyone around him could see this was absolutely not true. Would we not treat this man (who was later grateful to those who saved his life) against his will? I’m an EMT and firefighter—this is an important and pertinent question.
The other problem here is police authority run amok. A few years ago in Denver, the police were involved in a car chase. One of the cops ran over a pedestrian and killed him. The guy they were chasing (who of course was caught, and he was no good guy—he was a rapist who stole his latest rape victims car) was charged with the pedestrians murder. The “rationality” being the cops wouldn’t have hit the pedestrian if they weren’t chasing the bad guy, so it’s the bad guys fault. This is obviously ludicrous (and underscores the absolute importance of INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY—the responsibility inherent in all rights), but guess what? That’s right—he was convicted of murder. And the cop was absolved.
Welcome to the new Kristallnacht.
Debbie
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(Attachment image003.png is missing)
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The discussion loses the distinction between beating a harmless man to death and dealing with real threats.
In losing that distinction, we institute greater harms to solve lesser problems.
Crazy people are a pain in the ass. So what? Their symptoms are our insults and complications. Time to cowboy-up and deal with it, even if it takes some effort.
I volunteered at Jerry Jampolsky's institute for the children dying of terminal illness and their parents. It was an excellent exercise in perspective and the meaning of life.
The heinous beating and killing of the mentally ill, to accommodate social specifications has dragged our culture back centuries to the inquisition and witch hunts.
________________________________
From: Debbie Schum <smudgesticks@...>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:45 AM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comWell, it appears that the jury just believed the defense attorneys. Hey, the crazy guy said he couldn’t breathe, but he was yelling that, so obviously he could breathe. That’s what one of the jurors said afterwards—kind of misses the point of whether he deserved to be beaten to death, though, doesn’t it? Besides, he must’ve actually done something wrong or they wouldn’t have done this to him, right? (that way we can avoid the fear that it really could actually happen to any one of us for no reason)
All the right winger activists I know in my area (I live in rural western Colorado) yammer on and on about how we are becoming a socialist state—so they can avoid the reality that we already are and have been for a long time a socialist state.While I certainly don’t condone the beating to death of the mentally ill, this case brings up again the question of what we as a society actually do about it. This is not a shallow question for me—I just divorced, last June, a schizophrenic, after 17 years of marriage. It is easy to sympathize with someone who has cancer or a broken leg. Even Depression. But many mental illnesses (like bi-polar or schizophrenia or personality disorders) are difficult to sympathize with. The delusions are often accompanied by anosognosia (the part of the brain that has insight into your own condition is malfunctioning, but is frequently misidentified as “denial”) as well as a self-centered arrogance and rudeness. Because serious mental illness generally manifests in younger people, before the frontal cortex is fully developed, the mentally ill remain emotionally immature. They are INCREDIBLY annoying at times—and yes, can be prone to violence. Even if not
violent, they deeply believe that it is OK for them to do whatever they want to others, but others have to accommodate them endlessly, otherwise they are being “persecuted”. They want to be treated as individuals, but don’t want to treat others as individuals. It’s more than annoying. And it’s not just a personality thing—this is extremely common in mental illness—part of what mental illness actually IS.
But we as a society have said they have rights and we can’t just lock them up in institutions against their will, simply because they are annoying (sometimes they aren’t violent or simply annoying, but they ARE infringing on others property. Not just trespassing, but getting into your car, your trash can, your garage, smashing your stuff because it’s an “alien transmitter” or whatever, etc). OK, that SOUNDS good, but basically that means we have dumped the problem into the hands of the police. The police are not doctors or scientists.
I don’t blame the seriously mentally ill for stopping taking their medications. They not only have wretched side effects, but they don’t really work, don’t make them productive members of society. And anosognosia makes them say “I’m not sick and I don’t need medicine”. But what about something, like say for example, shock. My father told me a story about one of his experiences in Vietnam as a medic, when his ambulance was mortared and the driver got his leg ripped off. He was in such deep shock (when it’s temporary it’s called shock, when it’s more permanent it’s called anosognosia) that he did not realize his leg was gone and he was angrily refusing treatment. He didn’t need treatment—he was fine! Except everyone around him could see this was absolutely not true. Would we not treat this man (who was later grateful to those who saved his life) against his will? I’m an EMT and firefighter—this is an important and pertinent
question.
The other problem here is police authority run amok. A few years ago in Denver, the police were involved in a car chase. One of the cops ran over a pedestrian and killed him. The guy they were chasing (who of course was caught, and he was no good guy—he was a rapist who stole his latest rape victims car) was charged with the pedestrians murder. The “rationality” being the cops wouldn’t have hit the pedestrian if they weren’t chasing the bad guy, so it’s the bad guys fault. This is obviously ludicrous (and underscores the absolute importance of INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY—the responsibility inherent in all rights), but guess what? That’s right—he was convicted of murder. And the cop was absolved.
Welcome to the new Kristallnacht.
Debbie
From:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of javlin@ymail.com
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 8:05 AM
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comThe travesty is probably in the jury instructions that define what murder is. Holocausts are not seen as murders. They are considered legitimate operations by a society that perpetrated them.
We are no other society than that, as we continue to tolerate an inquisition of the mentally ill, users of drugs without blessings, and the non-coformist du jur.
The terrifying and lethal behavior of the police is frequently exonerated. And even when the people of Fullerton rose up to seek justice, they struggled alone as we went about our business.
We have been useless to them and there is no network by which we are anything else but enuchs for the imperial regime.
--- Sent with mail@metro, Real Life Real Time Mobile ---From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 1/16/2014 12:14 am
To: "LPSF Discussion List" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comDo you know if the judge or the jury saw the video? The video clearly showsthe officers to be guilty.Sam SloanOn Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 11:10 PM, Debbie Schum <smudgesticks@...>wrote:>>> And let that be a lesson to you---we are a nation of jailers. If you> resist the police you will be arrested. If you resist arrest you will be> beaten. If you resist a beating you will be shot.>> And obviously many of our fellow citizens think that is A-OK. They are> willing to acquit jack boot thugs for murder.> Debbie Schum>>>> *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com]> *On Behalf Of *John Bechtol> *Sent:* Monday, January 13, 2014 8:52 PM> *To:* lpsf-discuss> *Subject:* [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating> Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.com>>>>>> After their ritual torture, they roll the body around in the pool of blood> and discuss the situation while his brain dies from hypoxia.
They repeat> "He was on something. He was on something" as they continue about their> "police work".>>>> ----- Forwarded Message -----> *From:* John Bechtol <javlin@ymail.com>> *To:* "Freed-M@yahoogroups.com" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>> *Sent:*> *Subject:* Re: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly> Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.com>>>>>> The murder video is on this site. It's amazing to see how the officer can> hardly wait to start the beating, fidgeting with his baton.>> Meanwhile Kelly strands peacefully for awhile, in the face of this> hostility.>> http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/tag/kelly-thomas-beating/>>>>>> ------------------------------>> *From:* Nina Ortega <ortegan@...>> *To:* "Freed-M@yahoogroups.com" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>> *Sent:*> *Subject:* Re: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly> Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.com>>>>>> Why am I not surprised?>>>> Nina>>>> "The
state can only survive as long as a majority is programmed to> believe that theft isn't wrong if it's called taxation or asset> forfeiture or eminent domain, that assault and kidnapping isn't wrong if> it's called arrest, that mass murder isn't wrong if it's called war."> -Bill St. Clair->> *From:* Bill <yahoo@...>> *To:* Mensa Freed-M <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>> *Sent:* Monday, January 13, 2014 5:33 PM> *Subject:* [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas> Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.com>>>>>> "Two former police officers, Manuel Ramos and Jay Cicinelli, were found> not guilty this afternoon of all charges in the brutal beating death of> homeless man Kelly Thomas in Fullerton, California.> /The Los Angeles Times/ is live-blogging here.> UPDATE: Due to the verdict, the DA is dropping charges against a third> officer in the case.> Here is our coverage of the Kelly Thomas case and below is a Reason.tv> video
summarizing the events: ..."> http://reason.com/blog/2014/01/13/officers-in-the-beating-death-of-kelly-t> -->>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________________> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3156/?u=http://newsletter.adsonar.com/nwrss/iMapRedirector?placementId=1560786&plid=379054&pid=2070767&ps=36140222&rotation=4&type=2&pos=0&zw=500&zh=70&v=5&url=NA&uid=>[image:> Image removed by sender.]>>> >>> __________________________________________________________> *Do THIS before eating carbs (every time)*> 1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar & decrease fat> storage> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/52d785e482d495e31901st04vuc>> info.fixyourbloodsugar.com<http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/52d785e482d495e31901st04vuc>>
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I see no evidence from the video that this man was mentally ill. The only
thing he did that was unusual is that he refused to give them his name,
probably because there was a court case against him.
They found out his name when they opened his back pack and saw a letter
from an attorney.
The officer kept swinging his billy club at him in a threatening manner.
Finally, the kid got scared and tried to run away so they beat him up and
killed him.
What did he do that was crazy or different from what many others have would
done?
Sam Sloan .
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He was living in the streets.
In think we don't need to argue about whether he was murdered.
Instead let's argue about why we are powerless to do anything about it.
________________________________
From: Sam Sloan <samhsloan@...>
To: LPSF Discussion List <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comI see no evidence from the video that this man was mentally ill. The only thing he did that was unusual is that he refused to give them his name, probably because there was a court case against him.
They found out his name when they opened his back pack and saw a letter from an attorney.
The officer kept swinging his billy club at him in a threatening manner.
Finally, the kid got scared and tried to run away so they beat him up and killed him.
What did he do that was crazy or different from what many others have would done?
Sam Sloan .
The discussion loses the distinction between beating a harmless man to death and dealing with real threats.
In losing that distinction, we institute greater harms to solve lesser problems.
Crazy people are a pain in the ass. So what? Their symptoms are our insults and complications. Time to cowboy-up and deal with it, even if it takes some effort.
I volunteered at Jerry Jampolsky's institute for the children dying of terminal illness and their parents. It was an excellent exercise in perspective and the meaning of life.
The heinous beating and killing of the mentally ill, to accommodate social specifications has dragged our culture back centuries to the inquisition and witch hunts.
________________________________
From: Debbie Schum <smudgesticks@...>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:45 AM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comWell, it appears that the jury just believed the defense attorneys. Hey, the crazy guy said he couldn’t breathe, but he was yelling that, so obviously he could breathe. That’s what one of the jurors said afterwards—kind of misses the point of whether he deserved to be beaten to death, though, doesn’t it? Besides, he must’ve actually done something wrong or they wouldn’t have done this to him, right? (that way we can avoid the fear that it really could actually happen to any one of us for no reason)
All the right winger activists I know in my area (I live in rural western Colorado) yammer on and on about how we are becoming a socialist state—so they can avoid the reality that we already are and have been for a long time a socialist state.While I certainly don’t condone the beating to death of the mentally ill, this case brings up again the question of what we as a society actually do about it. This is not a shallow question for me—I just divorced, last June, a schizophrenic, after 17 years of marriage. It is easy to sympathize with someone who has cancer or a broken leg. Even Depression. But many mental illnesses (like bi-polar or schizophrenia or personality disorders) are difficult to sympathize with. The delusions are often accompanied by anosognosia (the part of the brain that has insight into your own condition is malfunctioning, but is frequently misidentified as “denial”) as well as a self-centered arrogance and rudeness. Because serious mental illness generally manifests in younger people, before the frontal cortex is fully developed, the mentally ill remain emotionally immature. They are INCREDIBLY annoying at times—and yes, can be prone to violence. Even if not
violent, they deeply believe that it is OK for them to do whatever they want to others, but others have to accommodate them endlessly, otherwise they are being “persecuted”. They want to be treated as individuals, but don’t want to treat others as individuals. It’s more than annoying. And it’s not just a personality thing—this is extremely common in mental illness—part of what mental illness actually IS.
But we as a society have said they have rights and we can’t just lock them up in institutions against their will, simply because they are annoying (sometimes they aren’t violent or simply annoying, but they ARE infringing on others property. Not just trespassing, but getting into your car, your trash can, your garage, smashing your stuff because it’s an “alien transmitter” or whatever, etc). OK, that SOUNDS good, but
basically that means we have dumped the problem into the hands of the police. The police are not doctors or scientists.
I don’t blame the seriously mentally ill for stopping taking their medications. They not only have wretched side effects, but they don’t really work, don’t make them productive members of society. And anosognosia makes them say “I’m not sick and I don’t need medicine”. But what about something, like say for example, shock. My father told me a story about one of his experiences in Vietnam as a medic, when his ambulance was mortared and the driver got his leg ripped off. He was in such deep shock (when it’s temporary it’s called shock, when it’s more permanent it’s called anosognosia) that he did not realize his leg was gone and he was angrily refusing treatment. He didn’t need treatment—he was fine! Except everyone around him could see this was absolutely not true. Would we not
treat this man (who was later grateful to those who saved his life) against his will? I’m an EMT and firefighter—this is an important and pertinent question.
The other problem here is police authority run amok. A few years ago in Denver, the police were involved in a car chase. One of the cops ran over a pedestrian and killed him. The guy they were chasing (who of course was caught, and he was no good guy—he was a rapist who stole his latest rape victims car) was charged with the pedestrians murder. The “rationality” being the cops wouldn’t have hit the pedestrian if they weren’t chasing the bad guy, so it’s the bad guys fault. This is obviously ludicrous (and underscores the absolute importance of INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY—the responsibility inherent in all rights), but guess what? That’s right—he was convicted of murder. And the cop was absolved.
Welcome to the new Kristallnacht.
Debbie
From:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of javlin@...
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 8:05 AM
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comThe travesty is probably in the jury instructions that define what murder is. Holocausts are not seen as murders. They are considered legitimate operations by a society that perpetrated them.
We are no other society than that, as we continue to tolerate an inquisition of the mentally ill, users of drugs without blessings, and the non-coformist du jur.
The terrifying and lethal behavior of the police is frequently exonerated. And even when the people of Fullerton rose up to seek justice, they struggled alone
as we went about our business.
We have been useless to them and there is no network by which we are anything else but enuchs for the imperial regime.
--- Sent with mail@metro, Real Life Real Time Mobile ---From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 1/16/2014 12:14 am
To: "LPSF Discussion List" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comDo you know if the judge or the jury saw the video? The video clearly showsthe officers to be guilty.Sam SloanOn Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 11:10 PM, Debbie Schum <smudgesticks@...>wrote:>>> And let that be a lesson to you---we are a nation of jailers. If you> resist the police you will be arrested. If you resist arrest you will be> beaten. If you resist a beating you will be shot.>> And obviously many of our fellow citizens think that is A-OK. They are> willing to acquit jack boot thugs for murder.> Debbie Schum>>>> *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com]> *On Behalf Of *John Bechtol> *Sent:* Monday, January 13, 2014 8:52 PM> *To:* lpsf-discuss> *Subject:* [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating> Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.com>>>>>> After their ritual torture, they roll the body around in the pool of blood> and discuss the situation while his brain dies from
hypoxia. They repeat> "He was on something. He was on something" as they continue about their> "police work".>>>> ----- Forwarded Message -----> *From:* John Bechtol <javlin@...>> *To:* "Freed-M@yahoogroups.com" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>> *Sent:*> *Subject:* Re: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly> Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.com>>>>>> The murder video is on this site. It's amazing to see how the officer can> hardly wait to start the beating, fidgeting with his baton.>> Meanwhile Kelly strands peacefully for awhile, in the face of this> hostility.>> http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/tag/kelly-thomas-beating/>>>>>> ------------------------------>> *From:* Nina Ortega <ortegan@...>> *To:* "Freed-M@yahoogroups.com" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>> *Sent:*> *Subject:* Re: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly> Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.com>>>>>> Why am I not surprised?>>>>
>>>> "The state can only survive as long as a majority is programmed to> believe that theft isn't wrong if it's called taxation or asset> forfeiture or eminent domain, that assault and kidnapping isn't wrong if> it's called arrest, that mass murder isn't wrong if it's called war."> -Bill St. Clair->> *From:* Bill <yahoo@allemanse.com>> *To:* Mensa Freed-M <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>> *Sent:* Monday, January 13, 2014 5:33 PM> *Subject:* [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas> Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.com>>>>>> "Two former police officers, Manuel Ramos and Jay Cicinelli, were found> not guilty this afternoon of all charges in the brutal beating death of> homeless man Kelly Thomas in Fullerton, California.> /The Los Angeles Times/ is live-blogging here.> UPDATE: Due to the verdict, the DA is dropping charges against a third> officer in the case.> Here is our coverage of the Kelly Thomas case and below is a Reason.tv>
video summarizing the events: ..."> http://reason.com/blog/2014/01/13/officers-in-the-beating-death-of-kelly-t> -->>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________________> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3156/?u=http://newsletter.adsonar.com/nwrss/iMapRedirector?placementId=1560786&plid=379054&pid=2070767&ps=36140222&rotation=4&type=2&pos=0&zw=500&zh=70&v=5&url=NA&uid=>[image:> Image removed by sender.]>>> >>> __________________________________________________________> *Do THIS before eating carbs (every time)*> 1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar & decrease fat> storage> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/52d785e482d495e31901st04vuc>> info.fixyourbloodsugar.com<http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/52d785e482d495e31901st04vuc>>
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Do a little more homework on the guy. He wasn’t exactly harmless. He had initiated violence several times against family members, which is how he came to be homeless. The reason the cops were even approaching him to begin with was because someone called the police on him because he was in the parking lot there trying to open the doors of all the cars.
This isn’t the movies where everything is black and white, purely good guys and purely bad guys. Last time I checked, breaking and entering wasn’t a capital crime, deserving of the death penalty, administered immediately by the police. Nor should it be.
But pretending that dumping the mentally ill into the laps of the police isn’t going to cause eruptions of violence (from both sides) is naive.
Nonetheless, the question remains—so what are we (as individuals, as a society) going to do about it? Watching videos of unjustified violence and tsk tsking about how wrong it is doesn’t change anything. If our system is too broken to repair itself 9which it is) then it is our responsibility to do something about it. So any ideas, anyone?
You don’t have to tell me to cowboy up when it comes to the mentally ill---like I said, I was married to a schizophrenic for 17 years. And met a whole bunch of other schizophrenics through a support group I made him attend and that I helped facilitate. Which ended up being an absolutely fruitless, pointless waste of time. You don’t correct biochemical imbalances by sitting in a koom-bye-ya circle talking about your feelings of rage towards society.
For those of you who have never had to deal with a serious mental illness like schizophrenia, then it looks pretty damned simple—send them to the mental health clinic for some “treatment”! Yeah, that’s where I started too. If you want me to recount the twisted outrageous journey I ended up on, I will, but only upon request. Suffice it to say that something called “orthomolecular” treatment (mega-vitamin therapy) works better than anything else available, but bio-chemical brain damage is still brain damage.
There is a limited amount of help available to the mentally ill (who may still go on to shoot up a movie theater filled with people he doesn’t even know but is furious with). But what about these out of control cops? Do we just say “they are out of control and wrong” and forget about it? Do we call the cops on the cops? What are we going to do about it?
Debbie
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His family came forward with his history of mental illness and diagnosis of
schizophrenia. He'd been taking medication and then stopped (again.
Predictable thing to do). And as I said earlier, they didn't just randomly
stop and start hassling him-someone called the cops on him because he was
breaking into cars. At the beginning of the video, he is telling the police
that he can't speak English-in English. But again-this isn't the point.
Getting beat to death is.
This is similar to an argument I had with a doctor friend about the war on
drugs. He told me "so what if some junkie breaks into your house and steals
money out of your purse to buy drugs?" (which is a stupid argument, but I
wanted to try to persuade him to reason) So I replied "oh, so if he broke
into my house and stole money out of my purse to put in the collection plate
at church it would be OK? What he was going to spend the stolen money on
isn't the point.stealing is"
Same thing here. The point isn't whether he was mentally ill or not (and I
believe he was-I've seen enough schizophrenia to recognize the chip on the
shoulder and the mannerisms), the point is police believing they have power
to do anything they want, the point is the invisible gun to our heads at all
times, the threat against our very lives if we (mentally ill or not) do not
submit to the power and control games of the police. And that they have good
reason to have this attitude. Because they will be absolved, given a pass.
The point being that we shouldn't go lighter on elected, appointed or hired
public officials, who have their hands in our pockets and guns to our
heads-we should hold them to a HIGHER degree of accountability than average
citizens, not a lesser one. I have to be accountable, but I don't have
access to your wallet (at the point of a gun) or authority to shoot you for
not doing what I say. So what's the answer here?
As far as I'm concerned, we have 2 pertinent things in this discussion, that
are different but at least distantly related-How do we reign in government
power abuse and what do we do about those members of society who-through no
intentional fault of their own-are so delusional that they want to bash your
head in with a hammer because they believe you are stealing their thoughts
(they often believe they are acting in self-defense, even though they
clearly are not)? No, I'm not saying Kelly Thomas was raving delusional.
That's not the point. But some people are. And they DO want to hurt you,
because they think you are hurting them. AND some police want to bash your
head in because they want to dominate you and others with you as an example.
Anybody here feel safe, secure and protected when you see a police officer?
I don't know ANYBODY who does-including a few cops! I feel apprehensive-not
necessarily scared of getting beaten to death, but scared I may be doing
something the police consider WRONG and I'm going to be in trouble. What are
we going to do about it?
Debbie
Behalf Of Sam Sloan
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How about if focus on what to do with people who aren't going to bash-in heads? They are the majority of these tragedies?
This first step is to make the distinction.
Then we take-away the money from the police and demand higher expectations for their performance
________________________________
From: Debbie Schum <smudgesticks@...>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 7:04 PM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comHis family came forward with his history of mental illness and diagnosis of schizophrenia. He’d been taking medication and then stopped (again. Predictable thing to do). And as I said earlier, they didn’t just randomly stop and start hassling him—someone called the cops on him because he was breaking into cars. At the beginning of the video, he is telling the police that he can’t speak English—in English. But again—this isn’t the point. Getting beat to death is.
This is similar to an argument I had with a doctor friend about the war on drugs. He told me “so what if some junkie breaks into your house and steals money out of your purse to buy drugs?” (which is a stupid argument, but I wanted to try to persuade him to reason) So I replied “oh, so if he broke into my house and stole money out of my purse to put in the collection plate at church it would be OK? What he was going to spend the stolen money on isn’t the point…stealing is”
Same thing here. The point isn’t whether he was mentally ill or not (and I believe he was—I’ve seen enough schizophrenia to recognize the chip on the shoulder and the mannerisms), the point is police believing they have power to do anything they want, the point is the invisible gun to our heads at all times, the threat against our very lives if we (mentally ill or not) do not submit to the power and control games of the police. And that they have good reason to have this attitude. Because they will be absolved, given a pass. The point being that we shouldn’t go lighter on elected, appointed or hired public officials, who have their hands in our pockets and guns to our heads—we should hold them to a HIGHER degree of accountability than average citizens, not a lesser one. I have to be accountable, but I don’t have access to your wallet (at the point of a gun) or authority to shoot you for not doing what I say. So what’s the answer here?
As far as I’m concerned, we have 2 pertinent things in this discussion, that are different but at least distantly related—How do we reign in government power abuse and what do we do about those members of society who—through no intentional fault of their own—are so delusional that they want to bash your head in with a hammer because they believe you are stealing their thoughts (they often believe they are acting in self-defense, even though they clearly are not)? No, I’m not saying Kelly Thomas was raving delusional. That’s not the point. But some people are. And they DO want to hurt you, because they think you are hurting them. AND some police want to bash your head in because they want to dominate you and others with you as an example.
Anybody here feel safe, secure and protected when you see a police officer? I don’t know ANYBODY who does—including a few cops! I feel apprehensive—not necessarily scared of getting beaten to death, but scared I may be doing something the police consider WRONG and I’m going to be in trouble. What are we going to do about it?
DebbieFrom:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam Sloan
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 2:18 PM
To: LPSF Discussion List
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comI see no evidence from the video that this man was mentally ill. The only thing he did that was unusual is that he refused to give them his name, probably because there was a court case against him.
They found out his name when they opened his back pack and saw a letter from an attorney.
The officer kept swinging his billy club at him in a threatening manner.
Finally, the kid got scared and tried to run away so they beat him up and killed him.
What did he do that was crazy or different from what many others have would done?
Sam Sloan .The discussion loses the distinction between beating a harmless man to death and dealing with real threats.
In losing that distinction, we institute greater harms to solve lesser problems.
Crazy people are a pain in the ass. So what? Their symptoms are our insults and complications. Time to cowboy-up and deal with it, even if it takes some effort.
I volunteered at Jerry Jampolsky's institute for the children dying of terminal illness and their parents. It was an excellent exercise in perspective and the meaning of life.
The heinous beating and killing of the mentally ill, to accommodate social specifications has dragged our culture back centuries to the inquisition and witch hunts.
________________________________
From:Debbie Schum <smudgesticks@...>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:45 AM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comWell, it appears that the jury just believed the defense attorneys. Hey, the crazy guy said he couldn’t breathe, but he was yelling that, so obviously he could breathe. That’s what one of the jurors said afterwards—kind of misses the point of whether he deserved to be beaten to death, though, doesn’t it? Besides, he must’ve actually done something wrong or they wouldn’t have done this to him, right? (that way we can avoid the fear that it really could actually happen to any one of us for no reason)
All the right winger activists I know in my area (I live in rural western Colorado) yammer on and on about how we are becoming a socialist state—so they can avoid the reality that we already are and have been for a long time a socialist state.
While I certainly don’t condone the beating to death of the mentally ill, this case brings up again the question of what we as a society actually do about it. This is not a shallow question for me—I just divorced, last June, a schizophrenic, after 17 years of marriage. It is easy to sympathize with someone who has cancer or a broken leg. Even Depression. But many mental illnesses (like bi-polar or schizophrenia or personality disorders) are difficult to sympathize with. The delusions are often accompanied by anosognosia (the part of the brain that has insight into your own condition is malfunctioning, but is frequently misidentified as “denial”) as well as a self-centered arrogance and rudeness. Because serious mental illness generally manifests in younger people, before the frontal cortex is fully developed, the mentally ill remain emotionally immature. They are INCREDIBLY annoying at times—and yes, can be prone to violence. Even if not
violent, they deeply believe that it is OK for them to do whatever they want to others, but others have to accommodate them endlessly, otherwise they are being “persecuted”. They want to be treated as individuals, but don’t want to treat others as individuals. It’s more than annoying. And it’s not just a personality thing—this is extremely common in mental illness—part of what mental illness actually IS.
But we as a society have said they have rights and we can’t just lock them up in institutions against their will, simply because they are annoying (sometimes they aren’t violent or simply annoying, but they ARE infringing on others property. Not just trespassing, but getting into your car, your trash can, your garage, smashing your stuff because it’s an “alien transmitter” or whatever, etc). OK, that SOUNDS good, but basically that means we have dumped the problem into the hands of the police. The police are not doctors or scientists.
I don’t blame the seriously mentally ill for stopping taking their medications. They not only have wretched side effects, but they don’t really work, don’t make them productive members of society. And anosognosia makes them say “I’m not sick and I don’t need medicine”. But what about something, like say for example, shock. My father told me a story about one of his experiences in Vietnam as a medic, when his ambulance was mortared and the driver got his leg ripped off. He was in such deep shock (when it’s temporary it’s called shock, when it’s more permanent it’s called anosognosia) that he did not realize his leg was gone and he was angrily refusing treatment. He didn’t need treatment—he was fine! Except everyone around him could see this was absolutely not true. Would we not treat this man (who was later grateful to those who saved his life) against his will? I’m an EMT and firefighter—this is an important and pertinent
question.
The other problem here is police authority run amok. A few years ago in Denver, the police were involved in a car chase. One of the cops ran over a pedestrian and killed him. The guy they were chasing (who of course was caught, and he was no good guy—he was a rapist who stole his latest rape victims car) was charged with the pedestrians murder. The “rationality” being the cops wouldn’t have hit the pedestrian if they weren’t chasing the bad guy, so it’s the bad guys fault. This is obviously ludicrous (and underscores the absolute importance of INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY—the responsibility inherent in all rights), but guess what? That’s right—he was convicted of murder. And the cop was absolved.
Welcome to the new Kristallnacht.
Debbie
From:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of javlin@...
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 8:05 AM
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comThe travesty is probably in the jury instructions that define what murder is. Holocausts are not seen as murders. They are considered legitimate operations by a society that perpetrated them.
We are no other society than that, as we continue to tolerate an inquisition of the mentally ill, users of drugs without blessings, and the non-coformist du jur.
The terrifying and lethal behavior of the police is frequently exonerated. And even when the people of Fullerton rose up to seek justice, they struggled alone as we went about our business.
We have been useless to them and there is no network by which we are anything else but enuchs for the imperial regime.
--- Sent with mail@metro, Real Life Real Time Mobile ---From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 1/16/2014 12:14 am
To: "LPSF Discussion List" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comDo you know if the judge or the jury saw the video? The video clearly showsthe officers to be guilty.Sam SloanOn Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 11:10 PM, Debbie Schum <smudgesticks@...>wrote:>>> And let that be a lesson to you---we are a nation of jailers. If you> resist the police you will be arrested. If you resist arrest you will be> beaten. If you resist a beating you will be shot.>> And obviously many of our fellow citizens think that is A-OK. They are> willing to acquit jack boot thugs for murder.> Debbie Schum>>>> *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com]> *On Behalf Of *John Bechtol> *Sent:* Monday, January 13, 2014 8:52 PM> *To:* lpsf-discuss> *Subject:* [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating> Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.com>>>>>> After their ritual torture, they roll the body around in the pool of blood> and discuss the situation while his brain dies from
hypoxia. They repeat> "He was on something. He was on something" as they continue about their> "police work".>>>> ----- Forwarded Message -----> *From:* John Bechtol <javlin@...>> *To:* "Freed-M@yahoogroups.com" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>> *Sent:*> *Subject:* Re: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly> Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.com>>>>>> The murder video is on this site. It's amazing to see how the officer can> hardly wait to start the beating, fidgeting with his baton.>> Meanwhile Kelly strands peacefully for awhile, in the face of this> hostility.>> http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/tag/kelly-thomas-beating/>>>>>> ------------------------------>> *From:* Nina Ortega <ortegan@yahoo.com>> *To:* "Freed-M@yahoogroups.com" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>> *Sent:*> *Subject:* Re: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly> Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.com>>>>>> Why am I not surprised?>>>>
>>>> "The state can only survive as long as a majority is programmed to> believe that theft isn't wrong if it's called taxation or asset> forfeiture or eminent domain, that assault and kidnapping isn't wrong if> it's called arrest, that mass murder isn't wrong if it's called war."> -Bill St. Clair->> *From:* Bill <yahoo@...>> *To:* Mensa Freed-M <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>> *Sent:* Monday, January 13, 2014 5:33 PM> *Subject:* [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas> Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.com>>>>>> "Two former police officers, Manuel Ramos and Jay Cicinelli, were found> not guilty this afternoon of all charges in the brutal beating death of> homeless man Kelly Thomas in Fullerton, California.> /The Los Angeles Times/ is live-blogging here.> UPDATE: Due to the verdict, the DA is dropping charges against a third> officer in the case.> Here is our coverage of the Kelly Thomas case and below is a Reason.tv>
video summarizing the events: ..."> http://reason.com/blog/2014/01/13/officers-in-the-beating-death-of-kelly-t> -->>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________________> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3156/?u=http://newsletter.adsonar.com/nwrss/iMapRedirector?placementId=1560786&plid=379054&pid=2070767&ps=36140222&rotation=4&type=2&pos=0&zw=500&zh=70&v=5&url=NA&uid=>[image:> Image removed by sender.]>>> >>> __________________________________________________________> *Do THIS before eating carbs (every time)*> 1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar & decrease fat> storage> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/52d785e482d495e31901st04vuc>> info.fixyourbloodsugar.com<http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/52d785e482d495e31901st04vuc>>
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Ok, fine. So how do we take away the money from the police? And there isn’t much point demanding higher expectations if we’re taking their money away…no one wants to be a slave and work for free….
How is requiring the ability to distinguish between head-bashers and not, related to being a slave and working for free?
It's about knowing the difference or getting fired.
It's about increasing performance or getting fired.
________________________________
From: Debbie Schum <smudgesticks@...>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 8:22 PM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comOk, fine. So how do we take away the money from the police? And there isn’t much point demanding higher expectations if we’re taking their money away…no one wants to be a slave and work for free….
From:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Bechtol
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 9:13 PM
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.com [8 Attachments]How about if focus on what to do with people who aren't going to bash-in heads? They are the majority of these tragedies?
This first step is to make the distinction.
Then we take-away the money from the police and demand higher expectations for their performance
________________________________
From:Debbie Schum <smudgesticks@...>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 7:04 PM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comHis family came forward with his history of mental illness and diagnosis of schizophrenia. He’d been taking medication and then stopped (again. Predictable thing to do). And as I said earlier, they didn’t just randomly stop and start hassling him—someone called the cops on him because he was breaking into cars. At the beginning of the video, he is telling the police that he can’t speak English—in English. But again—this isn’t the point. Getting beat to death is.
This is similar to an argument I had with a doctor friend about the war on drugs. He told me “so what if some junkie breaks into your house and steals money out of your purse to buy drugs?” (which is a stupid argument, but I wanted to try to persuade him to reason) So I replied “oh, so if he broke into my house and stole money out of my purse to put in the collection plate at church it would be OK? What he was going to spend the stolen money on isn’t the point…stealing is”
Same thing here. The point isn’t whether he was mentally ill or not (and I believe he was—I’ve seen enough schizophrenia to recognize the chip on the shoulder and the mannerisms), the point is police believing they have power to do anything they want, the point is the invisible gun to our heads at all times, the threat against our very lives if we (mentally ill or not) do not submit to the power and control games of the police. And that they have good reason to have this attitude. Because they will be absolved, given a pass. The point being that we shouldn’t go lighter on elected, appointed or hired public officials, who have their hands in our pockets and guns to our heads—we should hold them to a HIGHER degree of accountability than average citizens, not a lesser one. I have to be accountable, but I don’t have access to your wallet (at the point of a gun) or authority to shoot you for not doing what I say. So what’s the answer here?
As far as I’m concerned, we have 2 pertinent things in this discussion, that are different but at least distantly related—How do we reign in government power abuse and what do we do about those members of society who—through no intentional fault of their own—are so delusional that they want to bash your head in with a hammer because they believe you are stealing their thoughts (they often believe they are acting in self-defense, even though they clearly are not)? No, I’m not saying Kelly Thomas was raving delusional. That’s not the point. But some people are. And they DO want to hurt you, because they think you are hurting them. AND some police want to bash your head in because they want to dominate you and others with you as an example.
Anybody here feel safe, secure and protected when you see a police officer? I don’t know ANYBODY who does—including a few cops! I feel apprehensive—not necessarily scared of getting beaten to death, but scared I may be doing something the police consider WRONG and I’m going to be in trouble. What are we going to do about it?
DebbieFrom:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam Sloan
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 2:18 PM
To: LPSF Discussion List
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comI see no evidence from the video that this man was mentally ill. The only thing he did that was unusual is that he refused to give them his name, probably because there was a court case against him.
They found out his name when they opened his back pack and saw a letter from an attorney.
The officer kept swinging his billy club at him in a threatening manner.
Finally, the kid got scared and tried to run away so they beat him up and killed him.
What did he do that was crazy or different from what many others have would done?
Sam Sloan .The discussion loses the distinction between beating a harmless man to death and dealing with real threats.
In losing that distinction, we institute greater harms to solve lesser problems.
Crazy people are a pain in the ass. So what? Their symptoms are our insults and complications. Time to cowboy-up and deal with it, even if it takes some effort.
I volunteered at Jerry Jampolsky's institute for the children dying of terminal illness and their parents. It was an excellent exercise in perspective and the meaning of life.
The heinous beating and killing of the mentally ill, to accommodate social specifications has dragged our culture back centuries to the inquisition and witch hunts.
________________________________
From:Debbie Schum <smudgesticks@...>
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:45 AM
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comWell, it appears that the jury just believed the defense attorneys. Hey, the crazy guy said he couldn’t breathe, but he was yelling that, so obviously he could breathe. That’s what one of the jurors said afterwards—kind of misses the point of whether he deserved to be beaten to death, though, doesn’t it? Besides, he must’ve actually done something wrong or they wouldn’t have done this to him, right? (that way we can avoid the fear that it really could actually happen to any one of us for no reason)
All the right winger activists I know in my area (I live in rural western Colorado) yammer on and on about how we are becoming a socialist state—so they can avoid the reality that we already are and have been for a long time a socialist state.
While I certainly don’t condone the beating to death of the mentally ill, this case brings up again the question of what we as a society actually do about it. This is not a shallow question for me—I just divorced, last June, a schizophrenic, after 17 years of marriage. It is easy to sympathize with someone who has cancer or a broken leg. Even Depression. But many mental illnesses (like bi-polar or schizophrenia or personality disorders) are difficult to sympathize with. The delusions are often accompanied by anosognosia (the part of the brain that has insight into your own condition is malfunctioning, but is frequently misidentified as “denial”) as well as a self-centered arrogance and rudeness. Because serious mental illness generally manifests in younger people, before the frontal cortex is fully developed, the mentally ill remain emotionally immature. They are INCREDIBLY annoying at times—and yes, can be prone to violence. Even if not
violent, they deeply believe that it is OK for them to do whatever they want to others, but others have to accommodate them endlessly, otherwise they are being “persecuted”. They want to be treated as individuals, but don’t want to treat others as individuals. It’s more than annoying. And it’s not just a personality thing—this is extremely common in mental illness—part of what mental illness actually IS.
But we as a society have said they have rights and we can’t just lock them up in institutions against their will, simply because they are annoying (sometimes they aren’t violent or simply annoying, but they ARE infringing on others property. Not just trespassing, but getting into your car, your trash can, your garage, smashing your stuff because it’s an “alien transmitter” or whatever, etc). OK, that SOUNDS good, but basically that means we have dumped the problem into the hands of the police. The police are not doctors or scientists.
I don’t blame the seriously mentally ill for stopping taking their medications. They not only have wretched side effects, but they don’t really work, don’t make them productive members of society. And anosognosia makes them say “I’m not sick and I don’t need medicine”. But what about something, like say for example, shock. My father told me a story about one of his experiences in Vietnam as a medic, when his ambulance was mortared and the driver got his leg ripped off. He was in such deep shock (when it’s temporary it’s called shock, when it’s more permanent it’s called anosognosia) that he did not realize his leg was gone and he was angrily refusing treatment. He didn’t need treatment—he was fine! Except everyone around him could see this was absolutely not true. Would we not treat this man (who was later grateful to those who saved his life) against his will? I’m an EMT and firefighter—this is an important and pertinent
question.
The other problem here is police authority run amok. A few years ago in Denver, the police were involved in a car chase. One of the cops ran over a pedestrian and killed him. The guy they were chasing (who of course was caught, and he was no good guy—he was a rapist who stole his latest rape victims car) was charged with the pedestrians murder. The “rationality” being the cops wouldn’t have hit the pedestrian if they weren’t chasing the bad guy, so it’s the bad guys fault. This is obviously ludicrous (and underscores the absolute importance of INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY—the responsibility inherent in all rights), but guess what? That’s right—he was convicted of murder. And the cop was absolved.
Welcome to the new Kristallnacht.
Debbie
From:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of javlin@...
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 8:05 AM
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comThe travesty is probably in the jury instructions that define what murder is. Holocausts are not seen as murders. They are considered legitimate operations by a society that perpetrated them.
We are no other society than that, as we continue to tolerate an inquisition of the mentally ill, users of drugs without blessings, and the non-coformist du jur.
The terrifying and lethal behavior of the police is frequently exonerated. And even when the people of Fullerton rose up to seek justice, they struggled alone as we went about our business.
We have been useless to them and there is no network by which we are anything else but enuchs for the imperial regime.
--- Sent with mail@metro, Real Life Real Time Mobile ---From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 1/16/2014 12:14 am
To: "LPSF Discussion List" <lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.comDo you know if the judge or the jury saw the video? The video clearly showsthe officers to be guilty.Sam SloanOn Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 11:10 PM, Debbie Schum <smudgesticks@...>wrote:>>> And let that be a lesson to you---we are a nation of jailers. If you> resist the police you will be arrested. If you resist arrest you will be> beaten. If you resist a beating you will be shot.>> And obviously many of our fellow citizens think that is A-OK. They are> willing to acquit jack boot thugs for murder.> Debbie Schum>>>> *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com]> *On Behalf Of *John Bechtol> *Sent:* Monday, January 13, 2014 8:52 PM> *To:* lpsf-discuss> *Subject:* [lpsf-discuss] Fw: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating> Death of Kelly Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.com>>>>>> After their ritual torture, they roll the body around in the pool of blood> and discuss the situation while his brain dies from
hypoxia. They repeat> "He was on something. He was on something" as they continue about their> "police work".>>>> ----- Forwarded Message -----> *From:* John Bechtol <javlin@...>> *To:* "Freed-M@yahoogroups.com" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>> *Sent:*> *Subject:* Re: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly> Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.com>>>>>> The murder video is on this site. It's amazing to see how the officer can> hardly wait to start the beating, fidgeting with his baton.>> Meanwhile Kelly strands peacefully for awhile, in the face of this> hostility.>> http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/tag/kelly-thomas-beating/>>>>>> ------------------------------>> *From:* Nina Ortega <ortegan@...>> *To:* "Freed-M@yahoogroups.com" <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>> *Sent:*> *Subject:* Re: [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly> Thomas Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.com>>>>>> Why am I not surprised?>>>>
>>>> "The state can only survive as long as a majority is programmed to> believe that theft isn't wrong if it's called taxation or asset> forfeiture or eminent domain, that assault and kidnapping isn't wrong if> it's called arrest, that mass murder isn't wrong if it's called war."> -Bill St. Clair->> *From:* Bill <yahoo@...>> *To:* Mensa Freed-M <Freed-M@yahoogroups.com>> *Sent:* Monday, January 13, 2014 5:33 PM> *Subject:* [Freed-M] Officers in the Brutal Beating Death of Kelly Thomas> Found Not Guilty - Hit & Run : Reason.com>>>>>> "Two former police officers, Manuel Ramos and Jay Cicinelli, were found> not guilty this afternoon of all charges in the brutal beating death of> homeless man Kelly Thomas in Fullerton, California.> /The Los Angeles Times/ is live-blogging here.> UPDATE: Due to the verdict, the DA is dropping charges against a third> officer in the case.> Here is our coverage of the Kelly Thomas case and below is a Reason.tv>
video summarizing the events: ..."> http://reason.com/blog/2014/01/13/officers-in-the-beating-death-of-kelly-t> -->>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________________> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3156/?u=http://newsletter.adsonar.com/nwrss/iMapRedirector?placementId=1560786&plid=379054&pid=2070767&ps=36140222&rotation=4&type=2&pos=0&zw=500&zh=70&v=5&url=NA&uid=>[image:> Image removed by sender.]>>> >>> __________________________________________________________> *Do THIS before eating carbs (every time)*> 1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar & decrease fat> storage> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/52d785e482d495e31901st04vuc>> info.fixyourbloodsugar.com<http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/52d785e482d495e31901st04vuc>>
You just said take the money away from the police. I thought you meant all police. But this still doesn’t answer the question…how do we take the money away from the head bashers? And how do we know who the head bashers are until after they bash heads? Manuel Ramos, the cop who beat Kelly Thomas head in resigned. Is that good enough? Not to me it isn’t.
Let them figure out how. Meanwhile give the agency the 50% or less, they deserve. If they don't figure it out give them less.
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Who is “them”? As in “let ‘them’ figure out how”.
Here’s a little story from my corner of the world, to explain, summarized down for brevity:
A few years back, I was involved with a group of people (Republicans, Democrats, independents, Libertarians) called Resource Association of Delta County. Our mission was to bring a halt to blatant economic corruption in our county. Our county commissioners were involved in overt illegal transfers of taxpayer funds (to put it briefly, and to get on with the point, not the details of the crimes). We amassed all our evidence, the specific state statutes broken, and our affidavits. We took them to the district 7 district attorneys office and filed the neat little package. We had called a press conference for the same time as we were dropping off the paperwork, but not one single print or video reporter showed up. Not one. Fine—we delivered our paperwork anyway. The D.A., a man named Thomas Reins, was surly and skeptical. He told us it would take him several weeks to get back to us (according to state statutes, the laws broken by our commissioners called for immediate removal from office). After 2 months when we hadn’t heard from him, we began to pester him. He avoided us. Finally, we caught up with him and he said he didn’t see a problem and wasn’t going to proceed. Look, the evidence we accumulated was iron tight—budgets obtained from the courthouse with the illegal transfers clearly outlined in the budget. We even copied the statutes from the CRS that explicitly forbidded these transfers. It wasn’t sketchy at all. Anything sketchy that we didn’t have enough information on, we left out, and just went for the clear cut unassailable stuff. And there was plenty of it.
OK, so we weren’t deterred—we found another statute that said we could drag the D.A. before a judge and have the judge review the evidence and decide whether to order the D.A. to proceed with prosecution. That’s what we did. In the meantime, the D.A. left and another one took his place, maintaining the same stance as Thomas Reins had (side note: this new D.A. was later convicted of rape and forcing women in his office to provide sexual favors in exchange for keeping their jobs. He spent less than 30 days in jail). The judge reviewed our evidence, said he certainly saw reason to proceed—but that he wasn’t going to step on the D.A.s toes, that it was the D.A.s call and he wasn’t going to order him to proceed.
Now we were getting angry. We called the state attorney generals office, explained our dilemma and said we wanted help. We were told a deputy attorney general would call within 36 hours. And one did. One by the name of Thomas Reins. Essentially, we called Thomas Reins on Thomas Reins. We asked for a different ADA and were told he was the ADA for our area and we would have to work with him.
Still undeterred (but growing discouraged) we called the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. They said this wasn’t within their purview. We called the United states attorney general, who said this wasn’t a federal issue and we would have to call our state attorney general (back to Thomas Reins, yeah—right). We went everywhere we could think of. Nothing, nada, zip, zilch.
Next, we decided to recall the county commissioners. We were given false information about recall elections from the county clerks office. We studied the recall statutes ourselves and got back on track. Next, we were investigated by the department of revenue to see if we were properly filing our issue committee paperwork as an issue committee. We weren’t an issue committee, we were a recall committee. By the time we cleared ourselves in this BS “investigation” the tiny window of time allowed for collecting signatures (20% of the number of votes cast in the last election for this office—difficult to achieve in 60 days in a rural area with no press co-operation) had passed and we had just barely enough signatures. Anybody who has ever been involved in signature gathering can tell you that you have to collect 50% more signatures than needed because the clerk will throw out as many signatures as possible. We submitted the petitions anyway, and the clerk threw out about 50% of them, nullifying our recall election. The media only reported the commissioners side of things, and the clerks tearful interview about how we were frivolously trying to waste money on an unnecessary election. We challenged the clerks ruling on the signatures, which wasted a bunch more time and got us further and further from our original issue. The SoS backed the county clerk ruling 4 hours after we filed our challenge.
So now what? Go after the Sec of State? Like I said, we were getting further and further from our original mission. And still not making any progress—just hitting the wall of blind loyalty to corruption. The good ol’ boys club. It went all the way up the ladder. We accomplished absolutely nothing in the end. Our county commissioners used taxpayer money to make real estate loans to their friends to buy property in an illegal subdivision illegally seized by the county. Those “loans” were never repaid. The commissioners waived property taxes on the lots. They illegally transferred funds from the general account to road and bridge funds (illegal according to state statutes—those funds must remain distinctly separate) in order to pave roads and driveways for these proud new lot owners. They made taxpayers pay for water taps to the lots—taps that cost anyone else $10,000 to $20,000. They paid a lawyer friend of theirs—who also just happened to get “loans” for 6 of the lots in the subdivision—upwards of $600,000 to do “research” into the subdivision—funds of which could be traced but “research” of which could not. This is just the bare bones of the illegal activity that happened (and could be easily proved) surrounding this subdivision. It involved millions of dollars in a county of (at the time) less than 25,000 farmers, ranchers and poor people. We had copies of letters, budgets, checks, tax waivers, everything we needed to clearly spell out the non-stop thievery of money that happened—obtained mostly from the courthouse itself! And we got ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE.
When the most culpable of the commissioners left office, he told the newspapers he felt his “crowning achievement” in his 8 years as commissioner had been the La Habra subdivision project. UNBELIEVABLE cojones on this guy! Then he ran for US Congress. Lost that race and ran for state senate. Continues running for office until he will eventually find another niche.
I’m the chair of my county LP. The clerk’s office turned me in to the SoS for failure to file county political party paperwork on time ($50 per day fine, the claim was we were 3 weeks late, we have about $800 in our coffers). I had to drive 300 miles to Denver to a hearing to show that the clerk was trying to require us to file as a STATE political party, not a county party. Yes, I won this round, was able to prove all our filings were correct and on time, but it cost me time and money I didn’t have. When I got back home, the clerk reported me to the SoS again, saying we had forged one of their stamps to stamp our filings. Again, a trip to Denver for a hearing, which cleared us.
I wanted to sell a portion of my property to my brother. The county commissioners turned down my “subdivision of property” application. But not before requiring a health department inspection of my property, saying they heard from the sheriff’s office that I was composting dead animals on my property. Which of course, I was not.
I could continue, but perhaps you are beginning to understand my point? And understand why I am pounding the point of HOW are we going to accomplish this lofty and noble goal of reigning in the police state?
I’m still up for the battle. The rest of the group I worked with (RADCo) dissipated and went back home to fight their frivolous battles against the county (since the county has tax money to wage these bullying battles, we are not only fighting our own money, but our personal resources are limited, the county’s are not). They don’t want this battle anymore. They are scared. And I don’t blame them. So am I.
Here’s what we learned—we were sorely mistaken to believe the “system” was corrupt, but the judicial branch is not and that they would do their job properly if they were only told about the egregious corruptions that were going on that they had somehow failed to notice. What we learned was the other branches of government CAN’T be corrupt if the judicial branch is not. But if the corrupt judicial branch protects the other corrupt branches, then WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT??? I’m in a small rural county in the middle of nowhere. Don’t you think I understand this gets worse when you get into heavily populated areas, with more money and more power? When it’s not millions of dollars anymore, but BILLIONS? How about at the federal level? I also learned that “official” people who appear to be helping you will lie right to your face. If you don’t know the law yourself, they sure as shit aren’t going to help you. Later, they can claim they made an honest mistake. A mistake that just happened to favor them and their cronies. You have to read the law yourself. Yes, it’s long and it’s boring. On purpose—so you will feel “unqualified” and in over your head. And when you read it yourself, you don’t just have this vague knowledge of ‘corruption” going on—you see the specifics—which are MUCH more numerous and prolific than you thought.
Calling for reform is a joke. That means you want someone else to do it for you. Trying to CREATE reform through the proper channels is dangerous and a colossal waste of time. The “proper channels” are as broken as the rest of it.
So, let me ask my question once again: WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? Who wants to join me in the trenches instead of on the soap box?
Debbie
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The agencies. They think they are immortal too. It's a good thing to abolish them for cause.
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Are you in contact with the folks in the various counties, looking for self-governance/home rule?
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